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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:21 AM
Original message
Poll question: Soccer - Exciting or Boring
I report, you decide.

:)
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bif Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. If they got rid of the off-sides
rule it could be a whole lot more exciting. Never quite understood that one.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. no it wouldn't be
Without offside a striker would stay in front of the enemy goal all time; making tactical play and brilliant moves obsolete.
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bif Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It would allow break-aways though
I feel any sport can be improved.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Might be
But then again: any sport can be ruined. The lack of break-aways by more than one player is an integral part of soccer.
There were a few interesting rules in the distant past, like three corners = one penalty.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. When was that?
three corner = penalty thing in football? Never heard of it, although when I was about 9 years old, we used that rule while playing with friends in the playground. I used to get myself to the byline, knock the ball in an opponent's leg and get the corner, three times, and then take the penalty myself, and score. It lasted about one hour, and then we scrapped the whole idea as a bit silly...
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. I did som research
And it seems that it was never a real rule. That's the problem if one used to go to the stadium with his grandfather :shrug: .
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
40. What? Taking out offside would make counterattacking possible?
Rubbish. Football without offside would be pointless. Besides, plenty of teams play the counter attacking game. It relies a lot on having one central midfielder with a good passing foot, two quick wingers and good movement off the ball. Counterattacking is one of the most lethal tactics employed in football.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. I agree
The purists will object though.

(I wish US Football would also get rid of "illegal motion" type penalties (so what if they move?) and designated receiver requirements - but that's another topic!)



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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Your poll is lacking options.
Sometimes the game is tortuously boring, other times it is quite exciting. It all depends on who is playing whom.

:P
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. That's the way with all team sports.
.
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. By extension, that's my point.
:-)

I really enjoy college football, but sometimes the game just sucks because one team is clearly better than another, or both teams suck.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. I broke up with a soccer player cause he wouldn't go to a baseball game
I took the time to learn his sport and sit through the games and support him. All I asked was for him to go to one lousy baseball game in which I was paying for everything. Mind you we were having problems to begin with, but this was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. Cor' blimey...
Edited on Tue Oct-14-03 10:24 AM by Richardo
I will NEVER get soccer.

:boring:
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Same here.
I have tried to watch it. I really have. But it just bores me to tears.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. that's OK
That is exactly what American Football does to me.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
47. ...and american football and baseball does to me... (n/t)
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's fun
I find it much more enjoyable to watch than american football or baseball *gasp*. I also like watching rugby too.
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LeftistGorilla Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. The most...
loved sport in the world.... except in North America...
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manderley Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. Love soccer!!!!!!
This is the only sport I'll watch. Golf and baseball.. complete torture.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
14. Love it
the game is so fluid and requires such individual ball control and team strategy. It's as much fun to watch as it is to play. I've been an avid MLSer since the leage started up. I learned to love the game when I lived in West Sussex, England.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. yeah, but
Wouldn't it be more exciting if there were more scoring chances?

It seems every game is 1-0 and there's, at most, only four or five good scoring chances in the whole game.

That is what I think makes American sports more exciting - the repeated opportunity to score goals, points, ect.

To me, soccer is played on a field that is too large and most of the action takes place in the middle of the field.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Football is boring
for a number of reasons. They have to stop play for too many reasons. That's my beef with it.

They stop playing for:

1 - commercial TV breaks.
2- too long to set up between plays. 5 minutes of waiting around for every 2 seconds of actual play. :P

I just find it very irritating. Same with baseball and golf.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. hmmm
Edited on Tue Oct-14-03 11:25 AM by Kellanved
The abundance of action and scoring is the reason why I don't like Basketball.
There can be great soccer matches with very few chances and there can be very boring matches with 8+ goals.

I can't really say why I love soccer - I grew up with it and never got in other sports. (Hockey is tolerable; as is almost any sport in the stadium, as opposed to "in front of a TV"). I think the constant tension has to do something with it: something might happen any second- it can be like a thriller.
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. What? 4-5 good scoring chances?
Did you see the Women's World Cup Final? Germany had over 40 scoring chances and Sweden had in excess of 20.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. it's not the destination, it's the journey
that's what makes soccer so amazing for me. Each second can force a change in strategy, each successful defensive play is like a home run, each successful offensive charge, even with no score to show for it, is like a touchdown. It's drama, desperation, frustration, and exhileration all wrapped into one beautiful 90 minute wrapper.

