Oh, and by the way, Apple computer fans can bite me

[WilliamPitt]

I've been a PC slave for a while now, and always felt looked-down-upon by Mac users. Well, I've been stuck using a Mac for the last two days in Berlin, and friends, you can keep these obnoxious pieces of crap. Mac sucks ass, period. User-friendly? I LOL in your general direction. This thing is junk.

[Systematic Chaos]

1. They are good for some things... BUT

I used to know someone a couple of years ago who got a new Mac and did everything he could to convince me to buy one. Well, I didn't. Instead I bought a "bargain basement" PC from some dorky company in California that I ended up having to rebuild TWICE, and it's given me a boatload of grief until this last rebuild, but I wouldn't trade it in for a Mac no matter what. The software support just isn't there, and that's the most important thing to me. I gotta have my games!

[arwalden]

78. Not That I Illegally COPY Software Or Anything Like That...

But 99.9% of my friends have PC's and they will let me borrow their software to see if it's something I want to buy.

-- Allen

[bpilgrim]

134. ---------------------------------------------- XvsXP.com

http://XvsXP.com

get the low-down ;-)

peace

[Maple]

2. LOL Why aren't you

in bed? You need SOME sleep to keep up that schedule!

[prolesunited]

3. Bite me back!

:hi:
You'll have to pry my Mac from my cold, dead hands.

Hope you're enjoying your trip. Get some sleep.

[SmileyBoy]

4. You're preaching to the choir, Will!!!

I've owned both PC's and Macs. I wouldn't trade my PC for anything else. The freakin' Macs always crashed on me.

[Don_G]

5. Berlin?

You can keep both the PC's and Apples....

I'll take the beer anytime and discuss with friends...but never over a dart-board.

Bawwwahhhaaaaaa!

[maggrwaggr]

6. where would you like to get bit first?

because if you knew how to use a MAC, you'd never go back.

You're probably trying too hard. It's easy .....

[Ediacara]

8. you know I've heard that...

"once you go _________ you'll never go back" about a wide variety of stuff, and it just isn't true....

[Ediacara]

7. Macs are pretty, but...

They really are designed poorly, and very user unfriendly.

The most egregious offense? The fact that buttons become inactive if they're not on the top most window. You can still see them, they're still there, but clicking them only brings that lower window to the top, and you have to click them again.....

Mac apostles claim that's to reduce accidental clickings, but come on...... I'm not a monkey, I have quite a bit of dexterity in my hands, if I want to click a button on a lower window, I'll freaking click it, and if I don't, I won't!

[Atman]

15. Do you still use Windows 3.1 on your PC?

Then stop basing your complaints about Macs on ancient versions of the Mac OS.

>>""The fact that buttons become inactive if they're not on the top most window. You can still see them, they're still there, but clicking them only brings that lower window to the top, and you have to click them again....."


OSX has been out for a long time; Try an upgrade.

[Ediacara]

20. every mac I have ever used, up to and including this week

have had that feature.

[Atlant]

61. You two are arguing about different features.

You two are arguing about different features.

IIRC,

In MacOS/X, the "Window" control buttons (Close, Minimize, Maximize)
can certainly be operated without bringing the target window "frontmost".
That is, as you mouse around on the screen, various windows' Window
Control buttons will highlight and you can activate them. I believe
this is a change from MacOS/9 and previous versions.

However...

In all versions of the MacOS to date, you can not operate the individual
controls WITHIN A WINDOW (including scroll bars and the like)
unless the window is frontmost or first brought frontmost.

Personally, as a user of systems where this is not true (such as Unix/
CDE/Motif), I think the Mac approach is a "feature" and not a bug.

Atlant

[Paschall]

34. You may have quite a bit of dexterity in your hands...

...but not everybody does. Think ergonomics for the handicapped; they use computers, too.

[madaboutharry]

9. why do Macs suck?

Looking into getting a new computer, what is it about Macs that some people don't like? Seriously, what is the downside?

[prolesunited]

13. There is none.

Buy a Mac. :D

[HuckleB]

18. Well, if you have the latest Mac OS, you're a few years ahead...

compared to PC operating systems. I guess some people don't like that.

[paradisiac]

35. macs suck because

the mouse only has one button!

Usually when people proclaim macs suckey it's for a silly reason like that. It seems to me most of the criticism from Wintel people usually comes down to this: "macs suck because they're different than Windows". And oftentimes they'll just start making stuff up, like the person who said UI elements (buttons?) don't work on windows that aren't key (you can see for yourself this is untrue if you go to an Apple Store and play with a mac OSX machine -- upon mouse over the buttons in window titles light up on all windows).

As far as the dreaded one button mac mouse conundrum goes, you can buy a $20 Logitech scroll mouse and plug it right in, the drivers are built into OSX.

Each OS has it's strengths and weaknesses compared to the others; here's a big article that compares Win XP vs. Linux vs. MacOSX,
http://thetechnozone.com/smartbuyersguide/OS_Shootout-2003.htm

[jmowreader]

136. Well, buy another damn mouse if you don't like Apple's!

I have owned a lot of PCs. The first thing I always do, the second I buy them, is throw the shitty mouse they give you in the trash where it belongs and put on one I like.

I like the one button mouse because for my mousing it's more comfortable. You know the standard two-button mouse hold...index finger on the left button, middle finger on the right. When I hold a mouse like that, my hand and wrist hurt after about thirty seconds. With a one-button mouse, my index finger sits where the right button would, and I can mouse all day long if I want, no pain at all.

And talk about maligned rodents: I happen to like the old round Apple mouse! It's all in the grip--if the mouse is in your palm, you're holding it wrong. Hold it between your fingertips and you'll be fine.

[alfredo]

108. Not as many games.

Not as much software in stores. Much of it is downloads or mail order. Major software like Office and creative software well represented.

Upside, what software you get is going to be top quality. A small market doesn't support shovelware.

Upside, access to the thousands of UNIX titles.

Upside, with VPC, you can run windows.

Upside, high quality hardware, designed for ease of use and upgrade.

Music, photography, and video software included much better than what is offered on PC's.

No nag ware installed by Apple, unlike software on PC's

Real plug and play, drivers included.

Can't remember the last time it crashed. I believe it crashed last in early 2002.

virus free since 1995.

[Atman]

10. I'm no choirboy

Wow, two whole days and Will's got the Mac all figured out, huh?

If you haven't used an OSX machine, you haven't used a Mac. It just doesn't crash. If it was an OSX machine, the simplicity probably just baffled you. Windows users are used to needing three of four clicks to do tasks that take one click on a Mac.

One thing is for sure...like discussing Bush, you either love him or hate him. But I guarantee, Chimpy wouldn't be able to figure out either of them! And this thread is likely to be a long one.

[Ediacara]

12. uh, I think you have the numbers of clicks reversed

three or four clicks on a mac compared to just one for a PC...

[prolesunited]

14. I would like to hear

some examples of that.

[Atman]

17. No reversal re: clicks

I have Windows 2000 Pro on my Mac, as well as OSX. I use both. I know.

[Piltdown13]

91. Just doesn't crash? Hmmm...

Just yesterday I was working on one of the eMacs in our lab. For no apparent reason, it just hung on me -- not during any computation either; all I had done was click to bring the window I wanted back to the top. I tried everything I could find to get the thing running again (force relaunch, restart, logout...) and nothing worked. Finally had to turn the thing off and on again. Of course, I guess "hanging" isn't the same as "crashing," but I admit I was surprised -- I had so few windows open that even Windows would have had no problem.

I do like OSX better than the previous versions of Mac operating systems; I have to admit, though, I really don't see that much difference from Windows XP, at least for the tasks that I'm usually working on. I know I'll be glad for the Macs when I start working with the image-heavy part of my dissertation, but I haven't noticed much difference for any other tasks. (The best thing about the lab having gotten the eMacs is that we're finally phasing out our old NeXT based system -- talk about unstable!)

[FlemingsGhost]

11. You're a writer, use a typewriter.

By the way, this post was written on a Mac.

[Robb]

47. Yeah! One of my editors told me

...she didn't exactly trust writers who wrote on PCs. :evilgrin:

[HuckleB]

16. Right back at ya!

I've had to use non-Macs at work and school for ten years, and it drives me bats. Ugh. Got no use for them. Besides, in this age of Internet transactions and viruses, Mac is way ahead in terms of security. A mac without added virus protection is safer than a non-Mac with the most up-to-date security system. That's about all I need to know right now.

[Atman]

19. Virus? What's that?

Oh, you mean those things Windows users get?

And no, it is not because no one wants to write viruses for Macs. There is just no point...the OS will not run an .exe or any other type of file, no matter what it is, without admin allowing it. How MS gets away with this massive security hole without getting their butts sued off is beyond me.

Oh, I get the same e-mail viruses everyone else gets. They just show up in the e-mail as generic icons. Because Macs won't run 'em.

[JVS]

25. "I am writing a virus to bring down .5% of the computers in the USA"

Is a phrase that nobody would ever speak. That is the reason Macs are safe from viruses. It isn't that they are better, it's that they don't even register as a target.

[Atman]

27. .5% has nothing to do with it.

Nothing at all.

Listen closely...the Mac OS will not execute calls without admin approval. It has nothing to do with market share. It has to do with the operating system itself. Windows just has so many ways for people to get in, it is ridiculous.

[lefty_mcduff]

38. Works for me

Count me among the poor, ignored, non-registering targets of viruses, worms, spam zombie software, spyware, thiefware, etc. I used both in my day-to-day (graphic design) and can honestly say that PCs suck monkey ass. Besides, most of the 'windows' operating system is a blatant rip-off from the Mac OS (the subject of a lawsuit and subdequent out of court settlement between MS and Apple) so let's be real.

Always amazes me to listen to people defend a buggy, security hole ridden OS.

I could care less (with my secure, non-crashing - but less than 5% of the market share Mac), but why do you put up with it?

[mmm]

21. God, I hate that phrase!

[HuckleB]

22. Right back at ya!

Er, good for you.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

29. For all the crap that Windows and Outlook recieve

I have yet to get infected with a virus and I use both. And yes, I have received my share of emails containing viruses but strangly enough, they never infected me. Huh, it must be that I take a few common sense precautions (well, given that so many people do get hit by them maybe it isn't so common).

And how do you justify that a mac is safer than any non-mac, given the similarity between Linux and OSX...and Linux even runs on a PC.

[Old and In the Way]

39. Funny, me too..................I keep hearing about the horrors, but never

have a problem.

I love my XP Pro/XP Office.....tight integration and trouble free.

Glad to see a Pro-PC thread.....it's about time! I've used Macs, but I'd never go back....

[DrGonzoLives]

53. Neither have I

I keep wondering about the people that these horror stories come from - do they just open every single thing that comes into their mailbox?

And, ever since I got XP, I have had absolutely 0 crashes.

