Who doesn't know about Santorum bringing home his stillborn child...

[LynneSin]

...and having his other children touch and cuddle it?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61804-2005Apr17.html
In his Senate office, on a shelf next to an autographed baseball, Sen. Rick Santorum keeps a framed photo of his son Gabriel Michael, the fourth of his seven children. Named for two archangels, Gabriel Michael was born prematurely, at 20 weeks, on Oct. 11, 1996, and lived two hours outside the womb.

Upon their son's death, Rick and Karen Santorum opted not to bring his body to a funeral home. Instead, they bundled him in a blanket and drove him to Karen's parents' home in Pittsburgh. There, they spent several hours kissing and cuddling Gabriel with his three siblings, ages 6, 4 and 1 1/2. They took photos, sang lullabies in his ear and held a private Mass.

From my other post it seems there are some of you not aware of it. Yes, nothing like permamently scarring your children by making them touch & cuddle a dead fetus. It's tragic that the Santorums lost their child like that but it's damn creepy as hell to do what they did to that baby and their children!

[Wetzelbill]

1. that is pretty creepy

Santorum gives me the willies. So does Frist. Every time I see Frist I just think about how that guy used to butcher cats and dogs.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. I agree with you, LynneSin.

My three kids have had a lot of loss over the last few years, grandparents, aunt, dear friend and even at the ages of 9,13,15, which they are now, I kept them from the wake. I remember the first time I saw a deceased person in a casket and it was very traumatic.

I think as adults we can handle it better than kids can. Young children especially don't understand the concept of mortality.

[hyphenate]

35. I remember when my grandmother died

when I was 6. I remember we kids were at a friend's house and the adults, including my dad, heard she had died. (She was in the hospital after a heart attack) I remember my dad almost collapsing and crying. He would have been 38 then. I never did go to her funeral. There were a couple of other funerals as well in the family that I never attended.

However, when I was 18, I went to work right after high school as a nurse's aide. I worked in a nursing home, where terminal illness was an everyday thing. Working there gave me the more realistic point of view that death, regardless of who we were, was inevitable. As a result, I know that death is not to be feared if there is nothing but pain in one's life.

Knowing all this, though, makes me doubt the sanity of someone like Santorum, whose behavior suggests he and his family could not cope with this loss. Grieving is one thing, but taking a non-viable fetus (which was, at 20 month, just over 4.5 months old) and treating like a living being is a bit on the ghastly side.

[BrklynLiberal]

3. That he and his wife are sickos comes as no surprise to me. If it was

an everyday citizen doing that, the local child services would probably have taken the other children away from the parents for child abuse. It was a disgusting thing to do, made all the most so by the fact that they were proud of it.

It was just one step removed from Norman Bates and his mother.

[havocmom]

4. No, I hadn't read that. They man is a morbid monster.

His kids are probably messed up something awful. Wonder what would happen to a liberal who pulled such a stunt.

As for the hospital allowing them to take a dead child home...:wtf: do they have any health ordinances around there?

[LynneSin]

6. And we wondered why his kids are homeschooled

Can you imagine what the other kids in school would think if they new how the Santorium kids cuddled a corpse - an unpreserved corpse that usually starts to deteriorate upon death (which is why bodies are embalmed)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Okay, letting the kids see the dead baby, not creepy

although my inclination would have been a private family viewing just before the funeral.

My parents took us to funerals of relatives (never any babies, though) from the time we were little. Their attitude was that death is a part of life, so there's no use hiding it. It's better than having the expected baby just never appear, which I think would cause a child to imagine all sorts of weird things.

HOWEVER--spending "several hours" kissing and cuddling the dead baby and singing lullabies?

Now THAT is creepy.

[LynneSin]

9. Lydia - this wasn't done at a funeral home

Basically they took a dead body directly from the hospital home to their children to touch and cuddle.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Right, that's why I said my inclination would be to

have the kids see the baby briefly at the funeral home.

[xmas74]

63. A friend of mine had a child

who was stillborn. She was born at 33 weeks and the cord had been wrapped around her neck. She and her husband had no other children at home. They wanted to take the baby home to plan out a private service at their home (w/ the assitance of a mortician). They don't believe in embalming and have their own private family lot where a family member was already preparing a grave. Another was preparing a casket (which he believed would be finished w/in a day since it was so small. He was an experienced casket maker.) They were told by the hospital that it was state law here (MO) that they could not release the body to them and that it had to be released to a mortician, even though they wanted to have the funeral w/in the first 24 hours.
Must be nice that someone can bypass what is the norm to fulfill their own wishes while hardworking citizens cannot even follow their family traditions.

[Midlodemocrat]

11. I don't know. I didn't let my kids see

any dead person in our family at the wake. I thought they were too young, my oldest was only 10. If it is someone who is perhaps not quite such a close relative it may be a good idea to get children used to the idea of the wake, etc., but I think it is too traumatic for young kids for their first viewing to be a dearly loved one.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

37. Hear hear....

I think that's very reasonable middle ground, Lydia.

I'm sure Santorum went thru all that, in part, to impress to Pro-Lifers too. It's a blatant, over the top way of demonstrating his *utmost reverence* (:sarcasm:) for unborn children.

[skygazer]

7. I'm no fan of Santorum

But quite honestly, I think that's a lot healthier way to deal with death than the way we commonly do it in the modern era. Used to be people died at home and were laid out in their front parlor where they stayed until the funeral, with family members watching over them 24/7. Parents of dead children often had them photographed because it was the only photo of that child they'd ever have.

Death is a natural and normal event however rather than recognize that, we prefer now to fear it and avoid it at all cost. We ship people away from home to die, even if there's nothing a hospital can really do for them (I'd much rather die at home). We bury them out of a funeral home, which is pretty impersonal if you ask me. We avoid talking to our kids about it which I think is more likely to frighten them than treating it in a straightforward manner.

