Political Correctness has gone too far!

[Sean Reynolds]

Fuck PC! It's been hijacked by extremists and now it's being used to ban things that shouldn't be banned.

As an Irish man, I'm offended by the term Fighting Irish. I think the NCAA should force Notre Dame to change their name!

As a man of the west I'm offended by the Oklahoma State Cowboys blatant mocking of true cowboys. I demand OSU change their name!

As a Catholic I'm offended by the term Demon Deacons! I demand that Wake Forst change their name!

Redskins? I understand. That's offensive and I've heard many Native Americans are offended by the term.

Indians? Sure. I'm guessing most Native Americans are offended by the name.

But Utes? Seminoles? Illini? I don't understand. Both the Utes and Seminoles have the blessing of each tribe. In fact a member of the Ute nation had this to say about the Utah Utes:

Irene Cuch, a tribal leader at the Unitah and Ouray Indian Reservation located about four hours east of Salt Lake City, said the decision should be theirs.
"A non-Indian organization should not be the one to make the decision. This should come from tribal leaders," Cuch said.

I couldn't have said it any better, Cuch!

The NCAA has gone TOO far. Political correctness has gone too far!

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. It's a fucking bizarre decision!

Though I can see why the powers that be made it the way they did - they didn't outright condemn or say that the schools HAVE to change their names; but made it impossible for the schools to win a championship if they don't.

Diplomatically and politically, it's a brilliant fucking move. They get to force the teams to change their names without actually forcing them to do so.

But I also agree that we have the problem at least with the Seminoles, who have the blessing of the Seminole tribe. To exclude them is now a very racist thing - it is to say to the seminoles (the tribe) that they are too ignorant to know that they are being misused and that the white man must step in to "protect" them.



On the other hand, I find your use of the name "Sean" to be offensive to those who choose COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE ALTERNATIVE spellings, like Shawn and Shaughn.

You racist bastard.

[petronius]

2. Demon Deacons always surprises me...

even as a severely lapsed Catholic, that name seems highly sacreligious, and I think I'd be pretty offended if I was an active Christian. Maybe not offended to the point of wanting a ban, but definitely to the knee-jerk-always-root-against level.

[tjwmason]

5. Are these American football team names?

If so despite being an active Catholic I have no problem with "Demon Deacons" - the very most it can raise from me is a wry smile.

I believe that when folk make a massive fuss about minor issues (in which I would count this, if I'm understanding properly), then when genuine issues arise many people get turned off because P.C. has been given such a bad name.

[petronius]

67. They are college team names...

Generally all the teams at a school will use the name, except that womens teams will be prefaced by "Lady" (e.g. LSU Tigers, LSU Lady Tigers).

You're right, it's not the biggest issue in the world, and it does go too far in cases. I don't have a problem when a team name is an actual tribe name, like Utes or Seminoles; I see that as celebrating the strength of that group, like Vikings or Vandals or somesuch. But Redskins is an ethnic slur, like gook or wop, for example, and should be changed.

As for the Demon Deacons, like I said I wouldn't demand a change, but it seems oxymoronic and doesn't relate to what a deacon actually is, so I would view it as inappropriate. (Unless Wake Forest is a Catholic school - I don't know - in which case they have more ownership of the term than I do and can insult themselves all they want...)

[Left Is Write]

43. The "Orofino Maniacs" gives me pause.

It's the high school team in Orofino, ID. The name gives me pause because there is a state mental hospital located in Orofino. I don't think the team name is appropriate.

[petronius]

89. I agree - that sounds pretty disrespectful, given the context...

[Jamastiene]

3. My mind is blown now.

I'm actually one of those who feels neutral unless it actually seems to be hurting a lot of underpriveledged people.

On the other hand, I am offended that ages ago when I was in high school, the team was called the Richmond Raiders, but the actual mascot was a pirate. The richer county to the north of us was already using "pirates". I might have gotten into it more if they had let my school's team be the "pirates" and not the "raiders".

Aside from that, I was offended when I went to the "Homecoming Parade" one year and they had a real dead deer on one of the floats because they were playing a neighboring county with a team called the "bucks" or something like that. I mean they could have faked it or just used the antlers or something. Something about a small child witnessing the sight of real blood dripping off the side of a float onto the street doesn't set well with me. Or I should say, it bothered me as a kid. I'm not totally anti-hunting (seems ok for food only in my personal beliefs although I don't hunt), I just don't understand the morbidity of displaying a dead animal just because of a football game. Maybe that's just my take only. I dunno...

[Qanisqineq]

4. As someone of Norwegian and Danish descent

I am offended by the Minnesota Vikings. :evilgrin:

[KitchenWitch]

10. LOL

Skol Vikings
Let's win this game
Skol Vikings
Honor your name
Go get that first down
Then get a Touchdown
Rock 'em Sock 'em
Fight Fight Fight Fight

Skol Vikings
Run up the score
You'll hear us yell for more
V - I - K - I - N - G - S
Skol Vikings Let's go!

[Qanisqineq]

11. lol

uff da! Hello! I see you are a Minnesotan. I am originally from North Dakota. :hi:

[KitchenWitch]

13. Yah sure You Betcha!

:hi:

Not a native Minnesoooohtan!

Early childhood in PA and NJ so I do not have the entire accent down pat LOL

[TheMightyFavog]

16. A more Accurate Minnesote Vikings song....

We're The Minnesota Vikings, Happy Schnapps Combo

We're the Minnesota Vikings, and we're just a pile of junk
We play in a dome they call the Humpty Dump
Win a few games, make the Playoffs, and we choke
The Minnesota Vikings, and you know that we're a joke

We joined the NFL back in 1960
We're gonna be a great team some day, you'll see
Just like the Packers, gonna win a Super Bowl
To be number one is our only goal

Now we've been there four times, but we never seem to win
And it's not good enough just to get in
We gotta win the big one, and we gotta do it now
We're never gonna do it 'cause we don't know how

We lost to Kansas City, Oakland, Pittsburgh, Miami, too
And if we played the Jets, you know we'd still lose
We been to four Super Bowls, and we lost four times
Being a bunch of chokers is our only crime

We're the Minnesota Vikings, and we're just a pile of junk
We play in a dome they call the Humpty Dump
Win a few games, make the Playoffs, and we choke
The Minnesota Vikings, and you know that we're a joke

Now the Super Bowl isn't the only time we choke
That's why everybody says we're a joke
In October 96 was our darkest day
We were in first place and we lost to Tampa Bay

And the Cowboys crushed us in the Playoffs that year
"You stink like Buffalo" is all that we hear
We've been to four Super Bowls, and we've lost four times
Some day we're going back there to lose number five

We're the Minnesota Vikings, and we're just a pile of junk
We play in a dome they call the Humpty Dump
Win a few games, make the Playoffs, and we choke
The Minnesota Vikings, and you know that we're a joke
The Minnesota Vikings, and you know we're gonna choke
The Minnesota Vikings, and you know...that...we're...a...joke

Yah we ain't never gonna be no good

Aw dat dome's fallin' apart again!

