Boy struck by lightning: Some helped with CPR, others helped with prayer

[RPM]

In the next instant, a lightning strike blasted the pine tree, scattering people like bowling pins, some falling backwards, some flattened, many yelling and at least one -- David -- lying motionless.

The chaotic moments after the strike were recounted yesterday by David's mother, Jennifer Rogan of New Castle, and her cousin, Tammy Coon, at a news conference at Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh, where David, who will be a seventh-grader this fall, remains on a ventilator, in critical condition

Coon, a registered nurse from Franklin, Venango County, recalled "a large ball of light and a huge, huge explosion." She ran to David and began cardiopulmonary resuscitation compression while others, including the boy's grandfather, helped with the breathing.

And in the midst of the terror, many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed.

And folks why I'd rather hang out with athiests and agnostics...
More at: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05200/540110.stm

[spinbaby]

1. Why not pray?

If someone is already resuscitating, praying probably beats running around in a panic.

[RPM]

4. how about calling me a fucking ambulance

rather than calling in a prayer... :eyes:

if the most useful thing one can do in an emergency is pray, he should leave and get the hell out of everyone elses way...

[progmom]

10. it seems fairly certain someone did call an ambulance

[elshiva]

After the ambulance took grandmother away, I prayed.

Prayed with my dad at dinner, too. But remember the ambulance WAS called first!

[Radio_Lady]

45. I wouldn't have prayed, because I don't believe in the power of

personal prayer. The believers do a good job of it on their own, however.

[hippiechick]

2. Helped with Prayer ?

Geez, you'd think those fundies would take a lightning strike as some kind of omen ...


:shrug:

[progmom]

7. where did it say they were fundies?

[hippiechick]

73. whatever

People who prefer to stand around and pray rather than take necessary medical action ... well, you define it.

:eyes:

[progmom]

84. it also didn't say that

the child was given prompt medical attention. it was portions of the other 75 people who were there who didn't have anything to do while waiting for the ambulance who prayed.

i would totally agree that the scenario you described would be idiotic, though. :hi:

[Beware the Beast Man]

144. Stop dissecting the article.

The kid obviously had several people giving him medical attention. Do you honestly think the other 80 people there could have done something? It's not as if they left him there, dying, while in deep prayer. I thought the article was somewhat touching.

[Parche]

125. Lightening prayer

SHOCKING isnt it!!!

[48pan]

204. Lots of people get religion when their life is at stake

or that of a loved one.

Have we become the anti-Christian party? If we have, I think it is a really big mistake. We used to be the party of diversity, both cultural and religious. If we alienate Christians, it leaves a pretty small minority to vote for us.

[progmom]

3. How many of those people would you expect to be administering CPR at once?

If I didn't know CPR, I might have been praying too. I'm not sure I understand what is wrong with that. :shrug:

[RPM]

9. calling an ambulence would be a good start

i'd just rather have people around me who would take direct measures rather than praying for a god who seems hopelessly aloof, if even existing at all, to do something.

[tjdee]

12. There was a registered nurse doing the CPR, LOL.

I'm sure of the 80 or whatever people there, someone called an ambulance, or else how did he end up in the hospital?

It may have been unsafe to take him to the hospital (I don't know, but with certain injuries aren't people advised not to move the victim?).

[RPM]

13. well fine - next time lightning strikes someone i will have a beer

just as helpful as praying :eyes:

[tjdee]

18. But seriously. What else should they have been doing?

Was the guy being given CPR? Yes. By a qualified professional too, not some person who wanted to be a hero.

Was an ambulance on the way? Probably.

So....some started to pray--which again, they felt was helping somehow (if it was only helping them cope). Having a beer, not so much helping. But, then, if it's helping you feel better so that you don't flip out and require people to help *you*, then that's great too. What else would you do?

[northzax]

117. exactly, it's like the players at a football game

when someone gets hurt, and is getting medical attention, some players pray (doesn't everyone who believes in anything whisper a word to the deity of their choice?)

I love the idea of 80 people simultaneously giving CPR.

[RPM]

131. i love the idea of 27 people being injured and the rest doing nothing

except praying :eyes:

[northzax]

137. er, ok...

when did this happen again?

[RPM]

143. read the whole article

somethign like 27 persons were hurt.

I am sure each could have found some way to provide physical aid or comfort to the 26 others.

[ashling]

108. so you are saying

that the scenario would have been more acceptable to you if the other 75 0r 80 people had been drinking beer instead of praying?

[RPM]

111. based on the logic "if that's what helped them deal with it"

if that is the test - yes i would have a beer, it would help me deal better with teh other persons injury.

of course, i would do something useful like treat soem of the other 20-odd injured, help direct ambulances to the scene, make icepacks for the injured, find bandages.... anything that would have a concrete benificial use TO THE INJURED.

if one is going to be as useful as to pray rahther than help the others, then fine - have a beer: at least you will be out of the way :eyes:

[JVS]

115. That would rock!

[RPM]

118. glad to see you have joined in on this party

you are referenced below...

[progmom]

16. people were doing something

since he ended up at the hospital, you have to assume someone did call an ambulance. once you've done that, and there are people administering CPR, what else is there to do? i'm not trying to pick a fight, i just don't think i understand how this is a bad thing.

[Shell Beau]

5. What is the big deal? What is wrong with them praying if

they feel it helps them?

[eyesroll]

6. What's wrong with what happened?

It's not like 80 people could be administering CPR or calling 911 or doing much else. There were, it seems, enough people doing that already. Praying might have kept them relatively calm and out of the way.

(I'm not big on the headline, but I don't see where the offense was in what happened.)

[tjdee]

8. Um, the registered nurse was doing CPR....should they have been crowding

her?

I'm not sure what's wrong with praying if a) you think it'll help, and b)the obvious course of action has been attempted.

:shrug:

[WeRQ4U]

11. I honestly don't see anything wrong with this.

The already had the appropriate life saving measures in place, and so long as someone had already called the EMT's, what harm could it do?

What, should they all count in unison during chest compressions?

[trotsky]

14. "Coon said he believes the family's continued faith in God...

will make the difference in David's recovery."

That, folks, is your non-falsifiable religious belief in action. If the boy makes a full recovery, it's a miracle from God. (Never mind the extraordinary SCIENTIFIC steps that have been taken to help.) If he makes a partial recovery, well, God kept him from dying. And if he dies, well, it was God's will.

I don't want to take away their source of comfort, but it seems to me God could have made things a lot easier if he had just directed that lightning bolt to a different tree.

[jobycom]

15. As good a response as any

I can't imagine that standing around a family trying to revive a child could be very much fun. The prayers helped the prayers more than the kid.

My only issue is that they are thanking the wrong entities, if they believe that the prayer brought the kid back from the dead. They should be thanking those who worked on the kid.

Hope he makes it.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. If I ever get hit my lightning...

PUT DOWN YOUR FRICKIN' BIBLES AND HELP ME!!!

[Shell Beau]

24. How many people would you like to jump on you?

These people did nothing wrong. Someone was already helping the poor kid.

[RPM]

28. depends on if they are hot

if so, the more the better.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

114. All of them...

And somebody can call the ambulance. And some else can call my lawyer (somebody's gonna pay for this). And somebody else can call my agent (gotta be a book deal in there somewhere).

Your point is well taken.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

19. Kept from having too many cooks in the kitchen

If it makes people feel better, why not?

[Modem Butterfly]

42. It could have gotten more of them killed

After all, they were in a wooded area during a lightning storm...

[Shell Beau]

46. Blame it on stupidity or nervousness or bad

decisions, but no need to put the blame on prayer.

[Modem Butterfly]

57. They were at least ignorant (if not stupid) and they did panic

And certainly prayer is what they resorted to in that situation.