I disagree - I don't think it's creepy at all. Now HE'S creepy but that's another story.....

[bettyellen]

22. a 1 1/2 year ols kid being handed a corpse is natural?

it's not like these kids chose this themselves. and we use funeral homes because here in the city no ones apartment would fit all their family plus the corpse. it's just a rented space for a ritual, and how personal the event is really comes down to how well loved a person is and nothing more.
i'm not afraid at looking at corpses now but i'm glad i wasn't permiited too see a few in particular when i was very young. denial is a stage of grief, you can get past it without seeing the corpse if you're not living in la la land in the first place.

[skygazer]

74. A corpse is natural

A corpse is the body of someone who was once alive, in this case a sibling/child. I see nothing wrong in holding that body, saying farewell to it, praying over it and expressing love and grief. If handled properly, I see no reason for it to traumatize anyone.

You can speak glibly of not having to see a corpse and living in la la land - my mother died when I was 14 and my family thought they were doing me a favor by not bringing me to the hospital when she died and not allowing me to attend the funeral. They thought it would be too much for me to see my mother dead. The truth is, I've struggled for 30 years with the fact that I was never allowed to say goodbye. I would much rather have dealt with the grief of seeing her than to live with the knowledge that she just disappeared out of my life.

[DS1]

103. Forgive my continuing this train of thought

But look what happend to GWB, his parents took his sister off to die in a hospital, didn't say a word about it, they came home one day without her. Look how he turned out. I'm not suggesting your a sociopathatic asshole, nor did I want to compare you to him, but it's a natural progression of things to say goodbye.

[bettyellen]

118. well, i think it was other stuff that fucked him up...

like not talking about it. :)
talking is different from looking which is again, different from handling.
this was a bit much for a 1 year old.

[bettyellen]

115. wow, what an assupmtion, not glib at all here.

my siblings had their skulls/ faces crushed and their bodies were ID'd by other methods. Somehow they still had open caskets. I was 8 and 9, and I wanted to see them too, and i'm glad my mother knew better after I heard the gruesome details. They didn't look much like they ever did, and no, I didn't want to see them natural either: bloody and mangled.
Not all living kids, or dead bodies are alike. We are talking about kids age 1 thru 6 here, it wasn't their choice really was it?

[skygazer]

121. Check your PM please

Peace.

[bettyellen]

139. likewise, and peace

[sandnsea]

134. Yes, but this is a 6 inch fetus

Subjecting kids to cuddling a dead fetus is just, well, creepy.

[mikehiggins]

8. I didn't know that

When my wife and I first conceived a child it was a bright day for us. Then the baby died at term, and had to be removed via Caesarian.
I had to observe the body for all sorts of reasons, some religious, some legal, some psychological. If anyone had suggested I take a dead body home to show it affection, I would have suggested they seek psychological help themselves. This is about as sick an idea as any I've seen from a right-winger.

And THIS man gets reelected? That's worse than reelecting Bush.

[SarahB]

15. I'm sorry for your loss.

I tend to agree with you along these lines. I miscarried once at 12 weeks. Awful experience and it was hard enough as it was, so I have a small bit of understanding as well. It's hard for me to judge anyone for how anyone "should" handle such a tragedy, but this seems a bit off kilter to me as well.

[LynneSin]

17. Bush was never "re-elected"

You can't be re-elected to something you stole

:D

But I know what you mean!

[Redstone]

56. I was not sure what to think about this until I read your post.

Having gone through what you did, you are the one I'll defer to in forming an opinion.

It's hard for anyone who has not had a similar experience to judge; but you did (though I sure wish you hadn't had to), so I feel morally safe in agreeing with you that this was the act of a depraved pair of parents, not just a grieving pair of parents.

Redstone

[auntAgonist]

10. I had NOT heard about this.

Very creepy. I think, a private family service at a funeral home would have been the thing to do. I can't imagine what they did. I've seen a lost of 'different' things, that one takes the cake though.

I used to work at a funeral home. I know people have different needs and desires. This one's odd though, really odd.

aA

[MrSlayer]

13. The guy is a friggin nutcase.

This was no surprise when I heard about it.

[FuzzySlippers]

14. I had heard of this before

but thanks for reminding me and giving me a case of the heebie-geebies all over again.

[kevsand]

16. Is that even legal?

Aren't there some kind of regulations on disposition of dead bodies? What if this had been an adult instead of a newborn? "Honest officer, it's my mom, she just died and I'm taking her to Thanksgiving dinner so the family can hug her and say goodbye..."

[auntAgonist]

28. there is nothing illegal about it.

I should qualify that by saying that when someone passes at home, it's not unusual for the family to gather and hold off calling the mortuary (funeral home) to pick up the body.

I don't really know about leaving from the hospital though, interesting question.

[bettyellen]

38. in most states it's at least a health code violation.

[auntAgonist]

54. I'm not sure about that ..

I can't find any links to support that claim. I know that in Ontario Canada, bodies do not have to be embalmed if they are going to be buried in a certain time frame, and ... immediate family can view the un-embalmed body. They don't hold open casket (public) viewing.

[auntAgonist]

58. here's what I did find in regards to North Carolina

is embalming required?
No. The law does not require it. However, if you decide to have a viewing more than a day or two after death, the funeral home will discuss the benefits of embalming (i.e. the physical aspects of a body decomposing) and they may be able to require embalming depending on the amount of time that will have passed between the time of death and the viewing.
(Funeral Rule)

Is a vault or burial liner required?
No. The law does not require it. However, cemeteries are allowed to set their own rules. Many require a vault or burial liner to keep the casket from sinking. This means less maintenance for them. However, if a cemetery tells you that you need a vault or burial liner to bury cremated remains, look elsewhere.
(Funeral Rule)

Can a member of the family act as the funeral director?
Yes and no. In NC, a family may bury their own dead. A death certificate is needed (see below) and you would need to check with your local health department to make sure the location that you have chosen poses no health risk such as possible contamination of a source of water. Some counties require a permit for the initiation of a cemetery or grave site to ensure that wells and sewage systems would not be impacted. Your local Planning and Zoning Department would be the contact for such a permit. However, if you have chosen an established graveyard, church graveyard, cemetery or memorial garden, the health and planning departments do not need to be consulted.