:evilgrin:

[KitchenWitch]

17. I would expect that coming from a Slacker fan!

[Left Is Write]

42. Mmhmmm.

It's starting already!

My kids got new Vikings jerseys while we were at MOA. The girl got Culpeper and the boy got Michael Bennett.

[Robeson]

104. Is that you, Brett Fah-vreh?....

[xmas74]

116. This Packer fan is cracking up at your song!

[sasquatch]

6. That's why you should name your teams after local plants like Ohio State

I doubt the Busckeye tree is offended BTW.

[WCGreen]

7. I hear the buckeye tribe is all upset

wiht Ohio State.....

And that Brutus is an abomination to Buckeye's everywhere

[sasquatch]

8. LOL, are they like the Ents of the LOTR movies?

[WCGreen]

9. Yes, by the time the get here.....

The 2087 season will be over....

So Fuck 'em....

Bring on the wolverines......

[GaYellowDawg]

12. It will never go too far for some.

The next thing you know, an animal activist group will decide that naming sports teams after "animo-beings" is offensive to them, and then the NCAA will move to ban those names.

Then, some group will get pissed on vegetables' behalf, become phytoactivists, and the NCAA will ban team names associated with plants.

Then the only things left will be inanimate objects and colors. Teams will be named "Rocks" and "Stones" and "Clouds" (but not "Sticks" as those could offend phyto-beings who don't want to be reminded that they lose limbs) and then we'll get inorganic activists who want to be geologically and atmospherically correct and the NCAA will ban those names.

Of course, then the move will be to name teams after celestial objects. You'll see "Stars" and "Quasars" and "Pulsars" but pretty soon some nutjob will file a class action suit against the NCAA because all of these stars and quasars colliding are fucking up her horoscope and the NCAA will decide that it's celestially correct and ban all names except colors and pronouns.

Right after that, someone will proclaim that all of these names are symbolically making sports too color-conscious, and the NCAA will not only ban team names based on colors but will ban team colors, period, in the interests of being spectrally correct. Athletes will have to play naked, but without pronouns, as all of the "me's" and "us's" and "we's" are exclusionary and could hurt someone's feelings.

Then, of course, the fundamentalists will go haywire over the nudity. The NCAA will take their complaints into consideration, along with complaints by some minor Greek political group that the tradition of playing naked is of strictly Greek heritage (e.g., Olympics) and playing NCAA events naked is an insult to Greeks.

What's left? They will actually play the games on paper... but only until the phytoactivists get ahold of them for wasting the bodies of phyto-beings and then they will have to play in cyberspace, anonymously, and no one will win because losing could hurt self-esteem and that's not P.C.

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. OK, that was hilarious

:rofl:

And as a current Illini, believe me, this pisses me off.

[Qanisqineq]

18. Hello from a former Illini!

And soon to be one again. I'm moving back to Urbana this winter and starting the PhD program next fall.
:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

26. yeah but none of these are a whole race of people either

who have been treated like subhumans for centuries.

[LaurenG]

15. Have we gone over the edge of sanity?

The perfectionistic extreme thoughts and behavior of those with the power are polluting the country. The only thing I know is when we get too far one way we swing back the other until we reach a balance. Hurry pendulum swing.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

19. You're offended by the OSU Cowboys?!

You must be a freaking Sooner fan, and if you are, I'm going to ignore that comment and dismiss it as blatant bias. :evilgrin:
Duckie

[Left_Winger]

20. Since you're kinda irritated...

My alma mater is the University of South Carolina and our mascot is the "fighting gamecock". It is quite common around Columbia, and even throughout the state, to see a variety of advertisements saying things like "Go Cocks!" We also have a "Cockfest" every year during football season. One of my favorites is a bumper sticker which states: "You can't lick our cocks". Also, if one makes a donation to the alumni association they receive a sticker which identifies them as a "Cock Donor". We do have a lot of fun with the name Gamecocks....

:evilgrin:

So, since cock fighting is a brutal and cruel spectator "sport", maybe you should direct some of your anger at them as well; or, for even being "obscene"....

I'm not trying to start anything here, just adding my two cents.


On Edit: In 1984 when we played "the other USC" and actually won the game there was this bumper sticker: "Their Trojans never could hold our Cocks!"

:rofl:

[Wetzelbill]

105. I am offended by the use of 'Cocks as well....

As someone with a very large on...

I'll just shut up and keep this to myself.:evilgrin:

[Left_Winger]

108. I've told you before Bill ! :) :)

There are so many people here that still think it is 1861 and have no concept that it is 2005. I cannot run away, this is where the fight is.

I was just pointing out how people here have fun with the name, that's all. I was in no way endorsing it. Even Jeff Foxworthy made a joke about those bumper stickers: "South Carolina is the only place in America where you can pull into a church parking lot and see bumper stickers which say: "You can't lick our cocks!"

:silly: :rofl:

[Wetzelbill]

112. oh come on you know you like saying it...

Yeah, it is a fun name though. No doubt about that. You don't need to endorse it, but it doesn't hurt to laugh at it either. :)

[Left_Winger]

113. The laughter is about the only part to which I can relate

[Wetzelbill]

115. oh yeah....

the laughter about the name aside, Cockfighting is a pretty awful sport. If you could call it that. I grew up with animals, dogs, cats, horses etc. It's pretty low to torture animals like that. No doubt abou that.

[Left_Winger]

120. Read my original post...

"...since cock fighting is a brutal..." I agree with you.

If you really want to know, and this should really start the flame wars over the use of the name "Fighting Gamecocks": It's not really about the animal or the fighting. Remember my point about old wine in new bottles.... It is in reference to General Wade Hampton a slave-owning confederate cavalry commander who was known by this moniker. So fire away, I'm going back to my household chores. And, watch out bub! I've got a hot iron, not to mention a jet stream steam-cleaner!

:pals:

[Wetzelbill]

125. no argument here

I was mainly just screwing around.

I didn't know about the Wade Hampton thing. Wow, that's really interesting. Just goes to show you never know what something is going to mean, the history of a term etc.

[Montauk6]

21. Please read "The Myth of Political Correctness," by John K. Wilson

It's quite the eye-opener, and I guarantee you that you'll never use or think of that term the same way again.

Here's the Google excerpt, check it out:

http://tinyurl.com/cm69y

I'm just saying...

[underpants]

127. Great link

I'll see if I can find that book.

[Wetzelbill]

22. I'm a Blackfeet Indian, my grandfather helped design Redskins logo

I am adamantly against the Redskins use as a term and the logo, much to the chagrin of my family, and the legacy of my grandfather who was a great man.

Redskin or "skin" is the American Indian equivalent of the word "nigger." So, if a professional sports team, say, say Washington since they are in this debate, if they were called: the "Washington Niggers" and had a logo of a black man picking cotton out in a field, well, it might be a little fucking offensive. This is the same thing. I'm against it, I don't like it and it isn't right.

