strippers are

[sniffa]

Poll question: strippers are

returning to the Lap dance - is it cheating? thread i am bLown away by some of the comments, and i'm not taLking about peopLe who disagree with my position.....

but caLLing them skanks, sLuts, bimbos, etc...

and this is coming from femaLe DUers.

this is a person you're caLLing a whore.


feeL free to eLaborate or not.


q: strippers are:

[progmom]

1. they are people earning a living

it's not the strippers i have a problem with. it's the whole socio-economic structure that drives them to stripping.

[aeolian]

2. Not everyone is "driven" to stripping

some people really are exhibitionists at heart.

[maxsolomon]

4. the industry is reprehensible

but in america, whatever. follow your bliss. turn every interaction between men & women into an economic transaction that debases sex.

its the american way.

[aeolian]

8. It's the oldest industry in humanity, not just the "American" way.

Hell, the Greeks had massive public orgies. I'm sure there was a dancer or two involved.

[sniffa]

14. no, no

it's just us fiLthy americans. :eyes:

[coloradodem2005]

48. It's more the industry itself that I have a problem with.

The industry is very seedy.

[StopTheMorans]

49. and prohibitively expensive

:thumbsup:

[LynzM]

3. They're people, doing a job.

It's not something I'd probably ever choose to do, given other alternatives. But there are many jobs I'd choose not to do, too. I think that as long as they're not forced to do it, it's their choice. I knew a girl who put herself through college that way, and made great money doing it. Up to them.

[terrya]

9. You've got it right.

Women...and men...who are strippers do so for a variety of reasons.But they're ultimately people....doing a job. Nothing more.

[sniffa]

13. i swear

most girLs we knew in coLLege made their rent that way.

[Heidi]

125. I absolutely agree.

I make a living using my mind primarily, but I see no reason why women should be denigrated for using their bodies to make a living. :hi:

[dajoki]

5. just people

who knows what reason they do what they do, they have a right to make a living too.

[eyesroll]

6. People.

Some strippers are whores (in that they also prostitute themselves), and some could be considered bimbos or whatever -- but so are some accountants and some electricians and some students and so on.

Your place of employment isn't your personhood.

[Trigger Hippie]

19. I agree totally (n/t)

[stellanoir]

7. none of the above

I agree with progmom.

In my profession, I often get flurries of clients from various professions 'cause of word of mouth.

About ten years ago, I had a flurry of strippers coming to me for advice. A lot of them were single moms.

With a couple exceptions, they were primarily all abuse victims. It was as though they were compelled to be completely naked and seemingly vulnerable in front of a bunch of guys and maintain control.

Unfortunately, all too many of them eventually fell for married dudes and they no longer felt empowered anymore.

Was really quite tragic.

[jswordy]

10. I submit that Option #6 is the only true liberal choice to make.

[Marnieworld]

11. I have no problem with strippers whatsoever

I think that they are providing a service for society. I truly do. I have no problem with female sexuality being expressed and I have no problem with others' voyeuristic pleasure from it. I have no problem with some making their living this way at all. If they are comfortable, if they happen to have a body that others would like to look at I really don't see what is wrong by using that gift to support oneself as opposed to any other gift one can use.

If men are by nature influenced by the visual and also by nature like a variety of stimulation I think this is much less harmful than cheating. A few drinks and some flirting with a pretty girl, big deal. We live in such a stressful world. What's wrong with a little dirty world where adults can just have a good time? I'm sure it beats the shit out of working in Wal-Mart. Now THAT's exploitation.

[jswordy]

15. Then will U post nekkid pix of yourself? I'm joking! Ow! Stop hitting me!

:rofl:

[Marnieworld]

16. I unfortunately, do not have THAT gift

well my hubby thinks I do so he gets his own lap dances. My gift is more in the land of smarts so that's how I make MY living.

[jswordy]

38. I say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

For example, I think Paris Hilton is a bag o bones.

:D

True story!

[MADem]

12. Strippers are useful in getting

...many layers of paint off a wooden surface, especially those with a lot of carving and whatnot on them. It's important to clean up your work area promptly, however!

Beyond that, I find the whole human stripper industry a bit pathetic, from both the worker and customer perspective. The workers need the money, they certainly do not care for their customers in any way, shape or form...and the customers are, plain and simple, losers.

[sniffa]

18. i never thought of it that way before

i'm a Loser... and so are many of your feLLow DUers.

and quite possibLe, that some DUers are money-grubbers.

[Marnieworld]

20. How dare you like Strippers?

What a loser! Shouldn't you be home curing cancer or something more worthwhile? :sarcasm:

[MADem]

87. Well, kid, if you have to pay a woman to get her to take off her clothes

...you aren't doing as well as you could. I understand that you have a clever wit and a winning personality, you should use it in your quest for a look at the female form in all its' glory, rather than pay for watery drinks and a load of fake everything. You could spend the money you save taking your lady friend out for a nice evening...and probably have plenty left over as well.

[sniffa]

88. pfft

not condescending in the Least.

[MADem]

91. No irony in your sig line, there!

Hey, your life, your choice. We all have opinions, and viewpoints. You live in your own skin...

[sniffa]

118. over my head on the sig Line

[MADem]

122. The bit about

...your first kiss. Ya know, the small grey print that appears at the end of every one of your posts, si"LL"y!

We all followed your activities at the recent DU event like the latest soap opera (with pictorial accompaniament--it was swell thread-theater, frankly!).

I was dismayed that the Boston conclave did not coincide with my presence in the region...I surely would have shown up! Then perhaps I could have witnessed the momentous event!

But seriously, son, you need to kiss a few more girls, and maybe spend less time in strip clubs...in the long run, you will be happier!

[sniffa]

126. *snicker*

i'm gonna work on that this weekend. ;)

i can't wait to kiss more girLs.

[BlondieK143]

127. Actually...

with an attitude like that, we're quite happy you didn't make it to the meet-up.

I'm so sorry - none of us realized that YOU were the expert on happiness. We'll try to do better in the future. :eyes:

[MADem]

132. I'm no expert, in fact, as I noted above

...it's all opinion.