Please note that in NC, only licensed funeral directors may make funeral arrangements and call themselves funeral directors. Specific training and internship is required to be licensed. Consequently, if you choose to handle everything yourself, you may bathe and dress the body but you may not do it for pay or pay anyone else to do it other than an employee of a funeral home or crematory. Embalming or cremation may not be done by anyone other than a licensed, trained employee of either a funeral home or crematory.

http://www.fullcirclecare.org/endoflife/nc.htm

[bettyellen]

70. there's viewing and there's handling unsupevised.

very different things.

[auntAgonist]

78. I agree

I am just very curious about what the law states. Not trying to argue with you :)

I read about your loss earlier in the thread, my condolences to you.


aA.
aka kesha

[bettyellen]

108. my brother said it's all health code stuff.

and it varies from state to state. and there are laws that you can't keep a dead body as if it's your property. i think it's mostly about proper disposal of the remains kinda stuff, and also making sure you don't use it as a side show exhibit. heck, they called it a 20 week baby and not a fetus just to make him happy. and the laws might be different from fetus to baby further confusing matters. i'm sure they just overlooked any violation because of the grief.
no, i didn't think you were trying to argue, no worries.
i get a little weirded out by those who think you have to look at it. that's a really personal decision, and i think it's weirdly thoughtless to assume it's the healthier route to take.
we're not all from the same mold, you know? and for kids that young, i can't be convinced there's a benefit, unless it's to the parents.

[auntAgonist]

111. agreed again ..

I think personally it's too gruesome. Although a visit to the baby (in the hospital) after he/she died isn't unusual, it's just the cuddling and stuff ..

[bettyellen]

122. exactly, and if the kid shied away, i think it would have been okay too.

gosh i just got called glib just because i'm not showing enough signs of my childhood trauma upthread. someone thinks they have the only dearly departed in the history. doh.

[caty]

18. Oh,

those:crazy: r.w.ers. They're warped.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

19. Woah.... that's truly messed up. How can that even be legal?!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. Look at the age of the kids

I think they were a bit young to face death and cuddle it. I went to open casket funerals when I was six and eight. Frankly, they creeped me out a lot. I have no idea what I would have felt if I had had to touch the corpse.

[Spinzonner]

21. How would you know that his children are permanently scarred

by the experience? It's possible that exactly the opposite effect occurred.

There are studies that suggest that bonding with and then letting go of a dead child - of any age - can be benefical to the family individually and collectively. And, I'm sure there are studies that might state exactly the opposite. Probably depends on the people and how it is handled.

Contributors to this thread are doing the same thing as they revile from Republicans: judging situation from a distance without a real understanding of the individuals and the details involved. Congratulations, you're now Junior Deputy Frists.

And then there's the matter of exploiting a very private and personal matter, like they did with the Schiavo case.

I revile the man's attitude, tactics and hypocrasy as much as anyone but you don't do yourself or anyone any good by imitating or becoming him.

[bettyellen]

25. they exploited it themselves... jeeze the wife took a book deal over it...

yet we can't chat about it?
death is really really hard for a kid to understand, i don't see how NOT forcing a livid corpse into their arms could be potentially harmful. no doubt, some people prefer denial and that ain't healthy... but a 1 1/2 year old? pointless and potentially damaging. thank god the kid probably forgot it a few months later.

[JohnKleeb]

29. Hell when I was 14

Seeing my godmother/great aunt in a casket kinda scared me.

[bettyellen]

36. i'm glad i didn't see my sibs.

jeeze, i was 8 and then 9. and they were all seriously smashed up and reconstructed. i didn't need to see that to know they weren't coming back.
i wanted to go, and am so glad my mom wouldn't allow it. those images can stick.

[JohnKleeb]

40. I didnt know you had lost siblings

Thats always tough. Yeah I am very lucky sad as this may seem that my uncle died when I was one instead of how old I am now, since he died so tragically, it was sad learning the truth a few summers ago from my dad. Whats really sad is how its been like my mom is an only child, me and my brothers are my mom's folks only grandkids.

[bettyellen]

45. yep, my oldest brother and my two sisters together the following year.

and they were all smashed up pretty bad too. i remember hearing how much work they had to do and how odd they looked. trust me if it's someone you love you don't need to see shit like that to "accept it".
that's just the biggest crock, some people have problems accepting reality, some don't. that's just how it is.

[JohnKleeb]

49. I am sorry

Thats terrible, never lost a sibling or even a cousin, my grandmother was around 3 when her brother died of an infection, he was a teen though so it was differennt.

[bettyellen]

55. they were all teens too.

16, 18, 19. but i was a lot younger than them.
that's why me and my brothers were so tight, and why it's pretty weird now that things are so strained.

[JohnKleeb]

57. Yeah youre the youngest arent you

My dad when I was 14 told me of how he had to go to the morgue with his father in law, my mom's dad to identify my uncle, its just so sad, I am glad I wasnt 18 when he died because then well they probably would had be go with, and death always has been a scary subject for me.

[bettyellen]

67. yep, i was the baby.

but i had already seen plenty of scary shit by then. my brother was scizophrenic, so there had been close calls before. the house was hectic, to say the least, for many years before that. we didn't have the stigma about death, it was about menatl illness. that was a bigger taboo. :shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

68. I know all too much about hectic houses

Sigh was a warzone here again today, the alcoholism is on both sides of the family, I guess thats why while I of course dont mind girls who drink, I may want to marry one who doesn't. And on mental illness, I dont think that affects my family however there was a mental retardation in my mom's dads family.

