Q: I have a question for all you rock music fans out there...

[battleknight24]

I know that a lot of people, even me sometimes, make fun of some of the hard rock/hair metal bands of the 80's and very early 90's... but in your opinion, were any of these bands or musicians talented on a technical level? Did any of the musicians from this era inspire you? Anyway, here are some musicians from this era that I think deserve a little more respect...

Rick Allen, drummer, Def Leppard- In my opinion, one of the most underrated drummers ever. Hell, the guy kicked ass with only one arm!

C.C. Deville, guitar, Poison- Okay, okay, okay... before you flame away and start making fun of me, let me just say that I think his guitar playing shadowed the rest of the bands modest abilities.

Will Calhoun, drummer and Vernon Reid, guitar player, In Living Colour- the only song I know from them is "Cult of Personality," but from this song alone, its sounds like these two guys- the whole band for that matter- have serious chops.

What do you guys think?

Peace,

[Catch22Dem]

1. Actually a lot of them were, indeed, very talented musically

The problem is, they got wrapped up in a genre that was going nowhere. So, you're not at all wrong. Many very talented musicians were a part of the short-lived hair-metal genre.

[DrGonzoLives]

8. Exactly

All of them were talented as hell.

[Book Lover]

2. A name that often pops up when this kind of question is asked

is Yngwie Malmsteen (I'll have to google that one after I post! I know I misspelled it). I've heard him, and he was technically very good.

onedit - I only missed an "e" in the surname. Pat my back!

[WCGreen]

19. Fast.... No Heart

[PittPoliSci]

44. just fast?

i'm sorry, but when you can play like malmsteen, you've got heart.

have you ever watched him? it's mindboggling.

[lildreamer316]

59. No no

He took enourmous pride on being the fastest technically proficient player; and for that reason alone was not paying homage to the soul of the guitar itself. If you want technical proficiency with soul; listen to Satriani or Vai. Or the more obscure recordings of my hero, EVH. (hence my name)

[WCGreen]

78. Yea I have seen him....

Not live.....

But his music lacked something that pushed it from a very good craft into the realm of art....

Just my opinion, BTW....

[noahmijo]

3. 1989 that was the year I discovered Dream Theater

whom today has only progressed into a more technically amazing band.

Then we got Fates Warning, Queensryche, Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Eric Johnson, oh man I could go on The Dregs, Steve Morse, and Deville! he could play and of course..Yngwie!!

Hey say what you will bands and players of the 80's could play they had real chops they took the shred or get off the pot philosophy, unfortunately I haven't seen the same quality of bands come out from the 90's (although I am a fan of a many 90's band but not for their technical ability)

[antigone382]

24. If you want today's technical ability, you have to go to black metal.

I realize that the ghoulish face make-up and shocking lyrics are not for everyone, but you can't beat a band like Dimmu Borgir for raw technical mastery.

[PittPoliSci]

45. only one problem.

Dimmu isn't representative of the black metal genre. Early black metal bands like Mayhem and Burzum just thrived on speed, not much technical work in at all, and even if it was technical, you couldn't really hear it due to the speed they played at.

I love Dimmu though, by the way, Death Cult Armageddon is one of my favorite albums.

I think the more Gothenburg style metal is more representative of technical playing. Bands like Dark Tranquillity, Soilwork, and In Flames really come to mind.

Power metal is pretty ridiculously technical too, bands like Blind Guardian, Iced Earth, Demons and Wizards, and Iron Maiden come to mind.

[6000eliot]

4. The Def Leppard guys and the Living Color guys were good

Also, the Guns and Roses guys and the Whitesnake guys. Not many of the rest of them, however. I don't really like the hair metal stuff. I prefer the original glam rock stuff from the '70s.

[tigereye]

5. dunno

Does Vernon Reid count as "hair metal" - that would be pretty funny. (kidding) :) Reid was quite skilled, as was the singer.

As for the rest, I was fully ensconced in the punk/alt scene during those years and paid no attention.

[battleknight24]

7. (OP) Now that I searched for some stuff...

... it turns out Will Calhoun (drummer for In Living Colour) has received a lot of recognition for his work.

