"I already know my future plans."

[Brewman_Jax]

said the waitress at one of my hangouts. I thought about putting this in GD, but I thought I'd start here first.

After seeing the vacation photo albums, the conversation turned to college. My brother and I are Ga. Tech grads. We asked our waitress, Melissa (who's 19), where she was going to school. My comments in italics.

"I'm not going to school. My fiance is going to Southern Poly (Southern Polytechnic State U. in Marietta, GA). He hated Ga. Tech (don't worry, this is a normal emotional reaction) and said that Southern Poly is just as good and cheaper than Tech. (That's standard sour grapes, but the cost part is true. Let's be for real, Georgia Tech on a resume will get more attention than Southern Poly, regardless of my personal bias.)"

"You're not supposed to like Tech," replied my brother, "you're supposed to get through it and graduate."

"Do you know what you want to do?" I asked.

"I'm going to stay home and have babies. I going to have five," answered Melissa.

"I hope you've discussed that number with your fiance," I said. "Have you guys set a date?"

"After he graduates. He's got about 3 years to go," said Melissa.

We banter a little more, but I highlighted the important part. She had the ring on her finger and stars in her eyes. I've seen the result of being unable and unprepared to deal with a cold world when fairy tale Plan A falls in the crapper, and there's no Plan B--my mother, but that's another story.

Obviously, the desire to be a stay-home mother is still present. They may be married for the next 50 years, or they may not make it to the wedding. :shrug: Either way, I can't see not being able to live life by yourself when needed. People, esp. those who are supposed to care, have that nasty ability to let you down when you need them. That's one hell of a leap of faith to bank your future on.

Submitted for your consideration.

[Modem Butterfly]

1. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

And dumb.

Anyone, male or female, who doesn't realize they need to be able to take care of themselves and stand on their own two feet will find out the hard way. Maybe he'll leave her, maybe he'll die, maybe he'll lose his job, maybe he'll lose the ability to work, maybe she'll just get sick of his ass. At some point, you need to be able to stand up and take care of yourself or else.

Didn't "Southern Polytechnic" used to be called Chattoahoochee Tech?

I was a technical recruiter for years before the recession. Schooling means less than experience, but all things being equal, Tech is about as good as it gets here in GA, and I'm not talking Southern Poly/Chattahoochees or Albany Technical College.

[Brewman_Jax]

2. G'day, Modem Butterfly

:hi:

Last question first: Chattahoochee Tech and Southern Poly are 2 separate schools. Southern Poly used to be Southern Tech and a part of Ga. Tech 'til 1980.

I agree wholeheartedly. I've seen the depression, helplessness, and trapped feelings when couples stay together when one (usually the mother) has limited education and limited options, or they do it "for the kids."

I've seen the freedom and strength when divorce is an option and the mother is educated and can take care of herself and the kids. The importance of education is to have options.

[hfojvt]

12. not even one "stupid" or a "naive" or "hopelessly optimistic"?

You are a little bit pessimistic there. "Will" find out the hard way? You have a list of maybes, and there is no dispute with them, but "maybe not" is also possible. She is actually "planning" to do what my mom did when she got married in 1957. She quit her job (maybe because of the move and nepotism issues (they both worked for the government before marriage) and had five babies. My dad did not leave her, nor did he die, nor did he lose his job, nor did he lose the ability to work, and neither did she get "sick of his a$$". Of course they lived frugally and those were better times - wage and benefits-wise.
In many of those cases, there are other options as well. If he loses his job, they can scrape by on unemployment until he finds another one. If he becomes disabled, then they will get disability money (which is not very much). If he dies, she will get life insurance money. If he leaves her, or she gets sick of him, then there is alimony and child support. She can work as a waitress, which often pays as well as any job even a college graduate can get. If she can type reasonably fast, then there are often openings for admin assistants. My point being that college isn't a necessity for self-support. It certainly has not done a tanj thing for me, money-wise.

[fudge stripe cookays]

16. With things the way they are right now...

Read:

Astronomical unemployment rates, the war (possible draft), women possibly seeing our birth control rights go out the window (what if he leaves her or dies while she's pregnant?), and current divorce rates (especially for people under 25), I agree with the original poster.

