Here is why the Cubs lost ALL because of that fan

[Resistance]

Ok I know there are too many threads talking about the Cubs game last night, but in this thread, I want to show how, pitch by pitch, or at least, batter by batter, the Cubs lost the game all because of the fan who interfered.

See, I am hearing all day today about how the Cubs players also blew it. How awful Prior's pitching was in the 8th. How Dusty should have taken him out sooner. How Dusty should have done this, should have done that. And of course, how awful the Gonzalez error was. The point I will make here is that ok I agree with all those points and all the blame going to the Cubs players and coaching. BUT, even though I agree, I argue that the game STILL would have been won by the Cubs had that fan not interfered. That fan cost the Cubs the game, and possibly the series.

Proving my point is pretty easy to do actually: all you have to do is go back and retrace the rest of the inning/game play by play, pitch by pitch, but in order for my theory to be proven correctly, you have to show what would have happened IF the fan doesn't interfere and Alou catches the ball that was heading straight towards Alou's mitt. Also, you have to account for all the Cubs errors and mistakes. I argue that even if the Cubs go on and play the rest of the inning through as badly as they did, with the Gonzalez error, and with Marlins batters getting their hits on Prior, you can STILL say that the Cubs WOULD HAVE WON if it hadn't been for that fan.

Now let's get to the meat and potatoes: Let me prove my case. Let's go back to the game, it's 1 out with a runner on 2nd, and Prior pitches a 3-1 pitch (might have been 3-2, I don't remember but it doesn't matter either). The ball is hit to that left wall, and if the fan doesn't interfere, Alou catches the ball (we can assume with reasonable certainty), the batter is retired (instead of walking the next pitch to 1st), and it's 2 outs.

Now let's follow the rest of the inning through to completion, pretending that Alou makes the catch, and everything else happens just as it did. Remember, in order for me to prove my point, I have to still account for the Gonzalez error, and the rest of the Marlins getting on base. Again, I argue that regardless of Cubs mistakes and errors, That Fan STILL cost the Cubs the game. So, the next batter was Pudge, who, remember, got a base-hit into left field. At this point, you would have had the runner from 2nd go to 3rd, and Pudge gets to 1st. The next play was the Gonzalez error. On this play, the guy on 3rd would come home (just as he did in the real game), Pudge would go to 2nd, and the batter makes it to 1st. The score now would be 1-3, with nobody on third, and runners at 1st and 2nd. The next batter got a hit again to left field, which in the real game scored two runners (because in the real game, bases were loaded). However, IF Alou makes that catch, only 1 runner would have been in scoring position. The next batter hit a fly-ball to right field, was caught, and would have ended the inning with a 3rd out instead of a 2nd out.

And the score to end the inning would have been Marlins 2, Cubs 3.

---

THAT FAN cost the Cubs the game last night. Instead of the fly-ball in right field being Out number 3, it was Out number 2, allowing another runner to score, and the inning continued as it did.

Again, my point here is pretty simple: You can talk about how horrendous the Cubs played for the rest of that inning, and it's a valid enough point, EXCEPT that it DOES NOT MATTER. Even if you account for how badly the Cubs players were in the 8th inning last night, you can STILL PROVE that THAT FAN is entirely to blame, by retracing the rest of the inning exactly as it had happened, except you have to retrace as if Alou had caught the ball.

So, if my memory on last night's game is errant, or if someone can show me how in some way I have overlooked something, let me know. But I've been going over that inning in my mind all day today, and the conclusion is crystal clear.

THAT FAN IS TO BLAME.

[VermontDem2004]

1. Gonzales cost them the game

It wasn't like the fan took a ball over Lofton's head in center field which lead to a home run(impossible in Wrigley), it was a Foul ball, no one gets on base or whatever. A double play would of ended the inning up 3-1 but Gonzales (a multi-millionare professional) dropped the ball.

[Resistance]

6. That is a fair argument

But it doesn't in any way negate my point, that the fan interference can also be entirely blamed.