[LynneSin]

72. Betty, I had no idea

:hug:

[sandnsea]

135. honey I was over 40

First time I'd ever been to an open casket funeral. It was my step-mother's, who actually raised me, and I never did go all the way up to the casket.

[Maddy McCall]

23. How morbid!

I see those kids REALLY rebeling when they hit adulthood.

[Finder]

24. This article had the opposite effect on me.

It certainly explains his passion regarding the issue. I don't think what they did was off the wall by any means. Everybody mourns their own way and closure is important, especially for children.

The article really tugged at my heart and I am extremely anti-Santorum.

[arwalden]

26. He's A Ghoul! -- Can You Believe That Some Folks Around Here ADMIRE Him??

[Kathy in Cambridge]

31. People around here ADMIRE HIM?

:wtf:

Are you sure they weren't visitors from somewhere else?

[arwalden]

33. Yes... Some Do... And They Post Messages About It.

With carefully couched language, of course. The author of the messages I've seen are much too smart to be so blatant about their admiration of Santorum.

If I recall correctly, they feel he's "misunderstood" on religious grounds and "persecuted" here at DU for the SOLE reason that he's a Catholic.

Imagine that!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

42. Oh, I know who you mean

but that person is more Catholic than I am, so therefore knows best. :sarcasm:

[Fenris]

48. Kathy, you are just not Catholic enough.

You're a protestant compared to Mother Superior. :eyes:

[arwalden]

60. Santorum Might Just Be Hiring Himself A New PR Spokesperson.

Wow! Those RW talking points just flow like water from her keyboard. I'm truly impressed at how sincere they sound. It's not like they are cut-n-paste at all. Each one is from the heart and a direct response to each "attack" of Santorum.

[Lars39]

34. Somebody's sticking up for him right now in GD.

:puke:

[Maddy McCall]

39. Please link me up.

:begging: icon. :D

[arwalden]

41. Pass It Here Too...

:thanks: icon

[Kathy in Cambridge]

44. Check your PM

[JohnKleeb]

47. Added my input to that thread

Basically said that what made Santorum's statement so outrageous was his attempt to put a political face on the pedophila. I am I guess pretty let live on sex issues, and I think pedophiles should get tough prison sentances.

[arwalden]

52. I Knew It. -- Sad... but amusing at the same time.

:cry: :rofl:

[LynneSin]

73. I just rechecked this thread - is that post still around

PM me too hun!

[Kathy in Cambridge]

46. Check PM

[Lars39]

53. ~

Bluebear's thread. Kathy's on the job. :D

[Pithlet]

143. I saw that.

Unbelievable.

[fleabert]

83. I seriously do NOT admire him! I hope you aren't including me in that

assertion! I can't stand the fucker, but this isn't something I am willing to judge.

[arwalden]

88. Oh, No Way. -- I Can't Imagine You Being One Of His Fans.

:hi:

[fleabert]

94. :whew:

Don't want anyone to get that idea. I do think there would have been a different reaction if, say, Barbara Boxer and her family had done this. But I think it would have been along the lines of 'hypocrite! she says she pro-choice, but mourns her 20 week old fetus, FLIP FLOPPER!' As if the two are mutually exclusive.

[hyphenate]

27. Grisly

I would say. But it just goes to show the lengths fundie right-wingnuts will go to. It's obvious he's not completely there, and it also goes to show how the mindset of nearly half the people in our country has eroded beyond rational thinking.

[arwalden]

30. FREAKS! -- Dead Babies Can't Hear Lullabies

<< they spent several hours kissing and cuddling Gabriel with his three siblings, ages 6, 4 and 1 1/2. They took photos, sang lullabies in his ear >>

Can you imagine the photo sessions? "Ready... Okay everyone, look this way... SMILE!"

[fleabert]

32. It's actually not that unusual.

I think it's better than leaving the house pregnant, and coming home not pregnant. that scares children as well, sometimes they get the idea that the hospital is a place to get rid of kids.

It is not abnormal for parents and siblings to gain closure by spending time with a stillborn baby, and can actually help with the grieving process. Remember that it is still very normal in a lot of cultures to have a wake at home with any family member that dies. That is what 'parlors' were for in Victorian times.

I hate the man, but I don't find it creepy unless he phyisically forced his other children to do this. If they were open to it, I support it.

(ps- I am a doula, and this subject is covered in our training)

[arwalden]

43. Did You Have A Number In Mind? How Much Is "Not Unusual"?

I can't imagine that this ghoulish practice exceeds 1/2 of 1 percent. Even if it reached 5 percent, it would still not be "usual"... therefore it would be UN-usual.

[bettyellen]

51. i think it's more like "wasn't unusual"

a hospital is not supposed to release a corpse except to a licenced place for health code reasons. yeah, he tucked it under his arm like a football and ran.

[fleabert]

65. now that I don't know anything about.

I need to read the article again, perhaps they had a home birth?

[bettyellen]

69. nope, it was at the hospital. apparently she was determined to go all 9 mo

months and it would have killed her if they didn't take gabe out when they did. from what i understand they knew it would never survive months earlier, but decided to continue the pregnancy. her book is called "Letters to Gabriel"

[fleabert]

82. I am not sure about the laws concerning the body being taken home,

but I know women that have been in similar situations, and they specifically chose a home birth so they could have private time with the baby on their own terms and not a hospitals.

I am happy to dislike him on his merits or lack therof, but I cannot judge him on this matter. I don't know what would be right for me, and I wouldn't want him or anyone else judging me for my decision. It's a painful and difficult time.

[bettyellen]

95. i just think it was screwed up he passed it to a 1 year old.

okay, also to the other kids, it's just too weird for me to comprehend.
but agreed, i think he's also off his nut for his work in congress.