That's what message boards are for--posting opinions, exchanging views.

Sorry I can't be just like you...but the world would be rather boring if we were all the same, wouldn't it?

[BlondieK143]

133. Yeah, I'm sorry you can't be too.

I'm a great person. :D

[sniffa]

134. who is that sexy bitch in your avatar

he's f'n hot!!!

[BlondieK143]

135. he's some lucky bitch

that got kissed by a hot girl. :D

[GirlinContempt]

117. That isn't the point.

It's not about necessity, it's about fun and pleasure. Sure, I can see women or men naked for free if I want to. But sometimes, seeing a professional dancing and teasing is fun and exhilarating. And it's something that can and often is shared with your partner.

[Wapsie B]

17. People. period.

If they've got the body to do it I say go for it. I've known women who put themselves through school this way. And the puritans thing they've had no influence on this godless society. Strippers are doing a job. If I were ever fortunate to ever be romantically involved with a woman who is or was a stripper I'd consider myself very lucky indeed.

[LisaL]

137. Lucky?

It ain't luck, it's $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[KingOfLostSouls]

21. I won't come down on strippers or porn stars

some of these girls come from bad situations and are honestly trying to do stuff like pay for college or whatever. We live in a society that is REMOVING opportunity, not HELPING.

isn't it ironic that the more REPUBLICAN a nation has become, the BIGGER the adult entertainment industry has become.

and just because a girl gives a lapdance and shows some skin doesn't make her a whore. I've been to a stripclub ONCE, and actually had a nice conversation with one girl where it was almost embarrassing to get a lapdance for my birthday because she was working on her nursing program and had to pay for it somehow. we talked college and she was like, "so how about that dance?" and I was like, "uhh, this is REALLY uncomfortable now." these are real people, and even girls who do porn, yeah its fucked up, but its why we're democrats

because we want to help create a society that rewards those who want to work, and not reward inherited wealth. not force them into a service industry of being waiters, sales clerks, retail, and all the other Reaganomics dreams that remove upward mobility and reduce us to the level of selling our souls, be it for fashion, stripping, porn, bussing tables.

you'd think so called feminists and women's rights advocates would have more empathy for girls who may not have came from the same priveleged background as them.

[mongo]

61. Actually, the legal adult industry grew to what it is today under

Clinton. Under Reagan and Bush Sr, there were prosecutions, and many legitimate companies went out of business.

When Clinton took office, he retooled the justice depts obscenity unit to remove it's focus from ADULT entertainment and onto CHILD PORNOGRAPHY.

There was not a single prosecution of adult obscenity from the feds during the entire Clinton Administration. Bush jr has once again focused on the adult industry, and there have been 20-30 prosecutions against ADULT PORNOGRAPHY. They have been going against mainly small internet operators, who are into fetishes way outside the mainstream (mostly scat fetishists), and there recent famous case against Extreme Assoc, where the federal judge in Pittsburgh declared the obscenity laws unconstitutional and threw the case out of court. The govt appeal is on the fast track to the appeals court. If the lower courts ruling is held up by the appeal court, look for many more prosecutions in different districts - to cause conflicting decisions in different parts of the country. They will try to time the point at which it reaches the Supreme Court to be when they have a conservative majority again.

[MADem]

90. Your points are valid

Vegas became "family friendly" under Clinton, and now, under Bush, it's "What happens in Vegas, STAYS in Vegas."

I certainly don't care one way or another about strippers from a moral perspective, though I do think some of their customers have some self-esteem (or perhaps pure laziness) issues.

They both have needs, the stripper for cash (and perhaps some sort of validation), the customer for faked attention that lasts as long as the money does, and the clever, using clown in the middle who owns the joint, serves the watery drinks and votes GOP is making money hand over fist.

[tjwmason]

22. They are men and women trying to support themselves and their families

Much much more could be said about the economic system which pushes many of them (pushes women more I would suspect) in this direction.

[Madrone]

23. As a female who said "skanky" in the thread in question -

and one who ALSO worked in a strip club (but not as a stripper) and had a stripper as a roommate for a couple of years - I come by the use of that word honestly. ;)

I've spent a lot of time in "titty bars" and around strippers - and yes, it is a sleazy business overall.


That said - I've had a number of friends that were strippers, but I didn't think their lifestyle was too kosher. As a woman, I think it's unfortunate that ANY woman feels that's how she should be making her living - but I'm not "against" it. Of ALL the strippers I've known, only one was really putting herself through school by doing it. Usually there are a lot of drugs involved, and loser boyfriends they also end up supporting. And lots of them collect welfare while bringing home hundreds of dollars per night. :shrug: Most strippers I've met or been around I really liked, and they were nice, kind girls - but I'd say 99% of them had some real issues, and that's how they ended up where they were.

[KingOfLostSouls]

39. I'd agree on the issues thing

and yeah, I do think a lot of stuff DOES stem from trauma. I've dated girls who were like, I'd be a stripper if I could, or mention it somehow in conversations. they'd all seemed to have had assaults previously too.

one thing having been around girls who were "victims" is that, from a male perspective, they go seeking ways to be saved, yet are still ashamed of what happened. I literally dragged one kicking and screaming to a counselor. we broke up, but it helped her in the long run. she was also a cutter.

this is a BIG reason I'm a liberal AND a democrat, is because take the issue of abortion. republicans would FORCE a girl to carry to term a rape baby, where as thats clearly one of those examples I believe they should be allowed and encouraged not to carry it to term. that while, yeah society is fucked up, we shouldn't beat on the victims. we should be calling out loser boyfriends and people who would exploit them. I mean, I like girls as much as most guys, but theres a clear difference between having some fun and exploitation.

until we work to make sure that people who have issues from victimization get over the stigma and realize that they need to be deprogrammed, its never gonna chance. yeah, they may be "skanky" and yeah, they make bad choices, but helping highlight the correct choices, and showing its ok, and giving people the ability to CHOOSE to do that, is the only way that in the long run things would succeed.

theres plenty of girls who will fuck or grind on a guy at a club for a diamond ring, a nice car, or just because he's famous. at least with a stripper shes saying cash up front.