People, please: In an electrical storm, get away from trees and powerlines and get to shelter as quickly and safely as possible. Stay low and if you can't get to shelter, get to the nearest ditch.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

153. The article doesn't really mention the specifics of the terrain

except that it was on a farm. In all fairness, if it was an open field and there was not shelter in the immediate vicinity, it was probably wise for them to get on their knees and pray (preferably scrunched up as possible).

[LaurenG]

20. Studies have shown that prayer

and or thinking healing thoughts do help.

[trotsky]

21. No, they have not.

Sorry.

[RPM]

22. and studies have also show it doesnt help

... so - the studies are inconclusive and pretty much useless.

[Shell Beau]

25. Why does it bother you? Seriously.

I would have done the same. The kid was getting helped. How many people actually need to call 911? Pick and choose your battles, but this is no biggie.

[RPM]

27. i dont like people doing dumb shit on my account

and i consider prayer utterly stupid.

On edit: that is, of course, if i jad been struck and they were praying for me. Even if not for me, it seems like a stupid response to me.

[Shell Beau]

29. Well that is you, but several million (maybe billion) people don't.

And I don't see any reason why you would have a problem with other people doing what makes them feel better. It really doesn't affect you. What if I said that I think people not praying is utterly stupid?

[RPM]

30. fine - you just said it

that's nice for you - i do think that praying you will pass a test is a far inferior method to actullly studying, though; same goes for medical treatment - i'll take a doc, you can have a prayer circle :)

[Shell Beau]

31. The kid was getting medical treatment from a registered nurse.

They weren't ONLY using prayer.

On edit: I find that praying to pass a test w/o studying is abuse of prayer. I don't believe that is how prayer works.

[RPM]

34. look - i'm sick of the dumb fucks who DO use only prayer

the world is a fucked up place - largely on their account.

[Shell Beau]

38. Okay! That is fine if you believe that. But don't

put down people for praying. I do it every day. I don't abuse it such as praying for the lottery or to pass a damn test. Most people I know don't pray like that. But it is something that is special to me and just b/c you don't agree with it doesn't mean you have to call it stupid.

[progmom]

33. can i take a doc and a prayer circle for a thousand, alex?

:hi:

[LaurenG]

35. How about if people just send you love and keep god out of it?

Is that disturbing to you? I do hands on healing. I don't care if people pray or believe in god. I know that a loving thought or gesture is much more healing than nothing. I know that we all need love and I wouldn't force anything on anyone. Just a happy thought. I know how destructive religion is so I would never bring it up in a session. I am however very open to the possiblity that anything is possible. Does that clarify why I said prayer or good thoughts.

[Modem Butterfly]

50. It could cause a panic as well

We had an employee accident here a couple of years ago. The employee had fallen from a good height and had a severe arm fracture as well as a broken nose and concussion. He was in shock, but panic set in when he saw his co-workers gathered in prayer on his account. He said he knew it must be bad for them to pray over him like that.

[enigmatic]

65. Oh please

What would they have had them all do; wail like banshees?

Good God; family praying for another family member as they were being worked on and w/ an abulance on the way; big fucking deal. This is beyond ridiculous..

[Modem Butterfly]

70. There were a number of other injuries as well

Bell was on the ground nearby. The blast burned her necklace into her skin, imprinting it like a tattoo. She looked purple and gray, but was conscious. The man with his leg on the four-wheeler had his work boot blown off. Both his legs felt paralyzed.

I wonder if these folks even received first aid?

In the case of our employees, we had called 911 and we moved them far away from the employee. Would you believe that with the guy's bone sticking out of his skin and him being half-conscious someone wanted to do "laying on of hands"?

[RPM]

76. i sure they got a honorable mention in a prayer

:hide:

[Shell Beau]

82. It is funny how intolerance is on both sides here.

Fanatics and their exact opposites. Such different beliefs, yet quite the same in the way they put people down for their beliefs or lack thereof.

[JVS]

119. I'm going to have beer during your bar exam to help you out!

If there are any other times that you need some help from a divine source, let me know so I can drink beer and help you out. :beer:

[RPM]

120. i appreciate it

it gives me good feelings that someone is enjoying themselves during this hellish time.

[JVS]

122. Hey, just because I'm drinking beer doesn't mean I like it.

Maybe I'd rather be doing something else, but you're important enough to me that I can make the sacrifice and drink the beer for you.

[swag]

23. Almost all of those studies have been thoroughly debunked.

example:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-09/miracle-study.html

[LaurenG]

26. Ok so some studies have show it helps and others say they don't

If I think loving thoughts toward you it will not hurt. Hows that. :)

[Felix Mala]

52. Try this... flip a coin 100 hundred times and wish for tails REALLY

REALLY REALLY HARD on every flip. Chances are you'll be surprised how often tails comes up.

[LaurenG]

56. Well you know the old saying, "form follows thought" nt

[WeRQ4U]

32. Why does this seem like just a poor excuse to grill the religious.

Yes, they often do questionable things, but this is searching. It would be different if nobody stopped to help and they all chanted prayer while the kid slowly died, don't you think?

[RPM]

36. they do that every day

and no one seems to notice.

[WeRQ4U]

64. Do what?

[RPM]

80. pray for people then actively pursue policies that kill those they...

prayed for.

Its called the Republican Party. THey are famous for that.

[WeRQ4U]

86. But you'r raggin on a group of people who's prayer does not effect anyone.

Besides, you're grouping all the religious into the Republican Party. That's bs.

[enigmatic]

37. I'm a Buddhist

But if somebody wants to pray for me while a nurse is working on bringing me back to life and an ambulance is on the way, the last thing I'd be thinking about is mocking them.

[Shell Beau]

39. I absolutely agree. At least you know they care.

They certainly don't mean any harm.

[GreenPartyVoter]

147. I agree

[Modem Butterfly]

40. Hands that help are better than lips that pray

Robert Ingersoll said that, and it's as true today as it was when he said it.

I can't believe several adults, in a severe lightning strike situation, couldn't think of anything useful to do.

[RPM]

43. I can believe it - they put themselves in harms way to start with

not showing me much on that front.

[Shell Beau]

49. Some people (like me) find praying useful. Thank you very much.

[Modem Butterfly]

58. Well if you're going to pray, fine

But for crying out loud, try not to pray in the middle of a wooded area during a lightning storm, 'kay?

:)

[Shell Beau]

62. I usually don't, but seriously this is offensive to people that

pray and find prayer helpful.

[Modem Butterfly]

77. With all due respect, and I know this doesn't apply to you

If someone finds it offensive to be told that they should resolve an emergency situation prior to having a group prayer, well, I can't help that. There's a time and a place for everything, even prayer.

[Shell Beau]

79. But it seems to me that is what they did.

Registered nurse giving CPR. Obviously ambulance was called. What is the big deal?

[Modem Butterfly]

81. I'm not the original poster, but there were a number of severe injuries

Bell was on the ground nearby. The blast burned her necklace into her skin, imprinting it like a tattoo. She looked purple and gray, but was conscious. The man with his leg on the four-wheeler had his work boot blown off. Both his legs felt paralyzed.

[Shell Beau]

94. Well I am sure it wouldn't have happened if she wasn't praying.

(That was meant to be SARCASTIC) Whatever I am through over here. The OP already said he thought prayer was utterly stupid and some other mumbo jumbo. This thread was started IMO to piss on prayer. But I realized intolerance goes both ways and what is the point.

[Modem Butterfly]

96. That's a really shitty thing to say

Who knows what she was doing when she was hit by lightning? None of those 27 other people who were hit by lightning were asking for it, none of them deserved their injuries. Nature kind of gets everyone equally. But people can and should help each other physically in an emergency situation before seeking to help each in non-material ways. As I said in a post below, I don't mind if you pray for another person, but please help me stop the bleeding first.