Yeah, In Living Colour is not "hair metal," but to me they were a branch of that big rock scene of the 80's and very early 90's...

In fact, I'd argue that the technical ability of a lot of these bands is greater than many of the commercial rock bands on the radio today.


Peace,

[tigereye]

10. I was just teasing

since they really don't fit with the other bands you named. They were pretty good, though.

[AntiCoup2K4]

6. Living Colour - a tragically underrated band.

These guys were fucking great. Or should I say "are", since they're apparently touring again. Though I still haven't seen them :evilfrown:
4 amazing talents in a great band. If not for Guns N Roses, they would have been THE hard rock band of the late 80's. Ironic that they split up around the same time too. At least Living Colour managed to regroup with the same lineup and actually put out an album.

Rick Allen - I'll give the guy credit for comeback of the decade, and pulling it off as a one armed drummer. It's just too bad that Def Leppard had wussed out long before his accident. "High and Dry" was the last truly great album they made.

CC Deville - crap, just like the rest of his band. The guys they replaced him with, Kotzen and Saraceno, were both far better guitarists, not that they did much for the band, because Bret Michaels can't write songs to save his life.

[battleknight24]

12. Kotzen and Saraceno came along long after...

... Poison reached its prime, at least commercially since very few today take them seriously... speaking of commercial success, it was really only the first two albums that were huge hits.

Bret Michael's songwriting ability was moot when Kotzen and Saraceno were in the group because their style of music had gone the way of the dodo.


Peace,

[Swede]

9. Dimebag from Pantera could play the guitar.

Play it real good.

[slutticus]

13. R.I.P......

:(

[Zomby Woof]

11. From that era

Better to stick with Slayer's "Reign In Blood", Morbid Angel's "Altars of Madness", Sanctuary's "Into The Mirror Black", or Sepultura's "Beneath The Remains".

[RandomKoolzip]

25. Yup.....

There was good stuff going on underground, on indie labels and the more adventurous majors, but the tight pants and makeup crew grabbed all the glory (and all of the retrospetive raspberries).

[HughBeaumont]

68. DBC's "Universe", Death's "Spiritual Healing"

Testament's "New Order", Anthrax's "Among the Living", Voivod's . . . well ANY pre-"Angel Rat" Voivod kicks ass.

See we have some metalheads from WAY back.

Can you believe that next year, Reign in Blood will be 20 YEARS OLD . . . HOW did that happen?

[Zomby Woof]

72. Don't forget Carcass' "Necroticism: Descanting The Insalubrious"

Fuck... 20 years. Slayer has never sold out either. :toast:

[HughBeaumont]

74. I can STILL listen to "Forbidden Evil" to this day.

AND Nuclear Assault.

Ah, to have 3 feet of hair again . . .

:banghead: :cry:

[RandomKoolzip]

14. They were all talented, but none of them were inspired.

There's a huge difference.

[battleknight24]

15. What exactly do you mean?

Did they have the talent but not do much with it?

[LastKnight]

18. theres a difference with having textbook skills and having a genuine feel

for the insturment.

one way to put it is that they just didnt have the drive that other people did, and thats not really quite the right way to explain it either.

who knows, its hard to explain lol.

[RandomKoolzip]

20. Lemme try to explain......

What the hair metal bands of the 80's tried to do was inculcate a genre which, at its core, is a physical, vital form, and apply all sorts of pop buffering to it (heavy production values, note-perfect harmonies, sugary non-blues Euro-rooted melodies, synths, sky-high vibrato on the vocals, effects-processed guitars, etc), thereby subverting the rock process (four or five dudes (or dudettes!) on guitar, bass, and drums playing in an aggressive, expressive manner, together, as a unit). This is akin to trying to start a fire with wet wood; Rock will not be acheived with those pop bufferings in place, no matter how heavy the band may sound live in a room together (or in a small club).

Out of the dozens of bands which littered this scene, a few mangaed to cut through the digital haze and lay down some ball-dragging tunage (AC/DC, a few Cinderella tunes, a couple Ratt tunes, etc.), usually by ditching the over-processed matrices through which the sweaty body of Rock was expected to pass during the 80's, and reingratiating themselves with Blues form and the Rock process. However, for every AC/DC, there were twelve Bulletboys, ten Dangerous Toys, and a Slaughter in a pear tree to fuck the whole thing up.