You may call us pessimistic, but I believe in these days, it's called realistic.

Good for your mom, but things (and people) have changed a lot since the good old days.

This girl is an idiot. You may not think you need college these days, but you're sure limiting your options without it.
FSC

[hfojvt]

19. again with the pessimism

A. The unemployment rate was 5.5% in 1955. That is comparable to today. You may say that we now have many more discouraged and disabled workers and so our rate is now higher, but labor force participation was much lower back then.
B. There were 381,000 divorces in 1957 compared to 1.5 million marriages. However, the divorce rate grew also in the 1960s as many of those people married in 1957 got divorced. In any case, there is no divorce rate which makes divorce inevitable.

I do not think it is realistic to list a bunch of bad things which may happen and imply that one of them WILL happen. It may be prudent to prepare for some bad things, but I am not sure that college would be the best preparation. A savings account might be better, and college can sometimes saddle a person with debt.

I have not experience a surfeit of options due to my seven years of college, so color me cynical about that.

[fudge stripe cookays]

23. I ALWAYS prepare for the worst case scenario.

It has served me well throughout my life.

YOU continue calling it pessimism. I will continue to call it realism despite your Pollyanna attitude. I think there's a difference between being optimistic and being stupid.

Even if you don't think your college education helped you with options, it undoubtedy helped you become a more educated, well rounded person. Even a few classes at a community college can help someone educate themselves.

I believe anyone who voluntarily denies themself the growth opportunity that IS college is a fool. Nothing will ever change my opinion, and that includes a bunch of statistics I didn't even read.

FSC

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Sooner or later, you have to be able to stand on your own

You have a list of maybes, and there is no dispute with them, but "maybe not" is also possible.

Yeah. And she could win the lottery or get abducted by purple-headed people eaters. Sometimes, people get very, very lucky. But most of the time they don't.

If he loses his job, they can scrape by on unemployment until he finds another one.

Assuming he can get unemployment, which is far from a certainty, it is usually not enough to support even one adult and usually has a short time limit.

If he becomes disabled, then they will get disability money (which is not very much).

Actually, that's pretty unlikely. Most folks don't have much, if any insurance, and most state disability programs are all but maxed out. SSI can be extremely difficult to get. Meanwhile, the kids have to eat...

If he dies, she will get life insurance money.

If he's insured. Most folks aren't. And this hinges on the manner o his death as well.

If he leaves her, or she gets sick of him, then there is alimony and child support.

:rofl:

She can work as a waitress, which often pays as well as any job even a college graduate can get.

:rofl:

Very few service-type jobs pay close to a living wage for someone with a family. Those jobs are found at very high-end restaurants and require a lot of experience and a fair bit of luck to land.

If she can type reasonably fast, then there are often openings for admin assistants.

WPM isn't really a factor anymore in the computer age. And even if it were, where would she get that experience?

BTW, I was a headhunter for 10 years and I've been an HR Manager for three. Administrative Assistants are NOT entry-level jobs. These people usually have education and a good bit of business experience to back them up.

My point being that college isn't a necessity for self-support.

Not only is she not planning to get an education, she isn't planning on getting any work experience, beyond waitressing. She is hobbling herself. People do get lucky, but allowing opportunity to pass you by while you depend on your luck is foolish.

[hfojvt]

30. well at least in college, you learn how to make a logical argument

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That should answer most of your points.

You compare staying married and avoiding major disease and disabling injuries to winning the lottery. Yet it seems to be the norm in all of my aunts and uncles families and my siblings and cousins, and alot of my classmates.

When I went to high school, most people took typing as a class in their sophomore year.

"Very few service-type jobs pay close to a living wage for someone with a family."

My point being that I have not one, but two university degrees and I have often made less than a "living wage" while many people with no college degrees are making more. Where I came from, waitressing paid as good, or better, as most of the local factory jobs.

[Modem Butterfly]

31. Yeah, I didn't think so

You compare staying married and avoiding major disease and disabling injuries to winning the lottery.

I compare being able to stay married and never having need for an education or a job to winning the lottery. You might think it's the norm, but it simply isn't.

When I went to high school, most people took typing as a class in their sophomore year.

Yeah, me too. They don't do that any more though.

