More Offensive Holiday: Columbus Day or St. Patrick's Day

[THUNDER HANDS]

Poll question: More Offensive Holiday: Columbus Day or St. Patrick's Day

Columbus Day - the celebration of the slaughter of indigenous people.

St. Patrick's Day - the celebration of the slaughter and banishing of indigenous people (Druids).

:shrug:

Hmm, this one is a tossup for me. I've had a bug up my ass about St. Patty's day for a long time. So maybe I'll go with that. Just because I think it's offensive to call non-Catholics "snakes."

[JohnKleeb]

1. I dont consider non catholics snakes

:hi: btw part Irish here. Arent the Druids Celts? because many Celts adopted Catholicism. Anyways come St. Pattys day gimme one of these :beer:

[Maple]

4. They didn't adopt it

It was forced on them

[JohnKleeb]

7. sorry not well versed

my bad. I know the holidays were.

[mdvet]

19. forced on them

and how was it forced, st columba converted the peoples of dalriada, galloway and the islands, in all the legends of st columba from Iona to his travels to the north, never is it mentioned he travelled with an army.

[MaineDem]

11. JK, you're not old enough

;)

[JohnKleeb]

15. well duh!

You think we have Irish History 101 :) in school, lol I wish.

[MaineDem]

36. No, no, I meant...

You're too young for this: :beer:

Just watching out for you. :)

[mdvet]

30. celts

yup the druids were a celtic religion, it was a mix of many different cultures melded to hold together the many different kingdoms of hibernia and alba, Cymru, cornwall and modern day england. when st paddy and columba etc began their missions, they both performed miracles which brought many people to their faith, but the celts as always melded the faiths together in a lot of ways, thats why most celts still believe in the little people and also follow christ.

[JohnKleeb]

31. Ok thanks

[HEyHEY]

2. Well technically

Columbus day isn't about celebrating the slaughter, whereas St patty's day is directly about that.

[Deja Q]

3. And what St Patrick's Day turned into by the ignorant sheeple:

A day to wear, drink, and piss green. Green beer, green shamrocks, eating solely Lucky Charms, and so on - it glorifies Drunken Irish stereotypes.

[THUNDER HANDS]

6. don't forget green bagels

Which, I always found hilarious...if not downright disgusting.

[Maple]

8. Yeah

English propaganda worked...still working today in fact.

[TopesJunkie]

18. In some circles, sure.

But one could say that Oktoberfest merely celebrates drunken German stereotypes, too. In truth, within the communities for which it matters, there is much more to these holidays.

[Maple]

25. Drunken Irishmen

are a major stereotype...while other nationalities also get drunk...only a couple are noted image-wise for it.

It worked so well labelling the Irish that way...it was used again on Natives. (Indians in the US)

[TopesJunkie]

39. Perhaps on the east coast.

But in the midwest, you'll find the drunken German stereotype far more prevalent.

[JVS]

44. mmmm Oktoberfest! Now that is a good time.

I'll take liter mugs of beer, bumper car, magic shows, shooting games, and carnival rides over a parade and some guiness or green beer any day.

[Stupdworld]

5. we have all sorts of silly holidays

valentine's day, halloween, president's day. heck even Christmas was arbitrarily chosen. I don't find any holiday offensive. I just choose to ignore some and respect others.

[Maple]

9. Time to add some new holidays

and dump some old ones.

[RobertSeattle]

10. Change Columbus Day to "Discover's Day" and be done with it

Celebrate all types of discoverers.

BTW - Just think what would have happened if the then North American's had been technology 100 years ahead of the Europeans.

[TopesJunkie]

17. Adventurer's Day, perhaps.

But most of what the European "discoverers" "discovered" had already been discovered by someone or another.

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. They did, in many cases, and the invaders destroyed it

Come join the fun at the Official Indian Resistance Day Thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=526814

[MountainLaurel]

12. Let's see

Both are offensive, but in different ways, IMHO.

Columbus Day is typically celebrated as such a triumph of bravery, determination, ingenuity and all those wonderful traits that only Western Europeans can have. But there's a greater awareness there of what really did happen, that as a result millions of Carib islanders were killed. (Though I think most people think it was accidental, all those European diseases that native Americans were susceptible to.