The sad part is that almost all of the musicians involved with this genre were facile on their chosen instruments, but chose to apply those gifts to a kind of harmonic climate that a) dated quckly, and b) wouldn't make the fucking Osmonds terribly upset. There was nary a trace of blues in the works of the aforementioned bands (Okay, maaaaaaaaybe Guns 'n' Roses), and any "danger" (not "Danger Danger") that may have leaked out of such a bloodless aesthetic was almost purely accidental.

And most importantly, the songwriting was poor. Think of the big hits of that era and how many could possibly covered by a polka band. That's right, ZERO. The melodies were just not strong enough to stand as irreducible compositions in the way that say, oh, Hendrix's were...or Thin Lizzy's, or the best of Blue Oyster Cult, or Sabbath. What you had later, in the flowering of the power ballad, was this particluar crux in estrus. And all the musicians of that era who were able to play their axes were forced to knuckle under to the AESTHETIC or go broke. Fortunately, the crew at SST (Black Flag, Husker Du, etc.) were grinding THEIR axes underground, carving out an alternative touring and distribution circuit that had never existed before, so that the more inspired of those contemporary rock artists would have space in the marketplace (even if it was a crawlspace) to practice and refine their art.

PS: I forgot to mention the "speed" or "Real" metal bands that were unlucky enough to be rockin' in a climate hostile to rockers: Metallica, Trouble, The Melvins, Motorhead, Megadeth, Watchtower, Maiden, etc..(Nowadays the "Real" metal is called "Stoner Rock," but it shares the same aesthetic.)

[Nevernose]

31. RKZ: Best fuckin' post I've ever read

Thank you for being coherent enough to write in such an accurate manner of how I feel about "hair" bands.

[RandomKoolzip]

61. Thank you.

I knew these rockcrit skills would come in handy one day.....

[Bridget Burke]

55. Ah--the polka test!

I'm reminded of Brave Combo, the band from Denton, Texas, that invented Nuclear Polka. The founder became interested in polkas as an alternative to the "oh so hip" music of the day. But the University of Texas branch in Denton (formerly North Texas State) has a famous music school & the skill level of student bands is very high. Brave Combo performs a stunning variety of music but continues to play at polka festivals & has won 2 Grammies for Best Polka Album.

So, even Brave Combo might not be able to do much with the tunes you discuss. That's sad.

However, I must admit some prejudice against the genres you know so well. I came out of hippy folk, blues, country & "roots" music & tended to lump those loud commercial bands together. (Why was Little Feat not HUGE? Lowell George at his peak could knock any guitar player off the stage.) Punk was a breath of fresh air even if, on my visits to the punk record shop, I checked out Nick Lowe & Snakefinger first. Perhaps I need to listen to some of my non-favorite cable music channels to remedy the blanks in my musical background.

[tigereye]

64. if you are thinking about Brave Combo

rather than all that sad 80s hair silliness, you are way ahead, IMO. Although perusal of what you missed might amuse you! I agree about Lowell George.

[tigereye]

62. as usual you hit it right on the head!

:thumbsup:

[RandomKoolzip]

63. Muchas gracias.

[HughBeaumont]

73. NObody brought da pussy like Kik Tracee or Roxy Blue, yo.

Post of the month.

[enigmatic]

16. Perfect

Talented, but bloodless.

[RandomKoolzip]

23. Hey, I used that word in my reply!

Again....I think my mother told me she had a long lost son in Cnada somewhere....

[enigmatic]

26. Could be

:)

[LastKnight]

17. alot of em were very talented

knew their scales, modes, chords, arpeggios very well. they just put it forward in a way that didnt last.

and they looked kinda funny, too. thats probably why we make fun of them the most.

[Kire]

29. technical and talented are often diametrically opposed

[Clark2008]

21. C.C. was a sweet and intelligent man.

My best friend in college dated Ricky Rockett (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know) and I got to know the band.

C.C. was very different. I liked him. He and I would talk while everyone else partied like idiots.

Oh - and the band is Living Colour. The SHOW was "In Living Color." :7

[battleknight24]

27. (OP) Sorry about that...

