I believe the reason why women stay with "mean" guys is low self-esteem

[Champ]

I've been working on this theory but I could be wrong, but it has alot to do with my last relationship.

Whenever she referred to her last relationships, she always said the guys were "mean" to her but not once has said I was ever mean to her. Yet, when we broke up she said she "doesn't like me very much anymore" but her last relationship was with a guy in which she said she would do anything to make him happy, love him the best way she knew, etc how but he went to prison(who recently went back to prison with a $1,000,000 bond) during their relationship and she caught him cheating which was the icebreaker but still has a residue of feelings for him - something she doesn't have for me.

I got the feeling she had to be controlled in the relationship. I never tried to do make decisions as far as what direction our relationship headed without her opinion. I don't feel anyone should have more control then other, I think a relationship should be more like a partnership

Here is where I think I made "mistakes"

When we faced our first problem, while discussing it she said "I'd do anything for you" which I wasn't comfortable with, I don't feel like anyone should do "anything" for me. So I tried to make her feel that she didn't have to do anything for me and wasn't comfortable with her doing that, I wanted her to stand up for herself which in most cases she didn't have too. I admitted I was wrong when I was wrong.

She has never apologized for a certain thing she has done, early on I felt like she apologized just because there was a confrontation, argument, discussion whatever you want to call it. I said to her "I don't want you to apologize for anything you feel is justified"

There are many examples but she has slowly became less affectionate towards me and less willing to do things for me. She started to do things and not care over how I reacted so often when I stated the problem and made a very good case for it she said "You're showing some courage, I find it sexy" when being "sexy" was the last thing on my mind. But it made things more clear to me as to what she found attractive. Now I liked the idea of being successful with her, but I HATE the idea of mistreating people, being mean to them, lying and misleading them. So I stayed the same.

Now I never cheated on her, abused her in any way, was completely open and honest, was fair but somehow finished last which made no sense to me.

But I felt it came clear to me, it wasn't necessarily the abusive, mean, negative parts she had strong feelings for. I believe the possessed certain qualities such as unpredictable, uncontrollable, challenging, dominant that made her literally blind to the abuse that would make her rationalize and excuse the abuse.

Again, just a theory. But all this stems from low-esteem in my opinion. Even though she is a wonderful person with great qualities she still felt she wasn't good enough for a decent man so she would go out of her way to do things even if it wasn't in her best interest, felt she had to look "irresitable" for me not to cheat on her, worried that I didn't love her but after lots of re-assuring and when she no longer felt this way is when she cut me loose.

I'm not hurting from this relationship, I did the best job I could and I'm secure with that. I feel like I have alot to offer to someone and I'm willing to wait for someone to appreciate those qualities. It didn't make ANY sense at all at first but I think I've made some sense out of it.

What are your thoughts? I also believe the thoery can both ways as to why "nice" guys will stay with "mean" girls.

on edit: I tried to put "I believe the reason why SOME women..." in the Subject line but it didn't fit so I left it out.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Sounds right to me.

She also just might have such a skewed notion of relationships because that's all she's ever been in. In her mind, sexiness = abuse because that's what she's always had.

[supernova]

2. She's a submissive in search of a dom

is what it sounds like you're saying. Except, she can't admit that and goes for the mean guys instead, because they *appear* to be the domineering type, when really they act out of fear and insecurity.

Hey, if that's not your thing, it's better that you know now.

[Debbi801]

20. Parking myself here...

She does not recognize/understand the difference between a Dominant and someone who is abusive.

This may have absolutely nothing to do with her self-esteem. Many submissive people, not really knowing exactly what it is that they are looking for, gravitate towards abusive people. Unfortunately, that can start damaging self-esteem, but self esteem isn't necessarily damaged to begin with. Does that make sense?

[Champ]

3. kick

:kick:

[SmokingJacket]

4. I think you're probably right, and I think you're way better off now.

I'm a woman, and I was brought up to never, ever allow a man to treat me poorly. That being single is infinitely better than being with an aggressive asshole abuser. My parents certainly made some mistakes in their parenting, but they were right on target with this one.

