Jazz players: in front of the beat vs behind the beat

[H5N1]

What does this mean to you?
Some players (bass players especially)
talk about 'playing in front of the beat'
sometimes and 'playing behind the beat' at other times.
Can you name an example of each.

[democracyindanger]

1. I think they're talking about syncopation

Syncopation is playing a note at a time that is different than the expected beat. Listen to any Thelonious Monk tune, he's a master at it.

[H5N1]

2. This is like bebop vs swing

syncopation is more drastic, more dramatic -
this is a subtle thing

[H5N1]

3. I guess, by definition, it would be a sort of syncopation

but that is not the exact answer I am seeking

[GumboYaYa]

5. Exactly, playing before or after the beat can create syncopation

but they are not the same thing. Syncopation is just emphasizing notes and beats where they would ordinaily not be emphasized and demphasizing them where they would ordinarily be emphasized (using a very broad defnition).

[GumboYaYa]

4. It is literally where you play on the beat....

Any time can be subdivided into more units of time. So for example, 4/4 time contains four beats, but each of those four can be broken down into more units. Playing before the beat means playing on an early subdivision of a beat and after the beat is the latter portion of the beat.

You can play before, on or after the beat. Playing before the beat gives the music a moving feel, like it is going somewhere. A good example is Art Blakey. On the beat is easy, it is on the beat, but can have a flat feel in Jazz. After the beat gives the music a cool, mellow feel. Think Miles Davis; that is an excellent example of playing after the beat.

Hope that helps.

[H5N1]

7. No, still don't get it...try this...

If I am a bass player and I am playing ahead of the beat(driving the band), how far ahead am I?
A 128th, a 256th?
See what I'm getting at?

Thank You for replying, by the way

[GumboYaYa]

10. It depends.....

on the feel you want to create with the music. I play trumpet so I have a slightly different perspective than that of a bass player, but if you are playing bass and want to play ahead of the beat, you play off the drummer. Where you are on the beat depends upon where the drummer is on the beat.

Playing in front of the beat is much easier than playing beind the beat. You have to have a damn good drummer who doesn't slow down when you go behind the beat.

Here is a link that will show you a good example of playing before th beat: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000I8UF/102-8783394-4484907?v=glance Listen to "moanin".

For after the beat, listen to any Miles Davis tune. Miles almost always plays behind the beat.

[leftofthedial]

6. a beat

(as defined by all the instruments that are sounding at that point in the measure)

is not instantaneous--it lasts for a fraction of a second

in front of the beat means playing in the earlier part of that fraction (or even extending the front of that fraction by playing slightly early)--this tends to "push" the rhythm, giving the illusion of a faster tempo and more energy

behind the beat means playing in the later part of that fraction of a second or even extending the beat by playing slightly late--this is much more laid back

[H5N1]

8. Try this...

can you give me an example of a bass part
that is in front of the beat and a bass part
that is in back of the beat?
I understand the math, I just don't get how it's
supposed to feel.

Thank you for answering

[H5N1]

9. Oh Ohhh, looks like I've pestered all the cool cats away

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. It's a hard concept to internalize

Drummers like Elvin Jones would push the beat and pull it back, creating tension and release. You can hear it on some things he did with the great Joe Farell. Soloists can create a feeling of tension by playing a broken up string of sixteenth or thirty-second notes slightly ahead of the beat or slowing down and creating release. They can even anticipate the next chord change by playing into it slightly ahead of time while still in the measure of the previous chord, or lingering in the previous chord while the piano or guitar moves on to the next. Some Coltrane tunes end up getting progressively faster and faster for effect, as he pushes the beat. Listen to his tune Ogunde. It's something you've got to feel and hear.