If you could remove religion from the world....

[LynzM]

Ok, let me clarify. Not just get rid of 'religions' as they exist, but get rid of the basic need/desire/whatever-you-want-to-call-it that seems innate to the human race, to want to be part of something bigger, in whatever form it takes for you, to have spiritual guidance, with all the pain and hatred and conflict that it can also cause....

If you could take the desire/need away from the human race, would you?

[DS1]

1. something else would just replace it

probably a global war over the best parking spots

[LynzM]

3. You may be right....

Maybe people just need something to fight about, fundamentally? Ick.

[DS1]

10. It's parking lots where I work

seniority is KING, and if someone that's been there 34 years sees someone sneaking into the super-double-special-we-love-you-club parking lot, the head of the operation will be on the phone with your managers in seconds.

I walk to work. :-)

[UrbScotty]

2. Religion is a big part of why I'm a Democrat.

If not for my belief in Jesus's teachings, I'd be greedy and self-centered.

In other words, I'd be a Republican.

[LynzM]

5. LOL

Still, do you think it would be possible to teach compassion, empathy, and love for others outside of the context of religion?

[UrbScotty]

17. Of course.

No matter what you believe, you can feel good about helping others. I often feel a sense of satisfaction volunteering, for example, even when it has nothing to do with religion.

[libhill]

11. What?

I thought the Repukes had a monopoly on religion, and the rest of us are Gawdless heathens? I'll be ding danged!

[LynzM]

19. I know, right?

You're a liberal, you can't possibly be following the things Jesus talked about. Shame on you! :rofl:

[libhill]

22. That's right, by crackies

always done heard tell them thar Demoncrats be godless commnists, what believe all that crap what Groucho Marx wrote. When I married my first cousin, she done told me them folks don't even believe that Saydamn Whosane done did 9/11 -

[LeftyDarthBrodie]

81. Very funny

but the spelling was way too good. You'd get spotted in a second at FR.

[libhill]

83. Well, dang

And I tried so hard, lol. Maybe if I was to drive over there in a pick 'em up truck, with some Red Man chawin' tobaccy on the dashboard?

[LeftyDarthBrodie]

126. That will do

I guess...

[elshiva]

40. AMEN!

:loveya:

[LastKnight]

96. no. id just remove the part that makes people believe the BS when somone

tries to whore religion to gain support. so no, i wouldnt elminate it, just make people a bit more skeptical about those constantly trumpeting their faith, but not leading by example.

edit: this is in the wrong spot, this was supposed to be a reply to the original thread. sorry.

[rwheeler31]

4. Getting rid of organized religious groups which are

now just business groups would be good. Real spirituality, and personal reflection would be good.

[LynzM]

7. I agree....

But how do you accomplish that? How do you open people's eyes to look beyond the words and at the meaning that most religions teach?

[libhill]

6. I'd do it in a heartbeat

and never ever, look back. Religion is the root of all evil, not money.

[LynzM]

9. I'd call it a tie, myself

And religion in conjunction with greed, very bad stuff, there...

[Telly Savalas]

25. What was the religious component...

of things like the Khmer Rouge killing a third of the population of Cambodia in the 1970's? The Rwandan genocide?

A lot of very evil things have been done in the name of religion, but a lot of very evil things have been done which have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Probably most common is evil that is just done for the hell of it, but is given some religious window-dressing to try to justify it.

[LynzM]

28. True, and scary.

Maybe it is as much a part of human nature to perpetuate bad things against other humans :( I mean, how much of 'growing up' is just learning how to suppress/control urges that aren't socially acceptable?

[libhill]

30. Communism

has been compared to a religion, which it is, of sorts. As was Nazism and the psycho belief in an "Aryan Master Race". And people were prepared to die for these philosophies, even as people have died for their religious faith.

[Telly Savalas]

50. So sorry to get all GD on you in the Lounge...

but it seems you're pointing the finger at dogmatism which is pretty distinct from religion. On can be devoutly religious without being dogmatic about it (e.g. the Unitarians).

Even in the case of Rwanda, it's hard to discern a dogma which guided the genocidaires. There wasn't an elaborate worldview behind the Hutu slaughter beyond "Tutsis are cockroaches and must be exterminated."

Or there's more mundane forms of evil, like a mugger shooting somebody over forty bucks, which can't immediately be attributed to some single greater cause. It's a pretty complicated world, and I think trying to lay all its problems on a singe source radically oversimplifies things.

[LynzM]

61. I agree...

(I wasn't sure if I should post this here or GD, but this seemed safer ;))

There certainly is a lot of 'evil' in the world that isn't tied to a religion, and I'm not sure if you were talking to me in your last line, but I hope I didn't come across as trying to lay all the world's problems at the feet of religion. I just was pondering what religion means to society and if society would function without it, for better or worse, and how things might change...

[Telly Savalas]

118. Nah, it was addressing a point originally made in...

post #6: "Religion is the root of all evil."

Given that this thread hasn't blown up into a huge flamewar, it's clear that posting in the Lounge was a good decision, cause you know it would have gotten really messy really fast in GD.