[VermontDem2004]

7. The fan is not payed millions to make plays

Here is my meat and potatoes.

The Cubs have one out.

A grounder is hit too Gonzales, he throws it to second, whoever is on second throws to first inning over Cubs up 3-1.

[Resistance]

13. I am totally with you

Gonzalez can be blamed entirely. Your point is totally correct. But, does it negate my point? No, it doesn't.

[VermontDem2004]

15. Yes it does

You blame the fan, the fan didn't do anything. It was a foul ball and not a home run ball. You go out there and get the strike, you go out there and get the double play, you go out there and do what paid professionals are supposed to do. The fan is not the one to blame, also Sammy could've thrown the ball to the cut-off man to make the throw at second and end the inning down 4-3, it is better then being down 8-3 if you ask me.

[Nailzberg]

2. We had a 3-1 series lead, no one to blame but ourselves if we fail

Look, you can say whatever you want about this fan costing thew game, but the simple fact is, over the course of seven games, some things go your way and some things don't. You have to ignore those factors that go bad and overcome them. Eight runs scored because the Cubs got rattled. We have no one to blame but the players. No Goats, no black cats, and no dumb fans.

[VermontDem2004]

3. dumb fans?

I seen at least 4 other fans reaching the ball, the only way to know you would of done something differently is if you were sitting where the fan was. I don't know if I would've done any differently after all it looked more like a reaction rather then a well thought out move. Gonzales is payed big $$ to make plays and he failed to that last night.

[Nailzberg]

10. All the fans reaching for the ball were dumb, IMO

Still, the Cubs loss is not his fault, or any other fans fault. I think that was the point of my post. I have been agreeing with the sentiment that the players are to blame for not making the plays that mattered. The blame is all on the field.
That being said, when you sit in the first row, you should know a play is possible right there, expecially when you coach baseball and are a lifelong Cubs fan.
Sorry if dumb was too harsh a word.
I have been doing nothing but defending the guy from all the "blew the game" remarks all day long. I still think it was a bonehead move. The dumb players treated it like it was the end of the season, and fell apart. That isn't his fault. The team blew the game, and I've been saying that all day.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=288894>

[VermontDem2004]

20. It is because it is a fucking game

You would probaly reached for the ball but no one will ever know because you weren't sitting there at that point in time. I don't think dumb is the right word, I think the fans were reacting. I never seen a fan NOT reach for a ball when it was near them, it is pure reaction.

[Nailzberg]

27. I practically live in Wrigley

Alou has taken a few fouls out of the air over that wall. I would not have reached for it had it been me, and I know that from experiance. I've snagged my share of baseballs and have past on balls that could have been played. It was a bonehead move, and shows a lack of attention to the situations in the game.
I don't want to treat this like an arguement, because we've really been on the same page all day. The professional players blew the game because they did not handle the game professionally.
Alou making that catch would have been a good out to get, but it was just a foul ball. They had a chance the next pitch to get the batter out, and didn't get it done. The team acted like it was owed to them, and let it destroy their concentration. That is why they lost, because they couldn't cope with not getting a free out.
What the Cubs needed to do was regroup immediatly and get over it. The Cubs blew the game, and I've been saying that all along.
Let's not get at each other's throats over my using the word dumb. That's just how I grew up watching the Cubs with my granddad. Everytime someone threw a pitch and missed the zone, they were a "dummy" to him. Dumb is my favorite modifier.

[Resistance]

5. I guess you didn't read my post

I agree that some things go your way and some things dont. I agree that factors should be overcome. I agree that eight runs shouldn't have been scored, and that it was all on the players.

But my point is, even if the players play just as badly, the Cubs do go on to win the game if you take out the fan interference factor. And I do see your point, and I'm not arguing against it really. What I am saying is that yes you really can blame the loss of the game on that one play where the fan interfered. Whether you want to focus on other things or not, it doesn't matter. That Fan cost the Cubs the game, simple as that.

[VermontDem2004]

8. Gonzales cost the Cubs the game, simple as that

My meat and potatoes.

