"The West Wing" has irrevocably jumped the shark

[OldLeftieLawyer]

Toby's breaking down right now, he just had a fistfight with Josh, and the show is utterly without merit.

I could break down, but I'm tougher than Toby.

Oh, this is just awful.

[UrbScotty]

1. Needs to be moved to the Lounge (nt)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. Thanks

I so rarely start threads. So, thank you.

[pres2032]

2. he broke down because of his brother

I'd break down too. He acted his heart out.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Yeah, I know that

But it's not acting. It's maudlin pandering to show Toby's "vulnerability," and it has nothing to do with whatever the hell the story line is supposed to be.

The show's been floundering this whole season. Without Martin Sheen, it's all over the place.

[pres2032]

6. it's been building the entire series

Toby's been the most loyal member of Bartlet's staff and he's seeing everything he's ever worked for fall apart around him. Imagine what's going through his head.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

8. I understand

But where's the story?

[pres2032]

9. why can't that be the story?

the west wing became a great show because it made us care about the characters. so why can't we have an episode about one of the more beloved charaters of the show?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

20. I respectfully disagree

It was a great show because it humanized the governmental process. There was a HUGE amount of substantive information in the early shows, and the characters were the vehicles upon which that information was delivered.

Now, there's no substance. It might as well be some mid-level soap opera.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

24. Best review I ever read...

about "The West Wing" was where the writer called the show "a valentine to public service." The first few seasons were written by Aaron Sorkin, who is as close to Shakespeare as we're going to get in our lifetime. The show couldn't help but go downhill from there.

[Merope215]

48. I agree

Sorkin's unbelievable. The dialogue was so snappy, too. The mushrooms probably didn't hurt, either. :P

[ticapnews]

52. To me it was a key part of the story...

In Toby's mind Josh = David (his deceased NASA hero brother)

David gave up when facing cancer and left his family behind. Josh has been like a brother and he gave up the White House and left Toby behind. When he is talking to CJ he isn't so much talking about David as he is about Josh. When Toby says, "He just dropped everything and walked away" he is not just talking about David leaving, but its when he complained to Josh about the stuff Josh was working on when he left.

He wanted his brother to fight the cancer. He wanted Josh to stay and fight the battles he has to now face alone in the remaining few months. I thought this was a great episode (except for the inexplicable Kate Harper arc...what the Cheney was THAT all about?)

The West Wing is doing much better this season than I was expecting. It's hard to transition a story like this. They've had some rough spots, but it's still one of the three remaining shows I make a point to watch each week.

[DrGonzoLives]

4. Well, obviously

if you say it, it must be right :eyes:

Christ, it's still better than just about anything on TV. If you all think you can do better, slap a pilot together and pitch it to someone.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

7. Well...........

long ago, when I was young and foolish, I wrote for a show called "Miami Vice." Then a bunch of failed shows. Then I followed Dick Wolf when he left Michael Mann's outfit and wrote for a show called "Law and Order" for its first two years.

But now I just write novels. The published kind.

How's that?

[JimmyJazz]

10. Yeah, but what credentials do you have to critique a *political* show.....

:silly: - just kidding! That's cool - very cool, and I agree with you - the show has jumped the shark. First of all, isn't it the longest running democratic administration - Evah?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

13. You know what I want?

I want Martin Sheen as President.

[JimmyJazz]

14. Yeah, but for the next 10 - 12 years????

[lavenderdiva]

12. way, way cool OldLeftieLawyer!

I must ask you this: what do you think about the profusion of 'Law and Order' series that are on now? It seems they are on almost all the time on almost every channel. Perhaps, from your point of view, that could be a good thing; I hope you are getting residuals!!!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

16. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah, I got a check a while back for $35. I am FLUSH!

I think Dick Wolf tapped a motherlode, and, while I'm always going to be a fan, I think it's getting stretched dangerously thin, relying far too much (in my opinion), on current events.

The original Law and Order was conceptual, as was Miami Vice. That meant we sat down for our first story meeting and talked about what the driving philosophy would be behind the show - for instance, there was a MV in which Don Johnson accidentally shot a little boy in a shadowy house situation.

That was the show in which Crockett (Johnson) was revealed to have a son of his own, a boy he'd not seen for a long, long time.

That show was about redemption, believe it or not. A far cry from how the Law and Order series have gone, don't you think?

That show also had a whore named after me in it. (Writers get to do that.) As I was watching the filming in Miami, I mentioned to a cast member that I had gone from being a white Washington lady lawyer to a black Miami lady whore, to which he replied, "Good career move."

I'm rambling. Sorry.