[LynzM]

119. Yup....

I'm slightly amazed that it didn't blow up here, but really, I'm not criticizing a religion or religions in general, more posing a philosophical question. At least, seems that way to me....

[Nikia]

8. It is human to want to be part of something bigger

Whether that is practicing a religion, belonging to a political party or taking part in a nation wide protest, or working for a large organization, most people want to be part of something bigger and it is a strong motivator in many aspects of a person's life. This need is good for society because the individual will not act just for his or herself and those that he or she personally knows but for others. This promotes greater compassion. It also encourages people to do things like recycle, an activity that really doesn't mean much if only one individual does it but a lot if many individuals do it.

[LynzM]

14. I agree, Nikia

I just wonder if we would do better to all take our own responsibility for what happens in the world, you know? How would that change and shape society? As you say, realizing your contributions to a bigger group motivates people and promotes compassion, at least in theory...

[barb162]

12. I don't think it's possible as long as people fear dying and

nothingness. People need the belief in a hereafter I think. If you take away religion you take that away so I wouldn't do it.

[LynzM]

15. That's a good point...

What about taking away that fear, instead? Then what? :)

[barb162]

20. Well didn't Mao basically try that for how many years

and also Pol Pot in Cambodia? I think religion just goes underground when people try to erase it. There's something about God and a hereafter that is soothing. I have noticed that ethics and applying a golden rule doesn't seem to have enough of a pull for most people...there has to be some sort of fear factor involved and again we end up with religion. Do you know of some system or ethic that somehow replaced religion in some society. I just think since the beginning of human history there has always been religion to deal with the fear of death in every culture and society. Perhaps I am wrong. You know, there are a lot of science types with multiple PhDs who are still deeply religious. Religion has a tremendous pull.

[LynzM]

24. Honestly, I don't know

And I definitely do realize that it's not a possible thing for us to do. Just on a totally surreal level, if you could somehow do it, what do you think would happen? Would that lack of fear lead to worse situations than the 'my god is better than your god' situations that we see now? I don't disagree that religion has a tremendous pull, I'm just wondering what would happen if you got rid of that... :) Been mulling this over on and off, and just decided to toss it out and see what the Lounge thinks!

[barb162]

32. I'd like to see it tried and I think some sort of ethics system would

have to replace it. I still don't know how you deal with people's fear of death though and religion might automatically spring up again.

[libhill]

27. Lack of religious affiliation

and fear of death, don't necessarily go hand in hand. I'm agnostic, yet I don't really fear death. I believe that we continue to exist on some plain after death. Despite the fact that I don't buy into the Judaeo-Christian ideas of heaven / hell / Big Booger Man in the Sky.

[caty]

13. I was taught to be

ethical. Same theory as morality, but without the religious slant. People just seem to have the need to prove that they are better than others in one way or another--religion, power, money, attractiveness, location, etc. There will always be a fight over something. It's never ending.

[LynzM]

16. You should talk to DS1

Upthread :) He said the same thing, but about parking lots...

Sad, if that is what motivates us :(

[usedtobesick]

18. what a great question

I was having this conversation or a variation of it just the other night with my SO. I would have to say no, leave it there.

I think that for every nut job or person that uses the excuse of "faith" to hurt another or subjugate another, "faith" incites another to do good. To feed the poor, give someone a hand, or do something good. Not that atheists or agnostics or secular Humanists don't do the same without that "religious faith" that hold them accountable to some higher power/purpose/being. I think they might agree their desire to help others is based on a accountability to a higher or the better good of Humanity. I'd like to think the dumb asses that use faith as a club would someday meet the "maker of their faith" and get some major cosmic spanking. It just kills me to see what people do in the name of their gods. I doubt any of them are amused.

[LynzM]

26. Interesting, isn't it?

I mean, just to think about it theoretically....

I do wonder if the amount of help that comes out of it outweighs the pain it causes. Not just the stuff done in the name of gods, but the repression in so many forms, and things like that, too...

"It just kills me to see what people do in the name of their gods. I doubt any of them are amused."

Spot on, dude.

[Schema Thing]

21. Yes. God yes!

I see very little good coming from any of the things you mentioned.

My guess is that children raised w/o presupposed beliefs/teachings about god/spirit world would have damn little desire or need to fill their time with angst about said spookisms.

Thank the god who does nothing that I got of the fundamentalist cult I was in before my daughter was infected!

[LynzM]

29. I'm glad you got out, too...

I saw several friends change entirely and become too good to spend time with me after such things... makes me sad. For me, spirituality (if you want it) should be about embracing yourself, the best in others, nature, and making the best of all these things. Not repressing all manner of things and segregating yourself. (Absolutely NOT saying that any or even most religions do this, but some groups definitely operate that way!)

[jpgray]

23. So long as man remains free...

...he strives for nothing so incessantly and so painfully as to find some one to worship.

I think that's paradoxically how we are. If it wasn't religion, it'd be something else.

(I need to read that book again. Who'd have thought a conservative Christian could so perfectly skewer organized religion?)

