Is This Child Abuse?

[arwalden]

What about piercing a baby's ears? What about circumcision?

-- Allen

[Nlighten1]

1. That is a pretty red X.

the link appears to be broken

[speckledgator]

2. red x's are child abuse though.....

[arwalden]

3. Sorry. --- Fixed Geocities Link... Moved Image To My Server...

Should be working now.

[moof]

6. This seems like a General Discussion thread

did you mean to post it in the Lounge ?

[arwalden]

32. You're Probably Right... But It Was A Toss-Up For Me...

... I chose the lounge because it seemed more like more of an ethical or medical topic than political.

-- Allen

[greatauntoftriplets]

4. That makes me want to (ecxuse me)

:puke:

That baby is maybe three or four months old, for chrissakes! You can tell by the birdlike look and the chicken legs that it has not yet filled out (wonder if he/she is being breastfed). I think that ear piercing should be a conscious decision, even by a preteen/teen kid bugging the hell out of the parents. If I had ever had a son, I would not have had him circumcized.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

41. circumcision causes serious injury, earpiercing does not

you would be hard pressed to have anyone call either one "abuse" though.

[eauclaireliberal]

5. Well, if its NOT abuse

its just a sign of what freakin' morons the parents are.

"Gee, mom...gee, dad-thanks for insuring my future as an unemployable dickhead. Now please lay off the Latte and heroin to change the huggies, okay?"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. Not all people with tattoos are...

unemployable dickheads. I have five. I am neither unemployable or a dickhead.

[Kamika]

7. Im sure its not a real one

If thats a real one its gonna look really bad when hes older. Im sure its just painted.

I got my ears pierced when i was 4 or something and i didnt mind it at all. If theres one thing small girls like it is to dress up pretty :)

And about circumcision, im sure its better to do it to the boy when hes young and can forget it, then do it when hes old.

Trust me you want to get your son circumcised

[CanuckAmok]

13. Late in life circumcision, here...

I've had it both ways, and prefer being "cut", for several reasons--was circumcised at age 20 for medical reasons. We're not having children, but if we had a baby boy, we'd get him a circumcision (under anesthesia, of course).

[Book Lover]

14. Why?

I trust you: what's the reason?

[Kamika]

15. heh

Lets just say its a plus when he gets a girlfriend

[Book Lover]

17. So the sex is better cut?

Because I have heard the exact opposite from women (not men) who have had it both ways. Anecdotal, I realize, but the three women who spoke about it were vehement that the act was more intense for them and their partners.

[Kamika]

19. not just "sex"

The whole "process" foreplay everything is better when hes cut, jesus just trust me

[Book Lover]

21. I am mature enough to deal with unquoted text

Why don't you just be straightforward and say what the "process" is? Foreplay? Fellatio? Intercourse? Heavy petting? Phone sex? Dinner and drinks?

[Kamika]

22. im not !!

Im still young and innocent !


But ok, foreplay especially in foreplay, and also during sex, the whole skin thingy gets in the way.

[VelmaD]

25. If you're "young and innocent" then...

how would you know? ;-)

Seriously, I've had plenty of both. And it's not whether the penis is cut or not - it's what the guy does with it and other assorted body parts.

[CanuckAmok]

34. I personally find 'dinner and drinks' better with a cut penis...

...but I can't speak for others.

In my case, my circumcision at age 20 was due to finding my increase in sexual activity (and about damned time, it was!), was tearing my foreskin (on an invisible-to-the-naked-eye-level), causing some minor discomfort. Also, hygeine is a much more simple process without a foreskin.

And, yes, orgasms are better, not that I ever met one I didn't like.

[DrBB]

30. Speaking as one who isn't

...I don't know what you're talking about. Never had any trouble with girls--some curious about it, some not. But it never "got in the way" as you say.

If you're really "young and innocent," maybe you're just voicing a meaningless prejudice, routed in inexperience. Welcome to it.

[Deja Q]

8. Child abuse AND selfishness on the part of the parents

And the implementation of tattoos aren't painless either.