The thing is, it's not the points that matter. Like I said the game is fluid. It's awhole experience from minute 1 to injury time. If I want high scores, there's always basketball... but even then only the last few minutes of the last quarter are worth watching, because that's where the drama is.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #21
41. How many matches have you seen?
I must say, if anyone's attention span is so short as to not appreciate the tactics and movement involved among two equally-skilled teams trying to outfox the other, then it might be just as well to stick with american football or basketball. Just last night I watched a tape of a famous game from 1997, when my team and the opposition both had to win to avoid relegation on the last day of the season. It was a nerve-wracking, tense and a dreadful 90 minutes that had my pulse racing up and down non-stop throughout (on the day, I went through more than a pack of cigarettes, in two hours!).

The result? One goal from a corner ten minutes from time and maybe eight-nine chances in all. We win, they go down. One of the most dramatic sporting events I have ever witnessed.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
15. Somewhere in between
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
18. Depends on who is playing
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
42. It does indeed
It's always a pleasure to watch Sheffield Wednesday, and always a pain to watch Sheffield United. :evilgrin:
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. who needs the Owls when you have Coventry City, home of the mediocre...
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. "who needs the Owls when you have Coventry City, home of the mediocre..."
Edited on Wed Oct-15-03 04:14 AM by trigz
Which, of course, is my team (here's hoping for a rare win over Milton Keynes Franchise FC...)

Damn, double posting. Sorry.
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T_i_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. "Milton Keynes Franchise FC"
That has top be one of the dumbest ideas ever dreamt up by a football club chairman. How to guarantee zero attendence and royally pissing off what few fans Wimbledon have in one easy step. I can't see Wimbledon/Milton Keynes existing as a club for very much longer really.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Well with the way things are going now, they'll be relegated by X-mas!
Serves as a lesson for greedy chairman bastards looking for more money. The franchise system is ridiculous and has nothing to do with football. But that lovely 1-0 win last night also means Cov are on the up, of course! MK Franchise FC are doomed - but look out for AFC Wimbledon in the Combined Counties League.
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Drifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
19. I think every sport ...
has its exciting and boring moments.

That's why there is ESPN (without Rush), and the highlights reel.

Cheers
Drifter
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
20. Hockey in slow motion
that's always been my feeling about it. But hey I've been a hockey fan since I was 10.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
22. Not the MOST exciting..but not boring
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
24. Soccer is about as intense as sport gets.
I prefer baseball, but soccer is incredibly entertaining, with constant action and tension unlike any other sport.
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peacebuzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
26. Esp. since the cup is every 4 yrs.
That way I only have to read and keep up with the sport every 4 years. Every year would be boring; but every four years is great.
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hel Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Only for Americans
the World Cup might be every 4 years, but the European Cup is every 4 years as well. And the qualifying phases for them are all around the year all the time. And there is Champions League and UEFA cup every year, both are very exciting. These are just the international matches. There are national leagues and cups in every country. Actually soccer teams and players are complaining that they are playing way too many games (almost a match every 3 days), and Champions League format had to be changed because of that.

Soccer is just the most beautiful game in the world. You just have to get used to it. And having a favorite always helps to make the matches more exciting for you, I think that this is the main reason many Americans don't get soccer. Why would you care if a certain spanish team is the biggest soccer club in the world if you don't even know where Spain is? :)
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. Quite boring
and I say that as someone who doesn't hate it. It is boring - I mean, sure, hockey can end up 0-0, but at least they hit each other and take more than one shot every ten minutes.

Flame away, as I'm obviously a freeper since I don't like soccer...
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
54. Golf is boring. Soccer (real football !) is not!
eom


John
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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
29. Why do so many Europeans play soccer?
So they don't have to watch it.

:evilgrin:
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. My God, those short pants, those muscular legs and thighs...
and beautifully proportioned men....