[LynzM]

31. I think the whole quote is worth reposting....

"This is the significance of the first question in the wilderness, and this is what Thou hast rejected for the sake of that freedom which Thou hast exalted above everything. Yet in this question lies hid the great secret of this world. Choosing "bread," Thou wouldst have satisfied the universal and everlasting craving of humanity -- to find someone to worship. So long as man remains free he strives for nothing so incessantly and so painfully as to find someone to worship. But man seeks to worship what is established beyond dispute, so that all men would agree at once to worship it. For these pitiful creatures are concerned not only to find what one or the other can worship, but to find community of worship is the chief misery of every man individually and of all humanity from the beginning of time. For the sake of common worship they've slain each other with the sword. They have set up gods and challenged one another, "Put away your gods and come and worship ours, or we will kill you and your gods!" And so it will be to the end of the world, even when gods disappear from the earth; they will fall down before idols just the same. "

--from Dostoevsky's classic The Brothers Karmazov. Book 4. Chapter 5, "The Grand Inquisitor"


I think you just inspired my next trip to the library :)

[usedtobesick]

34. Dostoevsky is a great read

I love Crime and Punishment as well. Great incite to the dark hearts of men.

[jpgray]

37. But to answer the question

I'd say no. Not only would we cease being human if we lacked that drive, but I know many perfectly nice people who get a lot out of religion. I am an atheist myself, but it's nearly impossible to rhetorically attack the offensive and hypocritical targets you want to hit with regards to religion without hurting or offending some of those perfectly nice, innocent people along the way. It's collateral damage like any other--dropping the heavy munitions on organized religion is a very delicate business, because people for whom greed and power are not motivations always get hurt in the process.

[LynzM]

39. True, we would not be 'human' as we know it now

And certainly, I would never bash a religion to try to get to those who are offensive and hypocritical, specifically. You couldn't actually do it... I just wonder what would happen. But a couple other people made the good point upthread that it's not so much the religion, but the "us vs. them", 'tribalism' that seems to underlie so much of this, and religion is an outlet for those deeper-seated things. What do you think?

[jpgray]

65. I wonder if ants ever talk about overthrowing the monarchy one day

:D Because I think the 'us vs. them' is as biologically ingrained in us as the hive society is in ants. We've made vast improvements and great progress in isolated systems when it comes to the impact of that 'us vs. them' drive, but the gap between rich and poor nations for example is widening despite the promises of globalization, and I'm not convinced suffering on a global caused by that drive has gone appreciably down. I'd rather say it used to be more diffuse and therefore nearby, whereas now it's more concentrated and far enough off not to be too troublesome. In my view we've still got the manor that holds a few individuals with great quality of life, and the fields where the majority suffer to make that life possible--it's just on a bigger scale now. And I think the 'us vs. them' drive is a big part of the rationalization for that system, so if we are making progress we have a long way to go.

[LynzM]

72. Hrm....

I'll have to think about that one and get back to you! ;)

Can I just say, I love all the brain-power and creativity that is here on DU, and in the Lounge? Thank you!

[usedtobesick]

49. It's such a shame that people wrap them selves

in their religion, flag, race or gender. it does make it so hard to attack the system without people who are in it, feeling attacked as well. We all see the abuse this administration and it's minions perpetrate in the name of God, Country, and Democracy. And under that umbrella fall some otherwise pleasant people. It is amazing what people can rationalize.

[jpgray]

55. Well, I see it like this: I've bought t-shirts made from slave labor

I personally through the use of a car, electronics and other items of consumption am helping to perpetuate ecological devastation, and a kind of economic slavery for people in poorer countries. A kid from Beijing who worked a twelve hour day to make my boxers might think it's amazing that I can rationalize all my vapid consumption, or a student in Iran might wonder how Americans, 4% of the world's population, can justify making up 25% of the world's energy consumption. My lifestyle, therefore, is also to some degree maintained by a system whose abuses I wish to disassociate myself from.

[usedtobesick]

67. I guess I need to remember the adage

people who live in glass houses should not throw stones... it seems so much easier to point at others faults and forget my own "rationalizations." Is that a word? But I see your point. Sometimes good people do bad things for what they believe are acceptable reasons. Is my living La Vida Loca any different then their justification of their support for this war or this administration, I want to believe my indignation is more nobel and righteous but that's what this thread is about at some level I guess.

[Chovexani]

33. Religion isn't the problem

Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think, religion isn't the problem. Tribalism, the us vs. them mentality, is the problem. And unfortunately that's just human nature.

Take away religion and people will fight over race. Make everyone the same race and they'll fight over gender. Make them the same gender, and they'll fight over this side of the river vs. that side of the river, etc. ad nauseum.

[usedtobesick]

35. Earth would be a great place if

people were not here to screw it up.

[LynzM]

36. Yeah, that does seem to be the concensus

Still, it makes me sad :( I mean, I guess competition makes sense from a survival standpoint, but it sure can suck when we try to integrate it into the structure of the world these days.

And, I like your username, but I don't think I ever told you! :)

[Chovexani]

38. Hey thanks

It's a Romani word meaning "witch". :hi:

[LynzM]

41. Cool...

Why do I feel like Chovexani was one of the characters in the Matrix? Am I making that up?

I googled it and found a group that does some interesting looking dance...

[Chovexani]

43. Sounds like it would be a Matrix character

But no, I don't think it is. :)

That group is very cool btw...they are a gothic belly dancing troupe believe it or not. I saw them once and they are very neat.