[dsc]

19. I used to watch both shows

Now I just watch Law and Order. You would probably know this. Did Moriarty get fired for criticising the crackdown on Hollywood?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

25. I love that guy

He spoke out against Janet Reno and got blasted for it. I think he got the rawest of deals, but he walked headfirst into the dawn of Political Correctness, and it was verboten to speak out against a Democratic administration, and, especially, the first woman Attorney General.

I left when Mike left, because they were ditching some great actors so as to get a more PC mix. That's when the captain morphed from a white guy (Dann Florek) to a black woman, and the Assistant DA was henceforth always to be a pretty white woman.

Michael was the heart of that show, I really believed it. He and Chris Noth and George Dzundza. When they left, I decided to find a whole new way to whore. So I became a novelist.

Last I heard about Michael was that he was in very bad physical shape, having drunk himself almost dead. A tragic waste of a brilliant talent.

[dsc]

28. that is an honest shame

I am close to five years sober now but was quite the drinker while he was on your show. I don't have close to the talent he does. I saw him on a USA miniseries last year and he looked pretty bad. I figured the drinking stuff I had heard about was likely true. BTW at least Florek landed on his feet he was a total hoot on LA Law.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

35. Stay dry, pal

The world needs more from you.

Yeah, Dann's a very nice guy.

[dsc]

40. Thanks

I definately intend to.

[Boswells_Johnson]

43. I don't know what he got fired for, but he lived in Halifax for a while

and made quite a reputation for being an egomaniac and a drunkard. He got kiecked out of bars for trying to fight, and, if I'm not mistaken, was investigated on spousal abuse charges.

[lavenderdiva]

23. You have me laughing out loud!

Thanks for sharing that story! By the way, my husband is watching Law & Order as we speak! What type of books do you write nowadays?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

26. Novels

The kind in the front of the store. They're called "literary" and, occasionally, "dangerous."

[yvr girl]

21. Shouldn't you be OldLeftieWriter

Of course you could have done both. You might be in reality a ReallyReallyOldLeftieLawyer/Writer.

I'm a big fan of Law and Order, BTW.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

41. That's some monicker...........

OldLeftieLawyer scans better, don't you think?

Besides, no one pays any attention to writers.

Ever hear the joke about the Polish starlet who wanted to get ahead in Hollywood?

She was so dumb, she slept with a writer.

Yeah, I know. Terribly un-PC, but you should hear the raunchy version ............... :evilgrin:

[yvr girl]

49. I'm quickly gaining a reputation as being a shit-disturber so

Why should I bother being PC.

BTW, Moriarty spends a lot of time in Vancouver. I saw him at an event a number of years ago, and he looked terrible. But I saw him on the local news a few months ago and he looked much better.

[mark414]

32. ohhh slam!

haha

[OldLeftieLawyer]

18. Incidentally, there are a few really terrific new shows

Check out "House" on the Fox Network (!) on Tuesdays at 9 pm. It's the most remarkable TV I've seen in years.

Also, "Medium" on Mondays on NBC at 10 pm. Terrific show, courtesy of the same guy who came up with "Moonlighting."

And there's "Without A Trace," on CBS on Thursday nights at 10, which has some of the most exquisite writing and acting - all without getting maudlin and smarmy.

[JimmyJazz]

22. I like Cold Case, too - it's in a very bad time slot and I always forget

that it's on, but I do enjoy that show everytime I watch it. One time, right before the election they had a major Bush dig. The cop was talking to a potential suspect and said, "so, you're a former drug addict who went AWOL - wow, you could be president one day." - classic in my book.

[lavenderdiva]

31. 'Medium' is my new favorite show on TV...

Haven't even heard of 'House'-- What's it about? I do enjoy 'Without A Trace', and used to watch it more, but my hubby doesn't really enjoy it. Good thing we have more than 1 TV.. I find 'Medium' to be a new original idea, with really good writing. Something different. So far, the stories have been interesting. Heard they got picked up for another season, is this true?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

37. "House"

On Fox, of all places.

Check it out here - http://www.fox.com/house/

Click on "Features" and then click on "House-isms." The actor playing Gregory House, MD is a guy named Hugh Laurie, a British comedy actor. He is brilliant. The perfect anti-hero with total attitude. I love him. I love it.

Yeah, I heard "Medium" was picked up for another twelve. "House" just had four more ordered, so that's good, too.

You'll love "House." I guarantee it.

[lavenderdiva]

46. Thanks for the 'House' link... I checked it out and will look for it

next Tuesday at 8pmCST! Sounds good.

[Sydnie]

44. I agree about House and Medium

I caught House quite by accident one night and I was hooked from that moment.