One Out Score 3-1

A grounder is hit to Gonzales, he makes the play at second and whoever is at second makes the play at first, inning over Cubs up 3-1.

[KFC]

4. Nope - Alou would have dropped it anyway

When his hand hits the top of the wall, the ball would have popped out.

A bunch of crying about nothing.

[Resistance]

9. Alright, let's say Alou dropped it

Then you could blame the entire loss on Alou's dropping of the ball, couldn't you. So if you are a thinking person, now you see how reasonable it is to argue that the fan is to blame for the loss.

[VermontDem2004]

11. No Gonzales

He dropped at opportunity at a double play to end the inning up 3-1.

[Resistance]

18. Yup, again, I am in agreement with you

BUT (read my original post, please) even if Gonzalez makes that error, the Cubs DO go on to win, if the fan doesn't interfere with the ball. Your point helps to prove my point. I have proven in my post, that if Alou makes the catch, that Gonzalez can still go on to make that dreadful error, and the Cubs would still have come away from the inning with a 3-2 lead.

[VermontDem2004]

22. You are assuming the Cubs don't give up any runs in the 8th or 9th inning

The fan deserves no blame because he isn't a paid professional, the only ones responsible are the Cubs.

[KFC]

17. Nope, the ball was in the stands

A 1-in-20 play at best. Alou simply couldn't get to it cleanly enough. Not his fault.

[Resistance]

21. All the replays show

that the ball was falling right into Alou's mitt. Obviously we'll never know, but I would guess that the catch would have been made.

[Guaranteed]

12. Well, just don't string him up yet.

Let's pin his life on how well Kerry Wood does tonight. That's gotta be a LOT of pressure for Wood. "Look, Wood- if you don't win tonight, we're gonna have to kill this guy over here, k?"
"Alright, Vito."

[returnable]

14. Interesting premise, but did the fan...

...cause the Cubs to choke away a 4-run lead in Game One?

Did the fan make the Cub bats disappear in Game Five?

The Cubs lost last night because they failed to play solid baseball. Just like they did in two other games in this series.

You can throw out a hypothetical scenario, like the one you did, and spin it into a Cubs win. But the fact is, it's just hypothetical.

The reality could've been quite different.

Say Alou DOES catch that ball for out #2.

That brings up Pudge Rodriguez under totally different circumstances. Prior doesn't pitch to him the same way.

Maybe he gets Rodriguez out.

Maybe he serves up a gopher ball and the Marlins tie it up anyway.

Who knows?

What we DO know is the Cubs melted down in the 8th inning.

Even then, they had 6 outs of their own to get those runs back. And they went down without a fight.

Can't blame that on the fan.

[bushisanidiot]

16. Too Many If's. There's no guarantee Alou would have caught the ball.

the fan didn't reach out onto the field area. It was Alou reaching into the fan area.. into people who would have had to scramble to get out of the way. Everyone had their eyes on the ball.. how do you expect all those fans (there was more than one reaching for the ball) to know exactly where Alou was and that he could jump and pull himself up that high into the stands???

[pnb]

19. Your post proves nothing...

...because it is based on the premise that everything after that play would have remained the same and that premise is false. No one has any way of knowing what would have happened afterwards.

Fact is, all the Cubs had to do was get two more outs that inning even after the play and couldn't do it...they didn't deserve to win.

And you also don't know how things play out in the 9th if the Marlins are still losing then either. Different pitchers, different hitters, different approaches...anything could have happened.

Once again, Cubs blew it and didn't deserve to win. Shit happens.

[Resistance]

23. yeah I can agree with that

We'll never know what would have been pitched to Pudge had it been 2 outs instead of 1, and we'll never know what would have been swung at. Same with the rest of the game: pitching, hitting, approaches would have all been different.

Still, I thought it interesting to speculate with this "what-if" scenario.