[Shell Beau]

101. What did I say that was shitty?

The intolerance thing? The sarcastic remark about not happening if she wasn't praying?

[Modem Butterfly]

107. Pretty much that whole post

[Shell Beau]

109. Well the truth hurts.

[BeTheChange]

93. At that moment, the lightening storm didnt matter..

One of their family members was laying on the ground, getting CPR. Can you say what you would have done? If the child was getting cpr, the ambulance had been called and everyone else was accounted for, I too would have been praying... hands raised to the sky, knees on the ground. Fervently. No doubt very unsavory to many on this site.

The article says:

The lightning strike was part of an air mass of thunderstorms that moved through Venango County late Saturday afternoon. The reunion typically begins there on a Friday and runs until the last person leaves Sunday. Now in its 10th year, family members spend the weekend with nearby relatives or in tents around the farm.

"There was no storm" that would have alerted them to coming problems, Rogan said. "It was just raining and then all of a sudden it was tragedy."


There was nothing that let them know it was coming. It isnt as if they were just idiots screwing around in a lightening storm. A bad thing happened and they forgot about everything but doing the best they knew how to give any energy that they could to help that child.

[Modem Butterfly]

123. Actually, there were 27 of their family members lying on the ground

[BeTheChange]

145. Where does it say they were lying on the ground? It does not say that.

It says that 27 people were treated at hospitals and indicates 3 serious injuries.

Where does it say that they didnt help any of the others? Where does it say that they didnt call an ambulance and relied soley on prayer?

Why are people who were not there and have no idea what happened other then the words of an article.. taking those same words out of context and assuming the worst because some of the people felt the need to pray? I dont understand.

[Modem Butterfly]

162. Well, I'm sure the emergency responders didn't leave them there

But that doesn't excuse the folks who didn't administer first aid when they were at the scene, does it?

[LastKnight]

41. i dont see why its a big deal.

People were helping the kid out, ambulance was (apparently) on the way. he wound up in a hospital so its easy to assume. only takes a few people to do these things. if the rest of the people want to spend the time in prayer, let them. it may be more beneficial to those praying rather than to the kid on the ground. whatever... Different strokes...

it isnt gonna hurt anyone at any rate, unless they were gonna put him on an altar and sacrafice him or something, which somehow, i doubt.

i tend to lean to the agnostic side of things, by the way.

[LaurenG]

44. Too funny, I agree

"it isnt gonna hurt anyone at any rate, unless they were gonna put him on an altar and sacrafice him or something"

Besides it gave them something to do, something to help them feel like they were helping.

[LastKnight]

48. and at the very least, it kept them out of the way

of the ones that were trying to get him breathing again... rather than them possibly crowding around tryin to get a look.

[LaurenG]

51. Yep. nt

[RPM]

55. ahhhh - "keeping out of the way"

my alcoholic father's excuse for why he was never helping us with whatever we were working on.

ahhhh - memories

[LastKnight]

thats a strech.

but good try trying to equate the two.

the kid got help. he got to the hospital. i think as long as those things are taken care of it is pointless to even look at what the auxillary crowd was doing, as long as they were staying out of the way and not hindering the efforts to save him.

[RPM]

63. and i grew up and lived happily after after!!!

:hi:

[LastKnight]

68. glad to hear it.

id pray for ya, but that would make ya angry... so i wont. :sarcasm:

[LaurenG]

61. Hey thats a sad thing you just said

I'm sorry, really sorry about that.

[RPM]

66. hey - i have a sense of humor

i laugh about it now - the old man is sad and broken and no longer the tyrant he once was. I love him anyway and don't hold a grudge.

but i laugh like hell evertime someone uses that phrase. :)

thanks for your thoughts.

[LaurenG]

71. My father in law was like that

mean though and really mean to his kids and grandkids. it brings back the "good" old days for me too. Ahh well. We do go on. :hi:

[progmom]

67. ...

:hug:

[RPM]

69. thx - see #66 above

its all good - I didnt even need therapy to help...

:hi:

On edit: send one of those hugs to JVS - he is my little brother :)

[progmom]

72. JVS is your little bro?

i had no idea.

how did i miss this important information?

[RPM]

74. he doesnt mention it much

we had a little falling out over Quebec ;) j/k

he turned me on to DU in early 2003. he's a good kid.

[JVS]

132. I didn't want to cramp your style or give you my old enemies.

[Felix Mala]

47. Except, God sent the lightning, then you pray to God for him

to save the kid he just struck with lightening... Was this just an exercise to see if everyone's keeping awake down here? LOL, good one God, you really had us goin'... You're OK... uh... as long as the kid makes it, I guess...

Do the folks at the prayer switchboard know to transfer calls to 911?



The right says they believe in God and liberals believe Santa Claus.

I think liberals believe in Jesus and the right believes Jesus is Santa Claus.

[Taverner]

53. I dunno - as long as they were doing CPR

Can't hurt....

Besides, have you ever seen 80 people try to do CPR at once?

[texas1928]

54. Oh BOY

:popcorn:

[Shell Beau]

59. No shit! Watch out b/c this pisses me off that someone would

get pissed off that someone is praying. Whew! Did you get that?

[texas1928]

Can you say that three times fast?

Well can you.

[Shell Beau]

85. Never. Maybe if I prayed hard enough.

[texas1928]

88. Well I don't know if I want to hug you.

you might hurt me.

:yoiks:

[Shell Beau]

90. Come to think of it, I am pretty strong and when

I am mad.... Just teasing.

[texas1928]

92. Oh

:scared:

:yoiks:

:hide:

[Shell Beau]

112. Don't be scared!

:hug: and I need one of these :beer:

[RPM]

60. how bout it, eh?

where you weighing in on this - or you just gonna sit there getting the greasy popcorn butter all over your hand? ;)

[texas1928]

75. I going to sit here and watch it burn.

I am not getting in this one.

[ghostsofgiants]

78. Let me get this straight...

He was already recieving medical attention. Presumably, and ambulance was called, since he did make it to a hospital. So there was really nothing left to be done by the others. Some of the others decide "hey, maybe prayer might be a good idea!" and proceed to pray.

These people are doing nothing to hinder the boy's medical attention or harm him in any way, yet, you feel the need to be angry at them for it? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me.

If the prayer isn't preventing him from recieving CPR or harming him in any way, what does it matter if they were praying or not? Like you said, they could have just cracked a beer; they could have just stood there scratching their asses. Either way it was completely passive activity when the only thing they COULD do was be passive.

If nobody was helping the boy, I could understand being upset about it, but in this situation, it's really just a blatant excuse to start a flamewar.

(By the way, I'm agnostic and if I'm hurt and someone is already helping me, feel free to pray all you want.)

[Modem Butterfly]

83. There were a number of severe injuries other than this boy

[ghostsofgiants]

87. Well that's a little different

In that case, they should have definitely done what they could to actually try and help the others.

[BikeWriter]

89. I'm an atheist. Who cares if people prayed...

as long as qualified people were taking steps to save his life?

[Modem Butterfly]

91. I imagine the 27 other people who were also injured

I have no problem if someone prays over another. But do you mind helping me stop the bleeding first?

[Shell Beau]

95. I know I said I was through, but my thread was locked.

How do you know what actually happened there?

[Modem Butterfly]

97. I read the article.

[Shell Beau]

98. As did I.

[Modem Butterfly]

100. Before, or after you posted?

[Shell Beau]

102. I read first.

I skimmed it, not read.

[Modem Butterfly]

104. Wow. Then you must have missed this:

Nine ambulance, fire, paramedic and police units from around the county arrived. Twenty-seven people were treated at various hospitals and three, including David and Bell, were flown to Pittsburgh by air ambulance. Bell and the third person, Sarah Cochran of Franklin, were treated and released from Mercy Hospital.

Yikes.