Soccer's the ONLY sport I ever watch. So they keep score, huh. I'd never noticed.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
31. Other:
If you have a kid playing it can be exciting.
Otherwise, no.
Now cricket. There is a game that defies description. I've had experts try to no avail.
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geniph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. Since I used to play obsessively
(sometimes five times a week), I might be a trifle biased, but I love the game. I very much dislike sports where the clock continually stops for this, that, or the other. I really prefer one where the play is continuous and there aren't player substitutions for every situation. Football and basketball are interrupted so much that my attention quickly wanders. The only spectator sports I like either never stop (like soccer) or never really start (like baseball).

On the whole, though, I don't like ANY spectator sport as much as I like playing.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
33. soccer is great
I enjoy both playing and watching, but agree watching BAD soccer teams play on tv sucks.

anyway

GOOD:

Soccer
Football
Basket

BAD:

Baseball
Golf
Volleyball
Hockey
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really-looney Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
34. Anyone who watches the German teams (male or female) know the answer
BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. hey
While German soccer is traditionally not as pleasing to the eye as, say Brasilian soccer, I find it highly entertaining.

The men's team - well, I won't argue there - but the girls played several fantastic matches during the cup. The final was played European style and was a real thriller nonetheless.
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really-looney Donating Member (330 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-14-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Watched it from beginning to end
With my 8 year old daughter. By the end, I wanted to stick forks in my eyes. I wish I had painted the walls so I could watch it dry. I don't think all soccer is that boring, just somthing about how the Germans play.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
39. Love soccer, but two fewer players per side would improve the sport
The purists will scream, and describe the need for every sacred position.

Bull. I have attended 2 World Cups, and the game is infinitely superior when players have been ejected on both sides. So much more open space and room to create.

Nowadays, the athletes can cover a greater amount of territory, and all game long, than when the rules and size of the field were cemented. Either enlarge the goal or oust some players. I greatly prefer the latter, along with liberalized substitution rules.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Why? Why? Why?
The purpose of having 11 players on each side is to maximise the level of ability of the individual player, and of the team as a whole, to break down an opposing team where each players' role is clearly defined and part and parcel of the tactics employed by that team. Playing with 10 or even nine players in each side would reduce the tactical and individual-collective aspect of football which sets it above every other sport. Besides, if you have 10 players in each team, you'd have one less to pass the ball to anyway.

Enlarging the goal is just nonsense (how many football goals do you think would have to be chucked away and replaced around the world?).

The substitution rules have already been liberalised way too much for my liking. Having the possibility of substituting three out of the 11 players starting the match is more than enough. This is a game for athletes.

The idea of football, or more to the point of *watching* football, isn't to see games that finish 7-6 or 15-14. If that's one's idea of great value for money, then for goodness' sake, stick with basketball or baseball. As for boring sports: Can someone please explain me where the excitement is in baseball, or even american football, where play is stopped every four seconds?
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. I don't think there is anything magical about 11 players
If soccer's founding fathers had decided on 13 and not 11, your argument would likely be the same.

My fundamental belief is the contemporary athlete has outgrown the boundaries established in the infancy of thse sports, and many sports have suffered as a result. The American football field is the same length and width with 330 pound linemen as it was when they were 100 pounds lighter, and the running lanes are comparatively paltry as a result. Likewise with basketball. The gimmick there to open up the game and take it away from the big men was this arbitrary 3-point line, and rewarding a no-play, chuck-it-up shot with 50% more points.

I think it's all stupid as opposed to restoring the relationship between a player's size/speed and the outlines of the playing surface. Since the soccer stadiums are cemented in size, I think the proper remedy is to remove players and open up the game. Admittedly, I am analyzing from a US standpoint. We get almost nothing televised here other than World Cups. In my lifetime I doubt that will change unless the sport is "Americanized."

Still, I have looked at World Cup results and the average scores are considerably down from decades past. The modern athlete gobbles up ground and denies the final pass or finish.