[Atman]

65. People are dumb. Their computers shouldn't be.

"do they just open every single thing that comes into their mailbox?"

It shouldn't be the consumer's problem. Would you buy a car that veered of the road if you took one hand off the steering wheel, and just say, "Well, I always just keep both hands on the wheel." ?

I agree with you...people are dumb when it comes to opening mail with attachments. But, MS knows this. Everyone knows this. So, why hasn't MS addressed the issue? Apple has. If I didn't say it before, I will say it now. I got something called a wdef virus back with Mac OS 6, I believe. Non-lethal, just a mailbox clogger. Immediately Apple built protection against this virus into the OS, and issued an upgrade. I have never had a virus since. That was in 1989 or 90 maybe.

How many viruses have your various incarnations of Window been hit with?

[GAspnes]

23. sorry, Mac

Will, you're a good writer, but you know shit about computers.

It's like any other thing -- get out of your area of specialization and you're an idiot.

Macs are good. PC's are good. There is no "best". Build a bridge and get over it.

[ReadTomPaine]

24. LOL - Looking to start a religious war, eh?

I like 'em all.

[Ladyhawk]

26. You can bite me as well.

Bill Gates' sad-ass operating systems may be the only thing keeping me from starving once I get well enough to fix some PCs around here.

[Art_from_Ark]

37. You have job security

Fixing sad-ass PCs is one job that is both in big demand AND won't be outsourced to India!
:hi:

[Leftist78]

28. Switched about a year ago

and the only thing I could say while using the mac for the first time was; "why didn't I do this sooner?" To each his own I guess. Anyway, you're in Berlin have a beer and get over your PC snobbery. :beer: By the way BITE ME!!!! :evilgrin:

[wickerwoman]

30. Mac users are like Canadians-

we don't set out to be smug. It just works out that way.

I can still use software on OS X that came out ten years ago while my friends and parents have to rebuy everything every two or three years. My PC at work crashes literally 100 times for every time my Mac at home crashes. You just got a crappy internet cafe Mac- not a fair trial.

Plus Al Gore works there. 'Nuff said.

Macs are more liberal.

[olmy]

31. The museum of Apple, PC individuals need not enter

Apples suck, they really, really do suck. First explain to me if there is in anything in any of the graphic programs for Apple, that are not on PC. Seems to me PC's work just as well as Apples with any graphic program. Is there a secret code you have to insert?

Apples can't run Autocadd. Oh, but there is "Virtual PC" that I can get...just what I need, and Apple that thinks it's a PC.

The new Apple store in Phoenix looks like a museum, all the slick machines lined up waiting for someone to buy them so they can spotlight it with halogen light in their living room. The showroom is complete with the slacker sales guy with the grunge look that shows disgust when you tell him you have a PC. The only real purpose for the majority of these sorry machines is being admired for their design, usually shown sans all the electrical cords, and the ocassional email.

It used to be they were better, not now. I have a Sony that is a rocket ship.

[Atlant]

49. Umm, that's AutoCAD®

> Apples can't run Autocadd

Umm, that's AutoCAD®.

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/home?siteID=123112&id=129446

And, interestingly enough, AutoDesk has announced (is announcing?)
an AutoCAD viewer for the Mac as they investigate re-supporting the
platfrom. Apparently, with the good buzz around MacOS/X and the fact
that it has Unix underpinnings, once again supporting AutoCAD on the
Mac platfrom is starting to sound attractive. And yes, in the meantime,
it runs fine in VirtualPC.


> usually shown sans all the electrical cords,

Your Apple store must be different than my local Apple stores; in my
local stores, the only cords missing are the network cables, because
all the machines are running AirPort (WiFi, IEEE802.11G 54 Mb/s
wireless networking), just like in my house!

Atlant

[Awsi Dooger]

32. I noticed you lacked either the guts or the competence

To describe the machine you are pitifully condemning. Likewise the operating system. Perhaps someone from a nearby kindergarten can explain there was a minor alteration between OS 9 and OS X.

Oh, I forgot, PC users are remarkably baffled by trivia such as type of OS or how to make minor adjustments for personal use. Please, Bill, just a button and no more than 10 crashes per day!

If you are using a pre-Quadra with some version of OS 6, then it will suck ass in '03, especially on the internet.

I use Macs at home, and quench my need for frustrated outbursts in dealing with PCs at the businesses I consult. There are more violent action games for PCs. Otherwise, it's about as competitive as the number of Red Sox and Yankee world championships.

Quite by hysterical accident, you lanced your own argument within 5 words of your opening sentence. Check out the posts of Mac users, here or elsewhere. No one feels like a slave. There are runaway usages of one positive description after another, oldtimers and newcomers alike. I suppose we should merely dismiss them as looney, brainwashed simpletons, like the people who prefer baseball to football.

But I agree, two days is formidable sample. Call me Ishmael. Worst short book I ever read.

[WilliamPitt]

46. "lacked either the guts or the competence"

Bite me, tough guy. It was 6am in Berlin after another long night. Macs suck ass. I think so even more now, because of you. :)

[DS1]

51. You're not allowed to rent here anymore....

YEAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

A Clerks quote seemed so fitting.

We're using Macs at school, OS9, and boy, do they SUCK ASS!!!

The only thing Macs have going for them is a lot of fonts built-in. Photoshop isn't any faster either.

[Atman]

56. Sheesh

"We're using Macs at school, OS9,"

Are you still bitching about Windows 95, too?

[DS1]

69. sheesh?

Let's not get our number of years in a fog here :eyes:

[Don_G]

33. As Long As We Are 5000 Plus Miles Apart

You can mail me your dentures and I'll get a friend to oblige.

[REP]

36. Ha Ha!

Poor boy! Can't get the Mac OS!

That's okay. When I was forced to use that stinking pile of crap called Windows NT, I became convinced the NT is for "Not Today."

[Norton]

40. If Bill Gates built airplanes... would you fly in one?

Of course not.
PC users hate MACs the way Harley riders hate Japanese "rice-burners".

[REP]

41. You're Saying They Prefer Outmoded Technology?

And the cumbersome Windoze OS appeals to their nostalgia for banging rocks together?

[Kellanved]

42. Yep

Nothing against Macs, but they're overhyped IMHO. They're not perfect (nor are they unusable), and they do not make everything better than a certain PC OS.

And although I've posted this several times already: the Mac video:
http://www.thehoucks.com/happynowhere/Apple_Switch_Parody_DivX.avi

by
http://www.happynowhere.net/mac_parody.htm

[Nlighten1]

43. LOL!

The truth hurts. Macs are no better than PCs period. I have worked as a consultant for years now and supporting a Mac that is having problems is NO EASIER than working on a PC with problems. They all break sooner or later.

bleh

[VOX]

44. Will, I thought you were a uniter, not a divider!

My wife's a graphic artist, and she's *gotta* use a Mac, it just goes with the territory...

:toast:

[HornBuckler]

45. I'll Tell Ya Why MACs Suck!

Simple - Software!

There Is A HUGE Lack Of Good Software On The MAC - Yeah, They ARE Good Machines, But If You Want To Enjoy The Finer Things In Life (Video Games) Then What The Hell Would You Want A MAC For?

[Atlant]

50. You're right. If you're buying a computer solely to run games, ...

You're right: If you're buying a computer solely to run games,
you should definitely buy a PC.

On the other hand, if you're buying a computer to help you get
your work done, then...

Atlant

[MrsMatt]

138. What's with computer games?

I think they are a complete waste of time and money, once you get to a certain age (the only computer games we have are educational games for our daughter). But then I never appreciated video games either.

On edit: I have a Mac OsX at home and a PC running on XP at work and I hate my PC.

[Atlant]

140. Don't ask me; I've never seen the appeal of "first-person shootem-up"

Don't ask me; I've never seen the appeal of "first-person shootem-up" games.
Maybe someone else can explain this.

Atlant

[dwckabal]

170. of course

if you are only running games on a PC, you might want to consider a machine built specifically FOR games, such as Playstation, X-Box or GameCube. Much cheaper.

[emulatorloo]

48. Some questions and thoughts for you, Will.

First, sorry, I am discriminating in my ass biting, so I will politely decline your offer. ;-)

The most important thing for you is to use the platform that works for you. If that is a MS OS, good for you!

Now, as to your post. My guess is your are:

1. Not using a modern mac (g3 500 or better) with adequate ram.
2. Not using a modern version of Mac OS (9.2 Classic or OS X 10.2, preferably OS X)
3. Using an older version of MS Word -- one of the versions, I think Word 6(?), 7(?) was very very poorly written for the Mac, and was a big scandal at the time it was released for its poor performance. You want Word 98 or better if you like Word.
3. Trying too hard to make it like Windows. It isn't, it is simpler.

And besides that, as Atman says, it is true that you can't make a decision after 2 days.

I have used both platforms on an almost daily basis since 1996. I prefer the Mac platform. Most people who use both extensively feel the same way. I am able to get more work done on my Mac than I can on my PC.

IT professionals who *genuinely* know both platforms tend to prefer Macs because less thing do go wrong with them.

The people I know who have switched from Windows to Mac have all expressed to me, "Why did I wait so long to do this?"

The people I know who dumped macs (forced by their employer, or one their own) around Windows 98 are buying Macs again w OS X and loving it.

Myths:

1 People don't write viruses for Macs because there are so few Macs out there -- (first of all there are more macs out there than the what is presumed by those who make that statement.) No, it is because it is harder to do. Mac OS X is built on Unix, which is all about security. It is not open to the kind of manipulation that can be done by a high school student to windows OS's. This is not to say that a virus can't be written for a UNIX based os, but it is going to require serious skills to do so.

2. There isn't any software for Macs. It is true that there are some highly specialized business packages that are Windows only. There are fewer games than there are for Windows (although the biggies like quake, UT, are there, and the folks at ID are very big on OS X). Other than that, there is pretty much anything you need out there. And the apps usually just work better. My game solution has been to get a PS2- I'd rather lay on the sofa anyway playing games.

Political Content
MS's driving motivation is dominance and monopoly. While they pay lip service to the needs of the user, they will do whatever it takes to control any market that they can. They don't test their software adequately so they can rush it to market. They buy up and destroy companies. They use highly suspect practices to put other companies out of business. A case in point is a current lawsuit against MS brought by Burst.com

Read this column by Cringely; MS behaves like a certain administration I know:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030828.html


But as I said, use whatever works for you. And don't insult Mac Users, it isn't nice.

PS love your writing, keep up the good work.

[trof]

52. What do you have against Apple computer fans?

I don't get it????

[DrGonzoLives]

54. Man

It always amazes me when a Mac thread comes up - the Mac-defenders just come out in force and mercilessly flame and insult anyone who does not 100% agree with them. Cult, anyone?

