Why would PMartinez throw a 72 yr old man...

[Uzybone]

to the ground? Ill see the film when I get home but the pictures dont look too good. Pedro is one of my favorite pitchers even though he works for a bunch of losers. Maybe the lack of class shown by Boston has finally infected him.

[poskonig]

1. It looked to me like Zimmer was throwing a punch.

It wasn't like Martinez threw him down and started ferociously beating him.

[ronzo]

2. Zimmer will kick your ass!

He's been a little edgy... pass the Preparation H cooling gel.

[sasquatch]

3. That man came after him

I don't care who's coming after you going to assualt you, you've got to take'em on. A seventy-two year old man should know better than that.

[wndycty]

4. I would have dropped Zimmer too

:kick:

[regnaD kciN]

216. ...as would most Boston fans!

Honestly, Zimmer has been the best weapon the Yanks have had against Boston for decades...particularly during his stint as Red Sox manager from '76 to '81, when he personally handed two consecutive division titles to New York with his brain-dead managing.

[peaches2003]

5. Zimmer

went running right at Pedro swinging his left fist like he was crazy. All Pedro did was knock him down and back off instead of swinging back at him. Zimmer was a madman and deserved 100% of the blame. I'm not a Red Sox fan, just happened to be watching the game. The announcers were so pro-Yankee; immediately started blaming Pedro and when they watched the tape again they sounded embarrassed.

[Uzybone]

6. Well Ill look at it when I get home

but the headline "RED SOX ACE THROWS 72 YEAR OLD MAN TO THE GROUND" is bothersome is it not? I mean how much damage could Prep H Zimmer do? All Pedro would have to is wave his glove in Zimmers face to subdue him.


edited for spelling

[HuckleB]

10. He was running.

He wasn't swinging.

[HuckleB]

7. Pedro has no excuse.

All Zimmer was doing was running up to him to give him a piece of his mind. And, quite frankly, Pedro deserved to get a piece of Zimmer's mind. Pedro's toss at Garcia was shameless. His threat aimed at Posada was worse. If Pedro didn't want to hear it, he could have easily gotten out of the way and left the field.

I don't like the Yankees. I was brought up right. But I'm damn glad they won this game. Pedro and Manny just lost the Sox gobs of national support.

[sasquatch]

20. Bullshit he was going to hit him

If you can't see that you're in total denial

[HuckleB]

24. Wrong.

But I am wondering why you need to believe that Zimmer was swinging at Pedro, when the video clearly shows otherwise.

[Old and In the Way]

37. Come on, they showed that replay a dozen times.....

Zimmer ran up to Pedro and I think he may have hit Pedro with his left hand. Pedro simply moved to his left and used Don's momentum to send him to the ground. Zimmer was clearly the aggressor. Pedro never hit Don or attacked him.

The question is, why did Don attack Pedro?

[HuckleB]

39. Whatever you want to believe.

I was in a bar full of Cubs fan who were rooting for the Red Sox. None of them are going with your story.

[Shakespeare]

47. Wrong again.

Zimmer had his left fist raised and swinging for Pedro's head. Pedro pushed him ASIDE and to the ground, and walked away. Zimmer's lucky Martinez didn't swing back, and frankly got exactly what he deserved.

[HuckleB]

52. Again, you can think whatever you want to think.

I saw a very different video over and over and over again!

I'm done with this topic.

It's silly.

[Shakespeare]

67. That's funny....I saw one over and over and over again, too.

And so did the commentators, who initially immediately condemned Pedro, then backed off the comment when it became clear (and they verbalized this as well) that Zimmer was taking a swing at Martinez.

You can argue whether Pedro should've taken the punch or whether he was right to throw Zimmer aside, but there's no question Zimmer was charging him. He was barreling full steam at Martinez, and that's partly why he went down when Martinez pushed him to the side. You don't barrel full steam at somebody when you're just "giving them a piece of your mind." As for that, Zimmer was clearly "giving him a piece of his mind" well before he physically reached Martinez, because Pedro stopped in his tracks and yelled "what?" at Zimmer as he approached. He didn't rush back at Zimmer, he didn't strike back at Zimmer. He pushed him to the side.

[Beetwasher]

46. Honestly, I disagree

The only thing Zimmer did was run up to Pedro to give him a peice of his mind and perhaps stop him from moving towards the melee. It's not clear he threw a punch. I saw the video everytime they showed it and it's just not clear. I'll admit it's possible, but it's certainly not clear it was a punch. Anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest because it's just not clear. It seemed to me that Zimmer could very well have been moving his hands up to stop Pedro from moving forward anymore as he got in his face to mouth off. Pedro DID attack Zimmer even if it was in self defense, which I'm not sure of. What he did most certainly was an attack.

The question about why Don APPROACHED Pedro should be obvious. That pitch to the back of the head was atrocious and vile. And the threat afterwards to the Yankee dugout was probably one of the most despicable pieces of trash talk I've ever seen on ballfield. Zimmer was pissed and was going to give Pedro a piece of his mind and maybe stop Pedro, who just threatened Zimmer's teammates, from getting near the melee, that's the ONLY thing I'm sure about. Did he throw a punch? IMO, no, he didn't. But it's NOT clear.

[Old and In the Way]

70. "The only thing Zimmer did was run up to Pedro to give him a peice of his

mind"

How do you know this? Did he yell to Pedro...."hey, I running over into your face with my hands up to give you a peice of my mind"?

Come on Beetwasher, it's you that are speculating what his intentions are. Maybe he was going to get in his face and yell, maybe hold him back, maybe he was outraged with Pedro and lost it.

I think, from what I could see, a left hand very close to Pedro's face as he was running into Pedro. Pedro moved to the side and pushed Zimmer on his backside....the redirection and momentum sent him to the ground.

How can you claim Pedro attacked him? Zimmer clearly rushed Pedro with his hands up and moving. If the tables were reversed, I'd have no problem slamming Pedro for going after a 72 year old coach. That was not the case.

Zimmer had no business running around in the middle of a potentially violent mix of athletes ready to rumble.

[Beetwasher]

80. Read my post again

I'm NOT reading any intentions. YOU are reading intentions in claiming a punch was thrown when it's NOT clear. What is clear is Pedro did not simply use Zimmer's momentum against him. He grabbed Zimmer by the head and threw him to the ground. I'm not reading intent at all in Zimmer's actions, I don't know his intent and neither do you, but it didn't look like a punch to me, though it might have been. I'm merely stating what was shown in the video and what was clear. Zimmer was moving towards Pedro and lambasting him and put his hands up. Pedro could have very easily stepped to the side without violently throwing a 72 year old man with a plate in his head to the ground. Give me a break. His behavior is INEXCUSABLE! He beaned a Yankee in the back of the head, threatened the whole team and attacked a 72 year old man, self defense or not.

[Old and In the Way]

101. Let's try this again.

"The only thing Zimmer did was run up to Pedro to give him a peice of his mind and perhaps stop him from moving towards the melee"

You state: he ran up to Pedro "to give him a piece of his mind and perhaps to stop him from moving towards the melee." Pure conjecture on your part.

The facts are he ran up to Pedro, in a threatening manner, but you have no idea what is intentions were. Neither did Pedro. Maybe Pedro saw the eyes of a deranged psycho, maybe Zimmer yelled "I'm gonna rip your throat out".....but that would be conjecture on my part.