:(

[Clark2008]

28. Oh, no big deal, hon.

Just correcting your reference.

You're talking to a true chick who knows that Keith Moon named Led Zeppelin and that Axl Rose married Don Everley's daughter (and I've been over for dinner).

I have a past that I'm glad is past, but wouldn't change it for the world.

:hi:

[WCGreen]

22. Been playin Guitar since the Eagles first began .....

And I can tell you one thing, the metal bands lacked a sense of soul or heart if you will. Sure they were fast, and usually furious, but it takes a certain touch to bring out emotion....

It was just rock music...

The greatest guitar player from that era was Eddie Van....

He was very proficient, had a huge heart and a sense of melody that was lost on all the others......

Slash, somewhat, but the others....

Craftsmen, not artists......

[EC]

30. All the way through this thread

I'm thinking, where's Eddie? Thanks....

His music was his heart, I always smiled when watching him, because he would be grinning from ear to ear.....

[6000eliot]

32. Unfortuantely, Eddie's style

spawned a whole lot of hacks who learned his tricks but didn't have an iota of his talent.

[WCGreen]

34. good point.....

[6000eliot]

33. The Eagles had Joe Walsh for their last two albums

And he's one of the best there is.

[WCGreen]

37. Yep....

I remember him with James Jang...

Seems to me.....

Funk 49

[6000eliot]

38. "Funk #49" is a ball to play.

[WCGreen]

40. I know....

I was noodlin around with it the other night....

[Nevernose]

36. Greatest Country/Western band of all time

Though I won't ever knock their music, because they were feelinh it.

(except of course for the general knocking I reserve for all c/w singers, even the ones I like)

[WCGreen]

39. Just mentioned them as a time frame....

Although they did feel their music.....

[6000eliot]

43. They weren't C & W, though.

They are a country-rock hybrid. George Jones is country.

[Nevernose]

48. They were clopser to country than to rock

Buddy Holly versus early Ray Charles.

In the end, though, it doesn't really matter what style Linda Ronstadt's Backup Band played in -- they were awesome, and a hell of a lot loser to what I think of as country than to rock 'n roll (Buddy Holly vs. early Ray Charles -- both were incredible, but one shared a lot more tradition with country music than the other).

[6000eliot]

51. I would put Buddy Holly and Ray Charles on one side

and Hank Williams on the other. Hank had soul, though, as much as any rock and roll or rhythm and blues singer.

[WCGreen]

49. Yea, Poco, Flying burito Bros. Grateful Dead,

they were all a combination of country rock and folk

[6000eliot]

52. Dillard and Clark and The Byrds were earlier

"Sweetheart of the Rodeo" is a great country-rock album.

[Bridget Burke]

66. Not to mention "Wheatstraw Suite" by The Dillards.

Recommended by Townes Van Zandt to a silly hippy chick who was a big Burritos fan...

John Einarson's "Desperados--The Roots of Country Rock" gives a lot of background on the (mostly) LA scene at the time. It almost made me stop hating the Eagles. Darn you, Gram, for OD'ing & leaving far too early.

(Meanwhile, down in Texas, Doug Sahm was playing country, rock, blues, Cajun & Tejano.)

[6000eliot]

75. Thanks for the recommendation.

Sahm was in San Francisco for a while, too.

[enigmatic]

42. I gotta disagree here

The Flying Burrito Brothers have that title:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Burrito_Brothers



RIP Gram Parsons

[6000eliot]

46. "Sin City" is one of the great rock songs IMHO.

[enigmatic]

47. Absolutely

The 2 Gram Parsons-involved albums are masterpieces; I've never heard heard anybody do "Wild Horses" better than they did, and yeah, including The Stones...

[6000eliot]

50. Absolutely.

But the song was written for him to sing. I think he did the definitive version of the song.

[Nevernose]

35. THEY AIN'T GOT NO SOUL

THEY AIN'T GOT NO SOUL.

My step-dad ( a pro jazz musician) said "they ain't got no soul" and he would apply that moniker to anyone, regardless of genre who didn't have, well, "soul." I won't give you the dead man's vitae here, but rest assured that he played with them all, and if you look hard enough you can find his name on a few liner notes.