[Atman]

55. MAN...you should lay of the crack pipe

"the Mac-defenders just come out in force and mercilessly flame and insult anyone who does not 100% agree with them. Cult, anyone?"


Did you see how this thread started?

"I've been a PC slave for a while now, and always felt looked-down-upon by Mac users. Well, I've been stuck using a Mac for the last two days in Berlin, and friends, you can keep these obnoxious pieces of crap. Mac sucks ass, period. User-friendly? I LOL in your general direction. This thing is junk."

Yeah...we just jump right in and start flaming. Yeah. Sure.

[DrGonzoLives]

63. And you, apparently

are so completely defined by what computer you use, that you just can't stand someone saying something bad about your Mac. You really need to get out more.

[indigo32]

57. Actually

I have no love of macs...
but he did title the thread "Bite Me" LOL


:hi: Will
Have a beer for me

[Seneca]

58. heretic!

I love it. I have had XP since it came out with ZERO problems. I used someone's OSX a few weeks ago and it crashed and burned over and over... finally had to call Apple's tech support. Their solution? Reboot endlessly until the problem goes away. :eyes:

Bill Gates is truly evil. He has given billions of dollars worldwide for AIDS research, and billions more for childhood immunization. Steve Jobs? An egomaniacal twit and pathological jerk. Apple is his cult, and don't you dare mock his creation! Don't like Gates's business practices? Hey, it's nothing personal, it's business. :evilgrin:

What I find funny is how the Mac-cultists are falling all over themselves defending the OSX, while tacitly admitting that their past systems were faulty. "Well! *sputter* Maybe those Macs were less than perfect, but you haven't *sputter* tried the OSX!"

I have, and it sucked. For more than 2 days.

Macs are the Fisher-Price of computers.

Please wait while your artwork is loading....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Atman]

60. I simply don't believe you

" I used someone's OSX a few weeks ago and it crashed and burned over and over... finally had to call Apple's tech support. Their solution? Reboot endlessly until the problem goes away. "

You're leaving something out. On purpose, I'm sure!

[Seneca]

62. nope

It happened. I really had no problems with Macs, the scant few times I have used them. Always hated that damn artwork loading crap, and that precious little smiley computer icon, the latter being more of an aesthetic matter.

But I am not making what happened to me up. Your insistence that you don't believe me kind of falls into my whole "cult" mindset argument though. :-(

[Atman]

64. Well, there you have it...

" Always hated that damn artwork loading crap, and that precious little smiley computer icon,"

You weren't using OSX.

There is no smiley face in OSX. So, you weren't being honest. And, I don't even know what the "artwork loading" crap is you mention. Using Macs since 1987, I have never seen a message like this.

As I said...I don't believe your initial post, and your follow-up only reinforced my suspicion.

Do you still complain about 8-tracks, or have you upgraded to CD/DVD's yet?

[mark0rama]

66. "artwork loading"??

Also a Mac user since the mid-80's, I've never seen any "artwork loading" message on any Mac I've ever used.

Oh, wait, yes I have, when I was running AOL. Everytime I launched the AOL client, it made me wait while it downloaded "artwork".

I can see where someone, if they didn't comprehend the difference between an operating system and an application, could make such a mistake.

[prolesunited]

68. And if they didn't know the difference

between an operating system and an application, how much stock would you put in their opinion? :shrug:

As opposed to some on this thread who have not used or worked with Macs in a long time or at any length, I can work in both a PC and a Mac environment. I have both systems at home and have loaded software, networked them and switched out peripherals on both platforms and find the Mac much easier.

Some examples, for the PC, I had to locate an IP address and change system configurations for networking. For the Mac, I plugged the network cable into the wall outlet and was done. For my digital camera, I had to load software and mess with settings. For my Mac, I just plugged it into the USB port, it recognized my camera and launched iPhoto. I also have a .mac account and can download photos, edit them and publish them on the Web in about five minutes.

If you look at any of the instructions that come with dual-platform peripherals, there is almost a 2-to-1 ratio on instructions for setting it up. Why is that?

[mark0rama]

76. I've got an eMac and a Pentium III side by side on my desk at home.

The Mac gets used about 85-90% of the time.

The P3 gets used primarily for Sound Forge (if only they'd develop for the Mac), Quicken Home & Business, and to test Web page designs.

Bottom line, as always: Use what you like, like what you use. I've made my decision.

[emulatorloo]

80. Check out Bias Peak, Spark, and DSP Quattro

Hello mark0rama:

Don't know how you are using Sound Forge, but here are some nice sound editors for Mac OS:

Bias Peak
http://www.bias-inc.com/

Spark XL
http://www.tcelectronic.com/SparkXL

DSP Quattro
http://www.i3net.it/Products/dspQuattro/Asp/Index_EN.asp?Language=EN

They all offer trial downloads.

Bias and Spark come in several versions -- all the way from a "Pro" version to an "LE" version. Spark even has a free version called "ME"

Regards,
Greg

OnEdit edited post title cuz I forgot one of the names!

[mark0rama]

93. thanks, emulatorloo

Much appreciated!

[Billy Burnett]

120. Core audio, audio units, and core MIDI

Core audio, audio units, and core MIDI, plus Firewire make Mac OS 10.2+ and a new Mac a dream come true when it comes to timing accuracy and absoloute sync between hardware and multiple software modules.


PCs are notorious for IRQ/slot/audio and MIDI chipset compatibility problems with certain hardware drivers/plug-ins etc., but are more affordable (potentially).


I use both new Macs and new PCs, I like both. For serious audio/video applications the new Macs are a wee bit tighter, timing wise.

[underpants]

59. What exactly does this have to do with the Kobe case?

What exactly does this have to do with the Kobe case?

And why is your attention tuned to anything else?

[Not a robought]

67. Are the waters warm enough yet?

I guess it's time for me to jump in.

Having done high end graphical and effects work for motion picture and television, I've used all variety of hardware and operating systems including PC's, Macs, SGIs, Windows, OS9, OSX, Unix, Irix and Linux.

I don't hate one over the other, I use the appropriate tool for what suits the purpose. To say one is generally better than another is also generally BS.

For a long time, Apple had the best design applications cornered while software companies producing lower versions for Windows 3.1 or Windows 95 to test it out.

Microsoft then started buying some of these design software manufacturer companies to port the code over to Windows and prove that PC hardware and Windows were fully capable of doing anything you could on the MAC, which was proven correct.

A few years later, Apple are now playing the same tactic. There is a piece of software called Shake which has grown in popularity for doing to motion picture what Photoshop has done for still pictures. Originally the software was designed for PC but now that Apple has bought the software, it is being ported to the MAC EXCLUSIVELY, leaving PC users of the software out in the cold.

Every variant of computer and operating system has its pros and cons. For example as coolio as iBooks are, they can run very hot and people have complained of burning their laps. Meanwhile my Windows laptop goes through a litany of virus attacks -- but I have McAfee viruscan so I suffer nothing from it.

While XP and OS X do crash almost never, they still DO crash on a blue moon if the stars line up incorrectly. Nonetheless, my most recent computer purchase was a second windows XP laptop. All of my software is for windows, I'm not lacking anything or any features I would find on a Mac. I know if I want to upgrade the PC, I have a variety of manufacturers from which I can pick and choose hardware pieces - unlike Apple who tend to build islands from which I know I have to replace the entire thing in a couple of years.

So by going PC instead of MAC with my laptop purchase, I got a faster comparable computer for a thousand bucks less which I simply couldn't justify spending had I gone Mac. How would you justify it?

[Atlant]

72. Justifications:

1. Similarly-configured Mac and PC laptops are NOT "a thousand
bucks" different in price. Bought from "name-brands", they are quite
similarly priced. I know; I've bought several Mac laptops in the last
few months.

2. You offered the "can't upgrade" canard. Aside from the built-in
video, there is essentially nothing inside a Macintosh that can't be
upgraded using essentially the same parts as a PC. My Macintosh
PowerBook/G3 started life with 64MB of RAM and an 8GB hard drive.
It now houses 512MB and an 80GB hard drive as well as FireWire
(IEEE-1394), USB, and IEEE-802.11b ("WiFi") wireless networking.
I still use the original 300 MHz processor card, but if I wanted,
faster processor daughter cards are also available.

Our PowerMac/G4 has gone through a similar evolution, growing from
256MB to 1.25GB and 27GB to something over 200GB with dual screens
and wireless networking.

3. You speak of no virus problems because you run the latest
anti-virus software. Did that not cost you anything? Is the time that
you spend updating the anti-virus software worth nothing? In my
mostly Mac and Sun home, we don't run anti-virus software; these two
operating systems are inherently more resistant to viruses than
Windows.

4. You mention iBooks running hot. This complaint has been lodged
against the modern metal-enclosed PowerBooks, but not against the
plastic-enclosed iBooks. In fact, the 14" iBook is quite efficient
with its power; at its announcement, it posted the longest run-time
of any full-featured laptop.

Atlant

[Not a robought]

82. responses

1. It was for me. I just recently was contemplating an iBook for my most recent purchase but when compared to a similar configuration in a PC laptop, there WAS a thousand dollar difference. That was MY shopping experience. The one difference I can see (if I can actually take for granted somehow that a 900 mHz iBook is somehow as fast or faster than a 1.6mHz Athlon :eyes: ) was the PC had a DVD reader/CD-RW instead of the DVD-RW in the iBook. The latest base model iBook without WiFi is offered here in Toronto for $2250. This Averatec I just picked up I got with WiFi for $1299. I can't see justification switching to OS X and software and a DVD writer for $1000 in the hardware.

2. That's an impressive hardware upgrade for a laptop. You running OS X on it? Zzzzzzz, heheh. I have a blue case G3 and my sister who uses it mainly can't figure out why it takes forever to boot up along with some other mystery problems it's picked up somehow. I was contemplating loading OS X on it but was told by exclusively MAC people that it wasn't worth the time unless we got a G4. Lo and behold thus, we must abandon the island for new hardware.

3. Yes the time it takes to update is worth nothing. The anti-virus software cost me $30 and it updates itself in the background.

4. Your right but so was I, I often mistakenly refer to that small powerbook as the iBook. Nevertheless the problem remains. Ironic isn't it. The newer model with the heat problem is also the much more expensive unit.

[emulatorloo]

86. Hello Nota -- troubleshooting your blue and white

There are great troubleshooting documents at http://www.info.apple.com/

Please try that resource.

If you do decide to go to OS X, I have a blue and white that I run OS X on and it is just fine. The new "Panther" OS X will run on it too. Just make sure that you have at least 384 megs of RAM.

If you stick with OS 9, be sure and get OS 9.1 or 9.2. The updators are at the Apple site.

[Not a robought]

90. That's good to know

It currently has 9.2.2 and is slow as hell with 128 megs. I may just upgrade the blue and white's ram then and get OS X for it.