If you want to diss Pedro for taunting the dugout, go for it....but for defending himself from Zimmer charging him? Nah.

[SiobhanClancy]

103. You might as well give it up

you won't be able to convince some people. Of course,he was threatening Pedro..even the announcers said so. Still,a hideous incident all around that makes wonder why I bother with watching baseball.

[Beetwasher]

110. If Zimmer was threatening Pedro then every ump who's ever been charged

has a right to throw coaches down in the same manner. Puhleeze. There's no evidence that Zimmer was threatening Pedro in any way. The announcer's in no way stated anything emphatically, they were using qualifiers in assessing the situation such as "might have been" etc., because it WAS unclear from the replay.

[Beetwasher]

107. "Perhaps"

That word is a clue that I meant that part as conjecture. What's not conjecture is the first part of that sentence, because that's in fact what was happening. He was yelling at Pedro and running towards him. You are the one who's is claiming to KNOW FOR CERTAIN that Pedro was DEFENDING himself. How do you know? Managers run up to umpires all the time in the same manner and they are NOT attacking them. It happens ALL the time in baseball when a manager approaches someone in the same fashion. You are claiming self defense. Sorry, but Pedro could have very easily just stepped aside. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that? Please answer that question. Instead he chose to violently attack Zimmer. It was NOT merely self defense. It was a violent move in which he grabbed Zimmer, a 72 years old man with a plate in his head, BY the head and threw him down.

[Old and In the Way]

210. I acknowledge

Pedro was DEFENDING himself for CERTAIN. What managers do with umps vs. what players/coaches do during melees are 2 very different situations.

Yes, a 72 YO man with a plate in his head had no business rushing a player, especially given the tensions of the moment.

Quite foolish for Zimmer to be threatening Pedro like that....

[jus_the_facts]

84. why is it so hard to admit PEDRO was the one to instigate the whole thing.

....regardless of how it all turned out???? PEDRO WAS THE FIRST TO ATTACK WHEN HE HIT OUR BATTER....then kept egging it all on after the fact...THAT'S WHY IT ELEVATED TO WHAT IT DID....plain and simple! :hi:

[papau]

105. That is how I saw it also -Pedro pulled Zimmer toward him while backing up

with a twist to his shoulder hold on Zimmer as Zimmer began to fall.

Pedro did nothing wrong.

Now as to throwing at batters - well Roger is very good at that game - and I have yet hear Zimmer call him on it - indeed - "old fashioned base ball" is the term Zimmer uses.

[maveric]

207. What fucking video are you watching????

Watch it again my jaded friend!

[maveric]

206. Oh Bullshit! Watch the godamn clip on sportcenter.

Zimmer was charging him with a recoiled fist. What the fuck would you had done.
Zimmer is not known for his intellegence BTW!

[VelmaD]

8. I have lots of conflicting feelings on this

Zimmer should have known better at his age than to charge the field and throw a punch. I'm really really glad he didn't get hurt.

Pedro could have really hurt him and didn't but he shouldn't have grabbed him by the head. I'm glad he walked away once Zimmer went down.

Both of them should be ashamed of themselves as should many others involved in that whole scrum on teh field.

[joeybee12]

11. Pedro was only defending himself

It's too bad the guy was 72, but I think Pedro reacted with inflicting the least amount of damage.

We'll see hwo the media (which is largely based in NY) spins this one.

[VelmaD]

13. I agree for the most part...

and if he had grabbed Zimmer by anything other than the head I would be 100 percent on his side on this. I just think he could have handled it better but then I don't know what I would do in the moment.

[SiobhanClancy]

22. He could have handled it a bit better

but being in an emotionally charged situation it's hard to say what anybody would do. It doesn't look like some people saw the same game I did,though. Zimmer came after Pedro. What was he thinking? He's 72,so why is he out on the field trying to get in on the action? All in all,an ugly game...I hate it when these things happen.

[Old and In the Way]

78. I'll bet Zimmer outweighs Pedro by 50 lbs......

Any person running with a head of steam can do damage.....I really don't know what else you'd expect a player to do. I doubt that any player would run away from a 72 year old coach....the papers would have a field day with that.

[Corgigal]

9. Pedro

just wanted to fight someone. He attempted to hit a yankee or two in the head and then visually threatened them with a point to the head. SO, since he didn't want to lose his pitching hand he threw a 70 year old man to the floor by his head.

Please, like Petro couldn't just back up? Damn, even the rest of the Red Sox's stopped fighting and both the Yankees and the Red Sox's watched to be sure Zimmer was okay.

So this is what it become? Can't just clean our clocks on the scoreboard but want to win in the locker room instead? Good luck with that, you just made the Yankees up their game a notch.

You're done.

[DisgustedTX]

14. Bullshit. Zimmer came out trying to attack Martinez

The A's thought we were done too.

See if you win Game 6 when you're down 3-2.

[joeybee12]

16. Glad to know you're psychic

It must be great to be able to peer inside Pedro's mind and see his intentions.

Why are you posting here--you could be making a lot of money elsewhere with that ability.

[DisgustedTX]

57. Yeah, I'm psychic jackass. Like BAT-THROWING AT PIAZZA PSYCHIC

4-2. 6 Games. RED SOX.

[rudeboy666]

12. Zimmer approached swinging

Pedro only pushed him aside AND might have dropped him down(this part is debatable).

Zimmer ran out to physically attack Pedro. Period.

Still, maybe Pedro should have walked/run away. The man is 72 years old!

Even if Zimmerman was completely wrong(which he was!), the sight of him on the ground momentarilly paralysed was disturbing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Pedro's A Punk....

I'm 6'2 215 pounds.... Work out four times a week... I'm forty five years old... If an unarmed seventy two year old guy wants to duke it out with me I'm backing off.....

on edit- it disappoints me that some of my friends on this board would duke it out with a seventy two year old guy....

[joeybee12]

19. Nice inane comment

If someone comes at you, at the spur of the moment you defend yourself. He did it with the least damage possible.

End of story

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I guess you like to mix it up with seventy two year old guys....

how about sixth graders?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

54. That's not really appropriate

"I think you're a Repuke in disguise."

Why can't you have a discussion without hurling ad-hominems?

Pedro beaned a Yankee in the back of the head on purpose and then threatened the whole dugout with getting beaned in the head. That alone makes him the bad guy. The rest is just more shit in the toilet.

[joeybee12]

61. Give it a rest

What's inappropriate is that you seem to be able to read people's intent.

Here are facts:

Zimmer charged him

Pedro defended himself

End of story.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SEAburb]

74. flinging a 72 yr old man, with a plate in his head, to the ground

is inappropriate. Don landed head first and could have been severly injured.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Old and In the Way]

83. The one that's twisting the facts to fit his story.

you.

Zimmer charged Pedro and he had his hands in Pedro's face. Pedro sidestepped and made sure that Zimmer kept moving away from him. Zimmer's momentum brought him down.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. Sorry

And your little avatar betrays your bias....

Martinez could have got out of the way....


The guy was seventy two years old for chrisskes....

I feel sorry for anybody who lets a baseball game blind them to their humanity

Peace03

Brian

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Athletic Grrl]

211. uh no....

Pedro's shove brought him down.

