Any Gay Rights Savvy DUer

[suigeneris]

want to debate a right-wing gay on another board? The guy's pretty smart.

[Maven]

1. bring it on

Where?

[suigeneris]

2. Here

Scroll down to Trent
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=349300#post349300

[suigeneris]

3. Thanks, BTW nt

[Maven]

4. Sure

His argument is basically that we should desert the Democratic Party until they stop taking us for granted. I don't disagree that many Dems have taken our support for granted but his use of statistics is entirely misleading since most of the amendments he's talking about were passed by Republican majorities.

Interestingly, he's not against marriage equality--he's just totally deluded as far as who is responsible for blocking it.

[sui generis]

5. way to go "Denny"

"But until an organized effort is undertaken to show them how much the loss of our votes would mean, you're just a lone and unproductively angry voice in the wilderness, and aiding our enemies to boot."

That's the real deal - this Trent guy just laid out a bunch of assertions, expected everyone to buy into the underlying unqualified assumptions, and then started that most typical of right wing interaction: the "cut and paste" of a partial quote followed by uncontrollable verbal diarrhea.

It's been my experience that gays who play with republicans have all kinds of issues, most prominent of which is delusion in all its nasty forms. It doesn't make them "bad" gays, just poor judges of character. I wouldn't place any value on anything a Log Cabin Republican (or any other kind of gay republican) has to say, and since I know more than a handful of them from my circle our conversations are necessarily limited to non-political topics.

[suigeneris]

7. Funny coincidence on our names.

I've seen you here before but we've never talked :D

[sui generis]

12. I think we've confused lots of people -

but the funniest thing is that by definition no longer sui generis

oh well - sorry if I've gotten some screamers sending you hate mail thinking it was me ;)

[suigeneris]

9. Denny is terrific.

Read back up the thread and you'll enjoy his mind.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

6. He definitely has issues, but I agree with him on several points,

and saying that doesn't make me feel witty or anything. Sad, really, since it reminds me that I and my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters don't have adequate representation.

For example, he points out the ugliness of the many, MANY heterosexual Democrats who scapegoat gays by claiming that the gay marriage issue is the reason Kerry lost (and by doing so imply that gays are wrong/stupid/selfish to demand their rights, and should stop), and then those same heterosexuals commiserrate with each other that gays and lesbians are a captive demographic, almost as though they are slaves to the Democratic Party, and "where else are they going to go - ha, ha, ha - let them eat cake." And when it turns out that gays and lesbians didn't vote for Kerry in a proportion much larger than those who voted for Gore, those same bigoted heteros are baffled. Duh.

It hurts to be told "let them eat cake," and it turns people off. Who knows, maybe the resulting reduced contributions, votes and get-out-the-vote initatives will translate into more sweeping Democratic wins?

He also brings up the issue of Clinton's sell-out of the gay community with his politically expedient "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and the fact that it passed during a time when Democrats controlled both houses of congress. And that any gay man who defends such homophobia needs their heads examined. He's not going to defend it, and neither will I, frankly. Bill Clinton is no gay hero. It remains to be seen how good a friend Hilary is.

I think you're asking the wrong people about this guy, because as I see it, he's right. In fact, one of the reasons I voted for Bush in 2000 was because Dems and Pukes were never very different, and certainly Dems record on gay rights could be a lot better.

That said, that doesn't mean voting puke is the "only alternative." That's biting off your nose to spite your face, if the primary reason is because you're taken for granted by Dems.

[suigeneris]

8. I'm disappointed.

Nobody here has debated this guy or challenged his "facts." There they sit undisputed. Is he correct?

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

10. "Is he correct?" Yes, about 75 - 80%.

except for the last bit about coming out won't change anything. It can and does, but not in all cases. He must be thinking of Phyllis Schlafly's son or Mary Cheney.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

11. When dems stop lecturing that gays must stop demanding equal rights, then

I think we'll be able to see progress. And I do think that progress has been made somewhat, but we still see too many dems floundering on gay rights, for example, John Kerry and his obnoxious statements rejecting the MA dem platform backing gay marriage AND equally important his FAILURE to retract that statement.

Face it, there's a lot of homophobia in the Dem Party. There's a lot more in the puke party, granted.

[sui generis]

13. a most telling example was right here on DU

also the first twenty times I got deleted by the mods

Someone ran a poll saying "which minority rights would you be willing to give up to secure a democratic victory"

. . . and something like 35% voted to give up "gay" rights.

Anyway, our fault somewhat for framing things as "gay" rights. This has nothing to do with "gay"ness. Sexual orientation is something that EVERYBODY has, and no law for or against discrimination anywhere refers to "gay"; only to "same sex" and "sexual orientation".

The real framework is that you can be fired for being straight and you won't be able to collect unemployment or retirement. You can be fired for being straight, by your straight boss, especially if he doesn't like your skin color or religion. Wake up America. That's what protecting your sexual orientation means.

Everything else is presumed, until they can put it on your driver's license, like your eye color, and that will be a dark day indeed.

[Misunderestimator]

14. Very good point... sexual orientation and discrimination based on it...

is a double-edged sword. No one is protected if we aren't.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

15. Excellent points.

I hope when things start to heat up again, and the pukes try to again exploit homophobia to their advantage, that dems decline to take the bait and can turn it around and successfully paint the pukes as the gaybashers they are.

[suigeneris]

16. Is there widespread agreement here that this guy is largely correct?

I would like it if a homosexual who agrees with the proposition that Democrats have done little or nothing to advance equality for homosexuals would start a thread about this topic in GDP so we can get some comment from a lot of folks.

I would prefer not to start it myself because I wouldn't want to phrase or frame the issue incorrectly, but I'll do so if someone here doesn't want to.

Please be kind enough to place a link in this thread to the new one if you start it.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

17. I'll do it - you mean, just a general question, or

a link to your ariane board discussion?

[suigeneris]

18. Use your own judgment and suit yourself.

Thanks.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

19. Being discussed in GDP here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1982234