[Atlant]

88. Zzzzz???

> That's an impressive hardware upgrade for a laptop. You running OS X on it? Zzzzzzz, heheh

Actually, it "feels" faster running OS/X than it did when it was
last running (I think) 9.2.2. I'd imagine this is mostly the fact
that the Unix underpinnings allow the machine to multi-task better
and utilize the disk bandwidth more efficiently (given Unix's
aggressive disk caching). Also, I'm sure its physical memory is
much more efficiently used in the Unix environmentthan it was in
MacOS/9.

There's absolutely nothing "sleepy" about this machine.

On the other hand, my new 1.25GHz PowerBook is decidedly faster. :-)
But it has even more RAM (1GB) and a 5400 RPM, 80GB disk drive.


> This Averatec I just picked up I got with WiFi for $1299

Sorry, I thought we were comparing name-brands to name-brands.
And identical configurations to identical configurations. But
if we're not, then "Nevermind!".

Atlant

[BigMcLargehuge]

109. as for point 2

I had long bootup problems too with my G3 tower (Blue and white 400 mHz)... but I solved it. In OS 9 go to hardrive/ library/servers and empty out the folder. Whenever OS 9 is networked it creates aliases whenever other networked machines aren't turned on. When it boots it tries to connect to all of these aliases before completing boot up.

Empty the folder and it goes away.

As for OS X on that machine, I have it installed and it runs just fine. So, while getting a new machine would be nice, a G3 400 with OSX and at least 390 Megs or RAM will get your sister through virtually EVERY non-powerhouse application, and even some powerhouse ones.

I currently run Illustrator, Flash 4, Photoshop 5, and all the iApps with NO problems on that same machine.

[Atlant]

111. I believe there's a preference that controls that.

With regard to reconnecting to servers, I believe that there's a
preference that controls whether the Mac attempts to reconnect
to all the mounted servers upon boot-up; I never ran with that
preference setting enabled.

I'm sorry, but I don't have OS/9 up so I can't be more specific.

Atlant

[Not a robought]

85. Something else about your point #2 I just remembered

Sure you can upgrade peripherals but there are less manufacturers thus variations of models (i.e. that WiFi card had to have been an Apple) that you can choose from for that upgrade - less choice meaning you're probably getting most of your stuff from Apple.

[Atlant]

89. No -- It's a Lucent.

> Sure you can upgrade peripherals but there are less manufacturers thus
> variations of models (i.e. that WiFi card had to have been an Apple)
> that you can choose from for that upgrade - less choice meaning you're
> probably getting most of your stuff from Apple.

Sorry, but nothing I added to this PowerBook has an "Apple" logo on it.

The RAM came from Developer Depot and is two perfectly ordinary,
low-profile 256MB SODIMMs; I have no idea who the chip vendor was.
I did buy it at MacWorld, though. :-)

The disk is a Hitachi (nee IBM) IDE drive.

The IEEE-802.11b card is a Lucent, one of several that we interchange
among our several PCs and this Mac. It was supported by MacOS/9, but
for MacOS/X, I installed a public-domain driver.

The Firewire and USB cards come from a third-Party Mac vendor, but I
doubt they contain anything Mac-specific; there were certainly no
drivers required in the MacOS/X environment; if I cracked them open,
I'd probably find industry-standard CardBus-to-USB and CardBus-to-
FireWire bridge chips.

Now that PCIbus, ATA, USB, and FireWire (IEEE-1394) have become so
popular, the concept of Mac-specific peripherals is fading fast.

Atlant

[Not a robought]

92. Open concept is the key to success

Now that PCIbus, ATA, USB, and FireWire (IEEE-1394) have become so
popular, the concept of Mac-specific peripherals is fading fast.

That's good, a little late but good. The perception of the opposite is still out there as you can see while Mac brands all of its peripherals and charges an arm and a leg. Like the Airport. Why is it so expensive compared to a Linksys?

Like I said, I use all computer platforms and find all useful given the task. The Mac just wasn't for me for my personal purchase this last round as it would not have been right... for me. I am getting amazing speed performance for my processor intensive tasks on this $1299 model that I would've found hard to justify on something costing $2250, same 256meg ram, same size screen, same weight, same video ram - no dvd burner, but much faster processor.

Perhaps Mac would think of porting OS X to the PC platform. Then Windows would have something serious to worry about.

[Atlant]

95. Linksys WRT54G versus Apple AirPort Base Station

Okay, let's compare Apples versus pears...

The Linksys WRT54G IEEE-802.11g wireless router with four
port switch is $109.99 at Amazon, minus a $10 rebate. So
we'll call it $100 even.

The Apple Airport Base Station (with a two-port Ethernet
switch) is $199.

Yes, $99 more. But for your money you get several additional
features that may be worth something to someone:

1. It routes the AppleTalk protocols. Last I knew, the
Linksys didn't do that.

2. It contains a very clean management facility built into
MacOS/X.

3. The Apple ABS knows how to route from one ABS to another to
extend your range without wiring to the several ABS's.

And for $50 more (so $249), you can buy the Apple product with a
built-in 56Kbit/sec modem so it can fall-back to a dial-up ISP when
your cable/DSL provider is down. This version of the product also
allows the connection of several different external antennas for
increased range over the LinkSys router. (BTW, the web contains
descriptions of how to hack an external antenna onto the cheaper
version too.)

Is it worth it?

I guess that depends. That last feature (fall-back to a dial-up ISP)
has saved our internet connection quite a few times when ComCast has
decided we're not worthy of their bits any given morning.

You pays your money and you takes your choice, I guess.

Atlant

[dpbrown]

70. That's a little strong

You give no indication of what kind of Mac it is, how much of your discomfort is caused by your unfamiliarity with some differences in systems, whether or not you had to use programs you weren't familiar with, if it was an old Mac, a public Mac, etc.

You can say the Mac "sucks ass" but I'll never use a Wintel other than the one I have to use at work. Never. I won't buy a product from a company that helped to put Michael Savage Weiner on the air.

Personally, I've used Macs since the 1980s, and I've had no more "sucks ass" experiences on them than I have on the Wintel Dells I use at work. A couple of things are different, some are better, and I get a much better feeling supporting a company that supports liberals.

Steve Jobs only gives money to liberals. Al Gore's on the board. Microsoft is an adjudicated monopoly. Microsoft's broken Java, broken QuickTime, broken Netscape, and squashed more innovation than I can even remember.

Even if Microsoft didn't force on the masses with its monopolistic might an operating system that needed more patches than a submarine made of window screen, I wouldn't use it on conscientious consumer grounds.

I've read your work, and I appreciate you are a person of strong emotional commitment, but a company that makes the industry best MP3 player, the industry best movie editing software, the industry best UNIX-y operating system, the industry best video conferencing program and camera, and a lot of other stuff millions of people really, really enjoy, does not "suck ass."

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. Now go kick a dog or something.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[idontwantaname]

73. pcs are cool if you dont care about image and design.

but macs are expensive but cute.

[Elidor]

74. I use both and I like both

Mac vs. PC = simplicity vs. utility.

If an ordinary non-techie like me wants to network a group of PCs, it's a good idea to call home and tell them you'll try to make it back by Christmas. Networking Macs is so ridiculously easy I can do it during my smoke break.

My PC is great for all those exotic apps that aren't made for Mac (3D Studio Max, all those violent games). The Macs I use at work are (relatively) stable workhorses that are easy to troubleshoot in a high-pressure deadline environment.

I must admit I hate OS X. I'm used to 9, and I can't find a goddamn thing in X. It pisses me off.

Bill Gates is still the Antichrist. I sure don't use PCs out of any love for his crap-ass products.

[bif]

75. Have a Mac at work and at home

I love 'em both. I'm in advertising and the field is dominated by Macs. So it made sense to get one at home too. Can't beat a Mac. So bite me!

[laconicsax]

77. The biggest problem with Macs

isn't that they suck, it's that when they crash--and they do quite frequently, for no reason, no one knows how to fix the problem.

PCs crash all the time for predictable reasons, and as a result, it's pretty easy to find someone who knows how to fix any problem with them. Also, as far as I can tell, XP is very reliable. I've been running it for over a year and the only problem I've had was when a game I was playing encountered some wacked out error and crashed.

Macs crash all the time, but for no good reason. They just freeze, then restart. No one knows how to fix the problem because it's a very frequent, random occurance. One time, a Mac I was using decided to crash when I clicked the 'scroll down' button, another when I was typing a paper--I guess it didn't like the first sentence I wrote.

Macs suck, Mac users just need to get over it.

[dpbrown]

79. Mac OS X doesn't crash hardly at all

The previous versions were built on a proprietary system, and had many things added to them, by Apple, and by users. As a result, OS 9 and earlier were susceptible to incompatibilities with those added elements. I mostly ran the system without a lot of bells and whistles and added screensavers and so even with the earlier systems I rarely encountered crashes. Usually, screen savers were the cause of earlier system crashes.

With OS X, the system is not tied down with those kind of elements. It's built on top of a UNIX-y core, and when one program quits, it doesn't bring down the whole system or freeze the computer.

And actually, people pretty much know why there are problems when there are any with the Mac. The website http://www.macfixit.com almost always has the latest on any reported problem with any third-party software or whatever.

That's as easy as it gets. No frequent patches, no worries about macros that make your system vulnerable, no frequent viruses infiltrating your Outlook email addresses.

And Steve Jobs only supports liberals. And Al Gore's on the board. While Microsoft, an adjudicated monopolist that has tried to kill Netscape, and Java, and QuickTime, and on and on and on, and brought Michael Savage Weiner to the masses, continues to feed its bloated and unstable proprietary madness to the Wintel hordes, and the government has to issue warnings that your system is vulnerable if you're using Windows, and Navy ships go dead in the water because their system runs on Windows.

I'll take the conscientious consumer route any time. And I feel even better about it going with the company that brought out the iPod, and iMusic, and iMovie, and the iCam, and popularized the use of FireWire, and QuickTime, and Safari.

Yup, Mac users don't have to "get over" anything, except maybe feeling left out for not supporting an adjudicated monopolist with an operating system the government sends warnings about because it's so vulnerable. I guess if I try real hard I can maybe get over that.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[DS1]

81. yes, it does, sometimes

Maybe your system hasn't crashed yet, but I've seen OSX frozen over a dozen times.

2 can play the edit subject line game.

[dpbrown]

83. Black, meet white

The posters point was that the operating system crashed, making all the programs useless, forcing a reboot, and leaving one with no understanding of how the problem was caused.

If you had read my post, and responded to the content, instead of to the subject title, you would have seen that the poster was talking about pre-OS X operating system problems, and was in fact wrong also about troubleshooting.

I was always able to troubleshoot my own computer. I never had to call for technical assistance from the company that wrote my operating system. I saved hundreds of dollars in support fees by having an operating system that I could figure out myself.