[jus_the_facts]

69. that's the fact no one seems to wanna admit.....

.....it all stinks...but it all started with Pedro...no if's...and's or but's about it!! Thank you!!! x(

[Old and In the Way]

48. I'm 5'9 174 lbs, never work out, and 50.

If an 72 year old makes a running move at me with his fists flying, I move to one side and help let his momentum carry him to the ground....just like Pedro did.

It disappoints me that a 72 year old man reacts like he's 30 something.

I'm sure you'd have felt better to see Pedro turn and run away from Pop....I'm sure the NY newspapers would have let that pass,too.

[SiobhanClancy]

51. Then we would have seen this headline in the NY papers

"Pedro the Coward Runs Away From 72 Year Old Man" or some such. A lose-lose situation for Pedro.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. How big is Pedro Martinez?

Don Zimmer looks like Uncle Fester... He could have stepped out of the way....

[SiobhanClancy]

81. 5'11",170-180..nt

.

[maveric]

208. He's 5'9", 170 lbs

Zimmer is 5'10 250 lbs and had a running start.
You yankee fans are a bunch of gaoddamn whiners!

[BigMcLargehuge]

188. uncle fester... LOL

this made me smile.

[Beetwasher]

15. From the Replay's It Doesn't Necessarily Look Like Zimmer Was

throwing a punch. I don't care what anyone who's defending Pedro says. It's not clear at all Zimmer was throwing a punch. To me, from the footage I've seen, where you only see Zimmer pretty much at the last second coming up from the bottom of the screen, lot's happened at once and it's hard to tell, but it looks like he was just putting his hands up to stop Pedro. It didn't look like a punch. It didn't even look like his hand was in a fist actually, so how could it have been a puch?

[UnAmericanJoe]

23. Hands up to stop Pedro from doing what???

Watch Pedro closely. He makes no aggressive move towards Zimmer at all.

Pedro deserves a ton of blame for the ugliness that happened today. But the Zimmer thing was not his fault. Zimmer got worked up (as would anyone) and aggressively approached Pedro with his hands out.

Pedro stepped out of the way and (maybe too roughly) slung him to the ground. It looks bad but Pedro certainly wasn't the aggressor.

He was in a no win situation at that point. He could have...

A. Run away. (and people would have laughed and said what a chicken Pedro is)
B. Stand there and let Zimmer attack him.
C. Throw a punch and knock Zimmer out
or D. Try and get out of the way and keep Zimmer from hitting him.

None of those options are particularly appealing.

[Beetwasher]

30. Pedro was going toward the melee

Zimmer was going towards Pedro. They were moving towards each other. Zimmer could have been putting his hands up to stop Pedro from getting any closer. Yes, it was evident at the very least that Zimmer was going to get in his face and yell, so putting his hands up, possibly to Pedro's chest to stop him going forward is another possibility. To me, it looked like his hands were coming to stop Pedro from moving forward anymore as he got in his face. I'd like to see the footage again, but it didn't come across as a punch to me, I don't think his hand was in a fist. I think he had his palms sort of outward as if the stop Pedro. But it happened quickly and Pedro moved very quickly and took him down by his head.

Choice D is certainly a much better option. It would have taken no effort at all for Pedro to simply sidestep Zimmer. None, he could have done that easily. Instead he did what he did. There's no excuse IMO.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. D sounds good to me...

[jus_the_facts]

25. Exactly.....he was grabbing at his jersey......NOT PUNCHING.....

....and Pedro started it ALL...with what looked to me as him bragging about hitting somebody in the head....then what the fuck was the deal with the Sox's grounds keeper jumping in the bull pen and starting a fight????? There better be some stern warnings going out about all this hostility IMHO!!

:hi: Russ!!! What a game....glad it went our way today and the curse lives on!!! :D

[Beetwasher]

32. Hey darlin'!

Yanks vs. Cubs. Yanks in 5! ;-)

[jus_the_facts]

35. Yeah.....sounds mighty fine to me......

...and *I* wanna BE a part of it....NEW YORK...NEEEW YOOORK!! :*

[stopbush]

36. Note to BoSox Fans: Even at 72 years old

not even Zimmer was around the last time your team won the WS.

OK, that was a cheap shot.

Yankees/Cubs - Yanks in 6.

[Braden]

218. check out Zimmers resume and you will see

that he had a huge part in keeping the sox from winning the World Series.

[sasquatch]

27. It looks like he was going to shove him

I don't blame him for throwing him to the ground if I was managing I don't want anybody striking my players

[zbdent]

18. Dunno. Why don't we ask those Republicans who called the

police when one lone, aged Democrat (Pete Stark) stayed behind to keep a vote from going on, while the other Democrats in the House were holed up in the library reviewing the legislation that was just handed to them?

Seems some physically fit 50-year-old Repuke (Scott McInnis) was worried when an old man (71-year-old Stark) threatened him by saying "come over here and say that".

[DS1]

26. because a 70 year old idiot was charging him full speed

fuck him, and stay down you stupid old codger!

[UnAmericanJoe]

29. There is no reason

Why everyone here can't discuss this respectfully.
If people can only look at it through (pinstripe/bosox) colored glasses then they need to take a deep breath and calm down.
(something both Pedro and Zimmer would have been wise to do)

[kanrok]

28. Pedro probably thought the "Gerbil"

was gonna head-butt him with the steel plate. Drop him like a bad habit, I say.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Deleted

[kanrok]

40. It's satire.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. I'll Delete My Post....

Too quick on the trigger


Sorry

Brian

[SiobhanClancy]

33. What's a 72 year old man doing out on the field anyway?

Why not stay in the dugout and let the younger guys handle it? Since he did decide to get in on the action,obviously it was his choice and he is choosing not to have his age be a factor. And he was the aggressor against Pedro...I SAW it. An unfortunate incident,but he should have stayed where he belonged...being 72 and all.

[HuckleB]

38. Perhaps.

But Pedro had no more reason to be there than Zimmer. His health is paramount to the Sox chances.

All Zimmer did was run up to him, intent -- from every angle I can see -- to give Pedro a piece of his mind. And Pedro deserves a piece of Zimmer's mind about now. Zimmer almost died from a pitch to the head when he played. He knows, like no one else, how sick and dangerous Pedro's toss at Garcia was. And that's not even mentioning Pedro's gestures toward the Yankees dugout.

I am no Yankee fan. On the contrary, they have broken my heart by beating the teams I rooted for repeatedly. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give Pedro an excuse he doesn't have coming.

[SiobhanClancy]

44. I guess we watched a different game

From every angle I see,it looks as if Zimmer is attacking Pedro. However,I do think Pedro could have handled it better,and I'm not pleased with those gestures toward the dugout either. An ugly incident,whoever gets the blame. But I still maintain that if you can't run with the big dogs,you should stay on the porch. Zimmer put himself..at age 72...in a situation that was potentially dangerous to a man his age. That was his choice,so his age should not be an issue. My guess is that HE probably wouldn't want it to be.

[HuckleB]

49. How?

I was in a bar full of Cubs fan who were rooting for the Sox. What we saw was a guy who clearly wanted to give Pedro a piece of his mind. He was running up to him, but that doesn't mean he was going to attack him physically. That was obvious to the entire crowd. The story remained the same when I went over to a pal's house to join a pro-Red Sox party. I didn't get this read on things until I stopped in here. So I'm struggling to understand how Zimmer attacked Pedro when he never got close enough to him to do anything in the first place. Sorry, but I'm not a pre-emptive strike kind of guy.