My point being that I have not one, but two university degrees and I have often made less than a "living wage" while many people with no college degrees are making more.

That's not the norm, either.

Where I came from, waitressing paid as good, or better, as most of the local factory jobs.

Yeah, me too. Unfortunately, those folks were also getting government surplus food (the dreaded "Government Cheese"). I moved.

[StuckinBFE]

3. I would tell your friend that a key to a good marrage is

a college education for the women. I don't have a link but I remember reading this just a short while ago, I will try to find a link.

[Brewman_Jax]

4. I didn't know that

but it makes sense. I tell them if you aren't gonna go to Ga. Tech (my personal preference, natch! ), go to college somewhere--even UGA will do. Have options for the future so that you can do more than wait tables. Get your degree and run the restaurant.

[Susang]

28. I've run several restaurants

And you certainly don't need a degree to do that. One of the few careers where you can actually work your way up from the bottom. The best restaurant owners and managers are not college graduates, but have started out and been promoted from within the industry.

[Modem Butterfly]

32. She's not planning on doing that, though

Remember, she's not going to work once her man graduates Tech. So when she re-enters the workforce, she'll have to start over from the bottom with no education and experience that is likely outdated.

[Susang]

37. You're right, of course

I was just making a commentary about the restaurant business. ;-)

I've always appreciated that aspect of the business; that a busboy or waitress just starting out has the potential to run their own business one day and do it better than someone who's rich and had the benefit of an expensive education. I was lucky to be able to go to college (not that it helped my career that much!), but unfortunately, not everyone can afford it these days.

[fudge stripe cookays]

17. I saw that too!

They were using it to dispute some of the right wing logic about gay marriage ruining straight marriage.

But the truth was that uneducated partners (especially the women) were contributing a lot to it.

Educated women tend to stand up for themselves, have more pride, not put up with abuse, etc.

I think it was on the front page here about 2 or 3 weeks ago.
FSC

[Brewman_Jax]

5. kick

for the late morning crowd. :kick:

[supernova]

6. Ugh. It's really depressing this mentality

is still around.

Have we learned nothing since the late 60s?

Even in my grandmother's generation Pre WW1 and the Depression, women were encouraged to be able to do something for money, even when the norm was SAHM. The reson is, what if your spouse died or was unable to work, somehow? The family still needed money.

This kid is in for a very rude wakeup call.

[Brewman_Jax]

8. Good point

even then, options were severely limited for women. My mother was not encouraged, but her family was not terribly enlightened in that regard (from grandparents' house to husband's house to starting a family).

We're in 2005, and the fairy tale is exactly that--a fairy tale.

What does SAHM stand for? :shrug:

[supernova]

10. Stay At Home Mom

I've seen it in GD recently. :silly:

[Mutley]

7. If he leaves her, she always has waitressing to fall back on.

:eyes:

[Brewman_Jax]

9. That's true

and she's got experience. They're always looking for that, y'know.

[bleedingheart]

11. to be honest from my perspective she should just go ahead with her plan

1. She will end up married to this guy, have the 2-5 babies...(look for the number to reduce as the babes arrive)...and be happy.

2. He will dump her ass after he meets another woman he likes more (could be any reason) ...and she will then end up
a. latching on to another man
b. figuring out that she should do something for herself...

3. She will marry him, find out life isn't always running according to plan...and then make adjustments...


I do think it is a waste of money to go to college if you are not sure what you really want to do. It is way too expensive to go to college to get an MRS especially if you don't have any desire to work in that field. I know many men and women who got saddled with loan payments and later stated they wished they would have waited until they really knew what they wanted to do..

I also went to school with women (i am one by the way) who went through 4 years of engineering school with me at Pitt and then got married and never worked after school. Some found out the really hard way that their degree 12 years later isn't worth much unless they were actively pursuing their career and they are even further behind....same goes for guys who stay at home....

I also want to say that I am no expert and that people should be free to do what they want...

[Brewman_Jax]

15. Quite right

She's gonna do it, the wedding and the family thing. I didn't try to change her mind. My major point is that she's getting rid of her future options and banking that her fiance is The One. He may be, and they'll be married for 50 years with loads of grandkids in the future. Or she'll have to deal with above options #2 or #3, which are more likely. The Fates are not noted for their sense of humor.