[Cannikin]

24. It's at times like these the great heaven knows That we wish \

That we wish we had not so many clothes
So let's loosen up with a playful tease
Like all lovers did through the centuries

We're just following ancient history
If I strip for you will you strip for me?
We're just following ancient history
If I strip for you will you strip for me?
Uh-huh-huh

[Hobarticus]

25. An ex-girlfriend, later a single mom, raised her kid by dancing

She did what she had to do to care for her child. I'll always give her props for that.

[StopTheMorans]

28. replied in wrong place

[Hobarticus]

34. Huh? My point is, she was still a person, doing the best she could. n/t

[StopTheMorans]

35. see my reply below; i replied in the wrong place

[Hobarticus]

37. Ah. Yeah, that is prostitution. n/t

[Skittles]

26. you're paid to grind on a strange man's boner?

if that ain't skank I'd hate to know what your definition of skank is

[KingOfLostSouls]

33. have you ever been to a dance club?

lotsa girls will do that if you have a nice car or a good set of abs.

and for free no less.

[Skittles]

36. yes and they're called SKANKS

nt

[sniffa]

40. how do/wouLd you feeL

if i caLLed you a skank (or any such insuLt, intended mainLy for women)?

[Skittles]

43. sniffa, I've called many men SKANKS

believe me I am EQUAL OPPORTUNITY; why just the other day a guy at work asked me out and I said NO THANKS; I PREFER NOT TO DATE MEN WHO F*** ANYTHING THAT MOVES. He said WHAT DO YOU MEAN and I flat-out told him I THINK YOU'RE A SKANK. So there. :D

[KingOfLostSouls]

42. No, they're called "modern girls."

the ratio of females who go to clubs and wear clothes too tight to move in and grind on some dude whos a roid monkey wearing a tight shirt is pretty hilarious.

why come down on strippers, when theres a LOT of girls out there who may shop at abercrombie & fitch, come from the suburbs, and go to church who do that shit for free?

hell, catholic schoolgirls are some of the worst ones I've seen.

and man, preachers daughters....

so before we go jumping on strippers, maybe a lot of modern females should take a look at western society women as a whole.

personally, I blame Cosmo and The View.

[Skittles]

44. Cosmo has been around for years

I never went to clubs but I remember Cosmo back in the 70s I think

[KingOfLostSouls]

50. Well, maybe you should

strippers aren't the only ones who are skanks


we live in a society of skanks, both men and women.

but at least with a stripper you pay and get a lapdance, theres plenty of girls who will do stuff for free.

its like the Tupac song, "Wonder why they call you bitch?"

theres tons of girls who will sleeze up onto someone if they got a nice watch, a nice car, a nice chest, whatever.

theres plenty of what we call "successful women" who have no problem grudge fucking some dude they pick up at a bar to get back at their boyfriend or who have "daddy didn't love me enough" syndrome.

so its like, why come down on strippers, theres plenty of girls who you give them a couple shots of jaeger will put on a show for free.

just go to a college party, a dance club, whatever. its all around.

[Skittles]

51. I am none of the women you are describing

believe me, we do exist. And where did I ever say skanks are limited to strippers? Also please see post #43.

[KingOfLostSouls]

52. I never said you were

I'm just seeing a lot of hate towards it and its like, as a young male living in todays society, there are a LOT of girls like that.

even ones who are friends who may be intelligent educated young women do some seriously skanky shit, maybe not with me but some other dude, and you're like, "wow that was pretty trashy."

point being, if strippers are so bad, I think people need to open their eyes to the world around them.

its the greatest open secret of our time.

[Skittles]

55. thanks

I don't think strippers are inherently bad and I would never suggest that such activity be banned or anything like that. I simply draw the line at respecting it - I get tired of seeing women participate in their own degradation and yes a lot of the women you describe fall into that category. Men can too. It's got nothing to do with monogamy or loving one's body - it's a self-respect issue. OOH and I would NEVER suggest anyone "deserves" any kind of violence inflicted on them - oh, I cannot stand that attitude at all.

I actually think stripping can be an art form - I've seen old tapes of Gypsy Rose Lee - but not that pole/lap dancing shit so prevalent around where I live.

[UncleSepp]

69. Yay Gypsy Rose Lee!

I don't care for what passes as "stripping" now, but man if I wouldn't love to see a good old burlesque show. :-D

[HeeBGBz]

114. At least I was upfront about it.

Think of all the players who will work up a guy who appears to have money. Make him and take him for his cash and leave him burnt and bitter. Stripping is a lot more honest, IMO.

There are all kind of ho's in this world.

I don't know what state you live in, but when I was in the business in the 70's you were NOT allow to touch a customer during a table dance. Whereas, if you are just at some dance club (not a strip club) you can get away with the boner bit. Geez. Look at dancing itself nowdays, people humping on the dance floor like drunk monkeys. What's the difference?

[SarahB]

27. People

To me, judging another person in such a way dehumanizes them to a level where it can be deemed acceptable to perpetrate violence on them- i.e. "well she asked for it; she's just a stripper". People are f*cking people and I completely agree with you. Our sexuality is not dirty, skanky, or whatever uptight people want to say. How consenting adults want to express it (being honest with their primary partners of course), it's their business. No one else's.

edit:
Here's some awesome, kick-ass strippers: http://www.eda-sf.org/

[Skittles]

47. I never said it was any of my business

and I would never "blame the victim". But I'm tired of being told that to be progressive I'm supposed to believe it's "empowering" for women to degrade themselves. It never has been and it never will be.

[SarahB]

53. In terms of this thread...

I just happen to disagree with you. I empathize with young girls who have rough backgrounds and no choice, but I people view sexuality in different ways. Many people may not find it degrading. I probably wouldn't grind on a stranger for money, but I've made sexual choices that other people might think aren't good, but they were right for me when I made them. It's not up to me to define "degrading". I respect you a lot, Skittles, but I do happen to disagree here.