[VermontDem2004]

24. So why do you say

the blame is ALL on the Cubs fan? It is just a "what-if" scenario, I don't even think Gonzales is to blame, he is to blame for the disaster in the 8th inning but not the game. The Cubs had two innings to strike fire and even with your scenario the Cubs ending the inning up 3-2, the Marlins still would've had two innings to score two runs.

[Resistance]

29. Look I am just theorizing

I realize it's all up for debate, and that truly we will never really know what would have/should have/could have happened. All we can do now is hope for the best tonight.

[SaveElmer]

26. Taking your argument to its logical conclusion

Would mean that players and fans have no right to complain about bad calls, fan interferance, or any other event that happens outside the players control because you don't know what would happen afterwards. That's crap if you ask me. Had this been a bad call by an umpire all these fans who are poo-pooing the fact that that fan probably caused the Cubs to lose the game, would be howling about how the umpire cost them the game.

[pnb]

31. And if they were howling about that...

...given the same circumstances that exist here, they'd be just as wrong. It doesn't matter at all. People also seem to forget that dealing with fans is a part of the game. I'm not saying its wrong to complain...hell, that's half the fun of being a sports fan but that doesn't mean your complaints are valid.

The Cubs allowed a bunch of base runners before that play and a bunch after. YOU nor I nor anyone else know how things would have played out if that changed.

[SaveElmer]

25. I'll back you up man

Had this been an umpire who made a clearly bad call, all these fans who are dissing your analysis would be up in arms, and rightly so, that the game was stolen by forces not under the players control. That fact is, had the fan not interfered Alou would have caught the ball. Now, you don't know what would have happened afterwards, but I think it is a pretty good assumption that the Cubs would probably have gotten out of the inning with their lead intact. No one knows if the Cubs would have blown it the next inning, but the point is it would have been under the players control, and if they blew it, it would be on them. Cubs fans are right to be pissed at that guy (though I would lighten up on the calls to violence.)

[chiburb]

32. Say what?

"That fact is, had the fan not interfered Alou would have caught the ball."

Read PNB's post. He estimates Alou's chances at 1 in 20 of catching the ball, fan or no fan. Every Cub fan who has been to Wrigley or watched them on tv for years says they have NEVER seen an outfielder make that play in that location. Even the morning sports-talk jock (Cub fan going back to the '50s) says he's never seen it.
My point is that your statement of fact is no such thing, just an opinion that can be argued with.
Of course the same fans argue that Gonzalez should NOT have booted the ball, whether resulting in 1 out or 2. As stated above, that's baseball!

[SaveElmer]

47. Doesn't matter what happened before

The ball was clearly going into his glove. You can say all you want about never knowing what would happen, and I suppose that is statistically true. I guess we aren't 100% sure our sun won't go Nova tomorrow either. By this logic we should never complain or dispute anything that happens, because you never really know what would have happened anyway. The fan interfered, and there is compelling evidence that it may have cost the Cubs the game.

[Rooktoven]

28. If the Cubs and their fans pin it on that guy

and not THE TEAM, then they are losers and chokers who don't deserve to go to the series. Jesus, some people are giving up before game 7 is played. Lets remember-- 3-1 series lead. Double play ball bobbled. Crappy pitching follows.

Championship teams shake off bad breaks. I don't think the Yankees would have folded under similar circumstances. (And I typically don't like the Yankees.)

I'll repeat. If the Chicago fans continue to heap it on this guy, THEY are losers who don't deserve a winning team.

[stopbush]

30. Why aren't you blaming the ump?

He called the ball foul. He could have ruled "fan interference" and awarded an out, but he didn't. That's point one.

Point two - there's no way you can predict how things would have gone IF the ball had been caught. Pitch sequences etc could have been different, etc, etc. The only thing you can be sure of is that the ensuing sequence of plays would have started or ended differently.

A GREAT team wins because it's a winner. They NEVER win/lose on ONE disputed play. Just look at Bush and 2000 - nothin' great there!! At the end of the day, if the Cubs are a great team, they will put yesterday behind them and win tonight and you'll all be asking to sit next to "that fan" because he created another chapter in the history of the Cubs. If you lose, then you can pin "the curse" on him - but at least he's now got a very personal connection to Cubs history!