I saw the ads for Medium and just love the subject matter so I made it a point to see the first one. They are good but I wonder just how far they can take it without some major twists to keep it interesting. I will continue to watch it though!

I think I caught part of Without a Trace once, but I must not be around when it's on that often. I will have to try to catch it again on your recommendation.

I wasn't a great MV fan, sorry to say. I do, however, love Law and Order, especially the SVU spinoff. I will watch the new one too, Trial by Jury, and see how it stacks up.

It's a pleasure to converse with you. You have done some good work!

Drop the name of a novel if you feel comfortable doing so. I would be interested in checking out your other work too.

[tjdee]

11. Jumped it awhile back, I thought....

Can't remember when I started thinking that, but I don't even watch now to find out when Josh and Donna are going to get together.

[mattclearing]

15. I believe it was last season, when Josh stood outside the Capitol...

...at night, and screamed, "YOU WANT A PIECE O' ME?????"

I just started laughing uncontrollably. I remember thinking, "Who on the Sorkin-replacement committee thought that retarded display was a good idea?"

There have been a few decent episodes since then, but I can't take it seriously anymore.

[dsc]

17. It has been all over the map lately

but this episode actually was pretty decent in my opinion. It was last weeks which I found baffling. I hope the find a good President out of this and get back their groove.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

27. Alan Alda's gonna show up

I'm hoping that's going to focus the show. I don't want it to die. Not now.

[dsc]

29. He would be a good addition

What a year for Alda his first Oscar nomination and now a good shot at reviving a great show.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

38. Ever hear the story.............

...........about Alan Alda meeting Donald Sutherland for the first time?

Sutherland played Hawkeye Pierce, don't forget, in the movie version of "MASH."

Alda was introduced to Sutherland, and he simply said, "Thank you for my life."

Elegant man, no?

[dsc]

45. I hadn't

Alda comes across as a real nice guy it is good to hear he really is.

[lavenderdiva]

33. Is this a spoiler?

I watched West Wing tonight and they said there were 6 more episodes... Do I need to keep watching?

ps. I do think this would be really great for the show if Alda did win...

[chieftain]

30. The fist fight was dumb , I agree and

the show has lost its compass . But the scene at the cocktail party when Will and the woman ( I haven't been watching religiously so I don't know who she is ) was priceless . I used to be an aide to an officeholder in Florida and that need to be silent , not talked to but appearing to be in rapt conversation was dead on . Also the background music was great ( Skylark by Paul Desmond , I think ) . At any rate , that 1 moment was worth watching and shows that WW still delivers real windows on the political life even if far less often than in the early days.

[Huckebein the Raven]

36. I think that was "Take 5" by Dave Brubeck (sp ?)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

39. Yep n/t

[chieftain]

50. I think you are right . My knowledge of even popularized jazz

is limited . But it was perfect for the scene . Thanks for the info .

[Radical Activist]

34. It reminds me of what happens

when someone major jumps ship on a Presidential campaign. Maybe not fistfights but it can be emotional, friendships are strained and egos are bruised.
This was the first time I've watched in a while. At least I was entertained.

[madison2000]

42. I can't believe they give Josh and Donna some time in the closet

but no action. Aren't they supposed to be Democrats? Why are these characters so repressed?!?!?!?!

[Borgnine]

47. Tonight's episode was the best all season.

The show jumped when Sorkin left. I tune in every week out of habit and hoping it'll be a better Wells-era episode, and I was really entertained by tonight's episode. It was great seeing the whole cast together instead of the ridiculous "split schedule" they've been doing for the last few weeks.

[kodi]

51. "All is change; all yields its place and goes"

Greek fella, long time ago.

WW is still better than most anything on the tube.

but it has strayed away from examine government by using a cast of characters now to examining characters against a backdrop of government.

Watched a WW show earlier today from season 1-2 where Bartlett does not stay an execution and ends with him having his confession said at midnight in the oval office. so much better writing and depth (and Karl Malden as a catholic priest too with the authority of an old testament prophet..."God sent you a Jew, a Quaker and a priest, not to mention his only Son, what more of a sign do you need?"

Some powerful stuff there.

[DaveinMD]

53. I think this season has been good

last week was great. I think last season sucked and this season has been good.

[LizW]

54. West Wing/Miami Vice trivia:

Gary Cole and Jimmy Smits lost out on the roles of Crockett and Tubbs to Don Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas. Smits got the role of Crockett's dead partner instead.

Now Cole and Smits are running against each other for the Democratic Presidential nomination! :D

As for tonight's West Wing, I liked it. I thought it was about time for Toby to break down. He's wound so tight it's scary.

I like an episode that's able to put one over on me. I thought Mel Harris was playing a hooker until the end! LOL!