I think too often our society demonizes women's sexuality and overall, it's a slippery slope when it's done. In societies where it gets out of hand in terms of limiting female sexuality, there's burkas, stonings, and genital mutilation. In societies where female sexuality is more open and acceptable- i.e. many European and Scandinavian countries, it sure seems that the society is pretty darned good with how it handles most things (workers rights, health care, etc.)

No, I'd hate to see any woman feel forced into something that wasn't 100% her choice, and our country needs to do a lot more in regards to worker's rights in many industries, but it doesn't mean anyone should be looked down upon for what may very well be right for them for whatever reason.

[noonwitch]

29. They are troubled young women

They are women with serious problems, just like prostitutes or anyone else who puts a dollar value on their sexuality. Most were probably molested or sexually abused as kids, maybe by someone who gave them money, presents or privileges in exchange.

[mongo]

71. They are women with serious problems

No, they are people. Some strippers have serious problems, like people in ANY industry. Most come from the lower economic classes, which is more a causal factor of the problems they may have than anything. But by no means is stripping a symptom of a problem.

I know many strippers. They love me - I sell them shoes! Most are very pleasant young women just trying to make a living.

Most were probably molested or sexually abused as kids, maybe by someone who gave them money, presents or privileges in exchange.

Have any reputable proof of that? Or is this only conjecture?

[StopTheMorans]

30. all of my friends in college who went to strip clubs paid to get blowjobs

and some paid for more. in every strip club they went to, they did that. i'm not saying that is a representative sample of all strip clubs, or that i think prostitution is evil, but if that isn't prostitution, i don't know what is.

[chickenscratching]

31. Most definitely people

Though, I can understand people's tendency to disapprove because we live in a society where monogamy is upheld as the "right way" . Unfortunately sexuality isn't embraced as much as it could be, it's a stilted stilted thing: unless you're hetero and married.
Thankfully, some of our puritanical ways are heading out. I'm happy for this, because the human body is a beautiful thing, sex is a beautiful thing, and there's a big difference between sex and love that I don't think we see.
We're animals, we're being pushed along by evolutionary forces, we feel bad if we have a boyfriend and they look at another man or woman. That's ok! It's ok if you feel good about it too ! What really matters is If it's ok with your SO and you, go for it. But make sure you're being honest with yourselves.

We place so much pressure on sex , marriage, prostitution and stripping socially, educationally, religiously, that it becomes a BIG DEAL. Which is shouldn't. Take a walk down a red-light district or a nude beach in the netherlands, you know who the Americans are: the one's with the fascinated looks on their faces while it's just normal everyday stuff for the netherlanders---BUT that doesn't mean that the body and sex isn't embraced because it's an everyday thing, on the contrary it no longer is a faux pas or taboo, and can be discussed in an comfortable manner.

I hope someday we can truly accept our bodies, our love, our gender, our sex, life's too short to waste time on this bullshit, make your dreams come true, be confident, spend time with the people you wanna.
ahoyo.

As for strippers: personally, like I said I am in love with the male and female body, seeing a woman or man do their thing with confidence and enjoyment is an amazing, amazing thing.

[SarahB]

45. Very good answer!

The human body is beautiful, sexuality is joyous, and it certainly isn't like this everywhere in the world. All this shame and guilt crap f*cks people up more than anything. Be safe, but have fun (whatever that definition may be for you and your partner(s) ).

[mongo]

74. sex and love

there's a big difference between sex and love that I don't think we see.

I really wish that sexual experiementation was more accepted in our society. Think about how much better we could be at forming marriages that last if we really knew what we wanted, who we could be monogomous (or not) with, and recognize new relationship energy as more of a intoxicating drug than divine destiny - if sex in general was more permissive and prevelent without the need for pair bonding and serial monogomy.

Maybe we need to go back to having the Greek style orgies every so often. Think of all the steam that would blow off!

Kudos to you and Sarah Belle too for both of your well written posts!

[MADem]

136. Blowing off steam at

Greek style orgies? Justice Scalia...is that you?????:evilgrin:

(Reference for those who do not know what I am talking about: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1317386,00.html )

He is the conservative bastion of the US supreme court, a favourite of President Bush, and a hunting partner of the vice-president. He has argued vociferously against abortion rights, and in favour of anti-sodomy laws.
But it turns out that there is another side to Justice Antonin Scalia: he thinks Americans ought to be having more orgies.

Challenged about his views on sexual morality, Justice Scalia surprised his audience at Harvard University, telling them: "I even take the position that sexual orgies eliminate social tensions and ought to be encouraged."

[mongo]

138. LOL!

What I wouldn't give to be in Scalia's shoes. If I could perfect the art of demonic possesion - he is near the top of the list of people to interject my conciousness into.

[DaBigBadJoiseyWolf]

32. I love the "Support Jersey's economy and tip a Stripper" bumper stickers

I gotta get one for my car!

[WeRQ4U]

41. Naked people, who minutes ago, were not naked.

[aeolian]

54. Downfall of society.

newly naked people.

[gmoney]

46. Say what you like, but most are egalitarian...

...at least to the degree where most everyone's money in a strip club is equally good.

Old, ugly, fat, skinny, white, black, whatever, they at least ACT like every patron is worth the time of day. At least for one song.

A lot of guys go to strip clubs for the attention, flirting and conversation, without the risk of rejection that one faces at a nightclub or bar.

(Why do I get the feeling I'm going to regret posting this?)

[tjdee]

56. Where can straight women go for that?

??????

I've not seen statistics, but I think many more men go to those kind of clubs than women do--and the male strippers aren't even that hot.

The things we do in this society to massage men's egos. (I already regret saying that. I really am a nice person, not all men think I'm a feminazi scary person, LOL.)

[sniffa]

60. where can women go

to a pLace that caters to their needs. if there is not such a pLace, then one shouLd be started.

[tjdee]

64. I wonder if that would contribute to a breakdown of emotional intimacy...

Just thinking out loud here and carrying your reply to an absurd extreme. If men in relationships are totally free (without nagging/any kind of stigma) to go to strip clubs/watch porn/have lap dances, even have meaningless sex whenever... and women are free to do the same... if sex is completely detached from commitment/emotional issues....what would that look like?