Expanding the goal was not a serious option. But trigz, you live in Europe. I don't need to tell you about the old cities that predate the automobile, and the travel realities that plague them today. Why should modern sport be handicapped by outdated rules and visions from a century or more ago?
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Well, the problem with americans and football is that
there aren't enough goals in the game to satisfy you, at least that's the argument I hear most often (to justify why it's boring). That is sad, of course, but I realise that to properly appreciate the game, it must be cultured and cultivated over generations, which hasn't been the case over at your end. Certainly that is the main obstacle to any discussion I have with americans over football.

The reason as why there are less goals in modern world cups now as opposed to earlier is simple: The competitive level is much higher, and barring the most crap teams (such as Guatemala in your part of the world, or San Marino in Europe) no games at an international level is likely to be a one-sided show. Also, as the strategic side to football has evolved over the decades, football has become more like chess and less cavalier. One goal, the precious, coveted goal can be the all-important point of the game, which defines when a game changes in character. Which is a development I salute! Watching high-scoring football games between two teams that can't defend themselves usually annoys me, even if I love watching goals. Football has become a thinking man's game.

To take you up on your "less players"-argument: Having played left-back for the past fifteen years, let me tell you that a football pitch is a lot bigger than you may think it is. Details to do with level of pressure, movement off and on the ball and of course positioning abilities (all of which good footballers are excellent at, obviously) is what closes the gaps. When a team is losing, as you know, players will push forward, leaving gaps at the back for counter-attacking opposition to exploit. The point of having eleven players on each team means
*you have players to cover every position, defensively
*your task, as a coach, is to make these players co-interact so as to make a human wall that the opponent cannot penetrate
*your opponent then must devise a tactic to break through this wall, exploiting weaknesses in your team. If your right back is slow, throw your quickest player against him and play him through on the wing to use his pace to pass the opponent.
*at any rate, the opponent must create diversions, and combinations, and situations (such as getting his players to run when having the ball so as to create two-against-one situations, for instance), by which he can break down your defence and get himself into goalscoring positions.
*When the opponent confronts you with such a dilemma, you must work out a counter move to both stop him, get the ball of him and also to create similar situations yourself as you go on the attack.

The never-ending fascination I have with football is of the game as a human chess board where the winners are the not necessarily just the athletically superior, in fact, other times they can be athletically, technically inferior. The smartness that is needed for success in football is one you won't find in any other sport, and that's what draws me and so many other hundreds of millions to it.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I like to kick 'em when they're down
Atypical of almost all American sports fans, I guess. I virtually never root for the underdog and like to see the superior side win, and decisively. I appreciate rules and modifications that enhance the better team.

Regarding your last point, plus the coveted first goal, I felt cheated while attending the '90 Cup in Italy. The Argentina squad was just a shell of the team that had prevailed in '86, yet they played a series of ugly games and even reached the final vs. Germany. In that final, it was obvious from the beginning that Argentina had no intention of doing anyhthing other than stealing a World Cup via penalty kicks. Luckily the ref called a very late penalty on Argentina and Germany won, 1-0.

Argentina had upset Brazil in the first knockout round, despite being completely outplayed. I was royally ticked, having traveled thousands of miles only to have the great Brazilians depart early. The semi involving Germany vs. England was a great match but I was sure the Argentines would deliver a crappy final. They did.

During that Cup I became convinced the sport needed two fewer players. There was an early round game I attended involving Holland in which each team had one player ejected. It was such a terrific game thereafter. Everyone in the stands agreed with me.

With two fewer players the superior team would prevail much more often and there would be far less sitting on a 1-0 lead. I appreciate the counterattacking style of the Germans and how good they are in the air, but vs. the US last year they basically retreated after the 1-0 lead. Thank goodness they never stole a cheap early goal vs. Brazil.

If every team played like the Africans, attacking even with a lead and not much defensive strategy other than a kamikaze offsides trap, then yeah you can keep the 11 players or even add a few.

And as far as substitution, I'm sure you will be appalled at my suggestion: complete freedom, including removing players and reinserting them later on. That would really open up the possibilities of specialized substitution, especially with corner kick or free kick setups. Not that it will ever happen, of course.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #52
61. It wouldn't have made the slightest difference
The Argentina team you are referring to is certainly the most negative team to have reached a World cup final. However, they knew well in advance that they didn't have a particularly great team, except the magnificent Diego Maradona. They knew they had a good team, defensively, and so they played to their strengths. Besides, in that final against the Germans they had five(!) of their regular starters suspended for yellow and red cards, so of course they took their chance on the game going to penalties. They had no choice.

