Don Zimmer can kiss my arse

[WilliamPitt]

And I don't EVEN want to hear any bullshit that Pedro did wrong. I watched this game. Zimmer came in swinging against Pedro, and Pedro made sure no punches were landed against him. Zim can sit on the bench, Pedro had to pitch. Zimmer wound up on his face; he could have gotten the shit beat out of him...BECAUSE HE ATTACKED. Pedro = self-defense.

Fuck Zimmer. I hope his whole bastard body hurts today. Mess with the bull and you get the horns, asshole.

[Fight_n_back]

1. Pedro was very restrained

he avoided and did not counterpunch. Zimmer is a COACH and was out of line.

And that crock about Zimmer feels the pain about people getting beaned then why doesn't he charge Clemens?

[anti_shrub]

2. I can see how Pedro can be made to look bad

After all, he threw down a 72 year old!

But then Zimmer ran at him with the intention at least of throwing a punch, and Pedro reacted like anyone would at someone trying to punch them.

[Fight_n_back]

3. George Foreman is 50 plus

Im not letting him hit me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. To Compare A Fifty SomethingGeorge Foreman Who Still Entertains Notions

of returning to the ring and could probably beat 98%, 99% of todays heavyweight boxers with seventy two year old Don Zimmer strains credulity....

[eileen_d]

4. I didn't see the game

and I'm not a baseball fan. That said - those pictures are just WILD.

[Wonk]

6. Video clip here

http://play.rbn.com/?url=mlb/open/2003/topplays/video/archive10/demand/03alcs_gm3_nyabos_tensions_rise_300.rm

[dobak]

5. Sure, Zim got what he deserved...

but Pedro also deserved to get decked.

I've watched too many games with Pedro pitching. When he has a bad game, he tends to throw at batters (and not at their body or legs, but up high). The guy is an asshole, and I would have loved to have seen Zimmer nail him.

[Fight_n_back]

7. The assumption is that its always on purpose

When he was an Expo he hit Raggie Sanders and Sanders charged the mound. Was it on purpose? Will Petey was in the 8th inning of a perfect game so it is doubtful.

A lot of guys that are very respected (Bob Gibson, Don Drysdale) were head hunters.

[Wonk]

8. re: wild pitches, this one is pretty funny...

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/282/sports/Wild_pitch_leaves_Marlins_smil:.shtml

[dobak]

10. true, but...

Pedro seems to headhunt because he is angry at his poor pitching.

Gibson and Drysdale usually went after hitters to send a message.

Just my opinion.

[JohnKleeb]

58. Lefty Grove didnt head hunt but he did throw at people

[maveric]

56. Would Bob Gibson or Don Drysdale "deserve to get decked"?

For pitching inside and hitting a few guys? They never did. Love it or hate it hitting batters is a strategic part of the game. Clemens does the same damn thing.
The only thing that Pedro did wrong was making it overly obvious by throwing in back of the batter.
Good, intimidatimng pitchers often pitch inside and hit a few guys in the process. The two I mentioned in my subject line did it often and are in the Hall of Fame.

[Shakespeare]

57. The Fox sports guys gave hitting stats on Martinez and Clemens....

Let's just say Clemens is the higher achiever on that stat. By FAR.

No outrage over Clemens, though. :eyes:

[ReadTomPaine]

9. Great snaps, btw. <eom>

[jus_the_facts]

11. seems Sox fans have succumbed to hate and loathing of defeat so bad......

....you are in an alternate universe....kinda like the ones you classify as deluded on the right....unfuckin'believable that you defend a pussy like Pedro....he's one class act alright. :eyes:

[anti_shrub]

12. I don't think anyone should get a pass

Both teams acted pretty immaturely, but what did Yankee fans expect to happen when Zimmer charged at him?

[Fight_n_back]

13. Im not a Sox Fan

or a Yankee hater.

Zimmer was being rediculous. Should he be able to attack people because he is old?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I'm Disappointed In Alot Of People Here

NT

[DS1]

21. uh oh, are you setting up for another deleted post marathon?

:eyes:

[SiobhanClancy]

22. I see not much has changed

since last night:)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

27. Here she goes again

:eyes:

Itchin' for a tombstone.

[SiobhanClancy]

28. Lol..yes

Must have been up all night:)

[bluestateguy]

14. Zimmer/Pedro

Indeed, Zimmer was clearly preparing to strike Pedro, and Pedro was simply defendign himself. Perhaps throwing him down to the ground was a bit much, but Zimmer brought it upon himself. Chickens come home to roost.

Now, if your Red Sox do not win this series it will only prove what I have believed all along: that only Oakland could have beaten the Yankees and that the Red Sox victory in the ALDS was a waste.

[Scairp]

16. And you can kiss MINE Pitt

That ignoramous pitcher taunted Garcia and escalated the whole thing. He should have been ejected. He was a asshole and anyone who thinks the Yankees were the ones in the wrong is an asshole too, IMO.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlyByNight]

18. There's no way to "look good" throwing Zimmer...

to the turf even though Zim clearly approached Pedro. It could've looked a lot worse.