[Shell Beau]

105. Nope I didn't miss that at all.

[supernova]

103. The article doesn't say

the others weren't taken care of.

Everybody got what they needed.

[Modem Butterfly]

106. There were 80 people gathered, 27 went to the hospital

One was treated on scene by a nurse. The article says that many of the rest simply prayed.

[supernova]

110. And you're inferring something that isn't there

from the article:

"Nine ambulance, fire, paramedic and police units from around the county arrived. Twenty-seven people were treated at various hospitals and three, including David and Bell, were flown to Pittsburgh by air ambulance. Bell and the third person, Sarah Cochran of Franklin, were treated and released from Mercy Hospital."

There are better arguments to be made about the intrusion of religion into public life. This isn't one of them.

[Shell Beau]

113. I agree. That is why I said pick your battles.

I can see why people would get offended if others are shoving religion or prayer down their throat. But this is not one of those cases.

[Modem Butterfly]

124. This isn't an argument about the intrusion of religion into public life

After all, we're talking about private life here, and the folks who chose to pray chose to pray of their own free-will. The other 27 people probably weren't even conscious enough to register that someone was praying.

[Shell Beau]

127. But it got personal. When someone said

dumb fucks who pray when prayer is utterly stupid

[Modem Butterfly]

129. With all due respect, if 27 people are lying injured on the ground

And there is an electrical storm overhead, anything other than preserving life and limb of the injured and yourself is utterly stupid. Playing frisbee, drinking beer, praying, cleaning graffitti, folding up the American flag...

[Shell Beau]

133. I agree, but that is what I thought they did. You don't think they

did. We disagree there. That is fine. Agree to Disagree.

[BikeWriter]

158. I'd have been doing CPR to whoever I could. My point is...

Someone with no CPR training praying would not have bothered me, unless I snatched them up and instructed them to breathe for someone and they refused. I haven't heard this happened in this case.

[Book Lover]

99. Reminds me of something Breslin once wrote about

He was in Italy a few years ago and while on a bus, a fellow passenger collapsed. He and the other folks quickly conferred what to do, and Breslin asked, "Shouldn't we call a priest?" One of the guys looked at him and said, "What? If you call a priest, he'll die."

As for the topic at hand, I sure hope *some* of the other 80 folks were checking to make sure everyone and everything else was ok before they dropped to their knees.

[Kraklen]

116. Why pray?

If God didn't want to strike him with lightning He wouldn't have done it in the first place.

[Shell Beau]

121. ? If you don't do it then it must be wrong.

Whatever! There is no point in this. It is ridiculous. I pray and if it offends you so be it. Get thicker skin.

[Kraklen]

126. Alright.

I'll have gray whale steak and dedicate it to you.

[Shell Beau]

128. Go ahead! And I hope you feel good about it. Oh I am sorry, that

was probably a racist comment.

[Kraklen]

130. I'll send you some scrimshaw.

You can put it on your mantle.

[Shell Beau]

134. Grow up

[Kraklen]

135. If I scraw shim for you, and it offends you, so be it.

Get thicker skin.

:P

[Shell Beau]

140. Yada yada yada

[Kraklen]

141. I know.

It sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it?

[Shell Beau]

142. Yeah! It is. Truce!

[RPM]

136. whats scrimshaw?

is that like scrapple?

[Kraklen]

138. Nope.

It's the art of carving on whalebone. Practiced by 19th century whalers.

[RPM]

139. whew - wouldnt want to eat that

i dont think it would pass

[trotsky]

146. Wouldn't that apply to you, too?

If someone says that prayer is bunk and it offends you, shouldn't you get thicker skin?

[RPM]

157. please - why would you make such a ...

reasonable post....

:evilgrin:

[Shell Beau]

161. No, this is totally different. I am not calling out

those who don't pray and calling it stupid not to. That is basically what is happening here. I find it amazing how people call out religious fanatics for being so intolerant, yet on the other end of the spectrum there is intolerance as well, just of the opposite kind.

[trotsky]

165. I don't see it as "totally different" at all.

Your post that I responded to basically said that if something offends you, get a thicker skin. You didn't put any qualifications on it. Does someone calling prayer "stupid" cause you harm? Does it call someone who PRAYS, stupid? No, it does not.

I think smoking is stupid. Does that make me intolerant of smokers?

[Shell Beau]

168. I can see you don't understand what I am saying

and that is fine. I bet if I started a thread about how ridiculous it was for atheist not to pray, I may get a different response. This thread was started to put down prayer and I don't see a point in starting a thread to put down something that several DUers do. That is the difference. I don't personally care what you think about prayer or anything else for that matter. My skin is plenty thick.

[trotsky]

170. You claim you don't personally care,

yet you persist in calling those who disagree with you intolerant.

What did you think about my question? If I say that smoking is stupid, does that make me intolerant of smokers? Does it automatically mean I think smokers are stupid?

[Shell Beau]

172. I was specifically referring to the person

who said praying was utterly stupid. So your question about smokers doesn't apply here. I am persistent in this b/c I don't see why people feel the need to call out ANYONE or mock those who pray.

[RPM]

175. well - it started as a little joke as to why...

i would rather be at a picnic with athiests & agnostics; but since you didnt get the joke and were so bothered by it, i just thought "no, you know what, i think prayer is stupid and useless"

:hi:

[Modem Butterfly]

179. In that situation, I would agree with you

Pray all you want, but first make sure everyone who needs first aid has received it.

[trotsky]

176. It most certainly does apply.

You're claiming that someone who says "praying is utterly stupid" is intolerant of those who pray, and/or thinks those who pray are stupid.

I'm trying to see if you also follow that logic in other areas, or if you're just being a hypocrite.

[Shell Beau]

177. It is pointless. I obviously cannot get my point

across here. I see what you are trying to say, but you don't get what I am saying. You shouldn't start a thread mocking something that many people find important.

[trotsky]

181. I get what you're trying to say, too.

I'm just asking you how expressing an opinion that a certain act is stupid necessarily means you think those who perform the act are stupid, or that you're intolerant of those who do.

[Modem Butterfly]

182. I think the issue may be that prayer itself wasn't treated with respect

A lot of theists expect that their religious practices will be treated with a greater degree of respect than others might realize.

[Shell Beau]

186. That is not the issue at all.

I don't start threads claiming that athiests have stupid practices. Stop trying to make this into something that it isn't.

[Modem Butterfly]

189. You go first

I don't start threads claiming that athiests have stupid practices.

That's a non-sequitor. No one started a thread claiming that anyone had stupid practices.

[Shell Beau]

190. Is that not what this thread implied?

[Modem Butterfly]

191. No, it isn't

The problem with implications is that they are open to interpretation. Howard Dean could say, "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain" and you and I might say that Howard is warming up for a speech. Fox News, however, can say that Dean was implying the global warming issue has changed the weather patterns in Europe.

If you're not sure what someone meant, you should ask them.

[Shell Beau]

193. Well let's see, the OP said prayer was stupid, so therefore,

it seems maybe my implication rings a little true.

[Modem Butterfly]

194. Only if you want to see it

Just like Fox News and Dean's comment on global warming affecting weather in Europe.

You seem to be awfully emotionally invested in the idea that someone is putting down people who pray. What's up with that?

[Shell Beau]

196. You seem to be very argumentative against it.

I find prayer an emotional thing. I don't mind if others don't. But I don't think mocking those that pray is right. You can say that is not the case, but several others here obviously didn't see the point in this thread being posted. We obviously do not and will not see eye to eye on this.

[Modem Butterfly]

198. Against what?

I find prayer an emotional thing. I don't mind if others don't.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

But I don't think mocking those that pray is right.

I also agree, but that's simply not the case in this thread. I think it's remarkable that this thread has stood for nearly 200 posts so far, and has not been locked, deleted, or moved. If the mods agreed that this thread was mocking people that pray, it would have never been allowed to get this far.