The reason they got to the finale can be summed up in two factors: Maradona, and the lack of ability on the part of their opponents. Against Brazil in that match I never felt that Brazil were going to win it. Why? Because they weren't good enough. When Argentina won that particular game, I felt not an inkling of pity for the Brazilians. Why? Because they weren't good enough. They knew that the only offensive weapons Argentina had were Maradona and Caniggia, and they knew they'd try to counter attack them at some stage in the game, starting from deep within their own half and playing off Maradona through the middle, using Caniggia's speed to break down their own rather slow central defensive line. They knew that, and they weren't good enough to stop it. In addition, they weren't good enough to score more goals than the Argies. Conclusion: They lost deservedly, and they weren't good enough.

The '90 WC is a bit particular, and as you're well aware it brought along a significant change after the tournament: The abolishment of the backpass rule and the introduction of the 7-second-rule for the goalie. That in itself was enough to rid football of the negative tendencies of Italia'90, and as you saw four years later, the USA WC was another thing altogether.

Had Argentina played with nine players (they frequently did play with less players on the field in that World Cup - they had five or six red cards throughout the tournament) it wouldn't have made an ounce of difference. With fewer players the Argentinians would've opted to take away two offensive players from their team and put out an even more negative game. It would not have changed anything. The only difference between a team playing a 4-5-1 formation and one playing a 4-3-1 is that they aren't able to go into pressure with their midfield to the same degree. But then again, if the opposition had only nine players also, the equilibrium would not have changed.

Defending well is not easy. In fact, defending the goal of an inferior team is certainly (to my mind) a lot more difficult than playing in attack for a smashingly great team. Although I too was annoyed that Argentina managed to squeeze themselves into the final (although not on account of their match against a Brazilian team which was the most hyped-up team of their entire generation), one cannot call them a crap team just for playing negative football. And with the rules of today, they wouldn't have stood a chance.

Anyhow. Yes, absolutely - Germany v England was a classic. But where was the difference? The English, too, took the consequence of having a couple of central players out suspended and waited in defence for the Germans to come at them, taking their chances on counterattacks instead. It was a great game simply because neither the English nor the German defence was as good as the Argentinian, and both the teams' attack was a lot better than the Argentinian. But that doesn't change the fact that both team's philosophy was a lot like the Argentinians: Safety first. Why safety first? Well of bloody course: They were playing a semi final in a World Cup, for goodness' sake.

I don't understand your argument. Being creative is a lot more difficult in itself than is being destructive, although I give credit to the Argentinian defence. What pissed me off about their team was the time-wasting. That is one aspect that is now a whole lot more difficult, what with no backpass, keeper can only keep the ball for 7 seconds, deliberately kicking the ball away being a yellow card offence. Like I say, the Argies of 1990 would have been chanceless today.

The Germans, against the US in last years' WC, got the goal and then waited out the game, because they understood how to stop the Americans and didn't bother putting more effort into it than they had to. And bar a couple of efforts, you never came close. Against Brazil in the final, if you will remember, the Germans had two massive chances in the first half (as well as Neuville's 30 yard free kick that hit the post after the break) before Brazil had even got off their arses. Just before Brazil got their first I actually felt that Germany had them under control.

Arguing that just because Brazil have Ronaldo and Rivaldo means they automatically deserve to win the Final against Germany is just silly. Certainly, they are great players, but if they can't perform against Germany's defenders and midfielders, themselves among the finest in Europe, they can't make any claim to winning the big prize. Per definition.