[fleabert]

127. the last birth i attended was a home birth, with a

2 yo, 4 yo, 9 yo, and 11 yo siblings sitting in and around my lap as their mother gave birth not two feet away from us. The two year old was exceptionally curious, as were the others (although they had all seen their younger siblings born at home as well). I doubt she (the 2 year old) will remember it, but she will have pictures of herself at the event, and is forever part of the family memory of the birth.

I can understand the same behavior with death. If that birth had ended in a still birth, all the children would have been there, and experienced the death as a family, rather than seeing mom leave the house pregnant and coming home empty handed. They may have wondered if the baby actually died of if they just didn't bring it home for some reason.

I read a personal account from someone that had a sibling die in utero, and that happened (mom left pg, came home not, no closure or funeral), she created a fear that her mom might get rid of her too someday, if she was bad, that she would just disappear and no one would talk about her ever again.

I far perfer the home event to no event. I would be at home if my baby died in utero, since I plan on having a home birth.

[bettyellen]

133. the home stuff can be a great option, and it would be preferable

if all of us could die in their beds, i know. you do what you can. but life ain't perfect.
mrs santorum had a high risk pregnancy and was where she needed to be to survive. an OR handling trauma is not a "natural" place for the docs or the toddlers. in this case it's the opposite of what you describe- they went to the hospital and came back with a corpse- what fears that would create i wonder? so, let's agree to disagree, ok?
wow, so when are you due? my friend had her baby at home almost a year ago, and they are thrilled they did. they had a duella, and the mom is really into it now. it's one happy healthy little girl. i wish the same for you!

[fleabert]

142. agreed.

I am not currently pg, working on it though. I am a doula! Haven't taken a birth lately, I am in school. I have many ideas for when I am finally succesful getting pg, I hope I am able to fulfill them all. :-)

I agree that the santorum situation was unusual, odd even for our culture; I just don't want to judge since I haven't been thru the same thing, and hope I never do. We can certainly agree to disagree on this, I just wanted to put a different perspective on things out there.

[fleabert]

59. I think the term 'ghoulish' is insensitive to those that might choose

this path for their grief process.

I won't judge.

I bet most of the time spent with the baby was filled with tears, and not the type of cuddling that we typically think of with a new baby. I know families that have done the same thing, just at the hospital. It is encouraged by sensitive nurses and birth professionals that the family spend time with the baby if they want to, it is healthy.

I think it is UN-usual that people talk about it when they do it, because they are afraid of the reactions and judgements of others.

[arwalden]

62. Kissing? Photos? Lullabies?

I'm surprised that they didn't play pat-a-cake and peek-a-boo.

Santorum is a ghoul.

[fleabert]

64. I agree that Santorum is a ghoul, but not because of this.

singing and touching a stillborn baby is not abnormal. Neither are pictures.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyloss/sbsurvivingemotionally.html

Saying Hello, Goodbye, and Making Memories:

After the tests are completed, you will have the usually have the choice to spend time alone with your baby. You can find comfort in looking at, touching, and talking to your baby. Most parents find it helpful to make memories of this precious time that will last a lifetime. Here are a few ways you can make memories with your baby:

* You can give your baby a bath and dress them in a special outfit. Before leaving the hospital you can take the booty or hat to have as a keepsake.
* You can take pictures of your baby.
* The hospital staff can give you handprints and or footprints.
* You may want to take a lock of your baby’s hair.
* It may seem odd at first but you can read a story or sing a lullaby to your baby.
* If you would like, the nurse can record your baby’s measurements.
* You probably have also named your baby by now. Be sure to tell the hospital staff as soon as possible so all documents can have your baby’s name listed.
* You can have your baby christened or blessed while in the hospital.
* A baptism certificate will also be given to you to keep.

You will be able to spend as much time as you need with your baby, but at some point you will need to say goodbye. This will probably be one of the most challenging things to do because it is so final. Allow yourself to cry; expressing emotion is natural in the grieving process. Having the keepsakes will remind you that a part of your baby will always be with you.

[fortyfeetunder]

71. I agree, this incident is not worth debating.

I can't judge how people mourn -- having grown up with relatives in the funeral business, and having assisted in a casket prep, it's not a big deal.

I don't think what Santorum and his wife did was morbid. That type of thing used to happened before the funeral home business was institutionalized.

This link from Fleabert is how some people observe the death of a stillborn.

Instead, take the energy from debating this non-topic to nail Santorum on that book he wrote and the other crazy things he's done.

[fleabert]

96. thanks, well put, and that you are close to the 'death biz' I appreciate

the support of my perspective. I am in the 'birth biz' and this is so not a big deal, imo.

[arwalden]

80. He's An Arrogant Ghoul For Making His Other Children ...

... interact with a corpse. It provides great insight to how his brain works. Frightening.

[fleabert]

100. well, if he forced them to view or touch the baby that is inappropriate,

but having attended home births where kids of all ages were present, I can attest to the fact that kids are very accepting and curious about birth and death. I have had the same reaction said about kids seeing a birth, when in reality, they did wonderfully and loved it. With preparation, education, and compassion, I can see how this might have been a very positive experience for his children. It gives closure to an event that usually ends in joy, not heartbreak. I think we have to give people some latitude when it comes to grief.

if it were my kids, I would make the call if they would be okay with it, I wouldn't want someone else making that decision.

[fortyfeetunder]

140. That's right, the key word is "forced"

What we don't know is how aware the children were of the pregnancy. If they had been part of the pregnancy and were anticipating the birth of the baby, then they might have some curiosity regarding what happened to the baby.

If the kids were forced to deal with it, then that is a whole 'nother story altogether.

[LynneSin]

77. I believe taking the dead fetus home isn't a normal form of grieving

This isn't grandmother or even a sibling who made it to full turn. This is a FETUS and I think the method of grieving is a little warped and yes ghoulish.

