What was so bad about Good Times?

[Kraklen]

TV Land has been running a marathon, I hadn't watched it before. I've heard people say it's really racist, but I don't get where they're getting that. OK, it's a poor black family. So what? Black families were and are underrepresented in TV. Poor families were and are underrepresented in TV. A poor black family seems to me to be more representative of American society to me than a black family where one parent is a doctor and another is a lawyer at any rate. The characters are all good, noble people. James is a hard working, loving father who can't catch a break. Esther Rolle's character is a sweet, loving, God fearing lady who's the heart and soul of the family. Little Michael's involved with the black empowerment movement, where else do you see that one TV, even these days? And J.J., despite being the goofy slapstick guy that any comedic group has, he's still a developed character, he's a troubled but brilliant art student. Sure, he's got a catchphrase, but it's not any different than "Oh, Ricky", "Heyyyy," "Whatchou talkin' bout," or "Bite my shiny metal ass."

The show I've been watching has been a pretty good, groundbreaking even, sitcom.

What's the deal?

[skypilot]

1. When I was a kid I thought this show was funny...

...but last year I sat through part of a "Good Times" marathon and the thrill was definitely gone. The thing that struck me was how perverse it was to call a show "Good Times" when it seemed that every time this family was about to catch a break of some kind something bad would happen to them. I was worn out after about four or five episodes. And I seem to remember (this is from when I was little) that the family was all excited about moving to Mississippi and then they get the worst news of all: Dad has died.

Ugh!!

[Kraklen]

4. Well, yeah, the title's sarcastic.

So is the theme song...

Temporary lay offs
Good times
Easy credit ripoffs
Good times...

But the family unit stays together and upbeat despite the poverty.

[skypilot]

8. The problem wasn't just poverty.

It seems that every major storyline had to end on a down note. It's as though the writers had a formula. It's not a fun show to watch now that I'm an adult.

[youspeakmylanguage]

18. Family Guy made light of this...

They did a little sequence where the Florida character was lamenting something horrible, crying, and JJ would pop in randomly and just scream "DY-NO-MITE!" to a laugh track. It really hit what was wrong with this show on the head.

[Kraklen]

21. LOL.

"MY NAME IS FLORIDA! FLORIDA! DAMN! DAMN! DAMN!"

I think Cleveland's ex-wife is a conglomeration of Florida and Wheezy.

[cmkramer]

20. Theme song

Wasn't that from the Broadway musical "Raisin" based on "A Raisin in the Sun" which Ralph (Michael) Evans had been appearing in?

[xmas74]

11. The dad died because of a contract dispute in real life.

The actor (John Amos) wanted more money and they refused. Instead of getting what he wanted, they killed off his character.

[skypilot]

14. I didn't know that but...

...with the show being so downbeat, the father's dying fit seamlessly in with its tone. I can understand trying to balance out the humor with some drama; that's one of the things I used to like about "Roseanne" before it went completely downhill. But the writers for "Good Times" went overboard. I'm sure it wasn't much of a stretch for them to kill off the father.

[xmas74]

15. At that time it was pretty common to kill off characters or

"send them away" somewhere else on a few shows. If you didn't like your contract you pretty much had to suck it up or get ready for unemployment.

[Xtreme]

2. I watched the entire marathon

I rate the episode where James (the father) dies, right up there with when Archie talks to edith after she dies episode.

I grew up in S.C. REALLY small town, when I moved to Chicago I wanted to look at the south side. Really shocked me into reality compared to the good times show.

[Shell Beau]

3. I never heard it was racist, but I never really watched it a lot.

[CatWoman]

5. I think it was the "minstrel" theme

i.e., the only happy blacks are goofy, poor, clownish, vaudevillian types.

I remember reading that the Florida character was really pissed with the way the show was going when JJ emerged as the star.

she couldn't stand his buffoonery, and wanted out of the show.

[Kraklen]

Hmm, J.J. just strikes me as the Kramer of Good Times.

The other characters weren't at all goofy clownish vaudeville types.