OK. It's done. It's in the past. I'm done discussing it. I'd rather watch baseball.

Good luck tomorrow, Sox fans.

Cheers!

[joeybee12]

55. Lest we forget all of Roger's tosses over the years

Don't make the Yankees out to be saints, and don't act as if Zimmer was simply coming over for a little chat.

Being 72 years old doesn't excuse his assinine behavior.

[HuckleB]

58. Trying to divert, are we?

.

[joeybee12]

63. Not diverting, just pointing out facts

Which some people here don't seem to notice.

Zimmer charged

Pedor defended himself

End of story.

[Beetwasher]

62. You're making excuse for Pedro's atrocious behavior

It's ok that Pedro beaned someone in the back of the head, threatened the rest of the team w/ the same treatment, then threw a 72 year old man to the ground? I'm not so sure his attack on Zimmer was self defense, it's hard to tell from the videos whether Zimmer was throwing a punch. I don't think he was, but an honest person would have to admit it was hard to tell. But whatever happened, Pedro would have no problem simply moving aside. A fat 72 year old man is not that agile. Pedro is a bad sport and has no class. It's obvious. Regardless of ANYONE'S behavior in the past. See the first sentence if you have any doubt. If you want to defend him and excuse that behavior it only means your blinded by your team partisanship.

[Punkingal]

199. Why do you keep saying Pedro hit someone in the head?

He did not hit anyone in the head. He hit the guy in the back, at shoulder level.

[FlashHarry]

45. Why is a 72-year-old man charging Pedro Martinez???

That just seems plain stupid to me. It looked like Pedro was trying to get him out of the way without hurting him. If he had meant business, he could've laid him out flat with a punch.

[Old and In the Way]

59. Exactly.....what if he had hurt himself in the melee......who'd

have been at fault? The gerbil, of course.

Bill Lee gave Zimmer that name.....

[Blitz]

41. Two things

One: Manny should have gotten tossed. There was no excuse for his histrionics. He was probably embarassed by the fact that he bailed out on a pitch that was nowhere near him.

Two: I sure wouldn't want to be Manny facing a Yankee pitcher late in the game if the Yankees are leading big (especially if that pitcher is Clemens ... in New York ... but the Sox would have to win another game or 2 for that to happen, so it's a moot point).

[opiate69]

50. About Ramirez..

"Manny should have gotten tossed. There was no excuse for his histrionics. He was probably embarassed by the fact that he bailed out on a pitch that was nowhere near him."

Easily said from the comfort of your home. Clemens' fastball has a tendency to run in on right-handed batters. Clemens also has a history of retaliating when one of his batters gets hit. All Ramirez was able to pick up on was the fact that the pitch was running out of the strike zone high. I suspect you'd be bailing out under the same circumstances too.

[Blitz]

86. I'm not a professional ball player

who sees thousands of pitches a year. He walked into the batter's box scared and acted like it. He bailed on a ball that was on the plate and he was bailing before the ball was anywhere near him. He embarassed himself in the batter's box and then he embarassed himself on the field. The way he swung at strike 3, which was low and a foot outside, showed that all he wanted to do was to go sit down.

The fact is, the ball was nowhere hear him and Manny had absolutely no business walking towards the mound holding a baseball bat. On the bright side, he'll probably continue to play scared for the rest of the series.

[opiate69]

90. me either, but..

"He walked into the batter's box scared and acted like it."

As would I, given Clemens' history of goonish retaliation.

"He bailed on a ball that was on the plate and he was bailing before the ball was anywhere near him."

Again, when a pitch is coming at you at 90 mph, you react before the thing is anywhere near you. Like I said before, Clemens' fastball has a tendency to run in on right handed hitters. Meaning, when Ramirez reacted to the pitch it was out over the plate, but could very well have run in on him quickly.

"On the bright side, he'll probably continue to play scared for the rest of the series."

As will Posada, and probably a few other Yankees. Never underestimate the value of a good psych-out in sports.

[Blitz]

96. The Yankees don't play scared

That's why they're the Yankees. And the point is, whatever Ramirez thought as the pitch was coming in, he started his hissy fit AFTER he could see that the pitch came nowhere close to hitting him.

Some people aren't champions because they just don't deserve to be.

I do feel kinda bad for Nomar, though. Maybe he can learn to play right field or third and join the Yankees . . .

[Old and In the Way]

89. Both benches had been warned.

The pitch was high and inside. IMHO, Manny was acting a bit....probably trying to get CLemens tossed. Unfortunately, he wasn't sucessful.... :-(

[jus_the_facts]

56. Yep....it's all over now.....and the Yankees WON!!

....*singin'*...so close no matter how faaaaar...couldn't be much more from the heart.....and nothing else matters! :evilgrin:

[bunk76]

43. "Maybe the lack of class....

shown by Boston? I only have one response to that,F.U.

[DisgustedTX]

60. Guess no one saw Walker almost get taken out on the following play

If Kareem Garcia found it necessary to try and take out Todd Walker, I wish Pedro had thrown at his fu**king head on his next at bat.

Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and the 5-7th innings were what everyone expected - great pitching.

[Uzybone]

202. right back at you

have a nice life

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

65. Even as a Yankee fan, I have to say Zimmer was attacking

I think he forgot he was an old man. It happens.

[Shakespeare]

76. Wow....thanks for your honesty!

And here's to a continued exciting (but hopefully less, um, eventful) series, for both teams.

[WindRavenX]

68. Maybe it's because Pedro's a classless bitch?

Honestly, I always respected him for his tremendous ability; but after tonight, he has replaced Barry Bonds for my most hated player.
I'm all for brush back pitches, which both Clemens AND Pedro use. They should use those pitches, as it is their style to establish that they OWN the plate.
However, throwing at someone's head (Garcia), and then pointing to your temple and mouthing off at the visitor's dugout is simply unacceptable. Yes, Clemens is guilty of headhunting, this much is true. However, as to my knowledge, he has never done such a cocky, irresponsible act as to taunt the visitor's dugout and catcher threatening a pitch in the head.
Zim came after Pedro, so while I think he was a bit excessive in his use of force, he had the right to defend himself. But that didn't call for him to throw Zim down WWF style to the ground.
Pedro didn't have his game today, so he tries to start shit with the Yankees to distract them. Worked well.
Pedro showed he is a classless, gutless pitcher tonight. Then again, this isn't the only time he's started fights. He's started fights with the Devil Rays (of all teams!), and then has hid in the locker room until they went away, afraid to face his actions.
Sorry Pedro, you've got the skill, but no class.

[MrBenchley]

73. Got it in one...

What a scummy thing...even scummier than Fick in the Braves-Marlin series whacking the first baseman's arm....

[Beetwasher]

87. That display of trashtalk was one of the most despicable

I've ever seen. Especially coming after beaning Garcia. The only thing I'd disagree w/ in your post is whether Zimmer had any intent to attack Pedro. I'm not so sure. It looked to me like he was raising his hands to stop Pedro from moving forward. It didn't even look like his hand was in fist.