Also, dead bodies start to decompose which is why they are stored on ice and then embalmed. Now I know there are those who think embalming is a little ghoulish but so is a rotting corpse. The article said the dead fetus was wrapped in a blanket, so I don't know, I think I'd be a little bit creeped out touching this rotting thing and yes, it would probably scar me a bit too.

I think if Rick wanted a way to have him & his family say goodbye to their lost child, the could have setup a private moment in a funeral home or even in the hospital. Bringing a rotting fetus corpse home isn't normal and having the kids touch & cuddle it is just warped

[Maddy McCall]

90. No. It's not.

I've had miscarriages and have friends who have been through it, too. None of them did the funeral thingy (none of the fetuses were near full-term) and the OBs certainly didn't suggest taking the fetuses home.

It's sick on so many levels.

[fleabert]

106. okay.

a very close family member of mine lost her baby at five months gestation to a chromosomal defect. she is staunchly pro-choice. they dressed the baby, talked to the baby, wrote a letter to the baby, and cried with the baby. They spent a few hours with her after the birth (the nurses took the baby and cleaned her up after the birth, which occured thru spontaneous labor after the baby died in-utero).

I really don't see the difference in doing it at home or at a hospital, except that at home is more private. Perhaps they didn't want to have their kids come to the hospital, and the kids expressed a desire to see the baby? We don't know what spurred the decision, so why should we judge? It takes time for a body to decompose, and a few hours would not be that bad in terms of decomposition, especially if the baby died shortly before or after the birth.

Perhaps my acceptance comes from attending home births? I think birth and death belong at home, more so than at a hospital or a funeral home. It is just more peaceful and respectful, IME.

a 40 week gestation and a 20 gestation fetus are both called that- fetuses, would you feel the same way if it was full term?

(and for the record, I am also staunchly pro-choice)

[Maddy McCall]

87. I had three second-trimester miscarriages.

Never crossed my mind to take the fetus home with me. The doctor never even recommended that I do so, or asked me if I desired to do so.

All this fetus attachment scares me. Really. What sickos.

[skygazer]

120. But that's YOU, Maddy

Everyone grieves differently.

"Fetus attachment" - well, yeah. My three children were very real to me while they were still in the womb. I don't know how I would have reacted had I lost them because thankfully I didn't but they were not simply a fetuses to me - they were my babies.

I just don't find it a "sick" thing to do. I will not judge someone for choosing to do this.

[Maddy McCall]

138. Have you ever had a miscarriage?

People with histories of miscarriage tend to rationalize in ways that save their sanity. Unless you've been through it, you can never understand. The only people I've found who do understand are other women who have had miscarriages.

Mine were babies to me, too. Please don't insinuate that I didn't think that they were.

[SmokingJacket]

50. I'd rather judge him on his record than his style of mourning.

Not having gone through that experience, I don't know how weird it is. I mean, it seems weird to me, but... it doesn't really hurt anyone, and might be healthier for the kids than the denial-state that a lot of kids go through in similar situations. I mean, it might be. I'm no shrink. I don't think I'd do it that way, but who knows. The emotions and hormones go wild around childbirth/pregnancy.

I once stumbled upon a website of pictures of stillborn babies. YIPES! Freaked me WAY the hell out, but I have to assume the parents found some comfort in it.

[DS1]

61. Nobody on this messageboard is in a position to pass judgement on this

It happens more often than you all might think, and STFU just doens't cut it here.

[fleabert]

66. you are always able to say it so directly.

I agree, and said so in so many more words.

[LynneSin]

79. So you're saying if we want to bring dead grandma home...

...wrapped in a blanket for our family to say its goodbyes the hospital would allow it

:shrug:

I think there are laws out there that probably would prevent this. If a democrat had done something as bizarro as this I'm sure that person would have been raked over the media as being ghoulish and sick

[supernova]

85. Not so long ago it was quite natural to die at home

And with hospice care it is happening again. I held my mother's hand when she died. She was at her home surrounded by her children and familiar surroundings. None of us would have had it any other way.

The coroner doesn't have to come immediately after the heart stops beating. You can sit with them, hold them, cry with them one last time.

[LynneSin]

89. Now subsitute dead fetus for dead grandmother

this isn't normal, the child isn't even devoloped fully. And the fetus wasn't at home when it happened - they were at the hospital. They could have done it there

[supernova]

91. Same principle

I disagree with you, Lynn. Do you have much experience with death in general? You act as if you don't.

Women gave birth at home too. Where do you think the foetus went then? You saw it then too. That's why so much heirloom bedroom furniture is cherished: people died in it, made love it in, were born in it.

Are we really so removed from the facts (more than sex) of life anymore?

[LynneSin]

104. Well, I suppose losing my father at a young age probably doesn't count...

..I think we've all dealt with death in our own level and forcing young children to do something ghoulish is absolutely wrong. My family had it's time to grieve over the lost of my father in a respectable setting. He wasn't drug home in a blanket to allow us to cuddle him. That's just repulsively wrong.

As for death being handled in the home, yes you're right it was. But even then it was done in tasteful manners, not in this sick warped manner of what the Santorums did.

And btw, nobody offered me a book deal to write about my dad's death yet Mrs. Santorum made a pretty penny off of it.

[supernova]

113. No, it counts

And I'm sorry for your loss.

But really, you have no idea if the Santorum children were "forced" or not. You don't know how they feel about it.

Personally, I think very young children should be given the opportunity to say whether or not they want to see the body. And no, I wouldn't classify simply seeing a body as "ghoulish." It's part of life, too.

[LynneSin]

126. This is 1996 - I doubt these kids were much older that 5

so I highly doubt the had much choice in the matter

[fleabert]

116. I think we are in the minority here...

sad to say.