[Shell Beau]

Okay. We don't see eye to eye on this.

I felt strongly enough about this that I didn't want to back down off of it, but we are talking in circles here.

[Shell Beau]

183. I am saying that the OP

obviously has a problem with praying or else this whole thread wouldn't have been started. I don't see why it would bother someone that others find it useful to pray. And so much so that they had to start a thread about it. And then to call it stupid. If someone was shoving prayer down your throat, that is one thing. But that wasn't the case here.

[RPM]

184. thank you for shrinking my head - i'm glad you know all about me!

i dont have a aproblem with praying, per se, i have a problem with people dropping to their knees to pray for heavenly intervention when there is still alot they can do themselves here on earth.

If there is a god - i beleilve in the old line "God helps those who help themselves"; If there isnt a god - then it should read "God only helps those who help themseleves"

[Shell Beau]

188. I was just saying what you already said.

[Modem Butterfly]

199. Did he say it, or is it just something you think was implied?

[Shell Beau]

200. Yeah, I was talking to him. And yes he said it.

[Modem Butterfly]

201. Where?

Citation, please.

[Shell Beau]

203. I am sure you will say something just so you can disagree with me.

But, whatever.

This one was edited to add remark.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3679082&mesg_id=3679289

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3679082

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3679082

[Modem Butterfly]

205. Only the first one is even close to what you said

But your original post was primarily about what you thought he meant, not about what he said. So partial credit.

[Shell Beau]

206. I didn't mean to use the OP. I messed up while doing it.

It was another similar to the first.

[trotsky]

185. So, just to make it patently clear:

You're not interested in answering my question, correct?

People start threads on DU all the time calling certain actions stupid, even though some DUers might engage in them. If you are arguing that the act of praying deserves MORE respect than anything else, then just admit that.

[Shell Beau]

187. Well you and I both know that comparing

smoking cigarettes (known to be unhealthy) and praying are two totally different things. And if you don't see that, then there is really no point is us debating here, b/c we are 2 different pages. I am not saying you don't have a right to think praying is stupid, but to put down those that do pray, well, to me it is just wrong.

[trotsky]

195. Well, there is absolutely no proof that prayer does anything

other than ease the conscience of the one doing the praying.

If someone who is praying could be more helpful by doing something OTHER than praying, then it could be said the prayer is harmful. Now granted, the original article is not clear about this and assuming either way is unwarranted. Considering the original post was intended as a humorous jab, it's silly how far this has gotten.

But I'm concerned you still don't understand what I'm saying. You say:

to put down those that do pray, well, to me it is just wrong.

See, that's exactly what I'm asking. When someone says that a certain act is stupid, does it AUTOMATICALLY mean they are bashing (or "putting down") someone who performs the act? Or does that only apply to prayer?

[Shell Beau]

197. I felt as though that is what happened here. I am

not saying that is always the case. In this particular instance, that is what I got out of it. So the answer to your question is it depends on the situation and how it came about.

[Modem Butterfly]

192. Well that's certainly what her post implied

:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

178. Hey! I used to smoke when I was a kid!

Sure I don't do it anymore, but that doesn't mean that you can get away with putting all of us down, and to prove it, I'm going to start a thread putting you down, you intolerant idiotic fuckass!

:evilgrin:

[trotsky]

180. LMAO

All my life I have waited for someone to call me a fuckass. *sniff* Thank you, MB. I never knew you cared so much. :)

[Modem Butterfly]

166. You started a thread on this IIRC

It got locked as a continuation of a flame war.

[Shell Beau]

169. It certainly did. I started that thread b/c I was

angry and shocked by the hypocrisy I've seen. It is amazing how intolerance goes both ways.

[Modem Butterfly]

171. You don't suppose this thread was started in that same spirit?

After all, 27 struck by lightning and ~50 people on their knees praying is pretty shocking. Pun FULLY intended, btw.

[Shell Beau]

173. Okay. Funny ha ha!

[LanternWaste]

148. I think if eighty-two people all attempted fist aid...

I think if eighty-two people all attempted fist aid on the kid at that instant, not too much would have been accomplished...

[RPM]

155. i think if 80 some people couldnt provide physical aid and comfort to 27..

.. injured persons - they arent trying very hard...

:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

160. Well, 27 of them were injured and one was administering CPR

Plus, I'm sure the boy's parents, assuming they were uninjured, would have been too distraught to be of much use, so we're actually talking 50 people to aid 27. That's less than 2 healthy people per injured person...

[AntiCoup2K4]

149. Why do rabid anti-theists start threads like this?

....Does your irrational hatred of God justify you mocking what some other people did to comfort themselves. Something which certainly didn't harm anybody, and just might have helped, assuming that big guy upstairs whom you loathe so much might actually exist.

Hey, if I'm lying somewhere injured, as long as there's people taking care of the CPR and the First Aid and calling the ambulance, the rest of the crowd can call in God, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Santa Claus, Elvis, or whomever they feel is appropriate. In those circumstances I ain't about to question it.

[RPM]

154. since you ask, i guess i am a "rabid anti-theist"

the reason i start a thread like this is to hope that whenever I go to a picnic, i hope that there is at least one person there who actually believes that science is greater than this Sky-god whom so many seem to place their reliance upon.

:hi:
thanks for asking!

on edit: double thanks for your tolerance, i hope you now understand why i have very little left...

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

221. I think the thing people are getting angered at about your thread...

Is that there were people putting science above god in this case. Like the nurse who was doing CPR and the other people helping in that way. So if people want to pray, and the kid's already getting medical help, why the fuck is it a big deal?

[Modem Butterfly]

223. IMO, the 27 other injured people

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

225. They got help too

nt

[Modem Butterfly]

226. Eventually

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

228. Not everyone knows CPR/medical procedures

The people who did... did what they could. Ambulances were called for the people who needed them.

Again, I don't see the big deal about these people praying, considering those who needed help were getting it.

[Modem Butterfly]

229. I guess you didn't read the article

Most of the 50+ uninjured folks dropped to their knees and prayed.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

230. Um, actually I did.

As you say "most of 50+"...

Most doesn't mean "all" in case you didn't understand that part. Meaning there were people who didn't drop to their knees, who were able to help those injured. I guess YOU didn't read the article. :eyes:

ON EDIT: In case you didn't see this part: "Nine ambulance, fire, paramedic and police units from around the county arrived. Twenty-seven people were treated at various hospitals and three, including David and Bell, were flown to Pittsburgh by air ambulance. Bell and the third person, Sarah Cochran of Franklin, were treated and released from Mercy Hospital."

Sounds like they had a great deal of help.

[Shell Beau]

231. I certainly appreciate you for trying too, but

I finally concluded that is was pointless. If you go through the posts and read mine and the responses, you'll see exactly what I mean. ;)

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

234. I see.

I don't bust on atheists and agnostics, and support their beliefs, but while not a full fledged Christian, I believe in some sort of a spirtual world and prayer. I don't understand why people who are anti-religion have to come down so hard on people who do practice. And vice versa. Can't we all just accept each other's religious/spiritual differences for what they are? It's really disheartening to see the obvious hatred coming from this thread, towards those who do believe in a higher power.

[Modem Butterfly]

237. If you see obvious hatred, you should alert the mods

That sort of thing isn't allowed on DU.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

240. It's masked hatred

Hard to alert on, but very transparent.

[Modem Butterfly]

242. If it's so very transparent, why can't others see it?

Perhaps you're seeing something that isn't really there.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

246. Others are seeing it

If you read the responses in this thread, there are people just as confused as to why the prayer thing is such a big deal as I am.

[Modem Butterfly]

249. I'm confused as well, since that's not the point of the thread

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

250. Really?

What IS the point of the thread? Please enlighten me.