[WindRavenX]

94. The thing with Zimmer is this:

He himself nearly DIED because he was hit IN THE HEAD by a pitch back in the good ol' days...
Zimmer is extremely sensitive to headhunting, with good reason. There should be NO REASON to throw at the head: throw at the ass, the back- NOT THE HEAD. This goes for Clemens too, because I know he's done it in the past as well.
It takes a lot to get Zim pissed.

[Old and In the Way]

95. Please......

"Yes, Clemens is guilty of headhunting, this much is true. However, as to my knowledge, he has never done such a cocky, irresponsible act as to taunt the visitor's dugout and catcher threatening a pitch in the head."

Clemens used to pitch for us, remember? We know what Clemens is capable of. He's no better, no worse than Pedro as far as being cocky and taunts go....

But Clemens has hit a whole lot more batters than Pedro....and I know Clemens has fantastic control of his pitches...

Hey, I suspect that you see things differently than I do, though....big surprise there!

:-)

[WindRavenX]

98. But

He has never directly pointed to his head, and pretty much tell the entire world he was going to hit everyone in the dugout.
I understand though, Pedro and Clemens are alike in a lot of ways.
I just think this incident seperates the two. I'm not a fan of Clemens, for the record, but even he wouldn't start a fight like that.

[Braden]

217. Pedro and Clemens

Did you know.

Pedro has never actually hit anyone in the head.
Has clemens ever hit anyone in the head. Hmmm? Let me think.

Did Clemens once threaten Umpire Terry Cooney by saying "I Know Where You live" after Cooney squeezed the strike zone on him?


One last time. Zimmer charged Pedro and threw a punch. The coaches are held to a higher standard and are charged with being the peacemakers. They are Not asked to throw haymakers. Sounds like the screws in Zimmers head need tightening.

Pedro never started a fight with the Devil Rays. Good god, Where do you get this erroneous crap from?

The Devil Rays threw at 6 red sox batters in one game. Pedro hit one guy while he was throwing a PERFECT GAME.

[sasquatch]

72. A 72 year old man should know better then attack a young man

if he doesn't he deserves to eat grass like Pedro made him do.

[HEyHEY]

182. Yeah I can't tell you how many times ....

I've had to explain that to the police!

[sasquatch]

200. LOL...me too

He got what he deserved when he came after Padro.

[ProudGerman]

75. Pedro showed plenty of restraint

by not dropping the old man with a stiff jab. You come at someone with your arms raised, don't be surprised if you end up on your face like a hot head with one foot in the grave.

Watch the replay. Pedro is walking towards the action, diverts a little because someone has caught his attention. Read his lips, he says "what....what?" Roid rage Don enters the pic, moving pretty fast for a 72 year old, and where is his left hand? Right by Pedro's head, like he was gonna slap him. Who knows, maybe arthritis makes it too painful to make a fist really quick. Pedro grabs him by the head, and shoves him aside. With the grace of a charging bull, he does a face plant on the infield grass. Don was probably running out there with the idea that he's 72 and no one would dare do anything to him.

Got exactly what he deserved.

Oh, and if Pedro wanted to hit someone, he wouldn't graze a shoulder blade. Besides, what motivation did Pedro have for intentionally hitting him?

[WindRavenX]

82. What motivation?

He was struggling all game- he threw 1 fastball up until that point.
Up comes Garcia who got a double off him the previous at bat.
Pedro's control was good that game- him throwing that pitch at Garcia was intentional. Oh, and you DO NOT motion to your temple and then point to the visitor's dugout and taunt them that you're going to hit them- that's beyond outrageous and classless.
Pedro wanted to start something.

[Old and In the Way]

106. You misunderstood what Pedro was signaling.

He was telling the Yankees, "I've got a headache...you guys have any aspirin?" At least, I'm pretty sure that's what his hand signals meant... :-)

[WindRavenX]

113. LOL

And then he was screaming to Jorge, "Come, let us have fondue and champaign after the game" right? :)

[opiate69]

85. And something else...

Why am I not surprised Jeff Nelson's stupid ass was involved in the bullpen fracas? Once again, Yankees... this Mariners fan thanks you from the bottom of his black little heart for taking that 2 pitch throwing, whining ass, locker room cancer off of our hands.... enjoy.

[Corgigal]

88. That guy who jumped in the warm up

bull pen was a grounds keeper for Boston.

[opiate69]

93. I know that...

But, Nelson has been known to be a mouthy prick in the bullpen. At Safeco field, you can stand right next to the bullpen, literally 4 feet away from the pitchers, and the only thing separating you from them is a chain link fence. The stories of Nelson's "interactions" with fans are somewhat legendary around here now.

[WindRavenX]

97. I don't like Nelson, but from what I head, he didn't start it

FOX said that a ground crew member was harassing both Nelson and Weaver. Nelson didn't start it, I think.

[opiate69]

100. Doesn't matter...

Professionals ignore the harassment. Kinda like Ichiro does every time he sets foot in Yankee stadium.

[WindRavenX]

102. Ok, I agree

But there's a difference between Ichiro ignoring the FANS and a player ignoring a team EMPLOYEE.
Not that it makes it better, as Nelson could've handled it better, IMO.

[opiate69]

108. It's cool..

That's all I was really trying to say.. I mean, the bullpen was full of pitchers, catchers, coaches etc.. but they were nowhere to be seen, and Nelson was right in the middle of it... hopefully the asshole groundskeeper has to apply for unemployment monday. Hell, maybe he'll even have to face some charges. I do have to admit, though.. this is classic Yankees/Sox rivalry baseball. Almost makes me miss New England.

[Corgigal]

99. Got ya

Nelson isn't my favorite guy and he use to mouth off to Torre before you took him and lucky us, we got him back (HA) BUT running your mouth is part of the game. You can sit next to your arch enemy and talk each other up all game long. Jumping onto the field takes it out of the verbal stage and it's not acceptable.

Damn, baseball use to be for families to enjoy. Not this lame game and it was disgusting.

[RedSox02]

104. Pedro is my favorite player, here's my take

I obvioulsy must have some bias, but then again I think alot of people dislike Pedro too and are assuming the worst. Everyone is saying that we can't tell what Pedro or Zimmer were up to, yet everyone is assuming Pedro was pointing to his head telling the Yankees he wanted to hit them in the head. However, we do not know what he was saying. It looked like he was arguing with just Posada. Also Garcia slid hard to try and injure Todd Walker. It looked bad but I am interested in hearing what Pedro actually said to them.

As far as Zimmer, I CLEARLY saw him taking a swing at Pedro. I feel bad for Zimmer. It was unfortunate. MAYBE Pedro could have done it differently, I don't know. However Pedro also could have done alot worse. Look again, why was Zimmer's hand moving like he was trying to knock Pedro in the head? Also, Pedro's pitch to Garcia was not at the head, it would have hit him below the shoulders had Garcia not ducked. It looked intentional to me, but I don't know why he would do it given that there were no outs and two runners on. Again I wish I knew exactly what they were thinking. Everyone including myself is just guessing right now.