I have to correct you on something: The fact is that the vast majority of football teams continue attacking even when they have the lead. The reason for this is obvious: It is highly risky to lie back and try to secure a 1-0-lead, since you give away all possession and time on the ball to your opponents, and I could refer you to thousands of examples where, when a team has had the elad and pulled back into their own box, they've been punished for it by actually losing the game. Why? Because, if you're holding back in defence for one hour, and the opposition scores, you'd need to get back in attack to get another goal. You will have had to have played football for some years until you realise how difficult it is to suddenly change the mentality, tactic and rhythm of your game like that. Trust me, it's not easy. Doing it more often than not results in conceding another goal and losing the game. The average league football game in Europe has between 3-5 goals in it, so in saying that it's only the African teams playing cavalier football, attacking "even when they have the lead", you are completely misinformed. And besides, the only reason as to why ie. Cameroon throw people in attack at all stages of a game (more so than many other national teams competing in the world cup) is, naturally, that they have a crap defence, but a reasonable attack, and that they know it themselves.

The substitution argument is plain silly. We actually have that rule as an experiment in the lower divisions in Norway (from division 3 to division 8, where I play). Do you know what the consequence is? Some teams have two complete line-ups, which they switch halfway in the first half and halfway in the second. For regular squads such as mine (we have 14 players), that's just ridiculous, since when, after 60 minutes of battling and struggling, we have to face a completely new team with fresh legs. So what has happened four or five times this season is: We lead 1-0, 2-0 or 3-1, something like that, until half an hour remain. Then, a completely fresh team come onto the pitch against our 11 tired pairs of legs, and score 3-4 goals in the remaining half hour. Is that fair? Even our football federation has come to realise that this is completely ridiculous: they're now about to abolish it and going over to a maximum of three substitutions, which is the rule in the higher leagues and which, of course, makes a lot more sense.

Like I've said; I think that, to understand the value of defensive stability on the extreme level that is the World Cup (which you keep referring to) you need to have football culture. Americans, although you are keen about football these days, do not have that yet. For my own part I'd be pissed off if my team were leading 2-0 or even 2-1 in an extremely important match, and still sent five or six players chasing upfield? Why? Because it's naive, stupid and risky to do so, and because the opposition most likely will establish pressure, and get goalscoring opportunities in any case. If you want cavalier football, you'd probably name Real Madrid as the prime example. You're right! - Real is without doubt the greatest team on the planet, but not even they are so stupid as to have six players in the attack when they are leading!

The art of football requires excellence in defending, attacking, adhering to tactics, keeping pressure and counterattacking. And like I'm saying, it's all about understanding the finer aspects of the game. It is my opinion that people who define football solely as entertainment where one should see 8, 9 or ten goals a match, have no clue what they're on about and should probably find another hobby, because football is a lot more refined than that. If that's the case, stick to basketball, if seeing games finishing in two or three digits is the only thing that matters.
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geniph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. Have you ever played center halfback?
if you had, you would NOT be advocating for fewer players.

...pant, pant...

Geni
who HATES playing halfback...too much running!
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Central defender, you mean?
Try playing left back and being not particularly quick, with the opposition throwing their quickest winger and one of the strikers over on your side. I've been there...(last resort: Foul the bastards!)
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-15-03 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
48. "Footy": A thrilling, pure world game...
Same is Scotland as in Cameroon as in Japan as in Canada as in Latvia as in USA, etc., etc.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
53. Most Americans think soccer is boring but....
why does golf get more coverage on TV? Now that is boring. I like soccer better than most American sports anyway.

John
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
55. I LOVE FOOTBALL!!!!
And this is my team!






HAIL HAIL THE CELTS ARE HERE!!!

Here is their official site!

http://www.celticfc.net
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
56. 0-0 ties and 2-1 scorefests are truly f*****g boring.
passing is ok for a while but points on the board are exciting!

BORING!!
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Your attention span isn't adapted to it, I suppose...
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. Definately not.
I guess that I like to see results.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. No, you like to see high numbers and goals every three seconds.
There's a difference.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #56
66. Why is golf popular game?
That is a boring game.

John
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Zech Marquis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
63. Champions League, Euro Cup, and World Cup
I haven't as much drama than during those 3 tournaments--take the current Bosox/NYY series and pump up the drama by 1000 when England and say Germany, or Man U and Real Madrid go at it.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-03 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
64. Tedious
Criminally over-paid halfwits running... don't get me started
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