Anyway, I just want to know why Pedro threw at Garcia with 2 on and no-one out?

The Sox aren't out of it yet. Go Sox!

[Blitz]

34. Because Martinez wanted to set up the double play

and was frustrated (he'd been tattooed all inning long) so, rather than intentionally walk or pitch around Garcia, he threw at his head. If you look at Pedro's walk/hit batsman numbers and follow the situations in which he hits people, you'll see that what happened yesterday was no accident.

[maveric]

59. Drysdale wouldnt intentionally walk anyone. He'd just hit them.

"Why waste 4 pitches when I can use only one for the same result".

[VelmaD]

19. I mostly agree but...

the thing I just can't get past is that Pedro grabbed Zimmer by the head. If he had grabbed him anywhere else I would be 100 percent in Pedro's corner on this one. I just think grabbing Zimmer by the head looked bad bad bad. I think there were better ways to deflect Zimmer and even to take him down with less potential for him getting hurt, but I can't know what I would have done in the same situation though. That said, Zimmer shouldn't have charged him. It was an inflammatory thing to do and being 72 doesn't give a person a free pass to take a swing.

I think everyone deserves some blame on this one and I better hear really good apologies from both of them for the horrible example they set for the kiddies watching the game yesterday. Grown ups ought to know better than to act like that in public. It was shameful.

[woofless]

43. Grabbing Zimmer by the head was a bad move.

Pedro had to wash the SHIT off his hands.

[Punkingal]

20. Yeah.....

where was Zimmer's outrage about beanings when Clemens laid out Piazza?

[NicoleM]

23. Word.

And not just Zimmer, but all the Yankee fans that are freaking out about Pedro.

[soleft]

24. But pointing to his head and threatening to bean Posado

That's cool, gotcha.

:eyes:

[KG]

26. got no dog in this fight -

but really, wtf was zimmer thinking? or not as the case may be.

but it looks like his like zimmer was lucky all he got was thrown to the ground.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

29. Will, Did you see last night's thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=275141#275147

Lots of Name Removed Deleted Message, all on the part of those sore-winner Yankee fans.

I was at the game, BTW, and watched Zimmer try to land the first punch. At 72, he should know better. These Yankee fans think Pedro shouldn't have defended himself.

[Uzybone]

55. stop calling it a punch

when you know it clearly wasnt a punch. Why shading the facts?

[jarab]

30. I've seen Pedro run, skip, and dodge

a potential real fight many times. The sad part about this is that he was more than prepared to roll the old man like a bowling ball. Fuck the Sox - and I was pulling for 'em before this spectacle. And, fuck the Yanks for not physically defending Pops. And screw the umps for not tossing a half dozen so-called professionals.
Go! - anybody but the Red Sox.
Oh, did I forget to mention that Pedro is a wus? No excuses for whipping up on the infirm. No argument suffices. None. Especially not those based on partisanship.
...O...

[Blitz]

35. Agreed

"fuck the Yanks for not physically defending Pops. And screw the umps for not tossing a half dozen so-called professionals."

This is right. Maybe none of them saw what happened. It's kind of a close call with the players. The regular season is one thing but they have a responsibility to win the series and cannot get themselves ejected or suspended. Zimmer probably understood this. Nevertheless, at that moment, I thought that one of the bullpen guys might go after Pedro.

But the umps should have tossed Pedro for threatening the Yankee bench AFTER he threw at Garcia and Ramirez (who was very helpful to the Yankees for the rest of the game) should have been tossed for walking at Clemens with a bat and inciting that mess after a pitch over the plate. Aside from not wanting to start a riot in the stands, there was absolutely no excuse for allowing Ramirez to stay in the game:



By the way, did anyone note that Jeter was the first right hander to homer off of Martinez all season? CLUTCH.

[jerryster]

31. Zimmer

I agree. Zimmer went into the fight. If he didn't want to get taken out he should have stayed the hell out of it. His age is not the issue. No one would have faulted hin for staying on the bench. I'm sure some people will say how tough a 72 year old guy is for getting into it. But if anyone gets into it they are REQUIRED to have an expectation that whoever they try to take it to will take it to them. Should Pedro have allowed Zimmer to clock him? I think not. And I am no fan of either Boston or NY. My White Sox crashed and burned at the end of the season and I'M PISSED!!!!

[sujan]

36. hahahahahahahaha

[Terwilliger]

37. OK...people have no problem with multi-millionaires getting testosteroney

no WONDER you folks like politics

my question is, when is Tom Daschle going to punch Trent Lott in the face?

[Beetwasher]

38. Dude, that's fucked up

Sorry but you're defending atrocious behavior and that's wrong. I saw that clip a lot of times and I can't tell whether Zimmer was throwing a punch. As a matter of fact, his hand was not even in a fist. And even if he was, Pedro could have very easily moved out of the way. Instead, he grabbed Zimmer by the head and threw him to the ground HARD. If it was a Yankee would you still feel the same way? Be honest. You know you wouldn't, you'd be appalled. Pedro's behavior was despicable; he beaned Garcia in the back of the head on purpose, threatened the whole team and then violently threw a 72 year old man to the ground. It was wrong and appalling and every comment I've seen agrees, regardless of their interpretation of what Zimmer was doing.