[jus_the_facts]

109. I saw it all over and over and over...Zims hands were at Pedro's chest....

...*grabbing* at his jersey...no swing...no punch........but whatever I guess everybody will see it however they wanna see it....hope they'll show the replay a whole lot more so all who think they saw it differently will stand corrected...and I agree....I hope they'll get the audio of what PEDRO was actually saying as he pointed to his head...cuz that sure looked like taunting to me! :shrug:

[RedSox02]

112. When I first saw it, I was like oh sh*t

I thought Pedro shoved Zimmer in frustration. Then I saw the replay. Zimmer came at him hard. Look at his left hand. That is what I was seeing. I guess we see it differently but I really don't know what else to say about that left from Zimmer. It looked like a swing to me, not like he was trying to grab him or anything.

P.S. If Zimmer clocked Pedro or caused him to twist an ankle, the Yankee fans would be laughing saying "way to go Zim".

[Old and In the Way]

111. Good points....

Really, it doesn't make sense to hit Garcia at that point does it? Sometimes pitches do get away.....

[Blitz]

114. Well, the important thing is

The Red Sox are done. Pedro has pitched his last game this season. Clemens' next (and probably last) start will be game 2 of the World Series in New York.

Bring on the Cubbies!!

P.S. Even the mighty Weuxf Gods have no power where the Curse of the Bambino is concerned!!

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RedSox02]

116. Tomorrow is crucial

If you guys lose tomorrow it is up for grabs. If you win it is just about over. I am not really a cocky fan. A lot of Sox and Yankee fans are into taunting. Not me. I really just don't want to see teh Yankees win again. Steinbrenner drives me nuts, and my great grandfather, who is still alive god bless him, deserves to see the Sox finally win one over the Yankees.

[WindRavenX]

121. Good to hear that

Here I have been subjected to very cocky, obnoxious fans.
I have said very little about my team here, although I wear my Yanks jersey.
Taunting is fun, but when people start getting drunk...then things can get ugly :(

[Kathy in Cambridge]

115. I was at the game-Zimmer threw the first punch and

Pedro blocked him. Pedro had to protect his arm-he was pitching. Zimmer has had a temper problem from the time he managed the Red Sox in the 70s.

On edit: we had a birds eye view of the incident and it wasn't pretty.

[RedSox02]

118. Somewhere BIll Lee was smiling

That guy hated Zimmer. He must have laughed his ass off, and wished it could have been him.

[SiobhanClancy]

119. Finally..someone who was actually there..

Don't think that that will convince those who think they know better,though. What an ugly game! What was the mood of the fans at the end of the game?(I can imagine)

:hi:

[RedSox02]

120. Any media quotes?

Pedro doesn't talk, so I guess we'll have to lsiten to what Psoada and others said about what exactly happened.

[Shakespeare]

125. Yup....I also think it's telling....

That the umps didn't eject Pedro from the game. ESPECIALLY coming on the heels of their warning, if Martinez had really acted out of line--in other words, done anything but act in self defense--he'd have been outta there.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

135. There was a lot of tension at Fenway

I was trying to use my cell phone to call family members seated in different sections of the park but it was so loud I couldn't hear.

I can't believe the cry-baby Yankee fans who are whining about Pedro hitting Karim Garcia when Roger has had a long history of beaning batters (Piazza being the most infamous incident). It is part of the game. No one mentioned his slide into Todd Walker that almost injured him,but instead focus on the unprofessional behavior of the Red Sox. It goes both ways. KArim left the game for injuring himself while pummeling a Fenway employee, who Jeff Nelson assaulted. Classy guys.

Despite the hoopla, the crowd was remarkably calm and well-behaved. There were some drunks in the bleachers as usual (so says my nephew who was seated among them out there). There weren't too many incidents, maybe because they stopped serving beer in the 4th inning after the hoopla. :-(

[Blitz]

143. "Karim left the game for injuring himself

while pummeling a Fenway employee"

My god, do you get dizzy when you spin like that? Hint: there were cameras there. The whole world knows that Garcia didn't "pummel" anybody. So much for you as an objective observer.

Martinez threw a fastball at a guy's head after he had been touched up by the Yanks. He put his ego ahead of his team and a man's health. Then, knowing that he would never have to step into the batter's box, he threatened to injure other players.

Punk. I'm glad he got the loss.

[Blitz]

126. You might want to look at the replay

Pedro grabbed Zimmer's head with both hands and twisted, throwing Zimmer to the ground. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Zimmer's neck was hurt.

BTW, Zimmer was taken to an area hospital in an ambulance after the game.

[Shakespeare]

129. See my post #125

For a point I haven't seen anyone make yet (if someone else has made that point, then my apologies).

[Blitz]

133. I saw it

I also know that the umps knew that they were in Fenway and they may have had a full-scale riot on their hands if they tossed Pedro in that situation. I also know that umps don't look at replays and may not have seen what happened. Besides, I never said that Pedro should have been tossedfor his altercation with Zimmer. If anything, he should have gotten the heave for threatening the Yankees AFTER he threw at Garcia's head. A disgusting move that did nothing but set up his teammates for retaliation.

I have said that Ramirez should have been tossed for his bush league hissy fit that put everyone in danger.

[opiate69]

139. for chrissake....

"I have said that Ramirez should have been tossed for his bush league hissy fit that put everyone in danger."

Take your ass down to a batting cage tomorrow and set the machine to 90 mph. Then come back and tell me how comfortable Ramirez should have been. Your asshole Clemens has a history of throwing at people's heads. Ramirez, being the best hitter inthe lineup, amkes a pretty damned good target. If you were anything more than a casual (bandwagon) baseball fan you would know that any fastball at head level will always elicit the same response Ramirez had.

[Blitz]

158. Are you nuts?

The pitch was ON THE PLATE. If it had been lower it would have been a strike. If Ramirez charged the mound after every eye-high fastball he saw he'd be doing sprints to and from the mound all season.

Again, he went to the mound, holding a bat AFTER he saw that the pitch was nowhere near his head.

As for his response, I note that Ramirez wasn't exactly sprinting out to Roger (and didn't drop his bat). He was going just slowly enough to be "restrained" by his teammates and made a big show of fighting with them to get to Clemens.

Punk.

[Shakespeare]

141. Oh, puh-leeze....

That's really, really reaching.

[opiate69]

147. not, it's not...

When a batter is standing at the plate, he picks up the release point of the pitch and the approximate height. A 90 mph fastball reaches the plate in about 4/10ths of a second. That means, before the pitch even gets 1/4 of the way to the plate, the batter must decide whther to swing, take, or bail. Ramirez was expecting to get buzzed, and when he picked up on the ball, it was at head level.

on edit: just a little further info for Blitz..

[Shakespeare]

149. uh...not what I was commenting on....

nice try, though

[opiate69]

152. D'oh!

My bad.. I thought you were responding to me... sorry..

[Shakespeare]

154. No problem

:hi:

[name not needed]

136. hmm no

''Pedro blocked him. Pedro had to protect his arm-he was pitching. Zimmer has had a temper problem from the time he managed the Red Sox in the 70s.''

no. pedro threw a 72 year old man with a metal plate in his head to the ground. zimmer didnt even throw a punch.

[SiobhanClancy]

117. It's rather funny that people can see the same thing..

and see it totally differently,mostly depending on which team you support.Not only that,but to be CERTAIN that you are correct and that you know what someone's intentions were,let alone what actually happened. I imagine this will be discussed for a long time,in a mostly partisan manner(just like politics).