My take on the Cubs fans? Well, last night, you reminded me quite a bit of BoSox fans back in '86 against the Mets, WS Game 6. You were counting your chickens before they hatched. You've all bought into the "destiny" thing and the national exposure your team has finally received. You were up three runs and were ready to celebrate. It didn't happen. It could still happen tonight. But if you're all sending out vibes about your "curse" the way the BoSox did after losing that Game 6, well, then the Yankees are just going have to play the Marlins.

[Resistance]

33. Because

I believe it is reasonable enough to show that the fan denying a precious out cost the Cubs the game. Your points are all good, and I agree with it. My point is to say that even if the Cubs play as miserably as they did, they still would have got by with a lead at the end of the inning.

Let me make a comparison to show the point I am making: you mention Bush and 2000. How did they win? Can't you reasonably make an argument, that if those error-filled felon purge-lists in Florida had NOT been in place, that Gore would have gone on to win the election? Plenty of us here would argue that you can blame the entire thing on the felon purge-lists created and implemented by the Bush-team. What you and others are doing is saying, No, the purge lists aren't to blame, instead Gore's campaign was awful and he should have done this or that, and not have had to worry about those tens of thousands of Florida registered voters who were purged due to the Bush-team's felon lists. Now, while that is entirely a valid point, it still doesn't take away from the fact that the Purge-lists did cost Gore the Presidency of the United States.

I am making a similar point (I realize it's not exact) with the Cubs fan interfering. While it's entirely valid to say that the Cubs players should have done this or that, or Dusty should have made one decision or another, it doesn't take away from the fact that the interference by the Cubs fan was extremely costly. Just like I would argue that if it weren't for the felony lists in Florida, Gore would have won the election, I also argue that if the fan didn't interfere, the Cubs go on to win the game.

[stopbush]

34. Hey, I'm pulling for the Cubs!

But you may as well blame me as blame that fan. Why? Well, I watched the entire game, but just as that infamous inning rolled along, I had to leave and pick up my kids from their after-school activities. By the time I got back home, it was 4-3. I asked my wife "wha happened?," but she wasn't watching. I had to see the "catch" and everything else on replay.

So maybe the fact that I had stopped watching the game is the REAL event that led to the fan interference, that led to the error, that led to...

[RetroLounge]

44. Okay, it's your fault!

now leave town without a forwarding address before the lynch mob comes looking for you...

:)

[VermontDem2004]

40. Extremely costly?

A foul ball? :eyes:

What was costly was Gonzales making an error, could've ended the inning up 3-1. The fan did nothing wrong, I watched the game and when that moment occured I didn't think nothing of it but when I logged on DU I was surprised many were calling him an 'idiot' 'bastard' 'doofus' and ther names. The paid professionals lost the game not the fan.

[Resistance]

42. bah

you've made your point, I've made mine.

How about a :beer: :beer: :beer: and we cheer on the Cubbies tonight.

:toast:

[Boot]

35. The fan's interference changed the momentum of the game

I agree that the fan should not have tried to catch that foul ball. It ended up as a free out that the Marlins didn't deserve. (What was he listening to on his headphones, as he continued to sit in his seat after the botched play? If it was WGN Radio, he would have heard Steve Stone upset as I've seldom heard him upset over that play.)

Despite Marlins manager Jack McKeon's downplaying of the fan's interference, the Marlins players have been quoted as recognizing the extra out that the fan gave to them by denying Alou the chance to catch the second out of the inning. It woke up their bats at the same time that it stunned the Cubs. Things spiraled out of control in just about 5 minutes.

Just a few thoughts... if Alou makes the catch, there are 2 outs and a man on second. A calm, unagitated Mark Prior quite probably pitches better and gets out the 8th inning with the lead intact, or tied, at worst. A calm, unagitated Alex Gonzalez doesn't need to try to turn a double play.