[supernova]

117. I know

It's kinda sad really. :-(

[arwalden]

98. Perhaps It Was All Political Theatrics...

What if his wife had had miscarriage when the "baby" was the size of a peanut?

Since they continually argue that even before the fertilized egg splits for the first time, that is a "baby"... wouldn't it also make sense for him to bring home a gelatinous sanguine mess for everyone to coddle and pose for photos with?

What kind of GHOUL would use a dead fetus as a POLITICAL PROP in his staged THEATRICS?

[supernova]

101. There I would have to agree with you, allen

A private tragedy and one's reponse to it is one thing, but to use it as a political prop... that deserves all the vitriol one can through at it.

[SarahB]

99. That's where the fetus/child thing gets tricky.

When you have a fetus/baby growing inside you that's wanted and conceived in an act with someone you love, you start to bond. You have feelings. I'm very pro-choice, but I know what this means on a deep and personal level to have a child and to lose a child as well.

I wouldn't make the same choice myself and it's certainly not what I'm used to, but on some level I empathize a little. Pain is pain is pain.

[fleabert]

86. from wikipedia:

In modern use, the parlour is a formal sitting room in a large house or mansion. In the late nineteenth century, the body of a member of the houeshold who had recently deceased would be laid out in the parlour while funeral preparations were made. In more modest homes, the parlour has largely been replaced by the living room as a result of a twentieth-century effort by architects and builders to strip the parlour of its burial and mourning associations.

I just don't see what the big deal is with a dead body being in a house. I wouldn't judge if someone wanted to have a viewing at their own home. I don't personally want to do it, but I don't have a problem with someone else doing it.

I think the family should be able to have that option if they want to, why should the hospital have any say in the matter, if a funeral home is involved in the moving of the body from location to location to burial place?

[supernova]

93. THanks, I didn't know that

people started to associate "parlour" with "wake room." That makes sense.

Still, I think today, we have an articifical sense of death now.

[DS1]

102. Stop being ridiculous

It's not that bizarro in the sense that it's more common than you think, and your Bates Motel reference just fell through the floor.

If someone has to go through a still-born, they can grieve just about any damn way they want. If that includes spending just a small amount of time as a 'family' then so be it. Are you next going to go after the cultures that bury their dead by places the corpses on pillars until the birds have picked them clean?

[dhinojosa]

107. There is more to this than just going and grieving at home...

it is a little bit crazy to bring a fetus over and cuddle the fetus and sing to it. Sure you can do whatever you want, but WOW!

[DS1]

110. Different strokes

It's their kid, it was the sudden void of expecting a new family member who was not going to be one. It wasn't a relative going to the hospital and being given 4 months to live, relative to that is was someone snapping his fingers and saying "Hey look, your baby's dead". There's no buildup, it just happens.

[fleabert]

114. actually, it's recommended to spend time with them...

from this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3765325&mesg_id=3766005

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyloss/sbsurviv...

Saying Hello, Goodbye, and Making Memories:

After the tests are completed, you will have the usually have the choice to spend time alone with your baby. You can find comfort in looking at, touching, and talking to your baby. Most parents find it helpful to make memories of this precious time that will last a lifetime. Here are a few ways you can make memories with your baby:

* You can give your baby a bath and dress them in a special outfit. Before leaving the hospital you can take the booty or hat to have as a keepsake.
* You can take pictures of your baby.
* The hospital staff can give you handprints and or footprints.
* You may want to take a lock of your baby’s hair.
* It may seem odd at first but you can read a story or sing a lullaby to your baby.
* If you would like, the nurse can record your baby’s measurements.
* You probably have also named your baby by now. Be sure to tell the hospital staff as soon as possible so all documents can have your baby’s name listed.
* You can have your baby christened or blessed while in the hospital.
* A baptism certificate will also be given to you to keep.

You will be able to spend as much time as you need with your baby, but at some point you will need to say goodbye. This will probably be one of the most challenging things to do because it is so final. Allow yourself to cry; expressing emotion is natural in the grieving process. Having the keepsakes will remind you that a part of your baby will always be with y

[supernova]

109. I think I like Hindu death rituals best

You carry the body to be put on a funeral pyer by the Ganges. Then, I guess your ashes are spread over the water? The family prepares the body, bathes it and dresses it. You're not sent to strangers to have them perform that function.

[DS1]

112. Oh, how GOULISH!

YOU TOUCH DEAD PEOPLE!

:sarcasm:

[supernova]

123. Yes, I am a complete Ghoul

[undeterred]

75. I can't judge him for doing that

Death is handled in so many different ways by different people and cultures, and frankly I've always found embalming and viewing a little weird. The first dead body I saw was my aunt when I was 8, and she had wasted away and died of cancer weighing about 60 lbs. Her face was made up and somebody said "She's as beautiful as she was on the day of her wedding" which I thought meant she was a ghoulish bride.

My father died in an emergency room and my siblings and mother got to see him there, but I did not. I would much rather have seen him in the ER or even if he had died at home, than say goodbye to him all made up and wearing a suit in a wooden box.

What Santorum did is odd, but I don't think its horrible. People don't always think clearly at the time of a loss like that.

[supernova]

76. This isn't something to rake him over the coals for

They lost a child they thought they were going to have. That's a loss that must be grieved, just as you would with any grown member of the family. Now I will take issue with making a publicity stunt of it to elicit sympathy from the RtL crowd. NEVERTHELESS,

What's so wierd about spending time with the body? It's just a body. We in this culture are way too removed from death. The minute the person dies we hand the body over to some stranger to be cared for, like we kick a lump of coal to the curb. They're not trash; they're the people we loved. Just FYI - the body doesn't immediately turn all oogie and decompose on you. There is a little time.

Look, there are plenty of things to pick at Santorum for: his beliefs, his political positions, the mindset he thinks he represents. As far as that goes, have at it.