I don't like the use of these other names or logos either. It doesn't matter so much if certain tribes agree with it, the idea is it is dehumanizing. The problem with your comparison is it isn't totally accurate. When the Irish people suffer the genocide and assimilation that American Indians have had, then maybe you would have a point. Indians still live on reservations, which are some of the poorest places in the country. The aggregate income of my county for an individual is 12,000 dollars. I suspect when you factor out the income from the white areas it becomes a lot less. We suffer from probably 75 percent unemployment. The dehumanizing factor has taken its toll, it isn't a sign of respect and the logos are not a good thing. If you go to rallies of the teams that compete against the Seminoles or Utes or any of these teams with these names, you see Indians being mocked. They mock the team's mascot, they mock a culture and that is a massive issue. I don't know, but do Notre Dame's opponents hold rallies and make fun of drunken Irishmen and poor potato farmers? If they do it's a shame.

It's not my goal in life to eliminate Indian names and logos from sports. I'm more interested in fighting for all human rights and decency, it's one reason why I am running for office. What is important here is basic human decency. Minorities and women have been treated like cattle for centuries. Nobody asked us whether these logos and names were acceptable or not. Only after they became fashionable did teams seek out approval from the tribes. After they tried to convince - and have all too many - a whole culture that being dehumanized and called racial slurs and being mocked publicly was a way to honor them. It's bullshit.

You know what, how about they hold a national election on all reservations and for all registered Indians too, and vote whether these names and logos should be used? Should they be used? In some cases I don't know. I'm not personally offended by some of these names. I don't like stereotypical logos. Like the Cleveland Indians caricature for example, or I'm not sure I like the stoic vanishing Indian of the Redskins, BlackHawks and Seminoles. It's not a total black and white issue.

But, any non-Indian saying that they are offended about PCness going too far on this is full of it. Until you have been treated like cattle for centuries, endured genocide and the forced assimilation of your culture, then you really don't have any room to complain that some team might have to change their name or logo. I have grown up on a reservation, seen and sometimes have lived abject poverty, witnessed drug addiction, alcoholism and all the combined effects of the dehumanizing of my people. So, yeah, until you know this then you really don't know what being offended means.

[RandomKoolzip]

23. Hey, great post.

Good luck running for office!

[Wetzelbill]

57. thanks

[jonnyblitz]

24. THANK YOU for this post.. I was beginning to think I had

stumbled onto a Rush Limbaugh discussion board. the term P.C. is a fucking right wing term used to shut up dissent (like moaning about libruls engaging in class warfare)so they can continue with their bigotry. :thumbsup:

[progmom]

25. i was thinking the same thing

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

58. yer welcome

[GOPisEvil]

27. That's an excellent post. However, I have a discussion question.

I agree that the final arbiter of what's offensive to a certain class of people should be left to those persons. But, should we not also allow individual tribes to determine for themselves if their name is to be used? You are Blackfeet, should you have a say whether the Seminoles allow their name to be used?

To reiterate, I think Native American names should not be used, but if the individual tribe has no issue with it, should society in general be offended on their behalf?

[Wetzelbill]

30. I'm not sure.....

I think it should be put to a vote for all Indians. The problem with a tribal council making the decision is they are in essence politicians. Politicians, as you well know, don't always make decisions on what's right. It may depend too on financial reasons? Do certain tribe's benefit financially off of merchandise etc? I don't really know. I don't think it's a good thing to have one group of people speak for a whole group, you know? These issues are interrelated. I have seen stats that say most Indians, were it put to a vote would disagree with using these names and logos. I don't know how accurate that is, I think most Indians I know don't care much either way. But, it isn't an honor, it is dehumanizing, and it should, at the very least, be put to a vote.

Just because on individual tribe isn't bothered by it doesn't necessarily speak for the rest of us or for what is right. But, I don't know, I wrestle off and on with this issue. I think it's part of a bigger fight. For minorities, for women, for the poor, for the middle class. I can't be for one and not the other. That's what I often tell my family. I'm not going to sacrifice something that I believe in because my grandfather did something. Some like the Redskins logo, but not the Cleveland Indians one. Why? Because their father, grandfather etc, had something to do with one? I respect the things my grandfather did, I understand what he was doing here. Yet, I will not sacrifice what I believe in for a hypocritical reason. I'm for minority, women's and all of civil rights. I don't support the idea of women giving up free will just because some women might agree with Rick Santorum, so I won't support the use of a stereotypical logo, because my family and another Indian tribe finds something wrong with it. They tie in.

[GOPisEvil]

32. Yeah, I have some of the same conflictions in my mind.

Although at a much lower level. It's mainly an academic exercise for me. My own feeling is to let individual tribes decide on their names, and get input from all Native Americans on names like "Indians" and "Redskins" which are more inclusive.

If a tribal council makes decisions that are not in the best interest of the tribe, they should be replaced, right?

I don't know...no easy answers, but just as a human being, I cannot stand the "Redskin" name, although the logo is inoffensive. The Indians name and logo are just patently offensive.

At least we're talking about it, and that's good.

[JimmyJazz]

31. Excellent post. Too bad we can't nominate individual posts.

:)

[Wetzelbill]

37. thank you JJ

:)

[Misunderestimator]

33. Well, put, Bill.

:thumbsup:

[Wetzelbill]

36. thanks MisU

:)

[Wetzelbill]

35. I should add that this is similar to the situation of women too....

If a man were to stand up and say that he doesn't think a woman should be offended that society has such a brutal and harsh standard of feminine beauty then he probably should be taken outside and beaten. If a man were to say that or something else along those lines, I doubt any Liberal worth their salt would be saying women have gone too far with PCness. Women would definitely have every right to be pissed.

Just correlate that to an Indian's pov, and you'll understand what I mean by until you have experienced all of this you don't know what offended means. Indians have every right to be angered about stereotypes and slurs being prominently displayed in mainstream society.

[VelmaD]

38. Actually you'd be surprised...

at how many supposedly "liberal" men on DU raise a HUGE stink every time women on this board agitate about their use of sexist language. And then tell us it isn't really a big deal, it's no really important, and we should have a sense of humor or just get over it. I've been accused of "PC thuggery" over it.

You're being too PC...the cry of those who want to be offensive without consequences. :eyes:

[Wetzelbill]

39. oh I know, that's why I said "Liberal worth their salt" .....

I from time to time screw up and make dumb posts myself. Nobody's perfect. In the spirit of trying to be funny a dumb comment may come out, but I regret it immediately. If someone finds something offensive, I think a person should just stop it, whether they believe it was offensive or not. It really doesn't matter what they believe, the point is that it hurt someone else.

I have seen some threads that use the word that rhymes with "witch" in the title and the OP will wonder why women were offended. Ok, I can see that, sometimes men are oblivious to it. But, then I would see the same poster defend and argue their way down the whole thread, and tell women to "lighten up" etc. Maybe some women do need to lighten up about some things, I don't know. But, not about an issue like that. I think it's indefensible when men try to defend that. What's more being stupid is one thing, but hurtful is another. You see too much of that on a supposedly "liberal" message board.