[Modem Butterfly]

251. Organized and deliberate human inaction in an emergency

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

253. Inaction?

Tell that to the nurse who helped that boy, to those helping the injured, to the people who called the emergency crews, police, firefighters, etc. To those who responded to the call. And yes, to those who prayed for a safe outcome in the situation.

Doesn't sound like inaction to me. Seems like everyone did their part.

[Modem Butterfly]

256. See, the problem is with the final group

27 people injured. 50 people uninjured. Lots to do, and little time to do it in. There's a time and a place for everything, even prayer, and the middle of a mass casualty situation isn't it. As the nurse, the emergency crews, the police, and the firefighters will tell you.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

262. NOBODY SAID THEY WERE NOT BEING HELPED

THE ARTICLE SAID NOTHING ABOUT THAT. You tell me to read, I'm telling YOU to read.

THE ARTICLE NEVER EVEN MENTIONED IF THOSE PEOPLE GOT FIRST AID HELP OR NOT. YOU'RE ASSUMING THEY DID NOT.

[Modem Butterfly]

286. "many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed."

Again, I say it's difficult to administer first aid while on your knees.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

292. Wow, you are totally not reading my posts.

I said those who were not praying were helping. Please get it through to your brain somehow that there were people WHO WERE NOT PRAYING who could have helped (and most likely were helping) the injured.

[Modem Butterfly]

295. Once again, the actions of those who weren't praying...

...do not excuse the inactions of those who were

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

300. Therein lies the problem with this entire argument.

You do not believe their actions helped the situation. They did believe their actions were helping. They were not actively thinking "Let's not do anything at all for these injured people!". Quite the contrary, I believe they probably thought they were doing some good by praying.

I think prayer qualifies as an action. You don't.

[Modem Butterfly]

306. Once again, saving the life should come before saving the soul

I think it's sad that people think it's okay to just stand back when an injured person is hurting, possibly even dying, and not take any physical steps to help them.

There was a famous case in NYC in the '60's of a young woman who was brutally raped and murdered next to a very populated apartment building. Everyone heard her calling for help, but no one moved to help her or call the police until well after she was dead. I am sure that people prayed for her as she lay, screaming for help in a pool of her own blood. I am equally sure that wouldn't have been much comfort to Miss Genovese.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

311. What does that have to do with anything?

You haven't read a single one of my posts, have you? I give up, you just don't understand what you're reading.

[Modem Butterfly]

315. There's no need to get insulting

My message has been clear and consistant throughout: pray all you want, but help your fellow human beings first.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

317. MY message is clear too

THEY BELIEVED THEY WERE HELPING THEIR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS THROUGH PRAYER.

That's it.

[Modem Butterfly]

321. I'm sure that's what the folks who failed to help Kitty Genovese thought

Let me put it another way: there were a lot of Dem voters in Florida who prayed for Al Gore to win, but just didn't go to the polls. I'm sure every one of them had the best intentions and felt they were helping Al Gore win.

Wouldn't it have been nice if they'd voted too?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

323. Wow

Just wow.

I'm not going to dignify that with a thought out response.

[progmom]

337. do you have some published statistics on this?

wondering where this came from. :shrug:

[Shell Beau]

238. I agree with you 150%.

I have tried to say pretty much the same thing, but I felt like I was talking in circles! Respect is a two-way street! ;)

[Modem Butterfly]

233. Sounds like they needed it!

Honestly, if there are 27 people injured around you, couldn't you find something to do other than wait for emergency response and pray?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

239. Not if I didn't have medical experience

They were praying, and they believed it was some sort of help. In some ways it probably lifted people's spirits to the point where they weren't freaking out and causing more havoc than necessary. I don't think there's anything wrong with having faith. And I honestly think it scares people who are not into religion that other people can put so much faith into something else other than themselves.

[Modem Butterfly]

241. You don't need medical experience to administer first aid

Stop the bleeding. Apply ice to swollen limbs. Keep people in shock warm. Stop folks with potential neck injuries from moving around too much. Keep open burn wounds clean. Get moveable people out of danger. Find the first aid kit. Keep burning materials away from people who aren't moving.

You don't need an MD for this stuff.

[Shell Beau]

243. Why are you so certain that didn't take place?

[Modem Butterfly]

245. Because I read the article

[Shell Beau]

247. So did I.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

252. Psst

It didn't say anything about those people NOT being helped. But oh my god, I guess you're just going to tell me to read the article again, right? :eyes:

[Shell Beau]

257. It said that the nurse AND OTHERS helped and that

many (not ALL) dropped to their knees in prayer. People deserve some credit. I don't know anyone who wouldn't help if they could. Nowhere does it say that the others could have helped but decided to kneel down and pray. Why assume that they didn't help? I believe in the kindness of people more than that. If I was going to assume anything, I would assume they did help.

[Modem Butterfly]

260. Actually, it said the other people weren't helping

I'm sure once the emergency response crews came, they were helped.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

263. Where did it say that?

:eyes:

[Shell Beau]

265. It doesn't!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

269. Exactly.

I just want her to point out the invisible ink paragaph we can't see that says "The other injured victims of this incident were laying around with no help, they in fact did not have any sort of help until ambulances arrived on the scene" or something like that. :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

271. I thought you said you read the article.

"many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed."

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

273. Again

Where does it say the injured weren't being helped? :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

275. "many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed."

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

277. Many...

meaning not all, right?

[Shell Beau]

274. Key word = MANY

and it doesn't say whether or not it was after they did all they could or not. You are assuming that they didn't help and instead only prayed. I read the article, but I am wondering if we read the same one!

[Modem Butterfly]

281. The people who were praying weren't administering first aid

"many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed."

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

284. The people who were praying weren't, right

What about the people who weren't praying? Were they standing around shooting the shit? Or maybe helping the injured?

[Modem Butterfly]

291. Again, I have no beef with the minority who weren't praying

We don't know what they did. But whatever actions they took do not excuse the inactions of the many who did nothing but pray.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

294. Why?

The people who weren't praying probably gave the injured adequate care. If all 80 had given first aid it would have been a large mass of people trying to do the same thing all at once. It's better to let a few organized people administer first aid, while others wait.

[Modem Butterfly]

298. We don't know what they were doing

80 people were in the group, 27 were injured, 1 was a nurse who attended a young boy and presumably his parents were too distraught to do much. That leaves 50 people for 27 injured, less than two to assist each person.

[Shell Beau]

309. Only so many people can provide assistance.

Too many can cause havoc.

[Modem Butterfly]

319. There were 27 injuries and 50 other people

I'm sure the situation was quite crazy. That's no excuse not to help.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

322. they were helping...

through prayer

[Shell Beau]

326. And I don't have any information that they didn't help, and

no matter what you say, you can't possibly either. At least not from that article.

[Shell Beau]

297. This is seriously becoming even more useless. One

thing I HOPE we can agree on is that we don't really know what happened there. Many could mean 50, while 30 helped. I don't know and neither do you!

[Modem Butterfly]

268. "many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed."

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

270. That doesn't infer *nobody* was helping the injured.

Good try though.

[Modem Butterfly]

272. Pretty hard to carry ice and apply bandages while on your knees praying

Unfortunately.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

276. Omg really?

Because, like, not ALL of the people were praying. Maybe the others were like, just like, standing around and not carrying ice and applying bandages? Oh that must be it. Like, thanks for clearing that up. Gee.

:eyes:

Again, I urge you to read the quote you keep using as back up. It says "most", which means not all, which actually means there were people not praying... most likely people helping the injured. Good luck with the reading.

[Modem Butterfly]

282. I have no problem with the folks who actually helped out

And I have no problem with having a prayer after the fact. But once again, there's a time and a place for everything, including prayer.

[Shell Beau]

Well, as someone who prays, if not then, than when?