[LynzM]

45. Yeah, that's the one I found!

I saw it and was like.... "people do that?" :rofl: Not in a bad way, just a "one more thing I never knew existed" way!

I wonder why I think it's a name from the Matrix. Hrm.

[elshiva]

42. Religion keeps me alive, I can't imagine my life without

religion. I think prejudices and hatreds would be here without religion. Human beings can use anything at hand as a weapon :(

[LynzM]

46. True, they certainly can

I'm glad religion does good things for you :) For me, it didn't. But to each her own!

Sad, that humans can and will use many means to hurt each other :(

[elshiva]

48. Hon, I am sorry. As a gay person I sympathesize...

Yes, it can be horrible to be in a homophobic church, but it can be life giving to be around gay-affirming churches. I am an Episcopalian and know some openly gay priests, so it is exhilarating for me, but yes I have heard the awful stories. :( No church should ever be so rejecting, hateful and violent!

[LynzM]

53. I'm so glad you have a place that embraces you!

That's great! :bounce:

I never experienced it on a discriminatory level, more like hangups that I now have in my own head that I'm having a heck of a time getting rid of, even when there's no longer a reason for me to hold onto them, or at least I don't *think* they should be there....

Whee!! Aren't our minds fun? :)

[libhill]

86. That's because most of us

are brainwashed into some religious system or other almost from birth. All the logic and reasoning in the world can combine to tell you that Christianity is a false religion, derived from ancient pagan beliefs, but it's still very hard to get all of the "Bible God" stuff out of your head. I know exactly what you're going through, but try to trust in reason and logic.

[NNadir]

44. Yeah, but that's easy for me to say, I'm an atheist.

Obviously I derive zero from religion. All it does is scare me, to be honest. Well some time it revolts me too.

But I don't care too much what others do, so long as they leave me alone.

[LynzM]

52. True....

Probably easier to contemplate when it wouldn't affect you so directly :)

[Redstone]

47. No. Absolutely not. Just because I don't need that kind

of belief to make my way, there are a HELL of a lot of other people who DO seem to need it.

And why would I want to deny them something that comforts them?

And, in case I'm misunderstanding your question, there's also the fact that the "being part of something bigger" that you mention also includes the human desire to be part of a community (which--flash of cognition right here--may be the basis for religions anyway), which same desire for community has given us things like towns, garden clubs, and DU.

Got all that? I f you do, good. Maybe you'll be able to explain to me some day just what it was that I just said.

Redstone

[LynzM]

54. I was wondering if you'd show up!

Yeah, what I was saying was basically, what if you get rid of the fact that people DO need or want it? What if it ceased to be a comfort for people?

I agree that community is a good thing, in many and varied forms, for sure. Community is a human drive as well, as far as I can tell, for most people.

Sometime, I'll try explaining it to you ;)

[Redstone]

68. I think I was trying to say that the impulses that

make people want a sense of community might be the same as the ones (or the basis for the ones) that make belonging to a religion attractive to them.

Does that make sense? I believve we might be saying the same thing in different ways here, but I'm weary, so we'll discuss it later, actually sooner I hope because it's been a while since we've seen you guys. I have a business contact for your husband who may or may not be useful to your hubby's company, but will have to send him that info later as we're going to Lake Compounce tomorrow for the kids to have fun and me to get bored but smile anyway because I wouldn't want to ruin the kids' fun with my envy because I can't go on any of those neck-snapping rides, though why would I want to anyway, because I don't believe that any of them could be near as, I don't know what the word is, exciting is way too positive, as free rappelling from a helicopter or, as you've probably experienced, slipping off a position and twanging up the rope's stretch factor against a good belay and whacking your nose against the damn cliff.

Redstone

[LynzM]

71. Yeah, I think we are

Let's talk about that sometime, shall we? The little one's been asking for a beach day :)

Have fun, even if you can't ride the rides, which as you say, don't hold a candle to the fun of slipping and smashing your knuckles between your ass and a big rock, since your pack was too heavy to take on rappel and should have been lowered, but your dumb self didn't realize that, and will now bear both that knowledge and the scars to prove it forever. Talk to you soon!

[mvd]

51. I wouldn't mind if organized religion went away

But as a spiritual person, I would not take away all desire.

[LynzM]

56. That's an interesting distinction

If you leave people as spiritual, and people congregate by nature, is 'organized religion' avoidable?

[mvd]

58. Well..

in organized religion, everyone in the religion often is encouraged to believe the same things, right down to the little stuff. I don't consider that to be a positive.

[mvd]

64. I said I wouldn't mind if organized religion disappeared, but..

I think I should be clearer. I would keep religions where there is a healthy exchange of ideas. I don't consider my own Catholic faith to have that enough - plus, I have some very different ideas from even the Lutherans and Episcopalians.

Interesting topic you created! :hi:

[izzybeans]

57. do you mean like create a pure group? It sounds a bit hairy to me. nt

[LynzM]

59. Not sure what you mean...

By a 'pure group'. No, I just meant to remove the need/desire from the human race, period. *Poof* Suddenly, religion holds no attraction for people. However you want to envision it, suddenly, it no longer is part of people's lives...