Where do we draw the line? Is there a line?

:shrug:

I am a prude, I admit it.

[mongo]

76. I think ultimately it would lead to stronger committed relationships

People would certainly learn what they like, and would learn to separate attraction and new relationship energy from qualities that truly lead to long term compatibility.

People would learn that some are by nature monogamous, some are not, and some can be with the right person. And they would seek out a partner who matches their temperament.

And if there was a socially acceptable outlet for pent up desire (Mayday orgies anyone?) it would let people blow off steam without a danger of ruining their relationships.

[aeolian]

65. Y'all got your own strip clubs, too.

Just head down to your local equivalent of the Golden Banana. If you don't have a male strip club in your area, you probably live in a very repressed area. Just guessing. :toast:

...although, women don't really need to pay to see a man naked...you can probably just ask.

And, please, women need their egos massaged as much as any man does. By the way, you look beautiful today; those earrings really suit you. Does my chest not look virile and masculine? :)

[mongo]

77. Don't give me any ideas....

Where can straight women go for that?

Actually, there are a few phone sex lines catering to women now. If you can't find any, give me a call (just kidding).

[El Fuego]

57. Skanks.

But hey, I totally respect their choice to be a total skank. Skanks are people too.

Whether they are whores or not is another matter. If they turn tricks on the side, which many do, then they are "whores" by definition. But I know there are lots of fine upstanding respectable skanks supporting their kids by stripping.

[tjdee]

59. What are the men called, who pay for these services?

?

[pdx_prog]

68. haha.....Idiots I would say....

[El Fuego]

70. Ummm... customers?

[tjdee]

58. One of my very close friends was a stripper....

She didn't do lap dances though, if memory serves. She made some crazy money.

I think they're women doing a job. I *do* dislike lap dances...

[Taverner]

62. Stripping is an honorable professsion, and it makes damn good $$$

But whiskey tango foxtrot, I think prostitution is an honorable profession.

Honestly, what's the difference between selling your seduction skills to the highest bidder and selling your technical skills to the highest bidder?

[bettyellen]

63. when you're working at walmart, the world doesn't say you like abuse, do

they?
in what other job do people feel compelled to say you're only doing because you are emotionally screwed up? and it's only people who dislike the practice- that feel quite okay making judgements as to complete strangers and their mental status.
all the flaky things people have said about strippers sounds exactly like what i've seen and heard about everybody in the resturant or entertainment business. so lets go after them next, especially if you catch your SO giving them a second look. I really feel like they take the rap for men who like to look at them, in a way. and i think a lot of the weirdness comes from women who wish to the high heavens their men would never have a fleeting thought about other women. so, lets go punish the women.

[freeplessinseattle]

129. Thank you for a voice of reason (nt)

[bettyellen]

141. you're welcome

simply stated, haven't we all worked with substance abusers, posers, control freaks, anorexics, people with suspicous bruises, crazy attention whores and lying fucks?
i know i have, and i'm not a stripper. (not that there's anything wrong with that)

[redqueen]

66. I voted "people"... but I wanna say...

I wish I had worked at a strip club when I had the chance. I would like to know once and for all the reality behind the myth.

Too many men have told me about the stripper with a heart of gold, who only did it to pay for college or raise her kids or whatever... but what message was she sending to those kids? Is a drug dealer with a heart of gold afforded the same respect?

Also, I've known a few strippers, and every single one was seriously dysfunctional. I'm not saying I'm not ... I have my issues as well... but seriously... if we, as liberals, are supposed to be concerned with everyone's well-being, then why ignore the possibility that being psychologically damaged is what's behind these women's desire to exploit their bodies this way?

I'm all over the place on this issue... I struggle with it, I really do.

If I had some reasonable expectation that these women really are doing it for themselves and for healthy reasons, I would be fine with it.

However, I look at my actions. I look at my life... at what I've done... and I think about my history... and I can't say that using myself as an example that I'm reassured one tiny bit.

[Taverner]

67. However...

I've worked in the tech industry a while and I find that every single programmer I've ever met was seriously dysfunctional as well - by the same logic the programmer might be damaged by his or her profession...

I think that most women who are attracted to Stripping have the dysfunctionality already...and that long ago they developed the ability to compartmentalize sex as a coping mechanism.

Just as programmers developed introverted personalities conducive to programming long lines of C code as a coping mechanism to deal with being made fun of as a child for being different.

Through sheer will, we turn our weaknesses into strengths...

[redqueen]

79. Yes, but that's not an honest comparison, is it?

I mean, the geeks were dysfunctional because they were teased at school... that's the implication, yes? And they were teased for being good at math / smart / something similar?

Cause here's the thing... these women... or at least not the ones I knew... they were not teased at school for being attractive. They were molested by relatives / close friends of the family. I've only known 4, so please don't think I'm extrapolating this to mean that all strippers were molested. I just think it warrants discussion / observation.

Don't you think that makes it a wee bit different? Also, another distinction is that in the programming job, the nerd is no longer subject to the same hostility as they were in school at the hands of the bully - or rather that humiliation is no longer reinforced... however the woman with a damaged psyche is, in a way, still being humiliated (however at least now with her consent, and for compensation)...

I'm not decided on the issue... I just wonder...

[Taverner]

95. I think it still flies...

The programmer doesn't get the same hostility, true, but they still have the damaged psyche. And I'm not talking about a little bit of bullying here...

One of the programmers I work with was severely teased as a kid. One of the bullies when he was in 1st grade forced rocks into his rectum. Sick stuff...and the kind of thing that turns one into a misanthrope pretty easily.

And as for the stripping, I'm not quite sure it's humiliation. She is turned into an object, true - but so is anyone who works for a corporation. You are not an employee, but a human resource , in essence stripped of your humanity and instead an object which numbers can be run against.