[jus_the_facts]

122. but the point of it all is there is NO excuse for throwing a 72yr old man

...to the ground....NONE...Don't give a flying fuck thru a flaming hoola hoop about who's to blame. :evilfrown:

[SiobhanClancy]

123. I think we are clear on one thing

Zimmer is 72 YEARS OLD!!!! No need to repeat it...by now,I know his age better than my own.
Peace
:)

[RedSox02]

124. THen you let him hit you?

If a crazed 72 year old guy attacks you on the street, do you let him hit you?

[jus_the_facts]

127. Zim has been taken to the hospital in an ambulance......

...just so ya'll know....guess Pedro's disgusting act will be loved by ya'll that much more now?? :puke:

[RedSox02]

128. Unfortunate BUT

He went after Pedro. Pedro did not punch him, Pedro did not attack him or try to injure him. Pedro sidestepped him.

[Blitz]

130. Pedro grabbed his head with both hands

and twisted him to the ground. Of course, if you want to live in an alternate reality, that's your business.

[RedSox02]

131. No I saw that too

He didn't really grab his neck and twist though as you say. He didn't even push him hard. Zim's momentum from the fact that he was CHARGING Pedro made him easy to take down.

[jus_the_facts]

132. sidestepped him my fuckin' ass.....MY GOD....ya'll are in la la land......

....open your eyes and fuckin' WATCH THE REPLAY AGAIN....AFTER THE CUBS GAME....sure they'll show it...but you'll just keep justifying it all to yourselves regardless. :evilfrown:

[RedSox02]

134. Gee I only saw it 125 times on FOx

Just like FOx showed Johnny Damons collision 100 tiems in a row the other night. WHat should Pedro have done? Tell me please so I can know.

I have no real beef with Zimmer. I understand his getting caught in the moment but it was an unfortnaute incident that he brought on by charging Pedro. What do you do if your PEdro?

[jus_the_facts]

137. must be anal rententive vision....

:shrug:

PEDRO SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THROWING AT ANYONES HEAD THEN BRAGGING ABOUT IT....THAT IS THE ONLY REASON IT BECAME AS INTENSE AS IT DID...BUT NEVERFUCKIN' MIND! :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

140. Dude, I was THERE. Zimmer CHARGED Pedro

I sit behind the dugout and can hear the players' conversations. Zimmer attempted to throw a left at Pedro, who weighs about 160 lbs. Zimmer's momentum made him teeter off balance. I was sitting with two other couples-one of whom is a Yankee fan-and we all concur. Zimmer instigated the whole thing, at at 72, he should know better.

The umps did a great job.

[jus_the_facts]

142. first I'm NOT a dude....second I couldn't care less what you THINK.....

....you saw....there's NO excuse what so ever for what that asshole did and that's the end of it....believe whatever you want to...I don't give a fuck...PEDRO isn't the one in the fuckin' HOSPITAL right now is he? :puke:

[SiobhanClancy]

145. You don't even believe someone who was actually there??

Time to get a grip and calm down. Zimmer is no doubt being checked out,as is prudent for a man of his years under the circumstances.

[Shakespeare]

148. Do you have a link RE Zimmer being in the hospital?

I'd really love to see it. It appears he suffered a cut to the bridge of his nose, and that is all.

Until someone link me to something showing that poor, frail (steamrolling rhino) Zimmer is hospitalized, I'm not buying it.

[Blitz]

155. I actually saw him on TV

being put in an ambulance on a stretcher.

Still need a link?

[jus_the_facts]

156. I WATCHED THEM PUT HIM IN THE AMBULANCE WITH MY OWN TWO EYES.......

....DURING A GAMEBREAK! *DELETED CURSINGS AT YOU* :eyes:

[RedSox02]

157. I watched him swing at Pedro with my own two eyes!

Sorry I couldn't resist!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

160. Me too, RedSox02, since I was actually THERE

:hi:

[RedSox02]

163. How much you pay for those seats?

Or did youg et them face value/season tickets. Would have been a memorable game. I just could not fathom paying a ticket agency those prices. I tried online but couldn't get any when they went on sale.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

167. My husband and his brothers have had seasons tickets for decades

That's why I married him

;-)

Just kidding, but it sure did make him more attractive!!

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SiobhanClancy]

171. Dudette,you're getting a bit out of line now,don't you think?

If Rational Rose(who was there)says what happened,then I'm sure she knows what she's talking about. Perhaps YOU would have been "ogling asses" if you had been in her place,but she was there to watch the game(what a concept)

[Name removed]

174. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

178. Why so much anger? What did WE ever do to YOU? Seriously...

we cheer for the Sox because we were born in New England. It's tradition.

You don't know us and you have made personal attacks, which are against forum rules.

Please take a deep breath and try to get some perspective.

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

186. jus_the_facts, we're concerned about you, baseball is only A GAME

not the end of the world. Not life and death.

Now, put me and any other Red Sox fan on ignore. BTW there's TONS of us on DU.

[Name removed]

190. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SiobhanClancy]

191. LOL..I bet I get the last word...

hopefully you'll wake tomorrow refreshed and with a healthier outlook on things:)
Cheers

[jus_the_facts]

172. because you all seem to want to defend the indefensable....

.....there's NO reason AT ALL to throw an old man to the ground...then try to twist the facts around to suit yourselves...it's fuckin' crazy....and I relish the fact that we won...but there is NO comfort in seeing how insane ya'll are to defend a world class athlete who knew he was blowing the game and decided to start shit tby bragging about hitting another player....if it were the other way around *I* wouldn't be defending it....so take your comment and stick it along with your sore loser attitude GEEEEEEEEZE!!! :eyes:

[SiobhanClancy]

175. *yawn*

Now you're just being tedious,and I am bored. Telling me to "stick it"?lol..I don't think I've heard a comment like that directed at myself since I was in grammar school. Peace,dear child:)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

193. Obnoxious sore winner yankee fans- nothing new here

Hey, let's spot the Yankees another win and then pull the rug out from under them.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

177. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SiobhanClancy]

179. I'm concerned about you

It's baseball,and you are overreacting BIG time. I'd think about what really might be troubling me,if I were you.
Take Care:)

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jus_the_facts]

185. see you just did it again....PERSONAL attack.....

....and somehow it's all me doing it...laughable!!! :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

187. I thought you were putting me on ignore?

:shrug:

Can't help yourself, can you? You have to have the last word...

[jus_the_facts]

192. yet again.....pot calling the kettle black......

....you'll go on ignore after you stop attacking ME...no go right ahead and get that last word in by ALL means.

[SiobhanClancy]

161. Who are you cursing at,deleted or not?

hope it isn't me:)

[Shakespeare]

166. Thanks for the "cursings"....I'd still like a link

Specifically, one that addresses Zimmer's grave condition.

sarcasm/off

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

170. I believe, as far as netiquette goes....

The individual alleging something is the one who bears the responsibility for finding a supporting "goddamn" link.

:eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

153. You're delusional-we saw him from behind with his raised left arm

Poor Don-he has had a temper problem since he managed the Red Sox. I guess Pedro shouldn't have defended his multi-million dollar arm.

The indignation on the part of you Yankees fans is truly hilarious, given the Yankees' long history of dirty play.

:puke:

[jus_the_facts]

159. sure seems PEDRO's temper started the whole goddamn thing.....