I'd NEVER even suggest going to college for the MRS degree; it's too expensive and too uncertain for that. I know of those who have. I tell them to get their degrees, and have options for the future. Everyone needs to be able to look after themselves, whether they get married or not.

Either way, more power to 'em...

[Modem Butterfly]

21. Going back to school will be much harder with children

There is no time like the present for this woman. She will never again have as much energy, or freedom, as she does right now.


God, that's depressing.

[XemaSab]

13. I agree with your assessment

I think she sounds REALLY young and REALLY naive.

Maybe sometime between now and when he graduates she will realize that maybe this plan has some holes. Is she going to support him going to school by waitressing? I can see that being rude awakening number one, for starters.

[Nevernose]

14. I mostly have a problem w/ the phrase "future plans."

Well of course they're your plans for the future. It wouldn't make any sense to around planning for the past, would it?

[KG]

18. when you get older your future plans turn into 'past history'.

another annoying redudant phrase.

[pitohui]

22. i submit for your consideration

she'll always be able to wait tables

likely she always will

so what

everybody can't be a rambling wreck from georgia tech

[BeTheChange]

36. There is no shame in being a mother.. for pete's sake...

Maybe she is meant to be a mother of a few very beautiful children and he's gonna graduate from college and get some middle management job..

And they will have bbqs on the weekend and she might make jello molds and dress her children in saddle shoes..

And you know what? That is okay. We werent all made to climb a corporate ladder. And if any of a million horrible things happen then she will pick up and figure it out and go on.

Maybe she will write the next Harry Potter series.. or tend a garden. Or be a kiddie taxi. Why are any of these things worse then being a customer service rep for a company owned by some asshole who doesnt give you more then 10 days of vacation a year and could care less about who you are as a person?

[bicentennial_baby]

24. Is it any of your business?

Nope. And who are you to judge? Somedays I feel like I want to be a mommy and get married and all that crap...but 99% of the time I don't. To each woman her own.

[Brewman_Jax]

25. Thanks for playing

[bicentennial_baby]

26. No answer?

Figures... :eyes:

[Brewman_Jax]

27. Nope

if that's what you got out it, there's nothing more to say.

[kick-ass-bob]

29. So she just went to get an MRS. degree.

Unfortunately, there are women who think like this. My friend who graduated from Ole Miss, said this mindset was in a huge proportion of the female population there.

[Brewman_Jax]

33. She's not going at all

her fiance is.

[MissHoneychurch]

34. couple of years ago I was with my back then bf visiting his family

in Monroe, LA. I talked to the fiancee of one boy from the family. She was 19. I asked her what she was planning after school, "I don't know". I asked her if she wants to go to college. "Yes".
Me: "What do you wanna study"
Her: "I don't know"
Me: "What are you interested in?"
Her: "I don't know"
It went like that the whole time. In the end it came out that she wants to marry that boy and be a mother.

A sister of my bf was around that age also. She was pregnant. She had already a 5 year old girl she couldn't handle. In this 3 weeks I was there, she was in the hospital two times. First time because she was bleeding. The docs told her to drink a lot. The second time she had to go because - guess why - she was dehydrated. And she kept smoking pot. I couldn't understand it. As far as I know she got the baby and it was healthy. But still.

[Lars39]

35. She won't have enough credits for disability if she becomes disabled.

This is one of the little secrets of the Repub push for SAHMs that the women don't realize.
Have a car wreck, husband dies, she's severely injured and disabled...she applies for disability and gets NADA.

[Shell Beau]

38. When I have kids, I hope to be a stay-at-home mom, but

that doesn't mean I won't have the option to go to work if and when I want to.

[Modem Butterfly]

39. I just re-read your post

It sounds like your dad wasn't in the picture for your mom, yet two of her sons, you and your brother, both attended, and graduated, from Tech, no small achievement for anyone.

Your mother must be quite a lady.

[Brewman_Jax]

40. The not-so-good part

is that they're still married (44 yrs) on paper, but not happily--but that's another story. Dad's job was to go to work, bring home the money, and that's all. He didn't do any fathering. Yes, mom is quite a lady.