[Left_Winger]

47. KICK !!

:kick:

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wetzelbill]

53. thanks NSMA

:)

[I Know How To Do it]

64. I've lived on the East Coast and the West Coast and man have I ran

into some really strange folks that have romantized visions of what Reservation life is like. Keep in mind, there are several people like this everywhere, but I found them more abundant on the coasts. Suburban New age hippy types that have told me they want to throw it all away and and live on a reservation and be one with the Native Americans. They seem to think of these places as one big happy spiritual commune. I haven't been on every reservation, but I can tell you that the Pine Ridge Reservation is a real eye opener. I'd have a hard time believing there was any place in the United States that was more spritually crushing than Pine Ridge. You won't be able to even talk hours later. I bet if more people knew about the actual conditions of places like Pine Ridge they'd be embarrased that their schools mighty Icon is currently living like that and maybe try to help some way. Or at least get rid of the more offensive mascots like the, "Redskins."

[Sean Reynolds]

65. Nice way to turn this around on me.

I respect your opinion, but I fear you didn't even read my post. Which is sad, because if you would have you probably would have seen my point.

I think it's pretty shitty of you to sit there and say I'm full of it, when you didn't address any of my questions.

Am I against political correctness? No. But I am against the banning of names deemed OFFENSIVE by WHITE MALES, even if they're supported by such a tribe.

Maybe you truly do believe naming your team the "Utes" is mocking a culture and dehumanizing it, but they don't. In the end, isn't that all that truly matters?

I think your last comment takes the cake. You sit there and say as a non-Indian I shouldn't be offended by how far PCness has gone. BUT as a Native American, you SHOULD be offended by a WHITE MAN telling the Ute Tribe that their opinion doesn't matter.

Because THAT'S what the NCAA is doing here!

Maybe YOU should read this article here:

http://www.sltrib.com/sports/ci_2919084

The Ute Indian Tribe is AGAINST the NCAA's ruling. A ruling that no one contacted the tribe for.

That's what offends me!

But if you would have read my post before saying I was full of it, maybe you'd of understood that better.

You know what? I'd even say the Utes should change their name if the Ute Indian Tribe came out tomorrow and said they were offended by it.

However the University, since 1972, has worked VERY closely with the tribe.

A while back there was a warrior that would ride on a horse and throw a spear into hay. The Ute Tribe said they didn't like that. The athletic department did away with it.

Then when they brought in their new mascot (a Redtailed Hawk) they even went and asked the Ute tribe if they were ok with it.

They were.

But I guess the althetic department COULD just ignore the voices of the Ute Tribe and just continue onward like MANY college programs do. But they don't. Instead they sit down every year and make sure the Ute Tribe still endorses the name.

Once they don't, there won't be any Utah Utes. And I'm fine with that. However I don't agree with WHITE MEN making the claim that Utah Utes is offensive and hostile.

Many of those Ute Indians take pride in the team. Go read that article and see how upset they really are about the chance of losing the name.

But what do I know? I'm just full of it.

[Wetzelbill]

86. no it isn't what truly matters

I should say in hindsight, I said "any non-Indian" and then after that I used "you". I didn't mean an ad hominem, I really should stuck with "any non-Indian." But, yeah, any non-Indian who says Indians are going too far with PCness on this is full of it. I think you were joking around in your OP a little, so I'm not sure just exactly how firmly you stand on this, so I don't know if you are totally full of it or not.

I don't need to read the article.(although I did read it, it doesn't say much) It doesn't necessarily matter what one Individual tribe thinks. It's what the Indian people as a whole think. These logos and names don't just represent a Ute or a Seminole for example. They represent all Indians, in some form. It is dehumanizing, no argument about it at all. It's not that I "feel" it is. It IS. I'm not upset about the ruling. Why should I be upset about it. The NCAA is standing up for civil rights, which is bigger than the opinion of one tribe.

See the ruling in question is part of a policy that had the input of many tribes around the country. It's about banning the use of abusive, hostile and racist terms. The NCAA made it's decision based on a ruling made from the input of a variety of tribes, tribal organizations and Indian activist organizations. The Ute Tribe is small. They have 3,174 enrolled tribal members. It wasn't a group of white people who are telling them they can't have the name, it is a ruling based on the wishes of a far greater number of American Indians. So I am not upset that the NCAA ruled in favor of minority rights.

More importantly you should be asking, does the opinion of one small tribe matter over the opinion of the rest of the American Indian community? No it doesn't. The NCAA is telling the Ute Tribe that the majority of Indian's wishes matter, not just a few.


But, let's put it to a vote and see. That's the best way to do it.

[Sean Reynolds]

92. I understand what you're saying.

I do agree that non-Indians who blame Indians for going too far with the PCness are full of it. That's not what I'm trying to do.

I guess my problem rests within the fact that a group outside the Ute tribe is demanding the changes. If you find the logo of the Utes (drum and feather) offensive to the entire Native population, I'm all for looking at a new logo. However the term "Ute" isn't used in an abusive, hostile or hateful way.

I'm sure you know Utah gets its name from the Ute Tribe. When in 1972 the Utes changed their name from the Redskins they wanted to call themselves something that honored the state's past. They went with the Utes, because they were the first settlers within the state.

At the time they got the ok from the Ute Tribe to use the term. I guess I really don't see anything wrong with that.

I do agree that they should probably put it up for a vote. Sports Illustrated did a poll some time back and a large majority of Indians did not oppose banning some names.

I do think there are extreme cases and I agree they should be banned. I am not a fan of the term Redskins, Indians, Braves, Savages or even programs named after tribes that AREN'T in support of it.

But in the end, I do believe the local support of the tribe should trump that of a national group of Indians put together by the NCAA. Why? Because it's THEIR name and if they feel it's being using rightfully, it should be kept.

The Utah Utes will probably appeal this case. I'm hoping they win NOT because I'm a racist, anti-Indian fuck. But because I truly believe the name honors the tribe.

A tribe that has its roots within Utah state history.

A tribe that takes pride in the name.

Utah has done everything to please the local Ute Tribe. Every time they change their look they consult them. Every time a year passes, they consult them on the name. If the Utes have a problem, Utah changes it. But they don't have a problem and I can see why they'd be upset.

They're honored that the program is named after their tribe. Most of those 3,174 members ARE Ute fans.

All of those 3,174 members haven't EVER said they were offended by the term.

Many of them will be hurt if the NCAA forces the Utes to change their name.

Thankfully I don't think it will come to that. I truly believe the term "Ute" is not used to offend, nor is it hostile. So I have full confidence that the NCAA will rule in favor of the Utes.