I will assume they helped and then prayed, like most people would. Yes, even those who pray.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

290. What I assumed

Is that some people prayed, while others aided the injured. If all 80 people were aiding the injured it would have been a huge mess.

[Shell Beau]

293. Right! And some people could possibly do more damage.

I am sure all did what they could.

[Modem Butterfly]

301. You mean 50

There were 80 people in total, 27 injured

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

304. Whatever, 50

Just replace 50 with 80 and that's still my argument.

[Modem Butterfly]

299. If you want to make that assumption, that's fine

But it directly contradicts the article.

[Shell Beau]

303. Show me where. And tell me the what the exact number

of "Many" is. Many could be 40, 30, 60, etc.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

305. It could mean 10, 20

"Many" is subjective

[Modem Butterfly]

308. It couldn't be more than 50

FYI, there were 27 injured out of 80 people total.

But having read the article, you knew that.

[Shell Beau]

313. I read the article. A few times actually trying to find things

you said was in there.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

287. Why do they all have to help in non-prayer ways?

I mean, if everyone was being treated to first aid by those not praying, what is the big deal? :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

310. 27 is a lot of people who need help

And a lightning storm is a very dangerous situation.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

314. When did I ever say it wasn't?

Please tell me, because you obviously see secrets in my words that even I don't know about. :eyes:

[Shell Beau]

278. How do you know they didn't pray after they did all they could do!

You don't!

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

280. She doesn't

She'd just like to assume things that aren't even proven.

[Shell Beau]

283. I guess she'd also like to assume that most

people are assholes that would rather do anything than help injured people. Most people I know are caring and generous people who would help, if they could, in a situation like that. But then again, I guess if they pray then that automatically means they are stupid. :sarcasm:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

285. Oh, obviously

I mean those who believe in prayer are just idiots.

:sarcasm:

[Shell Beau]

288. I mean if they believe that praying may actually be helpful,

then how in the world could they possibly have enough sense to try and help someone who is injured? Again -->:sarcasm:

[Modem Butterfly]

330. You really have a personal problem with folks who don't pray, don't you?

I think that's just sad. I am polite to you and post calmly and rationally, and you just try to put horrible, hateful words into my mouth.

What a shame.

[Shell Beau]

332. I don't have a personal problem with anyone. I was being

sarcastic. If I offended you (which was not my intention), then I apologize. I have also reacted in a calm and rational manner. I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic. It is just as silly to assume what I said in that post as it is to assume that people didn't do all they could.

[Modem Butterfly]

334. Some posts go too far for a simple, "Sorry, sarcasm" to be effective

[Shell Beau]

336. Well, I offered my apology if it offended you. What you do

with it is up to you.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

333. I don't have a problem with those who don't pray

I actually am not a Christian and don't pray, so no, I don't have a problem with myself or people who don't pray.

[Modem Butterfly]

335. Actually, that was directed at another poster

[Modem Butterfly]

327. Wow, that's really insulting. It's also not at all what I've said

There's really no need to try to gin up a hatred that isn't there.

Let the people pray. But let the injured get help first.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

331. They got help.

I feel like I'm repeating myself.

[Modem Butterfly]

312. "many of the 80 family members got on their knees and prayed."

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

316. That's your only argument, right?

So sad.

[Shell Beau]

325. What about this one?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/18/lightning.strike.ap/

[Shell Beau]

264. I didn't see that anywhere!

I did, however, see this from the article:

She ran to David and began cardiopulmonary resuscitation compression while others, including the boy's grandfather, helped with the breathing.

[WhollyHeretic]

302. You talk about masked hatred

and that's what your post here seems to be:

"And I honestly think it scares people who are not into religion that other people can put so much faith into something else other than themselves."

So people who aren't religious are scared and self-absorbed? Please practice what you preach.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

307. Not at all

I'm not generalizing to atheists/agnostics/non-believers. I'm just saying people's faith seems to scare some people who do not believe, I wasn't passing a judgement on that... and I said nothing about being self-absorbed.

[progmom]

324. i really think you're reading way more into that post than what was there

i didn't read it that way at all. :shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

163. What's an anti-theist?

If you don't believe in Santa, are you an anti-claus?

[AntiCoup2K4]

207. Anti-theist as opposed to atheists

Seems like there's always been two distinct groups of "non believers" on DU.

The majority of them are atheists and agnostics who don't dig God themselves, and might take exception to the 10 commandments being in courthouses or other such public displays, but aside from that aren't too offended by others' belief systems.

The other group, whom I call the anti-theists, are the ones who seem to have this deep seeded hatred of God and anyone who believes in Him. I'll leave it to their psychologist to determine where such irrational views come from (after all, why devote so much energy to hating something you don't even believe in) but the threads started by these kinds often turn into flame fests.

I suspect some of this latter group are also role playing, if you get my meaning. Helps perpetuate the "Liberals are enemies of God" lie that you hear on the 700 Club.

So to answer your question, the "anti-claus" would be someone who had an irrational hatred of Santa. Like the Burgermeister Meisterburger from that old cartoon.

[RPM]

208. are you offended if i say:

The group, whom I call the theists, are the ones who seem to have this obsessive love of God and anyone who believes in Him. I'll leave it to their psychologist to determine where such irrational views come from (after all, why devote so much energy to loving something you can't even prove exists) but the threads started by these kinds often turn into flame fests.

[AntiCoup2K4]

211. Not offended at all

The only threads of that type ever started around here were from Freeper Disruptors. :)

Just like....... ah never mind, they'll figure it out eventually.

[RPM]

214. first you insinuate that i need to see a shrink, then that I am a freeper

you are a barrel of laughs - i think you're OK.

Anyway - cool if you are not offended by that statement; but i fear if i posted it as a new thread, folks would slam it and call me all kinds of names.

Just goes to show, you can call an atheist crazy for not believing in god, but you can't call a theist crazy for believing in god. :eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

224. Wow. So everyone who disagrees with you on prayer and religion...

...is a Freeper?

That's pretty arrogant.

[AntiCoup2K4]

266. I never said any such thing.

However, there is only one group that benefits from being able to point to a thread like this one and say "see, I told you those DUmmies hated God!".

And it isn't the normal atheists. Or the progressive Christians.

[Modem Butterfly]

209. ROFLMAO!

:rofl:

There are all sorts of atheists. We're a very diverse lot, and you'll find that some things make some of us angrier than others. But I have yet to see any atheist who actually hated a diety or its followers, whether Xian or otherwise. I may not have met every atheist on the planet yet, but I've met several, and I've been an atheist on DU since before 9/11. I have yet to see the creature you describe.

[AntiCoup2K4]

212. As I said, the anti-theists are in the minority.

But you don't see this thread as fitting the criteria?

[Modem Butterfly]

213. Not at all, frankly

The OP is frustrated with people who think that standing around (okay, kneeling) and thinking happy thoughts is better than helping wounded people. I think that's a sentiment that most folks share. There's a time and a place for everything, prayer included. I don't think you have to be anti-anything except human inaction in time of emergency to hold that opinion.

[WhollyHeretic]

227. I think one of the biggest problems on this thread is that

most of the people never read the article. It wasn't just one person hurt it was 27. With 27 people hurt everyone should have been helping the injured people. Couldn't these people have prayed silently while helping people instead of dropping to their knees. Seems like a rather ridiculous reaction when you are surrounded by injured people.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

232. The 27 people WERE being helped.

:eyes:

[Modem Butterfly]

235. Physical assistance should trump spiritual assistance in an emergency

Certainly an argument can be made that saving a person's life should be accomplished before saving someone's soul.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

244. That's not what I'm saying at all

I'm saying THEY WERE BEING HELPED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE GIVEN THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE. While you may think you know exactly what to do in a situation like that, chances are you might have panicked just as easily (unless you're an EMT, nurse, etc). And some people probably panicked and turned to whatever they knew. For some people, it was their religion. I don't think they were trying to save souls. I think they were just trying to get a grasp of the situation. I'm sure if something catastrophic happened to me, I'd be entirely too disheveled to think about what to do next. And maybe some people are better at the whole "emergency care" thing than others, but I know I'd probably be crying hysterically and not much help to anybody. Chances are, the people praying, were people who wouldn't have been able to help in any other way.