I'll bet this woman's father was an asshole who made derogatory remarks about her appearance and bossed her mother around.

[Champ]

5. Actually

Her father left the household when she was very young. He is a crackhead according to her.

on edit: He was never really there, her mother had her when she was only 14.

[Dora]

28. That was my first guess

Absent dads are as bad as the abuser dads who never leave. Their daughters romanticize and fantasize about how much better/cooler their absent dads are than their moms (or other guardians).

Word to any fathers in here: Don't ignore your daughters, unless you wan't her to wind up as a creep-seeking pole-dancing self-hater.

[JimmyJazz]

9. My best friend could be the woman he described and my heart

is breaking over it. She left someone who was decent and kind and treated her well to be with some asshole who has physically abused her in the past. My heart is just breaking over it.

But, here's the kicker. Her parents are wonderful people. Her father is kind and gentle and never seems to even raise his voice. Her mother treats her like an adult and they seem to have a great relationship, too. And, she's attractive and popular.

I'm baffled as to why this has happened. I'm pretty sure it's as a result of low self esteem, but I can't figure out why.

[BlueJazz]

6. Yep..I understand..(all too Well) I "Fell" for a Woman once who.....

...kept insisting that I control her more and make sure she "Walks The Line". I found myself not being able to simply "Be Myself".
I had to (try) to play Boss and Asshole all the time.

I finally came to my senses and told her (rather Nastily) that "I wanted a partner and a women who could stand on her own 2 feet and would share in life's ups and down. If I wanted a "Lapdog"...I'd go to a fucking Pet shop".

I never saw her again and Good Riddance!

Those kind of relationships are just to much work and are rather Sick...

[Zuni]

7. ....

:popcorn:

[gmoney]

8. There's an aphorism floating around:

"Any woman who says she wants a sensitive guy DESERVES one." ...meaning that dating a sensitive guy is a form of punishment. I can't attribute this, but it sort of resonates to what you're saying.

Another that fits is the old Faulkner quote: "Between grief and nothing I will take grief." And I think the woman you're talking about (and many others) will make the same choice. The grief and problems and hardships of a "mean" guy is at least exciting and dramatic, compared to the calm (perhaps TOO calm) of dating a "nice" guy. Many women do want their men to be MEN, and be decisive and commanding and "in charge." But it's tough to find a man who can be those things without going TOO far into controlling and aggressive and even abusive. But many women will choose excitement and drama over routine and stability.

Maybe I'm just a zero and a wimp and not worthy of consideration, but as a lifelong "nice guy" who has been treated as disposable or as a doormat more often than I'd like to think about, this is my anecdotal, highly biased take on the phenomenon you mentioned. I'm sure many on this board will disagree, saying "I just want a nice guy" but at the same time, give the real life choice, most will pick the bad guy who offers excitement over the nice guy who offers stability.

I guess it's up to "nice guys" to cowboy up a little bit and be the "mensch" that a good woman deserves.

I was recently steered towards the movie "Swept Away" which dramatizes this dynamic. It's very cheesy in a lot of ways, but now knowing that SOME women identify with the scenario could offer some insight.

"People will always be tempted to wipe their feet on anything with 'Welcome' written on it." -XTC (Andy Partridge)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. It sounds to me as if the OP tried too hard to avoid conflict

I think this is why "nice" guys have trouble with women. There's a difference between being kind, considerate, and generous (good) and groveling, being afraid of conflict, and trying to bribe the woman into loving him (annoying).

A man who doesn't react (not violently, not abusively, but assertively) when he's unhappy comes across as "nice" in the bad sense. Being in a relationship with that kind of guy is like trying to play handball in a tent.

[Champ]

14. I wasn't submissive

What I was describing was a 45 minute conversation in an assertive approach over one question I asked her and being put through all the loopholes she finally gave me an answer "I don't like you very much anymore"

There have been many times I have sensed something was wrong and I'd ask her what is wrong? She wouldn't tell me there isn't much I can do that there. I don't try to force information out of people. I wasn't afraid of conflict, I jumped on every opportunity to make the relationship work but at the same time not put her down, make her feel guilty, etc.