It's impossible to describe, exactly, except maybe as being true to the roots of Blues and other Black music. I do know that while Nat King Cole was a little too fast tempo for his liking, he at least appreciated the of Black Sabbath. He loathed Mariag Carey, who, while technically accurate, just wasn't "feelin' it." Celine Dion fit in the same category. When I played Anthrax or (early) Metallica or especially Black Sabbath for him, although he didn't like the style, he appreciated the fact that they (and not even just I were feeling it.

Carl Sagan once asked: Can you prove that you loved your father? How to demonstrate in a manner beyond the merely qualitative that something is good or not? Why are Shakespeare and Eliot so respected, while so many lesser powts rightfully fall by the way?

[PittPoliSci]

41. No soul? who needs it.

"Soul" or "feeling" is a very overrated characteristic that people like to apply to music.

Dream Theater has no soul, but they are comprised of the most talented musicians this planet has ever seen. Their songs are intricate and complicated like nobody with "soul" could ever dream.

Besides, music without soul is then presumably evil, which is what makes all great music.:evilgrin:

[WCGreen]

53. Technique does nt always translate into

artistic endevours......

[asthmaticeog]

54. A refinement, if I may:

Technique ----> craft.

Soul ----> art.

Craft can exist with or without art.

Art can exist with or without craft.

[WCGreen]

56. Well Said.....

[tigereye]

65. no, no, no

no, no, no. Sigh. The best musicians have both. Please listen to some really good blues and jazz and then tell me that is true. I.e, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, John Hiatt, Billie Holiday, Betty Carter,Luna, Muddy Waters. Hmmm. Joan Jett, the early rockers. I could go on all day! Be glad to make you a play list, maybe I should. Trouble maker!

:spank:

and the role of art is to teach AND delight, as well.

[PittPoliSci]

67. i wouldn't consider half of those people the best muscians!

:evilgrin:

[tigereye]

71. ah

then you need some schoolin, young Padewan! But, ah, you're just messin' with your elders! ;)

And whom,pray tell, would you consider "better" than those I have named? Talking Heads,Bowie, The Replacements probably qualified as soulful, as well. I'll have to call upon RKZ to make this argument more effectively ( and rife with rock crit speak) than I ever could.

[PittPoliSci]

77. who do i consider better?

just about anyone else who's ever picked up a guitar :evilgrin:

alright now i'm just doin' it to mess with you. :crazy:

[progmom]

76. you are a bad bad man

:spank:

[stlsaxman]

57. Let's not forget Fishbone-

they're first 3 albums were awesome, funny, inspirational and subversive....

a blend of metal/ska/funk and latin street jazz. and if you'd seen them in concert in their prime- sheesh!

these guys would literally be jumping all over each other, tossing instruments back and forth AND playing the intricate music perfectly... god almighty- that was a BAND!

too bad some or one of them fell in with a cult and they fell apart... they tried it again after that but it was never the same.

[fudge stripe cookays]

79. "Truth and Soul"--

One of my top 10 of all time.

FSC

[Greyhound]

58. Not a metal/big hair band, but Bun E. Carlos was one of the..

most underrated/unknown drummers around. :headbang:

[lildreamer316]

60. Song for you:

Just to give you a giggle; in case you never got a chance to hear it
Poision:Sexual Thing.
It may not be heavy but I can sure dance the hell out of it onstage
They don't call me the hair band queen for nothing........(ask me!)

[WeRQ4U]

69. Charlie Benante from Anthrax

I always liked him.

I always thought that Slash was pretty good too.

[MN ChimpH8R]

70. Some of the individual musicians had some real chops

i.e., they were very technically proficient but played generic cookie-cutter music. To me the perfect example was Steve Vai. He could play absolutely anything on any kind of guitar but his albums always seemed lame to me. He couldn't come up with a memorable tune. The flash was impressive, but you couldn't remember a note of if half an hour later. He was like a man who could speak twenty languages and had nothing interesting to say in any of them. He was terrific in Zappa's band, where he had to operate in FZ's structures.

Living Color is another issue. Those guys were phenomenal technicians and had something to say with their music. Great and very underappreciated band.