And there is a website I pointed out on which most current issues are exhaustively diagnosed.

Everyone can say they saw this thing or that thing happen. My research tells me that no government warnings tell me my system is more vulnerable if I use a Mac, and my money is better spent supporting a company with better political ties and fewer monopoly problems by going with Apple.

Your milage may vary.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[emulatorloo]

84. If OS X is crashing, check for hardware problem (Bad RAM, Bad IDE Cables)

If you or your lab are experiencing crashes of OS X, check the hardware.

I had problems with OS X crashing a few times.

Once it turned out that a stick of RAM was bad. Replaced the stick, everything was cool.

Once it turned out that there was a tiny pinhole in my IDE cable. I replaced the cable and it was fine.

Once it turned out that my Maxtor 20gig system disk was physically failing. I went to the staples, got a new drive, and everything was fine.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. When OS X crashed for me

it was due to a defective hard disk. I replaced the hard disk (four years after buying the original computer and having no problems with it), and no more crashes.

[dwckabal]

171. tell that to my friend's mom

whose Dell crashed for no good reason, and now only gets the main background screen, no icons, just a cursor and a blue screen (not the BSOD). Reinstallation of Windows did not help. Had to boot into DOS and DELTREE the WINDOWS directory, and then re-install Windows.

And so easy and intuitive!!

[eileen_d]

87. LOL! it's the OS wars at DU

After religion and politics, the third issue never to bring up in polite company. ;)

I like Linux, Mac, and WinPCs in that order. So I'm "tri"

[Spider Jerusalem]

94. I have a PC. With 3 different operating systems.

I use BeOS for graphics/multimedia, and I prefer it to any Mac I've used. Including OS X. I also use Linux, and I've never had a system crash under Linux, not ONCE, and no one I know who uses a Mac can say the same. And I use Win XP, and I've never gotten a virus or had a system crash. Macs are overrated, and it seems that the majority of people who use them have bought into Apple's marketing hype. That's the only explanation I can find for the cultic obsession one encounters.

[Atlant]

96. Morford on Macs...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/10/01/notes100103.DTL

<snip>

And there it is. The welcome screen. An exquisite downtempo chill soundtrack and the world "Welcome" swimming over the monitor in a number of different languages and you think, what the hell is this? Where's the pain? Where's the hassle and the misaligned factory molding and the broken keyboard and the 3,000 setup steps and the sense that I'm drowning in a sea of programmer jargon and plastic waste and ubergeek hell?

This is what Apple does. This is what they are known for and why their design team is so famous and why they win so many awards and why they engender such passionate devotion from their adherents and why Macs are still far, far superior to PCs and always will be. It's true.

Apple actually cares about this sort of thing. Which is odd. Which is rare. Which is why they deserve gushing adulation now and then. They actually put the time and energy and labor into creating a gorgeous package most people will toss anyway, and why they include a first-time welcome experience, with subtle music, with flowing lush clean graphics, one that will never be repeated, just because.

This is the point. Detail and nuance and texture and a sense of how users actually feel, what makes them smile, what makes the experience worthy and positive and sensual instead of necessary and drab and evil.

<more>

[geniph]

97. Good heavens, Will!

Don't you know dissing other people's OS's starts religious wars even more intense than Green/Dem or Israel/Palestine? You'll get yourself banned!

:-D

Geni
...who finds things to like and loathe about ALL OS's...

[Atlant]

98. More Morford on Mac...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/10/10/notes101003.DTL

For Sale: Hunk Of Sleek Magic

Love, lust, memory, a million whirling words.
Our columnist sells his most divine appliance

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Friday, October 10, 2003

For sale: Perhaps the most astounding appliance ever to exist in the history of the known universe, ever. Cheap.

This device, it is simply packed with magic. Crammed. Oozing. Power and mad desire and creative force and cute little blinking things.

I know this to be true. I am convinced the device has been touched by divine electric spark and beauty and aesthetic grace and because of this it is, in a way, priceless. But, nevertheless, I am asking about $1,150 for it. And it's worth every penny.

<snip>

And, yes, this machine, this gorgeous used PowerBook titanium G4, it is for sale. It is time to upgrade, expand, more and bigger and faster -- and, yet, I must pay proper homage. It must find the right home. The machine deserves it.

<more>

[Shrek]

99. Limbaugh loves Mac and hates Windows.

And it's well-known that his brain is severely addled by years of drug abuse.

'Nuff said.

:-)

[Deja Q]

106. Leave his drug abuse out of it!

His drug abuse has nothing to do with it, Limbaugh has been, is a, and will always be a has-been right-wing brainless, thoughtless blowhard of an imbecile with a brain the size of his toenail - and almost as intelligent!

As Macs are "made for the rest of us" who "think different", all I can say is "try thinking in the first place and you'll be better off. Use Linux!"

[alfredo]

137. He'd get a buzz, turn on iTunes visuals and trip out.

Too bad it was Lee Greenwood and Britney he was listening to.

[curse10]

100. I like both

I'm savvy on both platforms :-) And, there are somethings on Mac I like better than PC :P

[toddzilla]

101. not enough piracy connected to the mac

i could never get the volume of free software i can get for the PC on a mac.

plus.. i'm a gamer and use the pc for internet and nothing else really..

[WilliamPitt]

102. I LOVE that this thread is still going

:evilgrin:

[TrogL]

104. So have you tried linux with the GNOME desktop? KDE?

[ForrestGump]

103. Bite you? No way. Might catch one of them PC viruses.

I run Mac OS X now, and there're still a few things I like better about the 'classic' environment, but it's a great and stable platform and I'm much happier with it now that I'm loading up with OS-X-native software. But the older versions of Mac OS were also always vastly superior to the equivalent Windows offering (let us not even speak of DOS) and the improvements brought by OS X, largely results of its Unix underpinnings, does not necessarily imply that the older iterations of Mac-OS were inherently flawed.

I've posted before about the programs I run on my Mac - just about everything I could ever want, including eminently 'serious' applications such as statistics packages and the like and, of course, a ton of graphics and layout packages. Some extremely specialized programs are only available for the PC (in fact, some still only for DOS) as a function of market dominance or the utility of C-plus programming...I'm talking about things like very specialized things written by scientists for other scientists in response to extremely esoteric needs. Look in a catalog of Mac software and you'll see that most of what you need is available for Mac, including games - I don't have time to play games, anyway, but there're no shortage of them for the Mac and I know that with older Mac-OS versions the results of 3D-rendered games of a few years back were far better on Macs than on PCs.

Macs rule and PCs drool. The hardware's of superior construction and the software is so far ahead that Gates and his bunch, still trying to match Mac '98, might as well just give up and focus on their specialty - shaking down independent software developers.

Anyone who claims superiority of PCs over Macs can bite my floppy drive...not that they've been seen on Macs for years (yes, that does suck, though I have to admit that almost nothing that I do these days would ever fit on a 1.4 MB diskette).

[Deja Q]

105. Youch! That's a sharp comment!

They're way overpriced and everything but the processor is underpowered for the price. ($3000 TOTL model has only 512MB RAM and can still benefit from having an extra 512MB added?!?!?! With only a ATi Radeon 9600 when, for $30000, one should be getting a 9800 model?! For that price, they should include all SCSI components too! And they used to...)

Linux forever!

Definitely Linux forever. As Macs cost a small fortune, people would more likely keep their existing hardware instead of having to replace it - which is what Linux allows you to do.

Apple has got to lower their prices to become competitive. They never understood this.

[Atlant]

113. You forgot to mention that...

You forgot to mention that while, yes, the TOTL machine
should have another 512MB of memory ($250 at Apple's
premium prices, less if you go third party), that this machine
also has TWO 2GHz Power4 (PPC970) processor chips. These
chips are very, very fast and 64 bits wide. Without playing
Photoshop benchmark games, collectively, they have enough
throughput to blow away nearly any PC configuration.

BTW, the Radeon 9800 is available. But not everyone is
doing the kind of stuff that will profit from a very-high-
end grapics adapter. In my shop, we certainly wouldn't.

Atlant

[Deja Q]

119. That's beside the point, which was why I didn't mention it...

Dual-CPU PCs costs well under $3000. The cost/benefit ratio still points to the PC unless you're doing something very specific, and even then does the performance make up for the price in the end? Not always, though not never...

Yes, I know the Mac's CPU will blow away a Pentium 4. But there's more to a computer than a CPU. And for $3000, because I would spend that money for a very fast top-of-the-line system, I'd expect NO LESS than 1GB RAM and a top-of-the-line video card. The Radeon 9600 is not top-of-the-line by any means. Apple is ripping you off by cutting such corners. You can't justify it. I'd expect 512MB RAM and a 9600 in the $2000 model I suppose (though for well under $2000 I can build a PC with the fastest P4 or Athlon processors WITH 1GB of RAM and a Radeon 9800, or better the Nvidia GeForce 5900FX Ultra...)

And Linux tops it off for the OS too.

It's going to be hard to win new converts to the Mac when Linux is poised to be the successor when it uses existing hardware and still runs loads faster than Windows.

[Atlant]

123. You know, it's a funny thing.

I went to the Dell Website and I decided to configure a system
similar to the Mac TOTL. You know, dual processors, 512MB,
writeable DVD, modem, Firewire, Gigabit Ethernet, and the like.
I chose a "Precision 450" (as the lowest-cost multiprocessor).

And the price, after rebates and other price-hiding BS,
came out to $2623, or about $376 less than the Mac.
Of course, the Dell has only 120GB and the Mac has
160GB, but that's NBD. (The next available increment
from Dell is 250GB, and that'll cost you another $200.)
The Mac also has a 1GHz front-end bus whereas the Dell
has an 533MHz front-end bus, but that's also NBD. Then
there are the included apps that come with the Mac: iTunes,
iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iCal, iSync, iPhoto, ssh, etc. Then again,
the Dell includes Office/XP, so we'll call that a wash.

Realistically, when you're comparing BRAND-NAME
HARDWARE to brand-name hardware, there's very
little difference in price between a Mac and a PC these
days. And I really don't care that you can "build" a white-
box special for less money; that's not the mainstream
of either the Mac or the PC market and doesn't prove
anything.

Atlant

[Atlant]

126. By the way, did that PC you configured allow 8GB of RAM?

By the way, did that PC you configured allow 8GB of RAM?
The PowerMac/G5, with it's IBM PowerPC-970 64-bit processor
chip does.

(And it's a well-known rule in the Photoshop game, as well
as many other computation-intensive tasks, that you can
NEVER have too much main memory, so I'm certain
there are users who will fit "the full boat" of memory.)

Atlant

[alfredo]

107. What model and what OS. OS 9 and some of the early OSX

builds were not that good compared to what is out now (Jaguar).

You need to look at one of the G5's to see what is going on in the Mac world.

[toddzilla]

110. can you build your own mac?

just curious.