[izzybeans]

74. They will place their faith elsewhere I guess. The same issue with

division would exist. Instead of religions battling; it would be professions, or ideological factions, or my science is bigger than your science, my love is bigger than your love, etc.

[hyphenate]

60. I would not

remove it. But I must clarify my response.

Religion, in one form or another, has been around as long as mankind has been alive. For people in prehistoric times, there was a need to know why certain things happened, how they came into being, and there was in general a fear of the unknown until they could put it into context in their lives.

Mythology, paganism and other religions helped to explain certain elements of life to many ancient people, because it provided a source to them of why so many contradictory things happened seemingly in the same space and time. All around the known world at that time, each and every separate culture concocted their own version of why things were happening, and as we all know now, many of these legends, superstitions and mythologies have come down through the centuries to show us even now how the thought processes of people worked when science was in its infancy.

Religion has stayed with us for millennia, partly to erase fears of the unknown and partly because many people want to have the safety net of religion to ease and soothe their fears in troubled times.

On the other hand, religion has been well used and abused by many who have been in power through these same number of years. The Spanish Inquisition, the Holy Crusades, the fallout of Britain with the Pope, the masses of pilgrims who fled Europe to come to America for freedom of religion--these are only a few of the many tragedies throughout history that have used religion and faith as weapons. But even more insidiously, many powerful leaders with the most dubious of reasons have used the promise of a heaven and an afterlife to keep people as indentured servants, slaves or other folks in drudgery, in horrendous conditions and in positions of servitude so horrendous that they soon die. That promise of something grander than their living hell made their time on earth seem worth the effort if they thought that what lay beyond the "mortal coil" was going to impart bliss on their spiritual life.

These two separate, but equal elements have formed the basis for religious worship as it exists today in its many incarnations, and today they are part and parcel of almost any organized religion. If you look at any of the modern religious leaders today, you can see the results: people will do just about anything, including strapping sticks of dynamite to their own bodies and blowing themselves up in a crowded room or plaza, to attain that final connection to the god of their religion. And while they are doing that, it becomes obvious that someone else, higher up in the hierarchy, is in an enviable position of power, sending others to their deaths, without doing it himself.

It happens in ALL religions. Here in the United States, it is obvious that the current government is holding that sceptre of power, who is a false "prophet" himself, wielding that power of "life and death" over the people below him. And many of the far right are showing that they share that power, by not sending their own children into the war zone, but using that hue and cry as a weapon to send others to their death, promising them such things as a better education (if they survive) and a better place in society "when they return" from the war zone. For many of the disadvantaged young people in our country, entering a career in the service is a chance to better themselves, but since we have become embroiled in this quagmire, it is more and more obvious that many may never survive to reap the benefits that they have been promised. Indeed, many of these kids have been given a false bill of goods, with the downside being that they will be lucky if they can at least survive their tours.

And of course, on the other side, those who are in power are doing the same thing in their own unique way, the main difference is that Islamic believers don't fear killing themselves, because mentally, their reward after death is far more enticing.

Now, as to why I would keep religion, it's not because I would want to use it as a weapon, but because everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want to believe. If someone believes that there is a heaven beyond their existence on earth, then why shouldn't they have the freedom to believe just that? If they want to believe that the winds around the world are exhaled by several wind demi-gods, why not? If they want to believe in cows being sacred, or that a wise man lives somewhere high in the mountains in Tibet, what business is it of mine to stifle their belief systems?

Regardless of whether science or faith controls a person's life, people are always going to have questions about some aspect of life, be it trying to understand how a molecule is formed, or how infinite the universe is or what lies beyond it, the philosophy of why "bad things happen to good people" or other unexplainable puzzle, no one is likely to change their minds about how or why it happens. It is just as easy to tell them it's okay for them to have whatever thoughts they wish about it, because sometimes, their answer is just as good as any other.

On the other hand, however, it is also a sticky wicket when these beliefs clash against known science. That's why I am so opposed to creationism. We have proven, beyond a doubt, through scientific methods, that the earth is billions of years old, and that man likely evolved from a common primate ancester millions of years ago. As we've bandied about for some time, evolution isn't really a "theory" as the regular definition of theory would indicate. Enough evidence exists to make it far more concrete principle, and far more likely an explanation of our presence on earth. But when old beliefs die hard, it is a clash between those who want to keep the attention of their "congregations" and those who want to release people from their misconceptions. Unfortunately, many in power in religious circles want to keep these people enthralled in their faith, and keep them from having thoughts that free them from association with real science. If everyone believed in the firmer and concrete laws of science and nature, there would certainly be less people in these religions, and therefore, less money in the coffers of people such as Falwell, Robertson and Graham. So they start using far more repulsive lies, preying on these people's intolerance, fears and beliefs, garnering more adherents along the way.

But if spirituality was unencumbered, without anyone calling the shots, so to speak, I think there would be less people involved in organized religion, and more people involved in the betterment of their race, and more people would be happy to know that their religious beliefs were theirs, and theirs alone.

I would not get rid of religion or faith--I would just set more limits on organized religion as it currently exists though, and make sure that ramming beliefs down the throats of others was prohibited to whatever extent I could control.