The stripper is seen sexually and lustfully, but if you don't see sex as a bad thing then there is no humiliation. To think that men don't do this mentally to women with their clothes on is a bit naive.

[redqueen]

113. Good points...

thanks. :)

And yeah I guess I can be a little naive, somehow.

[plcdude]

72. as in most cases

it all depends on the internal motivations of the individual. Some strippers are exhibitionists, the problem is that it very difficult to find a significant other that tolerates exhibition so relationships break down. It is sort of a vicious cycle. I think there is nothing wrong with exhibitionism as long as their partner is part of it and you have mutually agreed upon limits. That is the healthy side of it. The dark side involves meeting the needs of their addictions and is the most efficient way of meeting them. I would guess alot of strippers have drug issues. If my wife wanted to show off her beautiful body then we would have to work out how that could happen that would not hurt us as a couple. But, of course, you never know what it is going to like until you are in the situation.

[redqueen]

80. All four strippers I've known had drug issues.

I can't help thinking there may be another dark side to it... acting out old situations in an attempt to resolve your feelings about them. Not sure... really curious, though.

[sniffa]

75. weLL

i had 2 stripper roomates in coLLege. one, was reaLLy fucked up, ran away, and was stripping for food money whiLe she was homeLess. i took her in (i knew her before she went off the deep end. i hadn't taLked to her in about 2 years when i ran into her on the street) and she continued to strip because that's aLL she knew.

the other, was the most seLfish, and crueL person i may have ever known personaLLy. she stripped, because it made her a ton of cash. she had a List of 'cLients' who she wouLd caLL whenever she'd work so they'd aLL be there and she'd make maximum Loot. she had a phoney bank account, to hide her stripper money. when i ever found out how much she had saved over the past 2 years, i aLmost fainted. this was a buisiness to her, and she squeezed every Last doLLar she couLd out of it.

eh, 2 anecdotes that probabLy mean nothing.

[redqueen]

81. Yes... I hate that about anecdotes...

I've thought seriously about writing a book about strippers... go and talk to them... find out how they think and feel... instead of just using my experience because that just confuses me.

I really wish I'd tried it sometimes... just so I'd know more for myself. Hearing the few strippers I knew rant about their coworkers wasn't exactly information I considered reliable... to listen to them, they're ALL lesbians, they ALL hate men, they ALL do drugs, etc. etc. etc.

[Madrone]

89. One of the best things I ever did was work in a club -

AND have the stripper roommate. It was VERY enlightening. The business SUCKS - totally sucks.

Many of them really do start to hate men - or at least the men that frequent strip clubs. And drugs are EXTREMELY prevalent.

The inside of a strip club is sometimes like another world - I worked in a Deja Vu - they're all nude so don't serve alcohol. THANK GOD - alcohol would have made things pretty bad, I think. The club also had a little "sex shop" (where I worked) up front - and the 25 cent mini movie booths.

Anyone that's ever been to the Kalamazoo Deja Vu knows exactly what I'm talking about. It was verrrrrrrrrry interesting.


There were some local cops that used to hang out in there a LOT - pigs, really, in both senses of the word. They liked to play BIG MAN in there, and solicit the girls. They were pretty gross.

[redqueen]

92. I just want to know more...

like how many prostitue themselves... how do they feel about stripping / or prostituting if they do that as well... I just wish I could believe they're all happy and well-adjusted.

[Madrone]

97. happy and well-adjusted

They're not. Sadly. Many of them are also not consciously aware of it either. A generalization? Sure - but not one without merit.

Ani DiFranco wrote a song that says it rather well -


Letter To A John


don't ask me why I'm crying
I'm not going to tell you what's wrong
I'm just gonna sit on your lap
for five dollars a song
I want you to pay me for my beauty
I think it's only right
'cause I have been paying for it
all of my life

I'm gonna take the money I make
I'm gonna take the money I make
I'm gonna take the money I make
and I'm gonna go away...

we barely have time to react in this world
let alone rehearse
and I don't think I'm better than you
but I don't think that I'm worse
women learn to be women
and men learn to be men
and I don't blame it all on you
but I don't want to be your friend

I'm gonna take the money I make
I'm gonna take the money I make
I'm gonna take the money I make
and I'm gonna go away...

I was eleven years old
he was as old as my dad
and he took something from me
I didn't even know that I had
so don't tell me about decency
don't tell me about pride
just give me something for my trouble
'cause this time, it's not a free ride

I'm gonna take the money I make
I'm gonna take the money I make
I'm gonna take the money I make
and I'm gonna go away...

don't ask me why I'm crying
I'm not going to tell you what's wrong
I'm just gonna sit on your lap
for five dollars a songs
I want you to pay me for my beauty
I think it's only right
'cause I have been paying for it
all of my life

now I just wanna take
and I'm just gonna take
I'm gonna take
and I'm gonna go away

[redqueen]

98. Oh my God...

:cry:

That really hurts...

[Madrone]

99. Me?

Or the song? I hope I didn't offend you... :(

It's a lovely song - in a sad, depressing way. Ani RULES.

[redqueen]

107. The song...

No, you didn't offend... far from it.

I like Ani but was never into her enough to buy anything. I may rectify that soon, though.

Thanks for sharing that... it hurt to read it... but it was a good kind of pain. Does that make sense?

[Madrone]

116. It makes sense.

Beautiful, haunting song.

Buy Living In Clip - it was my first exposure to her, and what hooked me. Her live stuff is VASTLY superior to the studio albums I've heard, although I've only heard a fraction of them.

If I were a stripper, I'd fucking LOVE dancing to that song. ;)

[coloradodem2005]

111. That does hurt.

[Taverner]

105. All this song tells me is that Ani Di Franco chose the right profession

And the profession of Stripper is one she was best not to investigate...

[HeeBGBz]

106. I don't know many happy, adjusted people in any profession

Lots and lots of make-do people.

