evidence of our founding fathers' original intent

[hyphenate]

I have read enough materials on the subject, visited websites with long explanations on the subject, but I still can't convince my best friend that the founding fathers were NOT Christians, but Deists, Agnostics and Atheists. She insists that for every fact I find to uphold my POV, she can find a quote to uphold hers. So what do I do now?

[LARED]

1. So what do I do now?

Reconsider your position. In fact the founding fathers were largly either Christian or Deists, with a few Agnostics and Atheists.

[baldguy]

2. The Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

According to the Constitution, treaties are part of US law.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

more:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

edit:

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, haven seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

"Unanimously approved" by the Senate only 20 yrs after the supposedly Christian American revolution.

[davepc]

3. I suggest the collective writings of Jefferson and Washington

for starters.

Once she reads those and still insists on her belief then shes beyond help.

[hyphenate]

4. I've tried Jeffersonian logic

on her--Jefferson is my hero. It hasn't worked. I suppose I can try Washington, Franklin and John Adams on her....I'll try that.

[tjwmason]

5. It strikes me that there was genuine differences

On the one hand there were established churches in Connecticut, Massa(however you spell the damn place), and Virginia (perhaps others I'm working from memory); there are several quotations from them about the importance of religion; the Treaty of Paris (which ended the Revolutionary War) begins with the words "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity".

On the otherhand, you have Jefferson chopping up the Bible, you have an absolute refusal of a national religion (including any religious test), you have the Treaty of Tripoli, and you have the whole enlightenment character of all early American documents.

Religion permeated life far more then than it does now, and many thought nothing wrong with forcing people into religious practice. Surely the way forward is to acknowledge that America has been a land of religious diversity from before independence, and realise that this diversity is now growing stronger and wider - therefore exclusive religious statements become less and less relevant. America is not about a group of men 200 years ago (important though they certainly are), but about 200 million people living now and their needs.

[punpirate]

6. What you seem to be saying...

... is that you won't change her mind. I wouldn't waste any more time on her in this regard. The Constitution is clear. The law is clear. The founders themselves, particularly Madison and Jefferson, were clear on that subject, and their letters confirm the fact.

The country wasn't founded as a Christian nation (which is the implicit desire in her arguments, I suspect), and the proof of that is in the Constitution and its amendments.

Willful, stumbling, arrogant ignorance isn't repaired by knowledge, but, rather, by the acknowledgement of that knowledge. Your friend doesn't seem to want to see the truth, no matter how much of it you present.

However, if you haven't found these, use them as a last attempt :) :

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Cheers.

[Atlas Mugged]

7. Get a new best friend?

Seriously. I've been there. I've been very close to certain people and the only thing that got in the way of a tighter friendship was some religious difference in opinion. I moved on.