[Atlant]

112. You can't actually "build" your own PC.

What you can do is buy a motherboard, a processor chip,
and a mounting box, and screw them all together. What's
the point? Does assembling a few parts make you feel like
a hardware engineer or something?

When you start vapor-phase soldering surface mount
components down to the PWB, then you can claim to
actually be "building" your PC.

Atlant

[Uzybone]

121. Geez he just asked a question

why so frigging defensive?

[Atlant]

124. Not defensive. I just find screw-driver twidlers...

Not defensive. I just happened to spend about 24 years of
my life ACTUALLY BUILDING (DESIGNING) CPUs so I
just find it amusing when someone claims to be "building"
a computer by screwing a mini-AT motherboard into a box,
plugging a processor into a ZIF socket, and connecting a
few cables. That's like someone claiming to have "built"
a car just because they bolted on a couple of Glass-Packs
and some chrome.

Atlant

[TrogL]

146. What chip were you working on?

(ignorant of spelling)

I'm a (fairly ignorant) student of chip design.

When I was at computer school, we had a student newspaper mostly full of gossip and stuff, but it was being done on my Macintosh so I let them do it on the condition that I got my own technical column on the last page. I decided to start from the ground up so I wrote several columns on chip design with a "special" when the 486 came out.

My audience seemed to be evenly split along two poles.

• "I have no idea what you're talking about."
  
• "It's the only thing worth reading in the newspaper."
  

[Atlant]

147. "Chips? What's a chip?"

> What chip were you working on?

Chips? What's a chip? :-)

Seriously, while I didn't design the thing, my experience goes
all the way back to working on the ORIGINAL DEC PDP-8 (the
"Straight Eight") that was built out of actual discrete transistors
and diodes and stuff on several hundred tiny modules plugged into
a wire-wrapped backplane.

My first design experience was on the DEC PDP-11/24 (an LSI-based
machine) where I designed several of the maintenance features
including the ROM-based program that powered-up the machine. I
then did the re-design of the front-end processor firmware for the
PDP-11/44 (a TTL MSI-based machine), followed by the front-end
processor and some microcode support for the VAX/8800 family. At the
time, this was DEC's biggest, baddest VAX although it's absolutely
puny by today's standards. It was a macrocell-array design cycling
at about 22 MHz. I then spent some time with the J-11 design group
helping to design the processor boards that used this particular LSI
microprocessor chip. I was also DEC's representative to the IEEE
standards committe that was designing the ill-fated "FutureBus"
(IEEE-896). I was also the responsible engineer for the "Unibus".

I then moved over to a group that was designing SBCs ("Single
Board Computers") that plugged into the VMEbus and used the
DEC Alpha (EV-4 and EV-5) 64-bit chips. My principal responsibility
was the SCSI subsystem on this module. At this time, the Alpha was
cranking about 200MHz. We sold this family of SBCs to a variety
of "interesting" customers so I got to spend more time than I'd
have liked locked in various secure vaults at various secure sites
playing with disk drives whose data I was never allowed to actually
see. :-)

My final experience with DEC was working in VMS Engineering where
I was responsible for their ATA and ATAPI disk drivers among more-
general high-end multi-processor support work. At the time, we were
rolling out the GS/160 ("Wildfire") multi-way NUMA system and I was
also part of the team doing that support. I left around the time that
the EV-7 chip was first rolling out internally and we were doing
its supporting systems software.

When it became clear to me that DEC was NEVER going to
successfully capitalize on the fact that, in Alpha, it had had the
world's fastest microprocessor for several generations of the chip,
and in VMS, it had the world's best server operating system, I then
left DEC to go become a Sun Solaris hacker, which is what I remain
to this day.

Atlant

[Undemcided]

153. That's a pet peeve of mine as well.

I can't help telling people that they "assembled" a system and didn't build it. :mad:

[quaker bill]

114. Never got around to apples

As a guy who grew up keypunching code and command line processing, I found the GUI concept simply irritating.

Just drag it to the trashcan they told me with the Apple II. No thanks. When I punch a button I mean it, I don't want the stupid box comming back at me "Are you sure?"

I have adapted. But I still memorize the keyboard shortcuts and program my routines and queries in code. F the "wizards" they are as likely to give me something I want as not. Code works the way I tell it to.

[Atlant]

115. You'd love MacOS/X then.

Just launch a terminal and there you are in a tcsh (or whichever
Unix command shell you'd prefer) and away you go!

No '029 keyboard arrangment that I'm aware of though,
although I'm pretty sure you could roll your own quite
easily; many keycap arrangements are inherently supported
and you can certainly extend that scheme.

Atlant
(Who still has fond memories of the "thunk,
thunk" sound of a well-running '029)

[alfredo]

139. You need to check out UNIX for the Mac

And other offerings detailing the BSD underpinnings. You can play in the terminal until you fingers drop off.
you can even update your software in the terminal
sudo softwareupdate

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/

http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/collections/unix.html
http://fink.sourceforge.net/index.php

[goobergunch]

116. iBite.

Actually I'm not a Mac fan, but I just wanted to say that. :evilgrin:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

118. CHOMP!

Hey, Will, it sounds as if you tried to use an antique Mac after a few too many steins of beer.

There's a little coffee place in my neighborhood where the self-employed take their computers to work. I'm there a couple of afternoons a week with my ancient (Dec. 2000) iBook, and on any given day, the majority of the computers there are from Apple. One day, there were, in addition to my old iBook, a new iBook with a 12" screen, and three Powerbooks, one older one with a black plastic case, and two titanium ones, a 15" and a 17". The owner was using the 17" for video editing.

There's one person who sometimes shows up with a Vaio, and another person who shows up with a Dell, but the rest are all Mac users.

And it's a heavily Democratic neighborhood... :-)

[Uzybone]

122. Macs are overrated

OSX crashes about as much as Win XP in my experience. As for viruses, use half your brain and you wont get them, simple. They are over priced , under supported and have too many loony fan boys (as this thread clearly shows). They definately have some advantages over PCs but not enough to warrant switching your entire network over to Apple.

[emulatorloo]

127. InfoWorld: A migration project changes everything

http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/10/10/40OPcurve_1.html

Ahead of the Curve
A migration project changes everything
Wholesale Mac migration yields initial disruption, but ultimate productivity payoff
 
<snip> (summary he has trouble initially setting things up, and isn't thrilled w the OS X 10.2 server version of Samba)

I think the news from the client side is more interesting because it caught me by surprise. Over the course of a week, my two-headed (dual display) Power Mac G5 became, without my conscious effort to make it so, the nerve center and productivity hub for my entire lab.

I kept loading the Power Mac G5 with software. Right now, on the Cinema display, iChat and iCal are open. So is Radio Userland. I have Terminal Server sessions open to two PCs under test (one is a laptop). I'm watching my Xserve cluster fill my Xserve RAID with a huge tests database. The Xserve RAID admin console is visible just to make sure that I don’t actually set the thing on fire. There are two text Terminal windows, one local and one remote, and an X Window session into an Opteron Linux server that’s running SPEC benchmarks.

What surprised me is that as I opened each of the windows I planned to use, I didn’t feel the need to close others to keep things “clean.” It isn’t a question of real estate or performance or capacity. It’s subjective, and I haven’t found a way to explain it to myself much less express it here.

My standard desktop has been four PCs and a keyboard/video/mouse switch. I have always multitasked deeply (to observers, disturbingly so), but serially. Concurrent multitasking is a trick I periodically attempt, but I always return to my KVM switch. For the past couple of weeks, that switch and its connected PCs have been idle. Sometimes I forget that the consolidation of thought and working style is as important as the consolidation of technology.

[emulatorloo]

129. InfoWorld: Mac OS X: It just works - an option that's enterprise-worthy

http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/09/12/36OPconnection_1.html

CTO Connection
 
Mac OS X: It just works
An option that's enterprise-worthy

By  Chad Dickerson
September 12, 2003  
 
<snip>

The “it just works” quality of Mac OS X also saves a lot of time and frustration -- what your pro-Mac friends and colleagues have been telling you is definitely true. Several months ago, I bought a 120GB external FireWire hard drive for my home PC to use as a backup device. After about a month, my PC stopped recognizing the drive, so I tried the drive with another PC at work and the same thing happened. I foolishly lost my receipt for the expensive but still-warrantied drive, so I was stuck. Enter the Mac -- I plugged the drive into my G4 and it worked immediately. This is what makes Mac OS X so compelling: With decimated IT staffs getting slammed from without (Sobig.F) and within (frustrated end-users), something that just works is downright refreshing.

[Atman]

150. It's the little things that work, too

I bought a Nikon digital camera about a year ago. I recently sold it for almost what I paid for it, because all of the software was still in the shrinkwraps...the very first time I used it, I plugged in the USB cable and the iPhoto app launched all on its own. I never looked at any software of manuals or drivers or anything.

As the guy said, it all just works. Every add on or expansion I've ever bought worked the same way.

As I type this my kid has just installed a firewire/usb combo card, a new video card and a new G4 processor upgrade into an old PowerMac 9600 he bought on e-bay. He started the process at about noon. At 1:10 he came to me to report that it all started up without a hitch. And this antique computer is running the newest version of OSX.

Bite me, indeed!

[Atlant]

125. Business Week: Why Apple may make inroads...

http://yahoo.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2003/tc2003101_8543_tc056.htm

Finally, an Opening for Apple in IT

Macs as Unix workstations, the rise of laptops, and the dangers of a Microsoft "monoculture" are combining to create a real opportunity

By Alex Salkever

On Sept. 24, a group of seven prominent security researchers released a paper putting the blame for the recent spate of nasty worms and the resulting computer network outages on Microsoft (MSFT). As they see it, the fact that Gates & Co. control 95% of the PC operating-system marketplace has created a "monoculture" that shares common vulnerabilities. This threatens to open the door to catastrophic failures of entire organizations when worms spread quickly over the Net. The paper proved controversial enough to get one of the signees fired, even though most of the info-tech world now agrees that monoculture is a serious problem.

One hates to profit from the woes of others, but that's precisely Apple's (AAPL ) opening here. No, I'm not talking about consumer switchers. That campaign died an ignominious death after switching turned out to be less enticing than Apple led people to believe. (My wife says the iMac I use is so slow compared to her Dell that she would rather get hit with a switch than make the switch.)

Rather, the opportunity lies in the corporations that long ago stopped paying attention to Macs. Right now, three key trends are leading IT guys to take a second look at Apple. The first is the lure of the cheap and dirty Unix workstation. The second is the rise of laptops. The third, and most potent, is the growing frustration with the Microsoft monoculture and all too common worm attacks that gum up corporate networks. All three factors have long lurked in the background, but now they can't be avoided.