However, St. Pat's Day, in the U.S. at least, is basically one big drunken party, or a celebration of Irish culture. What bothers me about this one is that so few people know the real story about Patrick and his doings. Hell, I have friends who are second-generation Irish who think it was all about the reptiles.

Personally, I'm lighting a few candles tonight and meditating about the hell that Columbus wrought and the karmic payback that's going to come due.

[Another Bill C.]

13. Your sources

I think you'd do well to consult several sources on your judgement concerning St. Patrick.

St. Patrick was considered a Druid by the major kings in Ireland. The Druids were not dogmatic and Patrick's message seemed to be within the bounds of reason. He attempted to introduce Christianity (I don't believe it was called Catholic at that time) by melding it with the Pagan religion of the time. This led to later problems when the King Henry II of England informed the Pope that Irish Christians were following Pagan customs.

The Pope subsequently put King Henry II of England in charge of Ireland. Henry invaded Ireland in 1171 and the Irish have suffered for it ever since.

Edit: Identified English king as Henry II

[SiobhanClancy]

14. I hate all the Plastic Paddy stuff on St. Patrick's Day

Green beer,goofy leprechauns,silly hats etc.Many people of Irish descent seem to go along with it,so perhaps I am too thin-skinned about it. March is Irish History Month(by Presidential Proclamation),but we don't hear very much about the history of Ireland or the many contributions of Irish-Americans to this country. Columbus was a brutal man,and his legacy is one of shame. Many Italian-Americans have turned this day into a celebration of Italian culture,without even thinking about what Columbus was all about. So I voted "both are offensive"...and I hope that doesn't offend anyone:)

[TopesJunkie]

21. I'm not offended

by your post or the holidays. I guess I think it's good to turn a negative into a positive. And I'm fine with Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans doing just that.

[JohnKleeb]

27. *chief wiggum voice* filthy Eye-talian oh filthy Eye-talian Americans

;) j/k thats from the simpsons, I was joking. We should learn about the history of Ireland I agree, hell I wanted to learn about what is going on in Northern Ireland in history last year and did it happen NO but aparteid and the middle east are neat topics.

[Chovexani]

16. Both are offensive, IMO

I've had a bug up my ass about St. Patrick's Day for a long time too. The meaning behind the day aside, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth every year because of the nastiness that always rears its ugly head with regards to the parade.

Columbus Day REALLY gets my goat, though. My 7th grade American History teacher, radical leftist that she was (bless her heart), used to wear a t-shirt that said: "The only thing Columbus discovered was that he was lost".

She used to teach us from Howard Zinn too. I miss her. :(

[DBoon]

29. Columbus was an illegal alien

n/t

[AntiCoup2K4]

20. At least Guinness is on sale around St Paddy's day......

....Nobody's got any really cheap pizza going today, so I guess I'll go with the green :beer:

[ozymandius]

22. Both historical figures offend. This is personality cult nonsense.

Patrick was a murderer. Like his Columba.

He murdered the Druid priests before usurping the Beltane rituals and extenguishing the ceremonial fires. He played the good pagan long enough to buy some followers. He then perverted the sacred rites of Beltane for his own political ambitions.

Likewise, Columbus represents the worst of European empire builders' lust. His accomplishment, for the sake of Asian trade, opened the door for what we would now call genocide. There was nothing altruistic or patriotic about his "discovering" the new world.

[mdvet]

33. st patrick a murderer

ok inspector, prove to me how st patrick was a murderer.

[Another Bill C.]

35. Who makes this stuff up for you?

What are your sources for the "murder" charges?

[trigz]

45. Back up that Paddy-was-a-murderer-argument for a bit, will you?

Near the city of Drogheda lie Tara and the Hill of Slane both, two of the most important places for understanding Ireland's ancient history.

The importance of the Hill of Slane can be traced back into prehistory, probably as far as the Neolithic. In ancient Dindshenchas mythology, the Fir Bolg king Sláine was said to have been buried here. In the year 433 Paddy lit a fire on top of the Hill of Slane to proclaim that christianity had arrived in Ireland.