[Wetzelbill]

94. just a difference of opinion

I have a different opinion on the issue. You articulated yours and I did mine. I get what you're saying too. This thread is getting kind of wild, so let's leave it at that. I respect your views, though, and once you began addressing my replies, I think you did a good job articulating your convictions. A little debate never hurt anyone. :)

[GaYellowDawg]

98. Hey -

You've made it pretty clear that you've got strong feelings about this. I just wanted to say that I really respect you for keeping your cool and for being courteous in your replies. I'm not sure I'd be mature enough to do the same in your shoes.

[Wetzelbill]

102. we're all on the same side

Hell, nobody here really means to hurt anybody, you know? Most of us have strong opinions about stuff that maybe others disagree or don't know all that much about. Does that mean we have to get ugly to get our point across? No way! If we fought Republicans half as hard as we fight each other then maybe Dems will go places. I've lost my cool a few times on DU, it takes a lot for me to do so, but whenever I did it wasn't worth doing so. But, now I'm much more able to see another person's pov through a more objective light. I try not to have my mind made up on an issue before I know all the facts too. That helps. It takes a lot of work though. You should see the e-mails I used to get from a Freeper-like friend. I beat him into submission and he still wouldn't get it, at first I was nasty as hell, because he'd make me lose my cool by being ignorant. After a while I just started taking his words and using them against him. I'm a writer and worked as a columnist before, so I completely manhandled him, but in a civil manner. Soon he came around to a lot of what I was saying. So if I can deal with a Right-Wing former military guy like my friend in a civil manner, then I can do so with a fellow Dem who probably agrees with me 99 percent of the time. But, yeah, thanks for your comments, I appreciate it.

[Sean Reynolds]

99. Thanks!

I'm always up for a debate and if I sounded harsh in my original reply, I'm sorry. I think this is a touchy subject that honestly I can't really say much about because I'm not Native American. I just go by what I've read about the Ute Tribe and what they think of the name.

[Wetzelbill]

101. your welcome

[ulysses]

72. great post.

:thumbsup:

[Wetzelbill]

103. glad you liked it

[no name no slogan]

122. Bookmarking this thread

damn Bill, you nailed it. grand slam, inside the park home run dude! :toast:

you make a very good point about the issue not being black and white-- there's plenty of nuance for sure. For example, if the Seminoles are not offensive, what about the South Dakota Fighting Sioux?

The word "Sioux" is derived from a French/Algonquin word meaning "little snakes". IMHO not a very positive image, and probably not one that the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota use to describe themselves.

[Wetzelbill]

126. glad you liked it

[Pool Hall Ace]

128. I am a fan of the Washington Redskins

Many Redskins fans live in Virginia, which is known for its peanuts. I say change the logo and mascot to a Redskin peanut. That way, the team name remain unchanged, but the racist connotation is gone.

[Cerridwen]

28. Let's see...

political correctness is the acknowledgment that not all people on this planet are:

privileged
anglo-saxon
male
heterosexual
currently physically "abled"
monied
property owners
educated (or have access to the "right" schools)
politically connected/powerful
Protestant (or whichever "religious" group is "in charge")

and you think that acknowledgment has gone "too far?" Perhaps you could do some research to learn what political correctness truly is rather than what rush, o'reilly, schlafly, coulter, gingrich, robertson, falwell, et. al. have done with the original intent and meaning of the phrase.

Much as they have taken the word "liberal" and re-defined it in their own perverse image rather than it's original definition (I especially like definition #1)

lib·er·al adj.

1.
1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
4. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2.
1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.

edited for clarity

[Sean Reynolds]

60. And this is a case where extremism is at work.

Political correctness was made to help protect individuals. In this case it isn't doing that.

It's just been hijacked by the NCAA to push their cause -- whatever it may be. No Ute Tribe member has EVER protestes the usage of the term Utah Utes. So why is the NCAA so pissed about it?

[underpants]

29. The NCAA answers to no one so to think this is bowing to "PC"

is copmplete nonesense.

I will say that PC actually is just common decency.

[Misunderestimator]

34. "PC... is just common decency."

:thumbsup:

[AlGore-08.com]

40. I have to reiterate "PC" is a right wing smear campaign started in the 90s

Designed to undermine support for civil rights. Prior to the successful introduction of "PC" into the culture, we actually used to have intelligent conversations in the media about life as experienced by women and minorities. They talked about things like income disparity and disparity in representation: for example, if women are 51% of the population, why are there only 13 women in the Senate and 61 women in the House (BTW this is a record number of women in Congress)? Why do white women earn only 75% of what white men earn? If African-Americans are 12% of the US population, why do they make up 24% of Americans living in poverty? If Latinos make up 12% of the US population, why do they make up 22% of Americans living in poverty?

Part of the reason for that is the way society as a whole reinforces certain stereotypes about gender roles and ethnicity (and sexual orientation). For example, how many films and TV shows and music videos have you seen this year alone where there was a black character who came from "the streets" and was either a gangsta or a former gangsta. Does that promote awareness in whites of the problems faced by inner-city, impoverished African-Americans, or does it promote a harmful stereotype that all blacks are violent criminals?

It's a reasonable question, but the moment you take that out of the general and into the specific, it becomes very easy to ridicule - - and the best way to ridicule it is to take a different specific out of the context and inflate it into the new general. This is a tactic the right uses for a lot of it's attacks, so I think it's important to map it out.

Real Life Problem: The number of hate crimes against gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered Americans increased 8% in 2004.

General academic discussion about the problem: Does the portrayal of gay characters in the mass media have any affect, positive or negative, on prejudice against GLBT?

Specific academic discussion about the problem:

http://www.glaad.org/eye/stories.php

Studies Reveal Watching Gays on TV Reduces Prejudice

New studies by University of Minnesota researchers have found that watching positive portrayals of gays on television can reduce anti-gay prejudice. In three separate studies, researchers measured the attitudes of a total of 475 college students toward gay men before and after watching episodes of Bravo's "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy," NBC's "Will & Grace" and HBO's "Six Feet Under." In all three instances, exposure to portrayals of gays resulted in a significant reduction in prejudice, the university reported.

"The more they learned about gay men as a group, the more their attitudes toward gay men moved in a tolerant direction," said lead researcher Edward Schiappa, a U of M professor of communications. The amount of change was greatest among those with little or no prior interpersonal contact with gay men.

From their studies, the researchers have created a theory called the Parasocial Contact Hypothesis, which contends that positive experiences with minority characters can reduce prejudice in a manner similar to direct contact with people. "Through the medium of television, viewers actually develop a relationship with the characters," Schiappa said, "and this parasocial relationship leads to lessened prejudice."

Ridiculing the specific by taking it out of context: The liberals are all too eager to play the "oppressed minority" card and pretend that so called "hate crimes against gays" is some kind of real problem. But they themselves know it isn't - - otherwise, why would the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation's solution be to watch more "Will and Grace"?