DUAL ROLES. A couple of my friends who go to LinuxWorld say they saw more Linux lovers toting PowerBooks than ever before. These are people who appreciate the Apple interface and the desktop software but also like being able to do heavy Unix and Linux lifting if need be.

Then there are my friends in the IT departments, who need to run Unix on a desktop to manage a network but also have to be able to talk with the Windows universe. They buy PowerBooks because they can do both, either with Office for Mac or Virtual PC, a Windows emulator. " trying to position the PowerBooks as portable Unix workstations. They are much less expensive than other Unix workstations," says Eric Bangeman, news editor and Mac columnist at tech news and reviews site Ars Technica.

<more>

[Atlant]

128. (Cross-post) You know, it's a funny thing.

(Originally posted here)

Here on DU, we routinely point out the problems with the
political party that currently runs the country and we advise
people to "get another political party". And you all say "Amen".

But when some of us point out the problems with the
operating system that currently runs the country and we
advise people to "get another operating system", the
advice is called useless.

Honest, running an operating system that routinely
abuses you is no more intelligent than voting for a
political party that routinely abuses you.

There ARE alternatives in both cases, political
and computerish.

And in both cases, you'd feel much better if you
adopted one of the alternatives.

The Democrats suit some people while the Greens,
Socialists, or what-have-you suit others.

The MacOS suits some people while Linux, Solaris,
BeOS, VMS, MVS, or what-have-you suit others.

But I understand that you probably "voted" for Windows
so now you feel that you must defend your decision.

Atlant

[emulatorloo]

130. But Seriously, Will, why did Dept of Homeland Security award 90mil to MS

When their software is "riddled with vulnerabilities" and there are more secure alternatives like Linux and Mac OS X (Unix based) approved by the federal govt?

When you finish your other work, I think this is worth looking into in your "spare time"

Best Regards

____________________________________________________
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=11249

Microsoft software "riddled with vulnerabilities", trade body claims

Dept of Homeland Security should avoid Microsoft

INQUIRER staff: Thursday 28 August 2003, 16:02

THE US Computer and Communications Industry Association (CCIA) has urged the US Department of Homeland Security to avoid using Microsoft software.

The Washington based association, which represents members that generate over $200 billion, has issued an open letter to Tom Ridge, Secretary of the department, urging him to review his decision to choose Microsoft for its desktops and servers.

It claims that last week's events relating to the Blaster and SoBig worms, have highlighted problems in cybersecurity.

The letter, from Ed Black, the association's president, said:"We believe that for software to be truly secure it must be well written from the outset with security considerations given a high priority".

It accuses Microsoft of being more interested in economic marketing and competition than security and said the lack of diversity within a network system "amplifies the risk emanating from any vulnerabilities that do exist".

It continues: "Our preliminary findings indicate the severity of the security problems relating to some Microsoft software".

The Blaster worm, it said, crashed the Navy Marine intranet*, the CSX railway system, Maryland's Dept of Motor Vehicles, Air Canada systems, and most seriously earlier this year a nuclear power plant was downed by Slammer.

Microsoft, it claims, isn't guiltless, because it is continuing to "create software riddled with obvious and easily exploited vulnerabilities". µ


* A SMALL correction here. The worm caused an intrusion, rather than a crash, on this particular network.

___________________________________________

Onedit, edit heading for spelling and grammar and add a sentence for clarification.

[stanwyck]

131. Must be overdoing the Oktoberfest

cause not preferring MACs to PCs is insane. PCs reflect the conservative white males who fear life. MACs are for creative people who have a wide frame of reference and embrace life. Sober up.

[Throckmorton]

132. Ok, but only if you go on a camping holiday with me first!!!

He asked me, He asked me.

[bpilgrim]

133. spoken like a newbie ;-)

macs are world renowned for their 'ease of use' which has been copied far and wide ie. windoze, with their recent embrace of OPENSOURCE and UNIX they are truely a dream workstation...



more...
http://xvsxp.com

peace

[emulatorloo]

135. Agreed - Please Visit X vs XP website, very logical and well organized!

Another endorsement for http://xvsxp.com

It is a very logical and balanced comparison of "ease of use" of the two operating systems.

The author encourages feedback if you think that he got something incorrect.

[catpower2000]

141. It takes a special kind of geek...

to feel personally insulted by what kind of computer someone else is using. This thread is hilarious. :)

Cat

[Atlant]

142. Nobody's "personally insulted"

We just hate to see people suffer needlessly.

Atlant

[Chovexani]

143. Kiss my grits Will

I love you dude, but it sounds like you've been in Rush's stash. Windoze blows goats, and I fart in your general direction. :)

[Atlant]

144. Apple Picking Season

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/09/tech/digitaldan/main577221.shtml

Apple Picking Season

NEW YORK, October 9, 2003



(CBS) Now that Fall is here, intrepid weekend travelers in the Northeast wander the woods for apple picking time. Ah, the smell of falling leaves and branches of fruit hanging down. So as my wife, the kids, and all our friends go out “fruiting,” I’m pretending to be sick at home doing a little “Apple picking” of my own. The Apples I've picked up are from the nice people in Cupertino, Calif., home of the Macintosh.

Power Mac G5

This is the pick of the season. We’ve started calling it the Cheese grater because frankly, the perforated metal face (which helps to keep it cool) gives it an industrial and somewhat “grating” appearance.

This is the most powerful Apple ever, with a 5th generation Power PC processor made by IBM running at speeds of up to 2.0 gigahertz. Now before PC-philes get into the whole “megahertz” debate, remember, these are not the same chips that are powering Windows computers, so comparing the two is like comparing apples and, yes, oranges. This translates into performance that smokes the Wintel competition, easily handling computationally challenging programs, such as video editing, DVD creation, etc. The Power Mac G5 comes with a sublimely new Airport Extreme 802.11g wireless connection card, which is about five times as a fast as your old 802.11b card. Add to that the super-fast FireWire 800 and 2 USB 2.0 ports so you can connect it to video cameras, printers, and just about everything else.

<snip>

Now for those of you wondering about that huge 23-inch flat panel cinema display you saw on our TV segment, that’s the 23-inch Flat Panel Cinema Display. It’s so beautiful, there aren’t enough words to describe it. But if you tried, and received a dollar for every word, you still couldn’t afford it. It’s $1,999. I’m pawning my children.

[MUAD_DIB]

145. I understand how you feel Will.

The monks that scribed the indulgences probably felt the same way about the printing press.

Good technology usually breeds fear.

[Atlant]

148. So has anyone taken Will up on his offer yet? (NT)

Fiber-optic backlit keyboard on the 15" and 17" PowerBooks:

[SOteric]

149. Dude...

I might bite you (or at least nibble) 'cause those pictures of you in the Netherlands that a poster took have proven you're quite the hottie and not nearly the elder statesman my mind had pictured.

But there's no way I'm taking exception to your characterisation of Macs. The college where I teach offers both in the Academic Computing Center. People will queue up to avoid using the Macs.

[ArkDem]

151. I can't imagine why anyone could possibly

feel looked down upon by a Mac user. I just feel sorry for them.

[Atman]

152. "I just feel sorry for them."

What a stupid waste of emotions.

[Atlant]

154. Less than 10 days until Panther...

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

Less than 10 days until Panther (MacOS/X 10.3) comes out!

In it, you will find (among many other things) several very cool
features:

Exposé -- A way to quickly see and pick-from ALL of your
windows, both on- and off-screen.


• iChat AV -- Built-in video conferencing using the well-established
  "chat" motif.
  
  
• Multiple simultaneous log-ons with very fast switching among
  the logged-on users.
  
  
• File Vault -- Files stored with built-in 128-bit encryption. This
  could be handy when John Ashcroft knocks on your door.
  
  
• Postcript printer sharing -- Serve out your locally-connected
  printers (even inkjet raster devices) as network PostScript printers.
  (This will let our SunStations print to our HP color inkjet!)
  
  
• Handwriting recognition in more languages (adding French
  and German).
  
  

Someday, even Windows may have these technologies!

Atlant

[Undemcided]

157. XP already has most of those

But I'm sticking with Win/2K for now.

PS: I used to work for Apple. Now there's not as many beer busts as there used to be. :-(

[Atlant]

159. Are you sure?

> XP already has most of those


Exposé -- A way to quickly see and pick-from ALL of your
windows, both on- and off-screen.

If you think XP has this feature, then you haven't seen
the feature yet. :-)


iChat AV -- Built-in video conferencing using the well-established
"chat" motif.

OK. So long as you have a Hotmail E-Mail account.


Multiple simultaneous log-ons with very fast switching among
the logged-on users.

AFAIK, XP allows only a single MAIN SCREENlog-on to any given
machine. Panther is going to allow multiple users to be logged-on
to the workstation main display(s) simultaneously, allowing rapid
switching between the multiple logged-on users.


File Vault -- Files stored with built-in 128-bit encryption. This
could be handy when John Ashcroft knocks on your door.

This one I believe that XP has. (Well, at least if you buy
the "Pro" edition.) But given Microsoft, it's almost-certainly
got deliberate or inadvertent holes in the security. Win/2K
required a patch before you could use full 128-bit encryption;
does XP as well?


Postcript printer sharing -- Serve out your locally-connected
printers (even inkjet raster devices) as network PostScript printers.

XP has a built-in PostScript RIP?


Handwriting recognition...

I think you may be confusing Office XP with Windows/XP. Recognition
appears to be a feature of Office XP, whereas the Mac offers it as
part of the base operating system, usable in any application.


Atlant

[TrogL]

158. Panther review

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4832

They finally threaded the finder.

[Atlant]

155. ZDNet: Sales boost Apple earnings

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5091976.html

Sales boost Apple earnings

By Ina Fried
CNET News.com
October 15, 2003, 3:56 PM PT

Buoyed by a rise in sales from a year ago, Apple Computer posted fourth-quarter earnings that narrowly topped expectations.

The Mac maker posted a net income of $44 million, or 12 cents per share, on revenue of $1.7 billion, for the three months ended Sept. 27. That compares with a net loss of $45 million, or 13 cents per share, on revenue of $1.4 billion in the same quarter a year ago.

Excluding a $6 million after-tax investment gain, a favorable accounting adjustment of $3 million that's related to Apple's stock repurchase efforts and other one-time items, Apple said the company would have posted earnings of $29 million, or 8 cents per share. Analysts were expecting earnings of 7 cents per share, according to First Call.

<snip>

"It was a great new product quarter for Apple," company CEO Steve Jobs said in a statement. "We launched the Power Mac G5, the fastest personal computer in the world, new PowerBooks and new iPods. Plus, we're delivering Panther, the next major release of Mac OS X, later this month, and we'll have some exciting news regarding our music efforts tomorrow.

<more>

[Atlant]

156. Microsoft pushes up XP security upgrade

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5091381.html

Microsoft pushes up XP security upgrade

By Munir Kotadia
ZDNet (UK)
October 15, 2003, 5:58 AM PT

A Microsoft executive said the company will launch Service Pack 2 for Windows XP in December, months earlier than the company forecast on its Service Pack roadmap.