Yes, there were just 5 outs to go. Too bad it turned out to be 5 outs in the 8th inning.

Excerpt from ESPN
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2003/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1638362

"...This was a moment no Cubs fan will ever forget. They will always see this foul ball twisting toward the brick wall that juts out toward the left-field foul line. They will always see Moises Alou angling over, setting himself, leaping, reaching. And they will always see the fan in the blue Cubs hat and the headphones over his ears, cupping his hands, deflecting this baseball away from Alou, keeping this at-bat alive.

Alou spun away in anger, spitting out words we can't repeat. Fans around this anti-Jeffrey Maier began berating him, abusing him, showering him with guilt and beer -- but not quite in that order.

Three hundred feet away, in the visitors' dugout, Marlins players looked at each other, wondering if they'd just seen what they'd seen, hoping it meant what they thought it meant.

"Mike Redmond turned to me," Lee said, "and said, 'OK, let's make that kid famous.' "

[Rich Hunt]

39. I agree

...all of the equilibrium was gone after that. I've seen similar things in lots of other games.

[Pithlet]

49. It's still not the fan's fault

I don't know, I just can't get all upset about a bunch of highly paid professionals losing their momentum over something a fan did. High school team? Yes. Professional baseball? I just don't think that's an excuse. If they lost their momentum, and gave up, it is their own fault if they couldn't buck up and play the game the way they should have. I realize that momentum can be important, and even professional teams are prone to losing it, and it can affect the game. I just don't think it's fair to blame *that* on the fan.

A good team is more than just playing the game well. It's the ability to bounce back after a bad break, and continue to play to win. If they wren't ablee to at that moment, it's all on them.

[Boot]

51. The "fan" still gave the Marlins an extra out that doomed the Cubs...

I said the momentum of Game 6 changed and shifted to the Marlins. It was not so much that the Cubs lost focus as much as the foul ball not caught was the spark that started the conflagration; the Marlins had proven throughout the playoffs that they can capitalize on every opportunity given to them, including a free out, and that is exactly what happened. The Marlins' players have been quoted in the press as acknowledging that the extra out helped them, and one Marlins player even said, "I hoped that fan was a Marlin's fan." It was like tossing free fish (pardon the analogy) to sharks who started an unstoppable feeding frenzy.

It is certainly wrong for other Cubs fans to threaten and ruin this young man's life by blaming him for the entire Game 6 nightmare, but it's also wrong to completely deny that the extra out he gave to the Marlins did not help spark the Marlins' rally. The Marlins themselves have acknowledged the "fan's" role in giving them an extra out. Cubs fans have a legitimate right to be angry about the catastrophic result of this extra out given to the Marlins. Game 6 turned out to be the death of the Cubs' 2003 pennant chase, and Game 7 the funeral.

I've watched the Cubs lose in 1969, 1984, 1989, 1998, and now 2003.

[Pithlet]

53. I still disagree

I disagree that that out was "given" to the Marlins, because the ball was out of play once it crossed the fence line, so I believe the call was correct. Also, there is no guarantee that the ball would have been caught otherwise.

I still hold fast on the momentum issue. How is it the fans fault or doing that either team was affected? If the Marlins chose to capitalize on that "break", good for them. They should have. If the Cubs couldn't get it together after that happened, then it is their fault. Blown calls and tough breaks happen in sports. Part of the game is learning to deal with that, especially at the professional level.

Look, if the fan had hung himself out over the field, or had jumped out of the stands and caught the ball, I would agree that he interfered in the game, and I could understand the anger directed at him. But, I would still think it's up to the paid players to buck up and do what they do to win the game.

[Pithlet]

54. double post

[fishnfla]

36. I just heard from a friend of this fan

Called into WTKS, an Orlando radio station. Claims to know the guy, "Stevie" and his family. He stated that Steve and his family have been receiving death threats and threats of his house being burned down, his parents have been too. In the stadium, he was pelted with beer and debris, people verbally threatening him, people spitting on him.