And that sort of ridicule is how they got the term "PC" so ingrained into our popular culture, making it very difficult to have serious discussions about equality - - today, any minority member or woman who talks about inequality is perceived as being an oversensitive, humorless, oppressive jerk, and any white male who talks about inequality is perceived to be "pandering to the special interests which are tearing the Democratic party apart". (The implication is that each oppressed minority only supports equal rights for itself - - that Jesse Jackson cannot support equal rights for women on principal, etc.)

And the right did this for several "lesser" reasons as well. After changing the discussion from "Are cultural stereotypes harmful?" to "Why are you trampling on my first Amendment rights?", they have been "free" to use the ugliest stereotypes in their campaigns (using images of illegal immigrants "swarming" over the border, using the infamous Willie Horton ad, whipping up anti-gay hysteria to lure an additional 4 million right wingers to the polls, etc., etc., etc... ). And, what I think most people miss, is they have made it much harder to win civil rights law suits by poisoning the jury pool. That's a win/win for them, big time.

[Bucky]

41. ARRR Matey! I be roight orfended by that thar Pittsburgh team's name.

Shiver me timbers, I oughta keel haul them blasted landlubbers. Arrr!!

[petronius]

70. What's wrong with "Penguins"?

Or do you have a problem with the metals industry? I don't get it...

[Left Is Write]

44. At my high school, we had the Burnsville Braves.

Some years after I graduated, the name was changed to the Burnsville Blaze.

[Dastard Stepchild]

45. My father fought the change of the Marquette Warriors for years...

He assents that the "Willy Wampum" character was too much, but believes that the term warrior is not, by nature, un-PC because it simply means fighter. Which is true, until you couple it with an Indian mascot. :)

In his mind, he started a petition to bring back the Warriors, but take away any reference to Indians. I wonder if he'll actually act on it.

At my own high school, we were the Redskins. My junior year, we had a very contentious rift between students who thought it improper and students who thought it proper. I voted for the former. I think they are now some kind of bird.

My thought is that if the presence of something as simple as a name makes people feel like shit, best to change the name and calm the waters. In the grand scheme of things, one still gets to see a (hopefully) great ball game, football game, hockey game, any game, regardless of the name.

And I love it when people call me PC. I wear it like a badge of honor. Much like when people call me a liberal. Lets me personally know I am doing something right.

edited for sp.

[tarkus]

46. Personally I can't believe some southern schools are still the Rebels NT

[Left_Winger]

51. Or put old wine into new bottles

For example, I am from SC and the Citadel, while a good school, used to wave the confederate flag at sporting events. A while back, it finally dawned on them that they were being very offensive to others and to their African-American cadets. So... they brought out the state flag of SC, but in lieu of the blue one which is the official state flag, they brought out a red one. This was the flag they flew when their cadets manned a battery of artillery and fired on Ft. Sumter in 1861. I do not know how many people in SC are aware of this, or even care.

[Wetzelbill]

54. that's really interesting.......I bet you're one of those librul history

guys. Probably got a history degree and everything. :)

No, honestly, that was a really interesting fact about the red flag.

[Left_Winger]

63. I obtained that little tid-bit from

the Chair of the Department of Southern Studies at USC (not the one in California).

If you would like another example of "old wine in new bottles" just compare the new Georgia state flag with the original confederate flag, the one which was referred to as the "Star and Bars". Remember there was a problem with the former state flag of Georgia because half of it was the confederate battle flag. Once again, I wonder how many people are aware of such things.

BTW, yes I'm one of "them there librul hisstry types".

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Wetzelbill]

56. !!!!!!

:spray: :rofl:

:patriot:

[Name removed]

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[Bunny]

100. .

[fishnfla]

71. So its politically incorrect to point out political correctness?

but only if you are a white male ? What else would you call this ruling?

This stupid rule affects alot of men and women athletes of all races. Students who use their athletic skills to achieve scholarships and higher education, a shot at professional careers. Alot of scholarship money comes from post-season play.

If tribal elders say its OK to use the names, the NCAA should respect that.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

110. tribal elders don't speak for all tribes

[sundog]

130. ding

certain elders retain tradition & certain elders have 'assimilated'

there are still dichotomies on rez between traditionalists & those who are in political positions...

politicians are a sometimes a small group of people scratching each other's backs... their mentality is often simply trickle down from the 'anglo' world... many politicians will naturally align themselves with the position which will help them to retain their posts (there are of course, some exceptions to that)...

in other words, an elder in a political post(with a high profile voice)does not necessarily speak the sentiments of the whole tribe & certainly not other tribes...

[dajoki]

50. be careful at penn state...

the nittany lions are fed up and about to attack.:silly:

[Sabriel]

52. "PC" is a RW term. Avoid it if you can.

It's often used to trivialize the way oppressed peoples attempt to mitigate the effects of race and class privilege. Remember the backlash against the non-sexist language movement, where people made fun of "firefighter" and "postal carrier"? Well, as a woman myself and the mother of a girl, I say Fuck them! I like that she's not growing up in a world where the language is male-dominated.

Ditto for supposedly "PC" efforts such as the one here by the NCAA. It's easy for me as a white person to say that language doesn't matter...because it doesn't, to ME. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to traditionally marginalized peoples. Taking back the language is sometimes the first (or only) step to make.

End of rant.

[Wetzelbill]

55. excellent point about taking back language nt

[Sean Reynolds]

61. I just don't know what else to call this.

I guess I could call it screwy.

[Wetzelbill]

88. Uh, I think she agreed with you in a way nt

[Sean Reynolds]

93. Uh..I know.

I was agreeing that maybe this isn't political correctness.

[Wetzelbill]

95. oh I see

I thought you were calling the poster screwy. I was like: "WTF, did he read that wrong?"

[Sean Reynolds]

97. LOL, no.

:P

[Left_Winger]

90. Dear Sean Reynolds,

I notice that you use the Karl Marx avatar on your posts. After having read this entire thread I must ask you two questions: 1. Just exactly how much do you know about Marxist theory; and, 2. Have you ever read The Communist Manifesto and actually comprehended the thesis of this book? In case you have not, it is about the oppression of the "have-nots" by those who "have".

Allow me to quote (since you seem to be unaware): "Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word; oppressor and oppressed.... In the early epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold graduation of social rank.... The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society, has not done away with class antagonisms. It has established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones."

You decry the names of certain teams/mascots which offend you, but want to allow those which offend others. My advice is to try and be more sensitive toward others and how someone else may feel. Marxist ideology is about equality in society and one method (although there are other methods) to obtain it. May I suggest that you learn something about Marxist ideology before using his image on a thread which allows for the marginalization of others and then supports your outcry of being offended.

[Sean Reynolds]

96. So let me get this straight.

We should ban everything that offends someone?

I'm sensitive toward people. I've not met one person that has been offended by the Utah UTES. The Ute tribe surely isn't. I've said it before that if the Ute tribe were to ever come out and say they were offended by the name, I'd agree and accept a change.

However they've endorsed the idea every single year the Utes approach them to talk about the naming rights of the University of Utah sports program.