[redqueen]

109. Ain't that the truth!

My counselor rants about how employers treat people... I love it. :)

[bettyellen]

110. but in ny, i've met so many wanna be actors singers models and they don't

want a safe quiet sober life. far from it. they want attention, they want to get high. maybe if their careers turned out better they wouldn't be pole dancing or turning tricks. but right or wrong, they wanted no part of the 9-5. so they choose another grind, so to speak.
i think they'd be cokeheads no matter what they did, but getting up early in the morning just wasn't their thing.

[redqueen]

112. God I love your take on this.

Thank you!

[bettyellen]

115. i just think it's in them already.....

i know somedays i'd do almost anything to not go to work myself.
i had lots of friends like this when i was young. i had a friend who was a virgin who dated a male escort. he worked the acadamey awards that year. we were sort of proud of him.
he just didn;t want to put in an eight hour day. he liked being paid for dinner and club hopping. he wanted what he wanted, and it wasn't all good, but he grew up got married, had kids and lives down the street from bill clinton now. i guess it all didn't go up his nose.
and thank you, i like that you're conflicted. people are not ever so easy to peg. apparently i'm a skank because i've ground my ass into guys at clubs. LOL. well, where i came from it happened a lot on dance floors-- no biggie at all.

[enigmatic]

73. people, just like anyone else...

There are screwed-up people in every job, everywhere. The most batshit crazy bunch of people I've ever seen in my life in one job was in music, yet I don't see the morality police here coming down hard on them. Hell, go look at people who have to work at Wal-Mart to support their familes if you want to see what a true degrading job is.

[progmom]

78. people are really voting for whores/skanks/sluts/bimbos?

x(

They are people making a living. People. Just like bank tellers and CPAs and dish washers... Some are doing it because it is all they know. Some are doing it because they have a talent and enjoy it. Some have fucked up reasons for doing it. But it's a job - and a legal one at that.

[sniffa]

82. but don't you at Least appreciate

the ones who are posting that they voted for those?

[progmom]

86. sure - the explanations help

but there are way more votes in those categories than i expected.

[redqueen]

93. You must've missed the thread

about the 16-year-old girl who was gang raped on video. When the only one of her attackers stood trial and was acquitted, it made for an eye-opening day in GD, I tell you.

[progmom]

94. oh i saw that

x(

[StopTheMorans]

84. one of the votes for "whores" was mine

check out my post earlier in the thread re: strippers who have sex for money, and then check out this definition of "whore" from webster.com.

Main Entry: 1whore
Pronunciation: 'hOr, 'hor, 'hur
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English hore, from Old English hOre; akin to Old Norse hOra whore, hOrr adulterer, Latin carus dear -- more at CHARITY
1 : a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : PROSTITUTE; also : a promiscuous or immoral woman
2 : a male who engages in sexual acts for money

I'm not saying that all strippers have sex for money, but I know for a fact that all of the strip clubs my friends went to in college in WNY contained strippers who did just that. if you're going to play semantics; all of the strippers my friends saw in college were, by the definition above, "whores". hence my vote; i personally have nothing against strippers, or that profession.

[HeeBGBz]

83. As an ex-titty dancer I must say to the skank, ho, slut people

If you're holy enough to cast that first stone, more power to you.

All the rest can kiss my pale white aging ex-moneymaker.

[enigmatic]

85. You're cool w/ me...

I'd hang out w/ you anyday of the week.

[HeeBGBz]

102. Hugs and good times

If I ever run to the north, I will drop by and say hi

[Taverner]

96. Awesome!

Why is it a guy is sexually active an he's a hero, but if a woman does it she's a slut?

[HeeBGBz]

103. One of life's little unfairities

Life is chock full of those.

[Redstone]

100. Generally more naked when they're finished work

than they were when they started.

Redstone

[Redstone]

101. Oops. Dupe post.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

104. Seriously?? People were using names like that??!

:wtf:

[Taverner]

108. I have known two strippers

Christina was my roomate in college. She was in law school, and she loved her job as a stripper. Not quite as much as she loves being a lawyer, but she honestly Loved her job. She was athletic, very beautiful and loved to control people. Manipulative is one word I would use to describe her. Ally is another word, and one for which I was thankful. She was able to get my half-crazed post-teenage butt out of trouble on several occasions. As far as I knew, she had no issues with molestation, but never knew her father either.

Jodelle was a bit different - she had self esteem issues, but hell who doesn't. She was my friends girlfriend a while back. She didn't like the job, and turned her talents towards growing pot instead. She liked that work much better. Still has self esteem issues though.

[samplegirl]

119. Alright i guess

as long as there not "your" wife!!

[iconoclastic cat]

120. ...making more money than I am.

[The Blue Knight]

121. As an 18 year old male, I have no problem with the stripping industry.

[TankLV]

123. Hey - if I thoucht I had a nicer body than I think, maybe I'd strip, too!

They make tons of money really quick.

Have a good friend who is a male stripper and has now quit and become very successful at real-estate speculation - just needed a quick nest egg to get started.

That's what I call using his ass-sets!

[NMMNG]

124. As far as I'm concerned regarding strippers

They're just people earning a living.


If I'd had the looks and body back when I was 18 or so I probably would have done it for a few years to make money for college. Sure would have beat working multiple jobs for chump-change.

[lildreamer316]