[Modem Butterfly]

248. So 50 people were incapable of doing anything other than praying?

You don't think very highly of these folks, do you?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

254. Putting words into my mouth, are you?

It's typical that your only response to what I just said was to turn it around into something I didn't even say... perhaps because you lacked a better response?

[Modem Butterfly]

258. Delete- Double Post

Delete

[Modem Butterfly]

259. Not really.

THEY WERE BEING HELPED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE GIVEN THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE...And some people probably panicked and turned to whatever they knew. For some people, it was their religion. I don't think they were trying to save souls. I think they were just trying to get a grasp of the situation... Chances are, the people praying, were people who wouldn't have been able to help in any other way.

Gosh, if I said a given group of Xians are people who wouldn't be able to help in an emergency by doing anything other than praying, I would get my post deleted. And rightly so.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

261. That's not what I was saying.

I didn't say they couldn't do anything else. I said perhaps some of them were just unable to provide any other sort of help other than prayer. Maybe praying was what they felt would help most.

[Modem Butterfly]

267. Actually, that is what you were saying

Chances are, the people praying, were people who wouldn't have been able to help in any other way.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

279. Most likely true.

They probably thought the best way they could help was through prayer. Just because you don't believe in its power, doesn't mean that it doesn't work for those who believe in it.

[Modem Butterfly]

328. Unfortunately, whether prayer work for anyone is utterly beside the point

If you're praying for help to the injured, and you're actually right there in a position to help the injured...


... don't you think it's possible you were put there in answer to someone else's prayer?

[WhollyHeretic]

236. READ the article

The people were praying before the ambulances got there. The boy was being helped but what about the other 26? :eyes:

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

255. Um

Green, where does it say that they WEREN'T being helped? Just curious.

[sakabatou]

150. Scary...

Remind me to stay away from those people.

[RetroLounge]

151. 80 people praying?

You'd think at least a few of them might start cutting up that tree for firewood...

RL

[qanda]

152. Prayer has helped me in so many situations

I would rather have someone praying than being hysterical and in the way of the person giving or receiving medical attention.

[RPM]

156. and i would rather have somebody providing substantive medical help

rather than petitioning a being whose existance is, at best, questionable...

[BikeWriter]

159. If another wished to invoke Jesus, Jehovah, God, Buddah, Mohammed...

God/dess, Satan or whoever, I don't see it as being your right or mine to intervene, other than requesting assistance if we were qualified to do so.

[CanuckAmok]

164. Prayer is useless. Everybody knows lightning is God's wrath. n/t

...

[Tweed]

167. Right, because you know exactly what happened

even though you weren't there at the time. You are so much "smarter" than those other 'fools'. I didn't realize you were omniscient and knew all. Why aren't you a millionaire off the lottery?



:sarcasm:

I don't post things dissing atheism, why do you post things against Christianity? Are you threatened by Christianity? Does its presence drive you to make posts that knock it down so that you can sleep better at night? How pathetic. Please leave your hate posts for other websites. This is a tolerant website. If you want to post things about the virtues of atheism, go ahead, but check your anti-Christianity at the DU Front Page.

[Shell Beau]

174. Look I've tried. It is pointless. There are some

here who just don't get it. I've wasted enough of my time trying to argue your exact point!

[Submariner]

202. Because there is NOTHING to pray to!!!!

It's 2005 for chrissakes. Pick up a physics book and join reality.

Excuse me for blowing up, but praying to the gods of barbarian myths and fairy tales is very irritating to read and hear about.

[progmom]

210. why does this bother you?

how does it impact you directly?

[Submariner]

215. In my business

of environmental protection (30 yrs as a marine biologist) I am continuously saddened to explain the science to someone, or some group, or some stakeholder organization, only to have it implied or said "Don't worry about the environment....god will take care of it...or god put it here for us to use ALL of it, etc."

It bothers me and impacts me directly to see people fall back on the "let us pray" theme instead of addressing the problems realistically. Case in point, global warming.

I come to DU for enlightened information, but sort of go berserk when I see the god oriented threads. Part of my striking out is probably being pissed off that the nuns wasted the first 18 years of my life teaching me that totally useless and inane god bullshit! I wish they had put a science book in front of me instead of that blasted bible and catechism.

It's the lapsed catholic turns into scientist thingy }(

End of rant.

[RPM]

216. god will provide

that is the part of praying that bothers me.

"god will provide" is one of the worst pieces of advice that any philosophy has injected into human existence. Despite the many positive exhortations that one can draw from christianity, this nugget of wisdom serves only to enslave persons to ignorance, lack of accountability, lack of self-reliance, and ultimately either hastened death or fealty to a human who will provide...

[progmom]

217. for many, science and religion are not mutually exclusive

:shrug:

i see where you're coming from. but i hope you can see that there are rational, right-thinking Christians who fight for environmental reform too... ;)

[RPM]

218. its those for whom it is mutually exclusive that scare me

:scared:

[progmom]

219. agreed

me too.

[Shell Beau]

222. That is your opinion. I know science very well, one can believe in both.

And I certainly think that he needed medical help which he got. I pray daily. And just like I have no proof there is a God, you have no proof there isn't. And there is no sense in arguing about that b/c it is a matter of personal belief.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

220. So?

"Nine ambulance, fire, paramedic and police units from around the county arrived. Twenty-seven people were treated at various hospitals and three, including David and Bell, were flown to Pittsburgh by air ambulance. Bell and the third person, Sarah Cochran of Franklin, were treated and released from Mercy Hospital."

The boy was being given medical attention already. I don't think that they had a problem getting ambulances + medical help for the people hurt. If people want to pray, what the fuck is wrong with that? I guess I don't really understand your beef with the situation.

You don't have to be a fundie, or even a Christian, to believe in prayer + positive healing thoughts. I don't think these people were out of order.

[Misunderestimator]

289. What a silly, divisive thread this is...

"Nine ambulance, fire, paramedic and police units from around the county arrived. Twenty-seven people were treated at various hospitals and three, including David and Bell, were flown to Pittsburgh by air ambulance. Bell and the third person, Sarah Cochran of Franklin, were treated and released from Mercy Hospital."

Why did those nine ambulance, fire, paramedic and police units arrive? Maybe some people called them while the others prayed... I don't think you'd care for the other answer, which is that those prayers worked and they miraculously showed up.

You can't have it both ways.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

296. Thank you, Misunderestimator!

That's the same paragraph I quoted earlier and somehow it got me involved in a flamewar. :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

318. I suspect that's the whole point of the thread...

I'm the first one to object to Christianity and hypocritical Christians when they aim to hurt me or others, but to complain simply that people pray? How silly is that? Especially in an instance when everyone was taken care of, a medical practioner was on the scene administering CPR and NINE, count them... NINE emergency vehicles showed up to help.

I don't like this kind of divisiveness just for the sake of divisiveness... to me it makes me concerned that the OP is TRYING to give atheists a bad name, trying to misrepresent us for some ulterior motive. All I can say is that he doesn't speak for this one.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

320. thank you

I'm not really Christian... but I do believe in spirituality and think prayer is fine. I just think this thread is hurting a lot of people because of the way it was presented.

:(

[progmom]

329. swooping in with the voice of reason....again

[RPM]

338. Hey Mods - can we lock this???

it doesnt seem to be serving any useful discourse purposes (if it ever did at all)

Thanks!

[Moderator]

339. Locking.

This thread has worn out any usefulness it may have had.