The jury's out on piercing ears.

Circumcision only works on the males, though they're easier to clean if they're circumcized...

[VelmaD]

9. Depends on whether it's a real tattoo...

or a temporary. I'm figuring it isn't real. The place where I got my tats done has rules about tattooing anyone under 18 - they won't do it even with parental "permission". I think it might actually be a State law.

I'm thinking it's a temporary.

[1monster]

10. It looks like a temporary "tatoo" transfer to me...

It washes off with rubbing alcohol, or wears off with regular use of soap and water.

[speckledgator]

11. I would not take

it upon myself to make any such decision for a child, out of basic respect....it is their body, not my property

[Book Lover]

12. Cute temp tattoo!

C'mon - how could you get an infant to sit still for long enough to get delicate work like that done, even if it were spread over several sessions?

To the real point of your post: piercing and circumcision. When the baby leaves my uterus, s/he is no longer a part of my body, so I can't really dictate to my child any permanent alterations like that. Suffice to say that I do not believe in non-ritual circ under any circumstances.

PS - why is someone in the picture giving us the finger? :-)

[Padraig18]

16. Circumcision is battery

If it's not medically neccessary, how is it any less a battery than removing the clitoris, e.g.?

[speckledgator]

18. OUCH

it's not castration....lordy. But I would never do it

[Kamika]

23. dude

The equalent of removing the clitoris would be to remove the guys head(not the big one above his shoulders).


Circumcising is just getting rid of some extra skin thats just in the way anyway

[arwalden]

24. It's getting rid of over ONE HALF of the skin on a man's penis...

it's not just a little "extra" skin. It's not "in the way".

-- Allen

[ldf]

29. and there are a LOT of nerve endings in that skin that is removed.

one would think that the more sensitivity, the better, when it comes to sex, huh?

circumcision is male genital mutilation.

and it is my understanding that the original method of circumcision was to take a very little skin off the very tip of the foreskin. not the removal of the entire forskin. afterall, it was SYMBOLIC.

the skin is there for a purpose. it allows the shaft to slide back and forth much easier, thereby allowing easier intercourse. it also makes for easier masturbation.

cutting off part of your penis to be more aesthetically pleasing to a woman, is as absurd as pumping your breasts up with cancer causing agents to please a man.

neither should have to be done.

also, cleanliness is not a factor. if it were, peni would be dropping off, all over the world. but it doesn't seem to be happening. all it takes is about 5 seconds in the shower.

[CanuckAmok]

35. I disagree with many of your posts. See my posts above.

As an adult male who has had both an uncircumcised and circumcised penis, I definitely advocate circumcision.

Women, and men who only know one option really don't have the authority to comment on this subject to the degree we "converts" do.

Trust me, straight from the horse's mouth, circumcision (as a modern medical procedure) isn't battery, it's relief.

[Book Lover]

38. For you, yes, clearly it was indicated

but please, let us not commit the fallacy that what's good for one is good for all. It sounds like you were living with a condition that gave you pain, and you responded well to the treatment. I cannot believe, however, that every single uncir'd male who has ever lived has suffered in the way you did - for one thing, we humans wouldn't be born with a foreskin.

That said, I'm so glad you were able to gain relief! What a crappy thing to have to suffer through.

[CanuckAmok]

40. I was addressing someone else's sweeping generalization...

...of circumcision being 'battery'. Done under medical supervision, it's anything but.

[scarlet_owl]

36. I agree. Leave it there, it's not in the way.

The best sex I have ever had was with an uncircumcised guy. If I have a son, he won't be circumcised. There is nothing wrong with foreskin, but our culture seems to think there is.

[Padraig18]

39. The point was...

... that it is equally unneccessary, unless the child has phimosis, or some other condition requiring it's removal. Would you lop off an earlobe, just because of some ridiculous cultural bias which had no basis in medical science? :eyes:

[CanuckAmok]

42. Ack! it's an individual's right to choose!

When they are old enough to make an informed (or ignorant, for that matter) decision.