Anyway, this fire was in direct defiance of the then king of the pagans (whose name escapes me), whose traditions and beliefs decreed that no fire should be visible from the hill of Tara (which is only about 2 kilometres away and clearly visible from Slane). Sending his henchmen to punish Paddy, the saint then proceeded to indeed go to the hill of Tara, using a shamrock to explain the theory of the Holy Trinity to said king (hence introducing the shamrock as Ireland's national symbol). The king was well impressed and let Paddy off the hook and allowed him to practise his religion. He then went on to appoint one of the king's soldiers (Erc) to be Ireland's first bishop and took it from there, converting loads of people and expanding in a tempo resembling Microsoft, or something. (BTW, Slane remained an eminence of Christian significance long after St. Patrick appointed Erc as the first Bishop there - a monastery survived on the Hill of Slane even after successive raids by the Vikings.)

Anyhow, where does the killing come in? The my knowledge very little is known of the druids and their culture, mostly because it was not a writing culture. Little is known both as to their origin and what happened to them. I know nothing about any killing on the part of St. Patrick, but if you know something I've missed, tell me!

That was fun! Me and the wife are writing a travel book on Ireland after our honeymoon, and this was the first time I've been able to use any of the stuff I've learned, he-heey! Go on, ask me about Hurling, about how they process Guinness, about the Gaeltacht, anything! ;)

Anyway, I do agree Colombus was a w@nker.

[KoKo]

24. OMG! My Head SPLITS with Political Correctness! AIIIIIIIIIIAE!

We have to leave something left to celebrate? Would you have NOTHING! Yeah.....it's all corrupt crap put on us by PNAC or Whatever Pillagers who have Over-run Native Cultures and Been folks we here on DU wouldn't want to associate with!

But, If there's Nothing Left that's "Pure and Untainted" to celebrate....were are a pretty miserable bunch of people......

Should we just sit in front of the tube or read books after "work" all day. Not ever Dance, Sing, CELEBRATE, even if the reason is against our moral principles? WHERE IS THE FUN IN LIFE LEFT? I like to think of the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.....I like to remember that Columbus veered off course and happened to find this place where so many could come to create a new life! But, I weep over the Native Americans and the folks in the Islands where he first landed and their fate. But, Magic......we need something in common today to celebrate...or we are culturally and morally bankrupt (and while I agree that's true) I'm not ready to head off to an ice floe and leave myself to die for my sins and my ancestors sins! GEEZE................head spliting!

[Maple]

26. Amazing how even the hint of a tiny change

sends people into a tizzy.

Did anyone suggest eliminating all holidays? No.

It's just time to update them to today's realities.

[DBoon]

28. There is a worse holiday

Cinco de Mayo, which celebrates the invention of tequila.

[JVS]

32. What about Dingus day?

The beloved Polish holiday that takes place the day after Easter. There is much drinking and dancing, and in the old days it was traditional for men to throw water on the women, who in turn would attempt to beat them with a pussy-willow switch. These days everyone has squirt guns.

[SiobhanClancy]

34. That holiday sounds like fun!

Cool name,too:)

[JVS]

37. It is great fun

I try to make it to the local celebration each year. Couldn't last year, but this year I'm going to have a blast.

[JohnKleeb]

41. You Polish JVS?

Theres another Catholic ethnicity that I wouldnt mind having in my veins lol same with Italian although with my complexion and with the except of my "teutonic" eyes lol I could pass hehe :), I bet my great grandfathers who were Slovak and Slovene worked with a lot of Poles. You are near Pittsburgh right? has a big population right.

[JVS]

42. Nope. But I love a good holiday all the same.

[JohnKleeb]

43. ok

Not to many Poles around here to my knowledge.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Sounds interesting

I am not Polish though but I do love me a polish sausage :) yummy.

[mdvet]

40. dingus day

actually witnessed this holiday, couldnt remember the name though, was in kolozberg in poland years ago, had a great time, got my ass whipped big time though :)