[CatWoman]

7. However, JJ was the star

the other characters are moot.

[Kraklen]

10. Not in the episodes I saw.

Maybe it went downhill?

[CatWoman]

12. TV Land or VHI or someone did the documentary

I'm sorry, I can't remember.

Maybe you can do a search and find it.

I'm just reporting what was reported.

BTW -- I watched that show years ago, but can't stand it now.

Same for "What's Happening", "Mama's Family", "Jamie Fox" , etc.

[cmkramer]

19. I don't know that it was considered "racist"

However, there were people who felt it perpetuated stereotypes about African-Americans especially with the buffoonish "J.J." character. And many thought it should have showed a more diverse range of black people and not just poor ones.

I always loved the "audience participation" in the show. Like whenever anyone makes some really relevant point you can always hear somebody shout, "Right on" and there's a lot of approving applause.

Also, the character of "Florida" started out as the maid on "Maude".

[ronnykmarshall]

22. I didn't like the show after they "killed" James.

Eshter Rolle was great on "Maude" and on this show too. JJ was funny, but they just over did it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

26. Even the Cosby show had the cast doing a little dancing

at beginning of the show. It always seemed out of character undignified and sort of minstrel like.

[Deja Q]

6. I loved it back then, still do now...

Except Jimmie Walker has almost as much talent as Britney Spears does.

John Amos and Esther Rolle MADE that show; with Ralph Carter being #3 (particularly earlier on when he was the most vocal. Way-cool.)

Yeah, JJ is a caricature, but even in season 3 - despite his worst moments - he was given some depth.

A shame John Amos was fired; the show lost it after that point. But he and Esther had very good points; they wanted the show to be more serious and lss of JJ's stupid antics. (season 3 is also notorious - when the parents aren't there, it's an episode they wanted no part of. Like the VD one... I see their POV yet I felt it was a well handled episode.)

Of course, James - as in season 2 (the A+++ story where a rich girl dates JJ and her parents hate him) - got to say the N-word in season 3. Not nearly as well written and you could tell John Amos was trying to make it work; professional to the end. But the writing itself, blech. So bad I can't even remember the plot.

Indeed, the episodes where JJ uses "Dynomite" over "I'm Kid Dyn-oh-mite" seem to come off better; the "Kid" usage makes JJ (Jimmie Walker) come across even more baselessly egocentric. But I digress. Sometimes it works too...

Of course, what has Jimmie Walker DONE since Good Times? Not much. Took the money and ran, it seems. I gather he's a repubbie too. :7

It could have been more, but it could have been worse.

[latebloomer]

23. I don't think he's a repub

I saw him at a comedy club last year, and, although his act was not particularly great, he did take a couple swipes at Bush.

[Deja Q]

24. From his own website:

http://www.dynomitejj.com/

His views:

feel Americans should be more tolerant. They believe the new anti-terrorist laws are a violation of an individual's civil rights and that the government will abuse their power, keep in mind American Taliban member Jon Walker is from this area. Newspapers, like the S.F. Chronicle have repeated Jon Walker's father's word's, "He's just a wacky kid, he'll wake up twenty years from now and say,'What the hell was I thinking?'" Steve Lopez, of the L.A Times said, "The Bush Adminstration has gone positively medieval." They also feel that some of the United States policies may have even lead to the attacks. The people here have taken a "wait and see" attitude. The Big Sky Country: Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho: I really haven't been to this region so I don't have much of an opinion. The American people, while not negating the horror of 9-11, are much more concerned about their own economic and lifestyle ... Self Persevation.

...On the other hand, when someone on the Left says something about race, they're standing up for the people. Of course Rush's comments had nothing to do with race and more to do with the NFL's policy. And what happened to the Right of Free Speech? Rush doesn't have it? But of course, the Liberals do. They've called Rush everything from a racist, an idiot, an imbecile, and vile. And don’t forget the book titled, Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot. Imagine if someone wrote a book titled, Al Roker is a Big Fat Idiot. As Affirmative Action continues to prove a policy that no longer works...I’ve got one thing to say...Long Live El Rush-Bo...