He and his family are literally in fear of their lives. Great job Cub fans. Good job Resistance,since you cant seem to put it down, keep it up.

Jesus God, go Marlins. Cubs fans are an embarrassment to human life.

[Resistance]

37. whatever

I don't advocate violence on the fan. Crap job, fishnfla, trying to lump me in with the pyschopaths that do.

[fishnfla]

38. You can blame one fan

and I cant? You're right though, the guy is entirely to blame. I FORGIVE the Cubs fans for their rage and death threats. Dig it?

[Resistance]

41. I forgive everyone too

the players, coaches, goats, interfering fans. After all, it really is just a game.

But that still doesn't change the fact of That Fan altering the course of Cubs history by blocking Alou from making the catch. Why is that such a hard reality to face? Why must my making a point get lumped in with the fans threatening to burn the guys house down? For the record, I think that sucks, and I think it's awful that That Fan has to go through with it.

All I am saying (really, all I am saying - nothing attached, nothing extra implied) is that I believe it is entirely reasonable to blame That Fan for the Cubs loss last night. It's not reasonable to send death threats or spit on him. Ok maybe a beer thrown on his shirt I would say is understandable! :evilgrin: But violence? Come on. I agree that threats of violence are inexcusable.

[fishnfla]

43. I hear ya, but you cant qualify finger-pointing like that

You are doing the same thing as the ragers. They blame him too after all. If everyone is standing around pointing fingers at the poor guy, nobody is gonna be able to lend him a helping hand when the "phsycopaths" rush in.

The guy on the radio said that this guy Steve is "just a super nice fella...volunteers in youth leagues"

[Blue-Jay]

45. They didn't lose SHIT because of that guy.

If you're going to win, you need to score more points. Period. Blaming a dumb fan or an umpire/referee or the weather or anything else is what fans do when their team loses. You've seen that Alou doesn't hold the fan responsible for the loss, I assume?

It's a sport. You win by beating your opponent.

[kmla]

46. Your theory has holes in it. Big ones.

You are assuming that if Alou catches the ball, then there are two outs. Fair assumption. But then you assume that the rest of the inning will unfold in the new scenario as it does in the old one. Bad assumption.

Players would have been playing in different places on the field due to 1 out vs. 2. The timing would have been different for the pitcher. Timing would have been different for the fielders. The pitcher would have pitched differently to all of the remaining batters. The batters would have swung the bat differently, trying just to make contact, instead of driving it to the outfield. There would have been many different things occuring simultaneously that would affect the game. Even the people in the stands would have interacted with the players differently, cheering on the players. Try to understand chaos theory. All of it is intertwined. The fan played only a minor part in this play.

You can THEORIZE that the fan is responsible for the rest of the 8th inning, but you can't PROVE anything. Big difference.

[Resistance]

50. ok

players would be playing the ball differently, assumed different positions, timings and pitches and batting would have been different. I am with that. The inning/game most definitely would not have continued in the same unfolding that it did, had there been 2 outs instead of 1 at that point. I really got that.

But here's the thing: In my hypothetical, you have to admit that I am at least assuming the worst of the Cubs players, by going along with the same unfolding, the same Gonzalez error, and the same hits off of Prior as what happened last night. And in this hypothetical situation, in which I grant all those mistakes and misjudgements from last night, the Cubs do still go on to win the inning, if not for the fan interference.

Sure, it is all theorizing, I admit that. And it is true that we'll never really know what pitches would have been made, or how at all the game would have unfolded. We just have no way of ever knowing. But, my point is that at least in my theorizing I do include awful play on the part of the Cubs, and it results in a Cubs lead at the end of the inning. Isn't that reasonable enough?

[Character Assassin]

48. Whaaaaaaaaaaaa! Here's what Tigger has to say about this....

Shut up, sniveller! Baseball is for wimps. Oh, hey, it's Roy and I'm starved......

[dajabr]

52. Why, in your explanation...

Does the runner on 2nd not score on Pudge's base hit? Is he on crutches? Just askin'...