At the Citrix iForum in Florida on Tuesday, Microsoft's corporate vice president of content, Richard Kaplan, who is in charge of the Microsoft.com and Windows Update Web sites, told delegates that Windows XP SP2 would be available by the end of the year. The service pack was originally planned for this year, but had been put back to 2004.

Kaplan admitted that Microsoft's record on security has "not been good enough", but he claims the company is improving. Security is now the number one priority for Microsoft and that will be demonstrated with SP2, he said, revealing that the update will contain enhanced memory protection in an attempt to reduce the operating system's vulnerability to buffer overflow exploits. "One of the primary way worms get onto the system is by what they call a buffer overflow. There is a new technology that lets us lock out people's ability to install code in Windows using a buffer overflow," he said.

<more>

[Andyjunction]

160. Macs

All work and no play makes Mac a dull box.

[WilliamPitt]

161. BWWWWAAAAAHHH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH

This thread is *still going*?? Wow.

P.S. I was using a brand new Mac in Paris. Almost done with my work, and it crashed, and I lost all my work. Mac = suck. My PC laptop has not crashed one time since I got it. Not one time.

[Atman]

162. Double BWHAHAHAHAHA! You shouldn't be reading this...

You have some more patches to dl!!!!


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Microsoft Corp. warned consumers Wednesday about four new flaws in its popular Windows software as the company shifted to monthly alerts for serious problems that could let hackers break into computers.

In particularly embarrassing disclosures, Microsoft acknowledged problems in its technology to authenticate software publishers over the Web and in its Windows help and support system.

The company said it did not believe hackers were yet exploiting any of the vulnerabilities it announced.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/10/16/microsoft.security.ap/index.html

[Atlant]

163. I wonder if the song will change now that iTunes is available?

http://www.apple.com/itunes/



http://www.apple.com/ipod/



Atlant

[Atlant]

164. So Will, have you put iTunes on your PC yet? (NT)

[Atlant]

166. One million+ iTunes for Windows downloads!

(This is a press release, so I've posted the whole thing.)

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2003/oct/20itunes.html

One Million Copies of iTunes
for Windows Software Downloaded
in Three and a Half Days

One Million Songs Purchased by iTunes Users in Three and a Half Days

CUPERTINO, California—October 20, 2003—Apple® today announced that Windows users have downloaded more than one million copies of its new iTunes™ for Windows digital jukebox software in just three and a half days since its launch last Thursday, and over one million songs have been purchased and downloaded by iTunes users in the same period.

“iTunes users have purchased over one million songs in the first three and a half days since our launch last Thursday, which compares with one million songs in the first seven days when we introduced the original iTunes for Mac users last April,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “We're off to a great start, and our competition isn't even out of the starting gates yet.”

The iTunes Music Store has revolutionized the way people legally buy music online. An astounding 14 million songs have been purchased and downloaded since the original iTunes Music Store launch in April, solidifying the iTunes Music Store’s position as the number one download music service in the world.

The second generation iTunes Music Store offers Windows users the same online music store as Mac® users with the same music catalog, the same “gold standard” personal use rights and the same 99 cents-per-song pricing. The second generation iTunes Music Store launched last week includes online gift certificates for family and friends; Apple’s innovative and patent-pending online “Allowance” feature which allows parents to automatically deposit funds into their kids’ iTunes Music Store account every month; more than 5,000 audiobooks which can be purchased with one click and listened to on any Mac or Windows computer as well as on iPods; Celebrity Playlists; and new exclusive tracks from more than 60 artists. With music from all five major music companies and over 200 independent music labels, the iTunes Music Store catalog is growing every day and will offer more than 400,000 songs by the end of October.

Apple offers the unbeatable combination of the award-winning iTunes digital jukebox software, the pioneering iTunes Music Store and the market-leading iPod™ digital music player, providing music lovers with a seamless experience for buying, managing and listening to their digital music collections anywhere.

Windows iPod users can now use their iPod with the award-winning iTunes digital jukebox software and enjoy the best digital music experience on any platform. iTunes for Windows includes all the same great features that made it the best digital jukebox software for the Mac—a free download with no hidden charges for extra features, MP3 and pristine quality AAC encoding from audio CDs, Smart Playlists, over 250 free Internet radio stations, and the ability to burn custom playlists to CDs and MP3 CDs, burn content to DVDs to back-up an entire music collection and share music between computers via Rendezvous™ over any network, cross-platform.

Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Apple is committed to bringing the best personal computing experience to students, educators, creative professionals and consumers around the world through its innovative hardware, software and Internet offerings.

Press Contacts:
Natalie Sequeira
Apple
[phone]
[e-mail]

Steve Dowling
Apple
[phone]
[e-mail]

NOTE TO EDITORS: For additional information visit Apple's PR website (www.apple.com/pr/), or call Apple's Media Helpline at [phone].

Apple, the Apple logo, Macintosh, Mac, Mac OS, iTunes, iPod and Rendezvous are either registered trademarks or trademarks of Apple. Other company and product names may be trademarks of their respective owners.

[ikojo]

165. Will, I love your political writing

but not what you have to say about the Mac.

I switched from winBLOWS to the Mac in June and haven't looked back. Perhaps I speak as one who has found a new religion but the Mac does everything I ask of it and says, "is that all you've got?" As I write this I am downloading two concerts (a Mike Gordon show and a Dead show) as well as surfing the Internet. My Mac is just plugging away...

Now if I tried any of that on my blows machine, even though it has 384 MB RAM and a 1ghz processor, it would stop up and say low on system resources. I have never received this message on my beloved Mac.

I love my Mac!!!!
:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[WilliamPitt]

167. I am AMAZED this thread still lives

Some people need hobbies.

:)

*ducking, fleeing, giving Mac users the finger*

[TrogL]

177. Mac users have more time

to surf and kick threads and generally cause havoc.

Windoze users are too busy patching, reinstalling the operating system (AGAIN?!?!) or buried in swap staring at an hourglass.

[Atlant]

168. "Stupid White Men" -- The #10 Apple Audiobook!

On progressives' 'Pods everywhere? :-)


http://www.apple.com/itunes/store/books/

Today’s Top Audiobooks

1. Pure Drivel
Steve Martin
Pure Drivel
2. The Da Vinci Code
Dan Brown
3. A Short History of Nearly Everything
Bill Bryson
4. The Hobbit
J.R.R. Tolkien
5. The Second Coming of Steve Jobs...
Alan Deutschman
6. Bleachers (Unabridged)
John Grisham
7. The DaVinci Code (Unabridged)
Dan Brown
8. Charlotte’s Web (Unabridged)
E.B. White
9. In-Flight Spanish: Learn Before Yo...
Living Language
10. Stupid White Men...and Other Sorry...
Michael Moore

[Atlant]

169. Introducing the iBook G4 !

http://www.apple.com/ibook/



The world’s best-loved consumer portable gets an impressive makeover with a superfast PowerPC G4 processor, a new architecture, a slot-loading optical drive and enhanced wireless networking capabilities. Plus Mac OS X v10.3 Panther, the world’s most advanced operating system.

Perfect for everything from doing your homework to playing games, and from watching DVD movies to burning your own music CDs, the 4.9-pound iBook G4 fits snugly in your backpack — and your life.

With its extra long battery life, compact size and ultralight weight, the iBook G4 can accompany you everywhere. And with a choice of 12.1-inch or 14.1-inch displays, turbocharged 800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processors, 30GB, 40GB or 60GB Ultra ATA/100 hard disk drives, 256MB of RAM expandable to 640MB — plus optional AirPort Extreme wireless networking and optional built-in Bluetooth wireless peripheral connectivity as well as conveniently located FireWire, USB 2.0 and Ethernet ports — the iBook gives you astonishing performance in a stunning design.

12 specs The 12.1-inch iBook slips easily into a backpack. It weighs less than many textbooks that kids are supposed to carry these days, making it perfect for school. Just don’t be surprised if you find yourself wondering how such a wide screen fits into a notebook computer that measures just 11.2 inches wide, 9.1 inches deep and 1.35 inches thick.

14 specs If you’re looking for more space to work and play in, feel free to pick the iBook with the visibly larger 14.1-inch TFT XGA active-matrix display. Both iBook models have brilliant 1024-by-768-pixel resolution — ideal for doing everything from working on spreadsheets to displaying your movies and digital pictures in millions of colors (incidentally, the iBook display scales down beautifully, again with millions of colors, for special games and applications optimized for 800-by-600 or 640-by-480 pixel resolutions).

<more>

Starting at $1099

[Atlant]

172. Tomorrow is Panther Day!

Too bad I'll be on a train to D.C. for Saturday's fun,
and then back at a Dean event all day Sunday!

Atlant

[Atlant]

173. Apple cuts prices on eMac line (to $799)

(Just a brief)

http://zdnet.com.com/2110-1103_2-5095557.html

Apple cuts prices on eMac line
Reuters
October 23, 2003, 8:33 AM PT

Apple Computer, the computer company known for its designs and most recently for its digital music player and service, said on Wednesday it cut prices on its line of eMac computers.

Apple said the desktop computers, which have been targeted at schools and for home use, would start at $1,099 for a system that includes a super drive providing the ability to burn CDs and most DVDs, down from $1299. Models without a super drive start at $799, down from $999.

[Atlant]

174. iPod has 31% market share (of MP3 players)

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5095625.html

Apple cracks open the iPod, slightly
By Ina Fried
CNET News.com
October 23, 2003, 10:56 AM PT

The iPod, which turned two years old this month, spent its first months focused on doing one thing--playing music. Apple added other features, such as address and calendar information, the ability to store notes and a couple of games. Now, the computer maker is starting to let other companies join the act.

While stopping short of opening up the iPod's operating system or freely offering a developer's kit, the Mac maker has quietly been working with a number of other companies to boost the number of add-ons that attach to the iconic white player.

"There's things that we've done to help other people bring the iPod into other markets and other uses," Apple Senior Vice President Phil Schiller said last week.

Expanding the iPod's capabilities is likely to please buyers and help solidify Apple's commanding lead of the portable MP3 market. The company has sold 1.4 million iPods--nearly half of those in the last 6 months--making the device the leading MP3 player on the market, with 31 percent market share for July and August, according to market studies cited by Apple.

The iPod also has been critical to Apple's bottom line, helping the company beat analysts' expectations for the past two quarters.

<more>

[TXlib]

175. Macs suck farts out of dead Yaks

[Atlant]

176. Clearly...

Clearly, with such a stellar grasp of language and colorful idiom,
you must be a Windows user.

Don't most Windows users spend a dis-proportionate amount of time
thinking up just such colorful ways to describe their (alleged)
computers?

Atlant