But, those of you picking on him for this are displaying your discomfort with death, a natural process. Everyone has to grieve in their own way; this was theirs.

[Dastard Stepchild]

81. People grieve their losses in many ways....

I know that in some (many?) hospitals, families are given time and space to touch, to hold and to embrace their departed loved ones. He bundled up his baby and took the baby home with him, but I am guessing the sentiment behind it was similar.

Were a loved one of mine to die, I would still desire to kiss and hug them goodbye one last time. I don't know that I would ever remove the person from the hospital, drive it home, and then do this, but I would want time alone with my dearly departed.

[DemGirl7]

84. I really sick of hearing this story....

I've heard it about 10 times now, it's creepy, and nauseating(:puke: :puke: :puke:). I think everyone has gotten the main point of the story, which is that Rick Santorum is insane, and needs alot of help, mentally. :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[sakabatou]

92. Ewww...

Ewwwww... EWWWWW!

[rug]

97. So what?

The five of them were expecting a baby. The baby didn't live. They acknowledged it in their own way.

This is one of the few human events that demand you mind your own business.

[DS1]

105. It's threads like this which turn this place from

democraticunderground.com to republicangoldmine.com

You can have your thoughts about it either way, but it's a zero sum game/conversation no matter HOW you look at it.

Think long range for once.

[supernova]

119. I agree with you

Death is a topic that demands an individual response. There really is no "proper" way or right or wrong way to grieve. It's very personal.

[fleabert]

129. once again...

[CanuckAmok]

124. Sheesh, hasn't he heard of KFC?!

eww!

[DS1]

128. Well

at least he didn't go to Wendy's and order chili

^

[barb162]

125. I never heard that before

[madeline_con]

130. Permanently scar by exposure to the reality of death?

I'll have to disagree on this one. Death is part of the "circle of life" if you will.

I can't see how saying goodbye in their own private home using funeral rites they felt appropriate would scar the kids.

[fleabert]

131. I thnk this link is very important to put out there in this thread...

sorry if I already posted it to you specifially LynneSin, don't mean to try and antagonize...

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyloss/sbsurviv...

Saying Hello, Goodbye, and Making Memories:

After the tests are completed, you will have the usually have the choice to spend time alone with your baby. You can find comfort in looking at, touching, and talking to your baby. Most parents find it helpful to make memories of this precious time that will last a lifetime. Here are a few ways you can make memories with your baby:

* You can give your baby a bath and dress them in a special outfit. Before leaving the hospital you can take the booty or hat to have as a keepsake.
* You can take pictures of your baby.
* The hospital staff can give you handprints and or footprints.
* You may want to take a lock of your baby’s hair.
* It may seem odd at first but you can read a story or sing a lullaby to your baby.
* If you would like, the nurse can record your baby’s measurements.
* You probably have also named your baby by now. Be sure to tell the hospital staff as soon as possible so all documents can have your baby’s name listed.
* You can have your baby christened or blessed while in the hospital.
* A baptism certificate will also be given to you to keep.

You will be able to spend as much time as you need with your baby, but at some point you will need to say goodbye. This will probably be one of the most challenging things to do because it is so final. Allow yourself to cry; expressing emotion is natural in the grieving process. Having the keepsakes will remind you that a part of your baby will always be with you.

[deadparrot]

132. Frankly, there's so many more relevant reasons to loath Santorum...

Would I do what he did? Probably not. But hey, I'm an 18 year old girl. People handle death differently, and I don't think it's fair to judge parents who suddenly, and unexpectedly, lost a child. They probably weren't thinking clearly, and even if they were, who am I to judge?

I suppose the most important thing is the other childrens' well-being. If the kids grow up without any psychological damage from the experience (other than living with Santorum and his wife), I really don't care what people do. Whatever gets them through the day.

Now, if the family was exploiting their child's death for political gain, then that's unforgiveable. But again, I'm hesitant to judge because I have so little information.

[JimmyJazz]

136. A truly religious person would not believe that the body

equates with the soul. They would not have a dead body brought to their home because they would believe that the body is only the vessel. They wouldn't cuddle a dead person if they truly thought that person was in a better place.

I know I'm not saying this right, but it's how I feel.

[friesianrider]

137. Creepy, and isn't that illegal?

How can they take a corpse out of the hospital considering they are not a funeral home or something...isn't that illegal? You can't just have your grandfather die and say "thanks Doc, we're going to take him home for a few hours to kiss and snuggle with him - we'll have him back by 11."

I'm sorry, but that is friggin' WEIRD.

[FourStarDemocrat]

141. I think doing something like this can have a very bad affect on the kids..

In my experience raising children, the concept of death is something pretty much abstract until they are about 6-7, and they really don't come to accept it as a real possibility until after age 7.

My older son, who has always been a very bright, inquisitive boy who loves life started a discussion with me at the age of 5 1/2 or so about death, asking what it was, when it happens, etc. When I answered his questions and he began to understand that death is "final" (at least for the body/mind we have now, he started freaking out, having a crying fit for about 10 minutes. He was even more upset at the possibility of losing his parents someday than his own death. We finally calmed him down by comforting him and saying various things, such as expaining about how the soul lives on, and also telling him a little white lie, that most people live to be at least 100 years old so we all have a very, very long time to live.

I observed that after ages 7 or 8 my son became a lot less anxious about the concept of death, understanding that it's part of the cycle of life. I think that if I were to bring him to someone's wake or funeral after age seven he would understand and not have the kind of anxiety attack that he had about death a couple of years earlier. However, I think that if I were to bring home a stillborn fetus to 'cuddle and say goodbye to" when he was 5 and a half- roughly the same age as Rick Santorum's other kids, we could have very well done a great deal of emotional harm to him at the time giving him a 'crash course' in 'death' so to speak. So, besides this practice of Santorum and his wife being bizarre, I think it could very well have been psychologically harmful to their children.