[LynzM]

66. Wow, hyphenate!

Thank you for the long and interesting read! You draw some parallels that I would not have thought of, which will make interesting food for thought while I try to go to sleep tonight (and I mean that in a good way!).

This sounds great: "But if spirituality was unencumbered, without anyone calling the shots, so to speak, I think there would be less people involved in organized religion, and more people involved in the betterment of their race, and more people would be happy to know that their religious beliefs were theirs, and theirs alone.

I would not get rid of religion or faith--I would just set more limits on organized religion as it currently exists though, and make sure that ramming beliefs down the throats of others was prohibited to whatever extent I could control."

I don't know how you'd achieve that, but if you could make that happen with a snap of the fingers... that would be wonderful!

[hyphenate]

122. Thank you

I do have a tendency in general to be long winded. :)

Yes....about that last part. I think that that is pretty much my aim within my own life. As many know, my best friend has gone the evangelical way, and I have endless frustration trying to separate her from that mentality, especially since she is highly intelligent, and a teacher. We have argued it many times, but I always seem to be the one to get emotional--and not in a good way. She can remain calm (I consider it smugness more than calm, though) while I rant about the aforementioned group of leaders and about GWB.

For her, entering into this group with open eyes has been beneficial. She has lost a lot of worry, she is no longer depressed, and she faces each day with some energy to please her "god." She's had some tragedies in her recent life, including her mom who passed away in May at the age of 85. So for her, her faith is definitely a good thing. However, in my eyes, I see her being subtlely controlled by these people and their beliefs and how she has since become more narrow minded and intolerant. While once upon a time she took people as they were, without any misgivings, without any bias, and without any intolerance. Since then, she sees anyone who is secular as a busybody, interfering through their political correctness, and sees groups such as homosexuals as "wrong" according to her sacred text of the bible.

I think my problem with the RR is that they live very contradictory lives. They are hypocrites, pulling out phrases from their "good book" to justify any of the opinions and judgements they possess. So it's alright to "love your neighbor," as long as he/she is not "different" in some fashion; it's alright to pray for atheists and agnostics--in fact you're doing them a favor by saving their soul for them; and it's okay to wage war on an enemy who happens to believe in a whole other set of rules, because they're heretics, blasphemers, and are influenced by the devil. As a matter of fact, one of the tenets these people share is the belief that Allah is, indeed, the devil--the god that is not the Xtian god. And don't get me started on the "literal translation" of that book! People who are intelligent, who can look at the world with a more cynical eye, can detect a high percentage of bullshit in the bible, and who understand that the book was written by the victors over several millennia, and which was never intended to be taken at face value. It is filled with allusions, metaphors and anectdotal stories which were merely intended to give a written history of their faith in a way that the uneducated could identify with. Using the texts as WMD, the Protestant leaders have made fundmentalism and evangelism into a cult like group which peddles intolerance, contradiction and hubris, and is embraced by far too many with faith today. It is how they can justify themselves, even while the rest of us show some logic in our thinking, by showing the emotional core which they all are living with every day. (I did another topic about a week ago on that in another thread.)

It is truly sad that many can not and will not see the differences between the lives they lead and the lives they should be living. Instead of going on about the faults of others, they need to be given a shock to their systems to wake them up from the complacency that they have exhibited in their goal to homogenize the rest of the world to their liking. Their hypocrisy needs to be called out, and we all need to have the patience to pointing out to them how dangerous and devastating their current thinking is. We'll be called many un-nice things as a result, but even a glimmer of doubt is all many of them need to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee before their beliefs make them any stronger a force to reckon with.

[LynzM]

124. I very much agree about the hypocrisy...

So many who call themselves 'of a particular faith' seem to fail to follow even the most basic tenets of that faith! "It is truly sad that many can not and will not see the differences between the lives they lead and the lives they should be living." Exactly.

I'm not as wordy as you in return, but I very much appreciate the time and thought you put into replying! :) Best of luck with your friend and finding a way to maintain the friendship in a way that's not trying on either of you!

[progmom]

62. Hmmmm. I think the pain and hatred and conflict comes from human nature.

It's just that people have manipulated religion to further their own causes.

Most religions, at their core, aren't about pain and hatred and conflict.

[LynzM]

69. True.

And sad :( This came up upthread, and I think it's an excellent point. Is religion just the outlet for deeper things that we, as humans, create? (Conflict, tribalism, hatred?) Most religions *aren't* about hatred and conflict, and it's sad that they get used that way.

[leftofthedial]

63. in a new york minute

[LynzM]

73. How long IS a NY Minute?

;)

[leftofthedial]

90. it is a slightly longer unit of time

than a happy hour

[rockymountaindem]

70. No way.

I like my religion.

[LynzM]

75. Ok

I'm glad you found something you like!

[WhollyHeretic]

76. Wow, I'm very impressed LynzM, you started a thread about religion

and it's full of reasoned discourse. It didn't break down to insults and anger on both sides. :applause:

[LynzM]

78. LOL, I know!

I actually told Briarius I'd take bets with him over how many posts before it got locked. I said 117, he said 50-something.... we'll see. But I do like to have an attempted at some interesting discussion now and then ;)

[WhollyHeretic]

80. When I saw it I thought it would be locked in 30-40

I figured you'd be flamed right away.