Really though, someone is going to be offended about something. I'm sure you've got some Irish guy offended by the Fighting Irish term.

Do we ban their mascot and logo too?

What if PETA comes out saying they're offended by animals being used as mascots?

Do we ban animal names too?

I think there's a general list of names most people deem offensive.

I'm talking about:

The Braves
Redskins
Savages
Indians
Warriors (possibly)

However I understand that we can't ban everything that offends. So we must find a common ground.

I believe most Americans/Native Americans embrace that common ground. Which come from the names I listed above.

But it doesn't really matter what I think. Or you think. IMO, it only matters what the UTE TRIBE thinks.

And for the past 30 or so years they've endorsed the usage of the term Ute.

[Left_Winger]

106. You really missed my point...

You use the image of Karl Marx to represent yourself and then come across with demands that people change to meet your standards so that you will not be offended (from your original post). Since you missed my point by a mile, and evidently have no concept of Marxist ideology why should we bother to continue this dialog? Your attempt to dodge the issue which I brought forth by going off on a tangent is quite lame. If the Utes are not upset by the University of Utah using that name, then fine.

No, we cannot ban everything which offends everyone. I agree with you on that point and I respect your post #87, however representing yourself as a Marxist is quite misleading, almost to the point of hypocrisy. May I suggest that you read The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital (Capital in English) before representing yourself as a Marxist? THAT IS MY POINT. Evidently you are more concerned with sports and how teams represent themselves than how you represent yourself.

How much do you really know about Marxism, Communism and Socialism or do you just think that having his image on your posts makes you look cool? If you do have any substantive knowledge about this topic, please respond, I would like to hear what you have to say; and, please leave the sports dodge out of it, keep your response to the question I have posed to you.

[Sean Reynolds]

111. I think you missed my point.

I never demanded that ANY program change their name. The examples I gave in my original reply were in jest. I don't really expect the NCAA to say Oklahoma State, Wake Forest and Notre Dame must change their name.

As for me reading the Communist Manifesto, I've done that. And I still fail to see how my comment above has anything to do with my Marxist beliefs?

But if you feel the need to belittle my beliefs and question my ideology, so be it.

I guess I could question whether you're a true liberal, since you seem to have closed your mind to my replies (not addressing the fact that I never demanded people change anything -- only that disagreed with the ruling).

[Ratty]

91. That's exactly right

There is no national liberal committee which hands down decrees on what and what is not PC. Some liberals find things offensive and unacceptable while many others do not. The spectrum is wide and includes those who think everything is fair game--the very fact that there are some questions that cannot be asked and certain things that cannot be said is offensive to them--to the ultra radical which would ban just about everything. You find this on the right and you find it on the left. The hard right loves nothing more than to take the most extreme examples and paint us all with the same broad stroke. Not that we should care what the hard right thinks, or the radical left for that matter. Stand up for what you believe and fuck 'em all I say. It's like the word feminism. The right loves to take radical feminism, a philosophy that often advocates lesbianism for all women and equates all heterosexual sex as rape, and equate it with all feminism. I have no argument with radical feminists but I don't happen to agree with them.

[Kat45]

66. My high school's football team was the Raiders, the Red Raiders

to be more precise. The logo was an Indian (face) in headdress. The team's color was red. Along with the cheerleaders were two "Indians," women wearing red fringed Indian-type dresses. No one thought anything of it. One of the cheers was "Raiders on the warpath. Ooh Aah!"

I drove by my old high school the other day, and the sign outside it said "xxx High School. Home of the Raiders." So I guess they still have the same name. This is in a blue state.

[Bat Boy]

69. As someone who is of indeterminate ancestry...

I'm pretty much offended by everything, just to be on the safe side.

[RandomKoolzip]

77. And I'm offended by your post.

[Bat Boy]

79. So am I.

I didn't say it was easy...

[RandomKoolzip]

80. Who are you calling "easy?!"

BatBoys just don't get it.

[Bat Boy]

82. You don't have to tell me Bat Boys don't get it.

I know how little I get.

What? You think I'm stupid?

You're starting to piss me off. At least I think you are...

[I Know How To Do it]

83. I'm offended by the South Carolina Game Cocks.

I mean what school in the year 2005 would still use Cock Fighting as a mascot?

[ZombieNixon]

118. As a male, I'm offended by that, too.

I refuse to lend my penis to a school sports team!

Ohhhhh, you mean rooster. In my world, cock-fighting means...I've said too much.

;)

[sundog]

85. "political correctness" often equates basic social etiquette

i think the term "pc" is often used by those who resist social attempts to facilitate communication & understanding between groups...

there are universal manners & etiquettes among all people of the planet... language is one part of those & is most often the doorway to productive exchange between people

[Sean Reynolds]

87. I'd like to say I was probably wrong in using the term PC.

I support political correctness. However I don't support extreme rulings like what we've seen with the NCAA. Whether you call it PC or not, it doesn't change how wrong it really is.

The entire post however is against the fact that white men are making choices that should be left up to the Native Americans themselves.

I'm all for telling college programs to change their names if the Native Americans feel it's offensive and hostile. However, I do not agree with white NCAA officials making that decision for them.

That's what angers me.

[Mr.Green93]

107. Good thing you self corrected

PC is right for everyone.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. The NCAA does not want to offend the various races

It's a shame that gets so little support on a progressive site

[Wetzelbill]

114. basically the decision was made

off of a previous ruling against names and logos that are hostile and offensive to Indians. This initial ruling was made with the input of many Indian tribes and activist groups. So the NCAA is, indeed, making a progressive decision based on the input of many Indians around the country. The wishes of one tribe doesn't circumvent the initial ruling. The same way that the wishes of women who are members of an anti-choice organization shouldn't circumvent Roe v. Wade. Because the issue has been decided already, with more than enough input from the group whose rights are at stake.

[Sean Reynolds]

117. And I think that's where we disagree.

I can see your point, however I truly believe it should be left up to the tribes. If the Ute Tribe deems the term offensive, I support dropping the name. However it isn't fair to the Ute Tribe when other Native Americans make that choice for them.

Leave it to the tribes...unless of course the term is so vague that it incorporates the entire group (like using the word Indian).

Also about comparing it to Roe v Wade, I get your point. However Roe V Wade also doesn't force every woman to have an abortion. Rather, it just keeps the option open. What the NCAA ruling is doing is FORCING programs to change their name, even if they have the blessing of the tribe. Which would be a lot like forcing every woman to have an abortion, even if they weren't for it.

[Wetzelbill]

121. yeah that's a fine line

I'm not sure if I have a whole opinion on that angle of it yet. I'd like to wrestle personally with it first, you know? Not just make a snap judgement on a message board and argue it out for know reason, haha. I try to make up my mind based on the facts, not some preordained idea I have from a fixed ideology. I'm pretty open to arguments. I think you have to decide whether you think the use of "Ute" although it is one tribe, is also symbolic of American Indians as a whole. As a sect, do they in term represent the whole group too? Maybe they do. Maybe they don't necessarily. That's something I'll have to explore.