...but that's NOT the point....la la la la la land you're in...ya'll have gone as insane with defeat...not unlike our distinguished nemisis on the RIGHT! :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

146. Pedro Martinez

5'11

180 pounds

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/2711/index.html

[opiate69]

150. histrionics..

If he needed to be taken to the hospital, in an ambulance no less, why wait until after the game?

[Blitz]

138. Title of CNNSI article recapping the game:

Fenway fracas
Clemens outpitches, outclasses Martinez in brawl-marred Game 3

That pretty much says it all.

P.S. It was good to see Johnny Damon playing well. Hmmm ... if the Yanks put him in center and move Bernie to right next year . . .

[Shakespeare]

144. And right back atcha with one from the AP...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-alcs-redsox&prov=ap&type=lgns

Martinez takes loss, but won't back down

snip:

Both benches cleared, and Zimmer headed for Martinez. When Zimmer lunged at the 31-year-old three-time Cy Young winner, Martinez sidestepped him, grabbed him by the head with both hands and tossed him to the ground.

snip again:

``Sometimes you're 70 in your body, but you still think you're 40 in your mind. And that's Zim,'' Chicago Cubs manager Dusty Baker said before Game 4 of the NLCS.

``He was upset I guess about the series of events that happened. I hope he's not hurt. But Pedro appeared he was defending himself. He didn't swing at Zim or anything, just sort of threw him off to the side.''

[RedSox02]

151. NY Post Headline tomorrow:

"Pedro seeks out, Pummels Defenseless Zim from behind"

[Blitz]

162. NY Post Headline on Tuesday

Socking it To 'Em: Yanks Finish off the Sox
Cubbies on their way to the Bronx for Game 1

[opiate69]

164. NY Times headline Monday

"Nelly arrested for assault & battery"

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2003/news/story?id=1636123

[Blitz]

176. That story was just debunked

On ESPN they said that the AP had it wrong and that the Boston PD was saying that they were not charging anyone at this time; they're just looking into it.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

184. You know, when you start to insult people

you shouldn't be surprised when they make you look foolish. The difference between you and me is that I actually read the story that you linked to. Here is what is says, in relevant part:

"Boston police say two New York Yankees players will be charged with assault and battery after an incident in the Yankees bullpen tonight." (emphasis mine to help you comprehend)

That has been specifically debunked.

Now, you want to quote the part of the story that you linked to where it says that Boston police are "considering charges" or would you just prefer to slink off now?

[opiate69]

189. and...

until they come out and say that they will not be filing charges, the story is not debunked.

On edit, ESPN.com still has the original story up. Do you have anything to back up your alleged debunking??

[Blitz]

194. You have a comprehension problem

As I said, on ESPN television, right after the Cubs game, the sportscaster said: "We'd like to clear up two erroneous stories. First, the AP story that two Yankee players will be charged with assault is incorrect. Boston police have said that they are looking into the matter but are not planning on charging anyone at this time. They are in the preliminary stages of looking into it . . ."

Now, tell me, where in the story that you linked do the words "considering charges" appear?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

195. Paul Williams-Fenway Employee Attacked by Yankees-in Deaconness Hospital

On my local news (WBZ): Paul Williams, Fenway employee, was attacked by Jeff Nelson after he clapped when the Red Sox pulled off a double play. Karim Garcia joined in the fray, and the Boston Police are considering filing charges against Nelson and Garcia.

I will post a link when one is available.

[Blitz]

196. Here's the updated link

Where the words "will be" are replaced with the words "may be." All the difference in the world:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2003/news/story?id=1636123

Edited for typo.

[opiate69]

197. Still, not "debunked"

I was wrong for claiming a story said "considering charges", however, like I said before, until they come out and say "no charges will be filed", the story is not debunked.

[Blitz]

198. That's a little like me saying

"Opiate69 is a drug dealer" and then, when somebody says "no he's not" demanding to see a printed story stating that opiate69 is not a drug dealer.

the story that you linked to stated that the players "will be charged." Since that has not been determined to date, it is obviously incorrect to say at this time that they will be charged. Therefore, when that error was pointed out, the story was debunked.

Here, let me give you another example that may help. I can write a story saying that on June 7, 2009 it will rain in Philadelphia. If someone correctly points out that I have no idea whether or not it will rain in Philly or not on that date and my assertion has no basis in fact, they will have debunked my story, regardless of whether or not it actually rains on that day. I can't say "well, you haven't debunked my story until we see if it actually rains on that day." That is precisely what you are doing.

If you still don't get it, I'm afraid I can't help you.

[Uzybone]

203. wow what a side step by Pedro

he hardly touched Zimmer whaddufuc you talkin bout???

And look at that pitch..and closer to Manny head and it would have singed his nose hairs.

:eyes:


Great pics Blitz, watch Sox fans deny the truth even more ferociously now.

[Old and In the Way]

212. Is Zimmer the new Yankee enforcer?

:-)

[Uzybone]

201. I saw the replay

at its clear to me that Zimmer approached Pedro with a raised open hand if anything. Most likely he was just going to get in Pedros face about his cowardly beaning. People here saying Zimmer threw a punch are dishonest to the core. The old mans hand was open, you cant throw a punch with an open hand. Pedro of course may not have known Zimmers intentions, he grabbbed the 72 yrs old by the head and then threw him to the ground. Momentum my ass.

What disturbs me more is throwing the ball at Garcias head. If Pedro wanted to hit him, he could have put one in Garcias big ass. Message sent. Throwing at a guys head is reprehensible. The whole shit rests on Pedros head.

[jus_the_facts]

204. THANK YOU.......

...for seeing like it WAS and admitting it!! :yourock:

If the tables had been turned there's NO WAY I'd be defending Clemens for acting the same way....it's just can't be justified IMHO! x(

[DemocratSinceBirth]

209. This Reminds Me Of

the Raiders fans who defend Bill Romanowski's actions...

[Shakespeare]

205. sorry, still don't agree

If you watch the replay--which I've done too many times to count now (and thank you to the DUer who posted a link to the clip)--you see that Zimmer absolutely comes at Martinez full-speed, and swings with his left arm (not with a closed fist, but does that really matter?). Martinez' first move when he sees Zimmer come at him is to say "what?" and his hands go up defensively--arms bent in front of him, palms open. He then reaches out to keep Zimmer from clocking him, grabs him between the head and shoulders, and spins him to the ground. He doesn't hit him, he doesn't say a WORD to him, he walks away.

Do I LIKE that Zimmer went down? No, of course not. I even understand WHY Zimmer was upset with Martinez (although that still doesn't justify his barreling across the field to get a piece of Martinez). But to suggest that Martinez took a cheap shot at him is simply not supported by the videotape. Zimmer--stupidly--rushed him (apparently yelling at him as he approached, because he clearly drew Martinez' attention to him as he rushed forward), swung at him, and was pushed to the ground as a result.

I also think that to automatically assume that a 72-year-old is supposed to be pitied and excused for bad behavior is ridiculous.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

213. No, I was still there and can verify that Zimmer was raising his left arm

as if to throw a punch. We were behind the Yankees dugout and saw it from behind.

Now it looks as if Zim may be fined himself along with the evil Pedro!

[Shakespeare]

214. Um, I agree with you.....

Not sure you meant to respond to me?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

215. Sorry-I was addressing the indignant Yankee fans

and their denial.