Best of all:

There's no way we can fight these people in the usual ways, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq are in disaray themselves. I know a lot of Americans who want to see bombs dropping, and see thousands of turbans exploding into the air, like the hats at a West Point graduation, but that's not going to happen. The problem is, the United States government is giving these "Islamic Fundemental Extremists" too much freedom. Sec. of State, Colin Powell said, "We must protect ourselves from our enemies outside of our boarders and from inside of our Boarders " . David Carary, of the Associated Press, writes, "The hijackers lived the American lifestyle... they went to health clubs, American movies, stripclubs, and to Starbucks for coffee and cookies". Benjamin Netanyahu, Former Isreali Prime Minister said, "All the Federal Marshalls and security checks in the world are not going to stop these fanatics". Osama Bin Laden isn't the problem, even if the U.S. does get him, things won't change. The carefree days of airport security...just checking for illegal aliens and drugs are over. The mobilty of these people is the problem. What should America do? One, revoke ALL temporary visas to the Middle East, and South Central Asia...
(south central Asia, man that's being nice and tidy... why not one blanket policy for ALL? John Walker, who he also blathers on about, didn't look like your typical terrorist...)
There's more...



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=jimmie+walker+bush+republican&btnG=Google+Search

[latebloomer]

25. Hmm, interesting!

He didn't go into that sort of stuff at all during his act-- it was all pretty non-political and innocuous-- I do remember a shot or two at Bush but can't exactly remember what he said-- nothing too bold.

[Syrinx]

9. it was pretty funny

But Jimmie Walker today is embarassing. He was on Letterman recently and it was painful to watch. Letterman knows Walker's not funny, I think, but still has him on from time to time for reasons of personal loyalty. Seems JJ gave Dave a big break many years ago, hiring him as a joke writer.

[youspeakmylanguage]

13. I don't know if race itself sunk that show. It was something else...

I've only watched "Good Times" a few times, but it came across to me as a sitcom about a desperate family who never catches a break. It might be honest, but it's also perpetually depressing.

You could argue that the Bunkers, Bundys or Roseanne's TV family didn't exactly catch breaks either, but there was an undertone of sadness to Good Times that those other sitcoms didn't have. It was like the Evans family was more real than those other three.

Even John Amos perhaps made his character too real - I always got the impression that at times he was ready to snap, which wasn't an impression I got from Archie Bunker even at the worst of times. Yet Amos' character was such a better person than Bunker...

To me, it wouldn't have mattered if the family was black, Puerto Rican, or white. It still wasn't a lot of fun, and that's what sitcoms are supposed to be - fun. It might have made a great drama, though.

[skypilot]

16. I agree.

See my posts #1, #8 and #14.

[youspeakmylanguage]

17. You're right...I'm a Johnny-come-lately! (n/t)

[BronxBoy]

27. I don't know if I could watch a.......

Good Times Marathon today but I do remember what that show and others like it meant to Black folk during the 70s. Black faces were rarely seen on TV. And when they were, it the usual sterotypical bullshit, thieves etc.

So when entire shows were being created around Black ensembles, it was a big deal. Everyone I knew watched. Shows like Sanford and Son, Get Christie Love and Good Times hit the air, there was a certain sense of pride in seeing ourselves on the small screen. In retrospect, they may have been sub-par programs but they were OUR sub-par programs and back then that meant something. Yes they were cartoonish but they also revealed glimpses of the truth. The projects were a hard depressing place sometimes.

Wanna have some fun, rent a movie called Wattstax. It's a documentary about a lengendary concert given in Watts in the late 60's or early 70's. Watch it and see if you can identify some of the people being interviewed about the social problems then who went on to star in a lot of these Black 70's sitcoms.

[Kat45]

28. Janet Jackson was in it for a couple of years

IIRC, she played a little girl who was abused. The Evans' neighbor ended up adopting her.

Here's a pretty good write-up of the show, its significance, and its failings.

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/G/htmlG/goodtimes/goodtimes.htm