I should mention some Indians don't mind Native American, but the preferred term is American Indian. I don't mind Native American, some people do, but I do prefer American Indian. I don't know if anybody would ever bite your head off because of it or anything, but the usage of Native American is inaccurate. Because if you're born here in the U.S., well that makes you a Native American. If you have ever watched "Gangs Of New York" the Irish born here in the States call themselves Native Americans. Just thought I'd let you know that. For future reference.

[Sean Reynolds]

123. Sorry about the term.

Every American Indian I have met has been ok with me using the term Native American, so that's pretty much what I've used my whole life. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

I think this is such a complicated argument that it doesn't just fit into two categories (for and against). While I truly believe that the Ute Tribe should have the ultimate say, I can understand what you're getting at.

I read that the NCAA has allowed one North Carolina school to continue using their name because their school demographics is made up of something like 60% American Indian.

While the University of Utah does not have that high of an American Indian population, the Ute Tribe is very much apart of our history. Like I originally said, they were the first settlers of Utah and that's also where the state got its name.

Back when the University started putting together sports programs they went by the name Redskins. In 1972, under NO pressure, they decided to change it. Utes became the program's name, with the blessing of the tribe, and it's stuck.

I really believe the term Utes is there to honor the heritage of the state. A lot like how Wyoming's football team is called the Cowboys.

Maybe I just can't understand whether it's offensive or not, since I'm not American Indian. But I see a program that has the total endorsement of the Ute Tribe and I can't help but wonder why the NCAA is calling the term hostile and offensive.

We don't have any American Indians riding in on horses and throwing a spear into hay. The school's mascot is a redtailed hawk (which was approved by the Ute tribe) and the only thing really related to American Indians -- outside the name -- is the logo, which is a drum and feather with the block U in the middle.

They've been very open to ideas from the Ute Tribe and have done everything in their power in honoring the respect of the tribal name. I like that because I know many college programs don't do that. Illinois does not do it and even Florida State does not honor the Oklahoma Seminoles wishes.

But the University of Utah has ALWAYS been respectful of the Ute Tribe and I think that's why they've been so supportive of the Utah athletic program.

[Wetzelbill]

124. maybe the law as is doesn't have any leeway

in it right now. That may be something they can rectify.

Nothing to be sorry about. I don't really know anybody who is offended by the term, I just know many prefer American Indian.

[Sean Reynolds]

119. I don't buy that at all.

If that were the case the NCAA would ban any usage of ethnic, religious or racial names.

I believe that there is a set standard for what's offensive. I'm offended by the term Redskins and I can see why the term Indian is offensive as well.

However when a name GETS support from the tribe (like the Utes have), I see no problem.

In the end I think the list put out by the NCAA has some flaws. The Ute Indian Tribe is NOT offended by the Utah athletic program using the term UTES, so why should the NCAA be offended?

IF the Ute Tribe came out and said they WERE offended, I'd be the first to say "Change it!" But that isn't the case. Heck, the Utes might be one of the purest Native American names for an athletic program.

If I recall the Illini does NOT like Illinois using that term. Oklahoma Seminoles are opposed to Florida State using that term. But never have I read anything that states the Ute Tribe is offended by the Utah Utes athletic program using their name. In fact they approve it every year. The UofU and the Ute Tribe meet and discuss the situation.

I see nothing wrong with that. And I think it's a shame that a progressive would tell a tribe (the Utes) how to think when it comes to finding something offensive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

132. So all American Indians should let you determine what is

offensive to them? No there is no set standard. That is why Margaret Cho's television sit com was canceled. What she felt was funny as an Asian American was unfunny to another group of Asian Americans.

I did not tell the Utes how to think. A larger group of American Indians protested and the NCAA did say individual teams could appeal.

[Sean Reynolds]

133. No one should tell the Utes how to think.

That's the bottom line. It's THEIR name and if they don't find it offensive no American Indian, white man, black man or Hispanic man should force them to change their thinking.

I truly believe it should be left up to the tribe. If the Ute Tribe came out tomorrow and said it was offensive, I'd be one of the first people to say change the name. But from 1972 to 2005 the University of Utah has ALWAYS gotten the blessing of the Ute Tribe in using that name.

The NCAA said the individual teams COULD appeal, I hope in the end they understand where the Ute Tribe is coming from. I don't think it's fair to make the decision FOR the tribe.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

134. That's different than the "PC" argument. But I will always have a problem

with white males telling every other race and sex what should and should not be offensive to them. That's just me.

[Sean Reynolds]

135. I never told them.

You're putting words in my mouth.

The UTE TRIBE (not white men) are telling the NCAA that THEY are wrong and that THEY aren't offended by the Utah Utes using their tribal name.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

136. OK whatever..and one more point from your op

Fuck PC! It's been hijacked by extremists and now it's being used to ban things that shouldn't be banned.

As an Irish man, I'm offended by the term Fighting Irish. I think the NCAA should force Notre Dame to change their name!

Notre Dame was founded by Irish Catholics. None of the colleges you mentioned were founded by American Indians.

[Sean Reynolds]

138. And the Utes support the UofU using their name.

What's your point?

[fishnfla]

129. So its politically incorrect to use the term "politically correct" ?

*my head, it hurts*

Really, we liberals dont need RWers to make fun of us. Sometimes, we become perfect caricatures of ourselves. I know, Dinesh whatshisname is a RWer who came up with the term to belittle liberal oversensitivity. But its a pretty accurate and apt term and guess what, it has become part of our language lexicon.

Smoogatz has an interesting piece of work over in Editorials " Why America Hates Liberals" that I thought everyone should at least read and consider. Busybodies telling us where to shop, what to eat, how to talk, how to think. Now we are being indoctrinated: white american males, your opinion does not apply. If you speak out, personal attacks are made regarding your age, skin condition and sexuality are the response, bring the caricature of PC full circle if you think about it,

Well I got news for you: the FSU Seminoles are not going to change their name, it just aint gonna happen.( FWIW, I hate the 'noles) Further news: this foolish politically correct ruling is going to be lambasted across the land and the NCAA ruling committee will have to wipe the egg off their faces and rescind it.

[Pithlet]

131. You've bought into the myth of what right wingers think

liberals are. We are none of the things you've just mentioned.

Sorry, I'm not going to be browbeaten and shamed into thinking like a right winger. That is all people like Smoogatz, your post I'm responding to, and anyone else who decries "PC" is trying to do.

[Elidor]

137. Political correctness went too far a LONG time ago

It catches everyone out sooner or later. And it's bullshit. It's just bullshit, and I hate it. Just let it go! :D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

139. Yeah! Let's put those minorities and women in their damn place!

Uppity jerks!

:eyes:

[Avalux]

140. Delete

[Avalux]

141. Locking.

This thread has outlived any usefulness it may have had. What it succeeded in doing more than anything is cause tempers to flare. Enough.