Just saw it again right now. It's NOT clear Zimmer threw a punch at all. His hand was not even in a fist. You're wrong. Very very wrong and blinded by your team partisanship.

[Punkingal]

39. Why do you keep saying Pedro hit someone in the head?

He did not hit him in the head...he was hit in the back.

[Beetwasher]

40. Gee, that's so much better

:eyes:

Give me a break. That pitch was meant for the head and it was done on purpose. I suppose it makes a difference to you that he missed his head and only hit him in the back? That makes it ok?

[Punkingal]

41. Of course not......

I did not say it was okay. I said he did not hit him in the head, and he didn't. You said he beaned him in the back of the head.

[Beetwasher]

42. Whatever. He certainly TRIED to bean him in the head

Thankfully he missed, but it was close...It doesn't change a damn thing or excuse anything Pedro did. I find it appalling that people defend Pedro's behavior. If a Yankee did what Pedro did could you honestly say you'd defend him? I don't think so. Be honest.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. If the facts come out that the grounds guy in the bullpen was attacked by the two Yankees, I will find that behavior just as atrocious. I can be honest even if it means codemning my own team.

[Punkingal]

44. Well, I got you on record that he didn't hit him in the head....

and I am not a Boston fan, I am a Cubs fan. I like the Yankees and the Red Sox both. I think it is terrible that pitchers throw at batters, and we all know managers sometimes tell them to do it. That is something that MLB should not allow. It is absurd.

[Beetwasher]

46. I agree

It's despicable no matter who does it. It was despicable when Clemens did it too. Not sure why it matters so much to you that you got me on record saying he didn't hit him in the head. :shrug: What does it matter? It doesn't change anything I've made a point about.

For the record, I'd love to see a Yankees/Cubs series, so I'm rooting for the Cubs too!

[Blitz]

47. I can't wait for the Cubs

to come to the Bronx. That should be a great series and, with a class act like Dusty Baker in the dugout, it should be all about baseball.

Early prediction: Yanks in 6 (starting pitching depth and Mariano rivera wins it for them).

[Shakespeare]

54. You like Dusty, too?

I was so sad the A's let him go (and replaced him with a Dick Cheney lookalike, no less).

Dusty, by the way, was quoted yesterday (link in the original Martinez/Zimmer thread) saying that Martinez acted in self-defense. Looks like that class act has better vision (and fewer biases) than some of the Yankees fans around here.

[Blitz]

63. Dusty never managed the A's

He managed the Giants and was replaced by Alou, who looks nothink like Cheney. The A's let Howe get away to the Mets (poor guy). He was replaced by Ken Macha.

Of course, Howe may be in better shape next year after Miguel Tejada signs with the Mets (I can just hear the competing cheers at Mets-Yankees games ... TEJADA!! POSADA!! TEJADA!! POSADA!!).

Anyway, I feel for Dusty ... going to the World Series 2 years in a row and coming up empty both times ... pretty soon he'll start to understand what Marv Levy felt like.

[Blitz]

45. In a perfect world

Any pitcher who was judged by the umps to have intentionally thrown at an opposing player should be forced to pinch-hit for the first batter in the next half-inning. If that had been the rule, I don't think Pedro would have been pointing at his head.

[Shakespeare]

52. And based on WHAT do you say that?

He meant to hit Garcia in the head? Um, no. Wasn't even close. How you can argue intent when you have no way of knowing--and when the video replays show no such thing--is just absurd.

[soleft]

50. Yeah, but you want to know the WORSE thing Pedro did?

He LOST THE BIG GAME - HA HA HA HA HA

That's unforgivable.

[SiobhanClancy]

48. Doesn't look like Clemens is too upset about any of this

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/12/SPG1L2A1221.DTL

"When I told y'all the other day it was going to be festive, I didn't
know it was going to be this festive,'' Clemens said. "Great theater, whatever you want to call it, I think everyone got their money's worth.''

[JohnKleeb]

60. aye what irony

:)

[Nailzberg]

49. All you East coasters can kiss my arse

Cause none of this will matter after the Cubs win the World Series.

[Blitz]

53. In the year 2176?

Because it just ain't happening before then.

[SmileyBoy]

51. It was a reflex movement. Zim came in the pre-swing position.

Most anyone would do what Pedro did given the circumstances.

[BigMcLargehuge]

61. Sorry folks, a couple of poster's can't play nicely

so I have to lock this. Remember, it's just a game and none of you play for either team. Let's try and keep future sports threads civilized.

Big McLargehuge
DU Moderator

[HuckleB]

62. Pedro did wrong.

Period. And Manny was right behind him.

Sorry, at least I'm glad to know that the Sox fans I know personally think that Pedro and Manny were full of it -- Pedro in both the top and bottom of the fourth.