128. HEY! STRIPPER HERE! (rant)

Damn people.You all are driving me crazy.
Look. The intricacies of a life in the biz are many and would take a year to explain, so I will try to be concise.
BIO: Raised in a middle-class southern family NO ABUSE EVER.
NEVER EVER EVER TRIED COCAINE: I HATE IT. SMOKED POT TWICE. I have never been addicted to anything except dancing. I just had my first child with my husband at age 31. I am not broke (now).
Yes, there have been and will probably always be a good portion of women in this industry who are cokeheads or worse. Who do a lot more in the VIP than they are supposed to,and go home with the customers. We have not progressed far enough in society to say this is preventable, whether you are at a strip club or a regular nightclub.
Back when I started in the biz in 1994, it was all about the show.
Things were based on THEE DOLLHOUSE model, and Vegas show clubs.
You were expected to be a lady. Don't laugh,I'm serious.You did not dare be late to stage. You did not dare have ratty shoes/garter/clothes. You did not dare wear a short dress on stage. You HAD to have a tan, unless you were pulling the milky-white-maiden/Victorian dark-haired thing. You did not dare exit the dressing room without your hair DONE and your makeup PERFECT. We had nightly nail inspections and weekly weigh-ins.
TOP PRIORITY:CUSTOMER SERVICE.
You did not talk to the gentleman about your asshole boyfriend or whine pitifully about your late rent. You make him the topic of conversation. You flirted. SMILE SMILE SMILE. You did not smoke or chew gum while walking across the floor . You did not CARRY YOUR OWN DRINK.
(Is this really much removed from waitressing or retail,both of which I've done extensively? C'mon)
***THE ULTIMATE GOAL WAS TO SEE HOW MUCH MONEY YOU COULD GET WITHOUT TOUCHING THE PERSON OR TAKING YOUR CLOTHES OFF**
In other words, its a mind-fuck, masquerading as a physical one. The REAL pros can get a month's salary just talking to the right gentleman. Many do have to dance, but not grind. If I have to grind I don't work. Now, these days that makes for a thin schedule, because the industry in many insider's opinion has lost it's way, and does not "train" their customers or their girls. Right now it is all about the lowest common denominator.But, that is a whole other discussion. What I am saying is, many of you don't understand how intricate this industry really is,and how it really works. The women many of you are describing have used the industry for what they needed and moved on. There's another layer, filled with people as complex diverse,and INTELLIGENT as this DU board. The customers are the same.
IMPORTANT: IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE T&A. REALLY.
Many a customer I have had remains my friend to this day precisely because I refused to give them everything, or even one thing (a dance). They like a woman who won't give in to them because they are powerful and have money. They like a woman who will call them out. They like a woman who they can verbally "spar" with,and who will then have a drink with them and give them 2.3 min. of seduction close enough to smell but not to touch (not meaning THAT; scent of a woman type thing).Thees men like the game-then they leave and don't have to worry about calling me or whether or not I'm gonna be pissed because they forgot the milk. They want a girl who will party with them and give them a little bit of eye candy; fantasize that maybe they have a chance,and then GO HOME TO THEIR WIVES.
As to the club : Running a strip club is an art unto itself. There is so much to know and to do it is mind-boggling. My husband has been a strip club DJ for 16 years, 6 in Vegas, 3 in Dallas, also west coast and now east coast. To have the perfect party atmosphere where everyone is making money and having a good time takes the whole club working together. You need DJ's that can read the crowd perfectly; when the crowd is following the dj's lead, then the dancers are having fun and they fall right in line. If they dancers are bouncing around having a good time feeding off the energy of the crowd, it just cycles back in ad we're off on the party of a lifetime. I know that sounds corny but I have seen it happen. You don't need drugs. You don't even need to get drunk,really. It's a great feeling, and I've seen it happen
I don't mean to sound condescending, but you have no idea what it is like. There are those of us who visit the industry and leave. Then there are those of us for whom it is in our blood forever. Yes, I am a Leo,and I freely admit I love the attention.This may be a psychological "problem", but instead of going to therapy, I found this creative outlet to deal with my problem. Before I started dancing, I was trying to find this validation in all the wrong ways,and that got me into trouble several times. Now, I couldn't be happier with my emotional state, and my relationship thrives. When my fiance of 8 years died in a motorcycle crash, guess who was there for me the most? My "stripper" family and my club. They supported me and protected me at a very hard and vulnerable time in my life. Just like here, we are all one big very dysfunctional family.
Sorry for the long ramble rant & life story, but you guys really have no idea. We have our own code and our own way of living. The only ones who can truly write a book about it are the ones living it.
Read STRIP CITY by Lily Burana or IVY LEAGUE STRIPPER by Lynn Snowden. There are others, I also recommend DEFENDING PORNOGRAPHY by Nadine Strossen. This is not a complete telling of how things are, but as I said that would take all year.
I love what I do. I set my limits about what I will do in my job. The important thing here is that ***I*** set my limits. Sure, I have it good--I am not desperate for money. But even when I was, I just got another job.However,I I realize that I probably got lucky. Just wanted to give you all the perspective from this side of the t-bar.
I really do this because I hate schedules and structure--I'm lazy!
:evilgrin:
Flame away.

[freeplessinseattle]

130. great post and you're not lazy, just smart. my ex-dentist

only works 3 days a week and if it's a nice day for golf has been known to cancel. and the way he talked to his assistants sounded degrading, even though it wasn't sexual. at least with stripping you can walk away from a person that's trying to pull a power trip.

[bridgit]

131. oh honey, did you ever get lucky on more than one level...

if you are dancing then you have to know. regardless how exotic your beauty may your time on 'the pole' is finite. they are few & rare, but i've known dancers with a plan, dancers with thier own kids & paid condos in 'the city' driving benz & beemers while they're still smart, have their wits about them & forward thinking parlaying their fleeting time into something more long term.

your "i'm lazy" aside, which you did not have to reference for the benefit of anyone here, plays to a greater number of woman i've seen on 'the scene'. still, i hear you
:hi:

[enigmatic]

139. Hey, you're cool w/ me, too

I'd never rag on you for your profession; I salute you. You sound like a great person:)

[Madrone]

140. Good post.

Thanks so much for sharing your story.

[jonnyblitz]

143. thanks for the resources you provided.

I am with you on this but don't really care to get into it with people on here. i have had and still have friends in the sex biz, all aspects, one is right up there in gay porn (best newcomer nominee at 2005 gay video awards in LA tho he didnt win) plus one guy that makes the gay porn in LA, and a few that "escort" here and there and that go go dance or strip on the club circuit. and my best friend and neighbor when i lived in the tenderloin in SF was a street hooker(illegal alien girl from Australia). SO i dont pretend to be (gasp) appalled by all this just for public consumption.

anyways..i want to read those books you mentioned and would be interested in reading other stuff too on the topic. I will bookmark this thread to come back to your post. :hi:

[LynneSin]

142. About 200times smarter then the men they strip for....

...think about it - men are putting money down their g-strings