Don't get the bribing part, I did things and never asked for anything in return or expected them.

on edit: Part of the reason why I'm fine with everything is I don't feel like I still have plenty of things to say that I haven't already said.

[Champ]

22. I will admit

I probaly have admitted wrong doing more then I had too simply because she is a master at self-justification.

[Champ]

12. Isn't it that movie with Madonna?

I've heard that movie was awful according to the reviews. I never watched it myself but I may look into it.

[gmoney]

13. It is and it was...

...pretty awful that is. Some really dreadful acting. But it was suggested to me by someone because she felt the situation and the relationship between the two main characters as illustrating a particular truth for her (and presumably a number of other women), and that is what I thought was relevant to the OP.

[bettyellen]

21. the original foreign version is much better

lina wertmuller.

[fudge stripe cookays]

27. I'd check out the original.

A Lina Wertmuller movie from the 70s if you can't handle the Madonna version.

It's called Swept Away...By an Unusual Detiny in the Blue Sea of August.

"The Mediterranean sea is the backdrop for this social drama from director Lina Wertmuller. While vacationing on a yacht, the wealthy capitalist Raffaella (Mariangela Melato) shouts out orders in between spouting off political opinions amongst her friends. She is especially confrontational to the deck hand and servant Gennarino (frequent Wertmuller leading man Giancarlo Giannini), by demanding that he appear more presentable. Gennarino grows increasingly frustrated by her demands and develops contempt for her independence. When it is nearing dark, Raffaella has Gennarino take her out in the dinghy for a swim. The two find themselves stranded after the motor seizes up and a current sends them drifting out to sea. Eventually finding land, they end up on an uninhabited island and their small boat deflates. Removed from the trappings of society, Gennarino and Rafaella engage in a passionate power struggle fueled by sexual tension and basic survival. Their desperation develops into a strange and cruel love affair that determines whether or not they want to be rescued. ~ Andrea LeVasseur, All Movie Guide"

FSC

[bicentennial_baby]

10. I can agree with that

I was in an emotionally and physically abusive relationship for years, and my self-esteem was practically non-existent. I grew up a lot, and i'm a whole different person now. thankfully.

[leftofthedial]

15. based on your description--bad match

she needs to be used emotionally, financially and physically

you apparently can't and don't want to use a woman

find a woman who wants what you have to offer

BTW, do you have her phone number?

[Champ]

17. Yes, vice-versa

Ironically, she called me this morning but I wasn't there to answer the phone. Didn't leave no message either.

[MissMillie]

16. not just low self-esteem

but a society that tells them that they are somehow "less" of a woman if they can't get a man.

[Champ]

18. I think the way society conditions us is what causes the biggest

misunderstandings in relationships.

I could go into great detail but I'll give just one example. A teacher watching over a schoolyard full of children, she sees boys pushing, shoving, playing and immediately they excuse it as "boys will be boys". Now if that same teacher seen a girl pushing, shoving playing like the boys immediately she is labeled a problem child, emotionally disturbed, something is wrong with her, etc.

It all affects as when we grow up.

[MissMillie]

19. Amen!

I've always hated the "boys will be boys" excuse for bad behavior. Bad behavior is bad behavior--no matter who is perpetrating it.

[cheezus]

23. why did you have to bring gender into this?

[Champ]

25. It was relevent to my situation

and you more often then not hear about women with "bad boys" rather then men with "bad girls" I stated below I believe it can go both ways, a man with low self esteem will put up and stay with a toxic woman.

[Pryderi]

24. My own theory is that women sometimes mistake meanness for confidence

I believe women find confidence in a man attractive, but sometimes they get involved with an overconfident asshole and it takes them a while to figure it out.

:shrug:

[bettyellen]

26. some people need to see really strong emotions to be reassured

so they pick fights, create drama, try to set you or themselves up to prove your feelings.
it's just a huge waste of energy, and you feel like you're being provoked for kicks after a while. yeah, i think they're insecure, pretty much. and it's boring.