Good night

[LynzM]

77. Good Night, All!

I'm not ignoring anyone, but I need to get some sleep! I'll be back tomorrow, though, I promise!

[mvd]

79. Night!

Yep, it has remained civil - score one for the Lounge. :-)

I'm getting off now, too.

[Catch22Dem]

82. Without question I would

Smartest thing Jesse Ventura ever said was that organized religion is a crutch for the weak minded. People are so quick to credit some non-being for getting them through their trials and tribulations when it was they alone who had the power to do it. They don't give themselves enough credit.

[LynzM]

97. An interesting point

Part of what started this musing in my head was seeing the bumper sticker "In God We Trust, Not Ourselves"... which, ok, but at what point does trust translate into not taking responsibility and/or activism toward maintaining your own welfare? I don't think most people cross that line, but I definitely agree that sometimes it goes too far for my liking. In my opinion, if there's a god or gods, they probably don't care where you parked ;)

[swag]

84. That desire/need is part of something that is elemental to being human:

Having the requisite consciousness to figure out at some point the absolute and ultimate futility of everything.

There are a few ways to go with such a piece of information, the information that your existence is fleeting and ultimately meaningless. Some go on to joyous lives, some go to despair, some achieve great things, some make weird elaborate savior superhero shit up, or believe shit that others have made up and join with others to persecute the rest of us with their collective fantasies.

Would I take the consiousness of a very fundamental problem of existence away from the human race?

The human race will remove that and more soon enough. Let us live in agony and joy until we make ourselves extinct. Soon enough.

[jpgray]

85. I still say we're ants banging on about kicking the monarchy

Either that or we're back in the sophomore dorms--I brought the Dostoevsky quotes, you bring the punch and pie.

[swag]

88. "I'll be the burger, you can be the bun, girl."

The only ones still making noise about it are the ones who are still alive.

[LynzM]

98. Aw gee, swag

What a cheerful thing to read this morning ;)

Just teasin'. I can definitely see what you're saying, that it can be a coping mechanism for dealing with our mortality and all... the fact that maybe you are here just to be an organism, with no higher purpose, is awfully intimidating to deal with, if you've grown up with the idea of having a higher purpose. Or at least, it was somewhat so for me!

[swag]

105. Yeah, it was for me too.

Experiencing "now," be it though rock climbing, music, art, sex, love, beer, work, hanging with friends, can be a pretty good higher purpose, don't you think?

[LynzM]

107. I do think so

And I think there's plenty of potential to create your own higher purpose, to set a goal that you strive toward or a way you want to help others, yourself.

Sounds like a good list... do you climb? Or did you just remember that I do? :)

[swag]

114. I just remember that you do.

You remind me of a friend who lives in New Paltz, NY. She climbs. And rides a very fast motorcycle. And sings.

[LynzM]

116. Sweet :)

She sounds like a cool person, at least from that description! :)

[sundog]

87. i would just eliminate greed & guilt

and that would be the fastest route :7

[LynzM]

99. That'd be nice, huh?

:hi: dude!

Letting go of the guilt is really hard. Getting rid of the greed (for money, attention, power, what have you) would be excellent, I agree!

[MissMarple]

89. No, it is part of what makes us human.

[LynzM]

100. True, for sure

But then what does that mean about those who aren't spiritual or religious? Are they somehow less human? (I'm just playing devil's advocate! :))

[MissMarple]

120. Maybe it is just a matter of degree.

Perhaps we all have it a some level or another. I definitely think some people are inherently far more spiritual than others, and atheists aren't necessarily devoid of a religious gene.

:shrug:

[LSdemocrat]

91. I don't think you've got the reason for religion right

Many believers simply believe that their religion provides the true guidelines to achieve ultimate happiness/salvation/whatever.

[LynzM]

102. Good point, LS

I wonder what would replace that, if anything would... hrm.

[SOteric]

92. No.

Religion is part of the rich tapestry that is humanity and it’s history. Like politics, like wars, like diversity of country and culture it enriches us as Beings even while it rots and corrupts.

I know it’s popular to blame religion for all manner of ills. I feel that blame foolishly misplaced. At the base of every struggle, even those involving religion, are human emotions. The negative emotions of greed and fear and lust for power motivate manipulating vast numbers of a populous. Religion and the politics of power make that manipulation easy. People who assert that politics doesn’t manage this to the level of religion simply don’t know their history. We’re a bloody lot. Tyrants have inflicted more human suffering from seat of a regime than from the pulpit.

If you pull one thread or one colour in toto, from the whole of the weave of the tapestry you hopelessly harm the design and weaken the fabric.

We are both a product of what we have been and of what we can conceive of being.

If you don’t like the tapestry as it is, don’t pull the threads of the past. Find a way to reweave them more beautifully. You weave the future.

[LynzM]

103. Thanks for that, SOteric

I hope that I didn't come across as blaming religion for all the ills of the world... :( You're certainly right that a lot of terrible things have been done outside of the pulpit, so to speak. I really like this!: "We are both a product of what we have been and of what we can conceive of being."