Listening to people who claimed it was unecessary and 'battery' is what prevented me from doing it years earlier, which would have saved me years of discomfort. Even my GP was against the procedure--I had to get a second consultation.

It's just as much as a cultural bias to be against curcumcision.

You need to do some more research before condemning the whole procedure.

[MuseRider]

20. Should have one

that says Born To Poop.

[populistmom]

26. I've really come full circle on circumcision

It all starts with my mom, who was a nurse in a neonatal intensive care unit when my younger brother was born. She saw many, many circumcisions and it's pretty brutal really. So when my brother was born in '73, he wasn't circumsized. Since my parents hung out with a more earthy type crowd, I remember when I was little seeing lots of little intact boys as a child. The problem came when my brother developed a seizure disorder which eventually became bad enough that his development was halted. He was and is profoundly mentally retarded. Anyway, when he was 17, because he had trouble caring for himself properly, he had repeated infections and was circumsized.

Fast forward a few years when I was first pregnant, I decided that I would have a boy circumsized largely due to the experience of my brother. First baby, a girl, phew, didn't have to worry. Second baby, boy, we circed. No problems. Third baby, another boy. We circed again and this time there were problems. My poor little guy had really sensitive skin and spent his first three years (until he was potty trained) with a constant red glans and neosporin on himself. Poor little guy.

When pregnant with my youngest, I really started to look into it a lot. I learned how its basically just either a religious thing or an American thing. I also learned it was as common in the UK until national health insurance stopped paying for it, then the rate went to almost nothing, most of the world (except for religious reasons), it's nonexistant in practice anymore. Even in America now, the rate, depending somewhat on region, is just over 50% getting circed now. I started reading how sex was supposed to be better for both partners. I really didn't see what the point was. I decided to make a decision based on facts I learned rather than myths or my worst fears (because of what happened with my brother).

So fast forward to now, my youngest is 2 and he has his little foreskin. No problems, it's starting just now to pull back a little, but I found leaving it alone is simple the best thing to do. I know people who think it's awful and I know most people think it's no big deal. I tend now to think it's a pretty radical solution (based largely on old Victorian taboos thinking masterbation could be prevented by circumcision) to a situation that really isn't a problem. I feel kind of bad I took a good 50,00 nerves ending from the penises of my older sons though. Knowing males though, they should do fine however.

Sexually, being an American woman (who's also been monogamous a llllooonng time), I've never experienced what it was like with a guy who wasn't, but I can imagine as long as he practiced appropriate hygiene, it would be just fine.

Here's some really good links for any expectant parents who might perhaps be making this decision:

http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-1-0/10-1-circumcision85.shtml
http://www.mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-1-0/10-1-protectuncircson103.shtml
http://www.nocirc.org/

As for ear piercings for girls, I waited until my daughter was 10. Earlier is okay, but I still kind of think it should be their choice.

Sarah

spell edit

[WWW]

31. ditto

Had my daughter, didn't have her circumsized. Had her brother a year later, also didn't...nuf said. Find it totally barbaric.

[EV1Ltimm]

27. i'd say so...

that poor baby is just about to be launched out of a catapult!

[Clete]

28. Excuse me but is that a tattoo on the kid's arm?

I had my ears pierced when I was less than a month old. I don't remember it and I don't see what's wrong with. I don't know about circumcision though, other than the fact that it's been around for several thousand years and not just among Jews. So there must be a reason it's been so popular for so long.

[BiggJawn]

33. Gotcha! It's a SPOOF, People!

Think it was originally called "babytat.com" or something like that. Coupla FM "Morning Zoo" jocks put the whole thing together...

Now, as for the side topic....
I have NEVER had a woman say "EWWWW! A CIRK!! Take me home RIGHT NOW! Hell NO, I'm not putting *MY* mouth on that mutilated thing!"

But then, i'm not fond of hairy pits and legs on women, either, so Your Milage May Vary....