[SOteric]

121. No, no. Not to worry.

You didn't come across that way.

I know it's unfortunately unusual, but I actually like to read through a thread before I respond to it. I made my comments about blame not so much as a result of your post but in indirect response to many of those who've posted subsequent.

Blaming religion is trendy just now. :shrug:

[LynzM]

125. Ok, gotcha

I, too, try to read the replies to a thread before replying :) There is so much interesting discussion and commentary on this thread, I've definitely learned a lot from reading what everyone has to say!

[noahmijo]

93. I would remove fundamentalism

Worshipping anything from God to Goats is not dangerous.

Getting it set in your head that if others do not follow you should die an infidels death THAT is dangerous.

As I have said before I am completely and utterly against fundamentalism of ANY kind anyplace.

[LynzM]

104. A good distinction

When does it cross the line? When does evangelism become zealotry?

[noahmijo]

123. When the smiling faces turn to angry ones

When it goes from "please join us cause we love you" to "join us or perish in the holy fire!!!"

[tjwmason]

94. No, no, no and again no.

I don't just say that because I am religious either.

Religion deals with the highest and the lowest considerations of humanity, and therefore it has always inspired us to our highest and our lowest achievements.

It was religion which lead to Michelangelo's Pieta, to St. Mark's Basillica, to the Pyramids, to the Taj Mahal, to Monteverdi's Vespers of the Blessed Virgin, and which leads daily to countless small acts of kindness and compassion.

It was also religion which lead to some of the worst atrocities known to man such as the Armenian massacre, the sack of Constantinople by the crusaders (over which even the Pope which sent the crusade lamented).

Religion, because of its power, pushes humanity to its edges - be they the best edges or the worst. To get rid of it is simply a cop-out from our humanity.

Religion illustrates the mixed nature of humanity (which Christians would refer to as 'the fall', and I'm sure other religions have similar concepts), we have the potential for great good, and the potential for great evil held within us simultaneously.

So too religion itself has the potential for great good and great evil - these two are not necessarily separable. The mediaeval Church is generally thought of as the epitome of corrupt religion - yet at the same time as burning heretics, at the same time as organising crusades - the Church was enforcing laws of war on Europe, for example forbidding weapons which it considered too barbarous.

[LynzM]

106. Interesting points, TJ

I definitely agree that religion can bring out both the best and worst in people, sometimes both at the same time... Do you think that the best and worst would not come out if there were not religion as a means of expression/context for it? Or do you think religion generally swings the balance further toward the 'good' side of things?

[BikeWriter]

95. Most wars have been over religion!

[tjwmason]

101. Most wars have been over human pride

Most of them have had a veneer of religion added for the sake of respectability.

[benburch]

108. We interrupt this thread...

[LynzM]

111. LOL

Nice reminder!! :)

[Shell Beau]

109. I personally wouldn't b/c I am a religious

person and I benefit from it. That may not be true for everyone, but it is for me.

[LynzM]

112. After reading all the replies on this thread,

I don't think I would, either. But I'd sure love to change the way 'organized' religion operates!

[lukasahero]

110. What you describe is the only part of "religion" that I'd keep

The best part of "religion" is the desire to be part of something bigger, to acknowledge our connectedness to the world, the earth, the universe and each other. That is the part of "religion" that inspires goodness, gentleness, kindness and peace.

I'd get rid of, if I could, the alternate desire in humankind and encouraged by many "organized" religions to think of ourselves as separate and superior, that "some are more equal than others", that we (the "individual" we) are special but others are not. That is the part of "religion" that inspires violence, hatred and war.

[LynzM]

113. Yup, I agree

There are good and bad parts, and whether those stem from religion itself, or if religion merely provides an outlet for those deeper things, it'd be nice to keep the good and get rid of the bad!

[WhollyHeretic]

115. Even though both of my parents are privately religious they

raised me without religion. It has caused nothing but pain in my family. As a child I went to church once and to synagogue once. My mother's family is Protestant and my father's family is Jewish. They had to elope to get married. My father worked for his father at the time and his father fired him for marrying my mother. Growing up I heard nasty comments about the other religion from both sides. There was also my mother's sister who converted to Catholicism. When her father died she asked her priest if he could mention him during service and he refused because her father wasn't Catholic but said if she donated $50 he would think about him during the service. :crazy:

Those are just a couple of the things I've seen with religion in my family. I wouldn't mind seeing organized religion gone, then again I'm an atheist, it seems to cause to much division and hatred. I've had this argument several hundred times though with one of my oldest friends who is religious, whenever we get really worked up and start yelling I always point out to her that religion is dividing us right then. :evilgrin:

[LynzM]

117. Ah, the irony...

That's really ironic, you and a friend fighting about whether religion divides people, due to your religious beliefs! Wow. Sorry about all the crap with your family, dude. That's crazy about the priest. I mean, geez. What a racket he's running there... :crazy:

[mitchum]

127. In a heartbeat

[Darranar]

128. Most certainly not. Causes work that way, too...

Get rid of the desire and you break down most organizations, religious or not, and you block the ability of humans working together to change things.