I'm so *%&@^! mad right now, I feel like I need to cry!

[Sean Reynolds]

I just had a very upsetting exchange with someone who claims that anyone that opposes Bush's war isn't truly an American and doesn't support the war.

Now I don't know what it was today, but this time it really got to me. Not because I'm sick and tired of being called anti-American or told over and over I don't support the troops. I've gotten use to hearing that since the war began...and it really doesn't bother me any more. I know that I still love America -- even with its flaws -- and I'll always support the troops...because I come from a family of military vets.

And that's what upsets me the post.

First let me start with my grandfather. I've talked about him many times on DU and in fact you guys helped me cope with his death back in 2002.

My grandfather, like MOST grandfathers today, fought in World War II. He also LOVED America. He was in World War II during the Normandy Invasion, where he linked up with Soviet troops.

He also did not like Bush. Up until his death he couldn't stand President Bush or his policies. Now he died in March of 2002, so he never did live to see the Iraq War. But I know, I KNOW he wouldn't have supported it. My grandfather was NOT a pro-war hawk that felt it was needed for every problem. He opposed the Vietnam War and he would have done the same during this war.

To think that people actually believe HE'S unpatriotic because he wouldn't have supported the war turns my stomach. My grandfather was probably the greatest man I ever knew. He was a teacher with the Salt Lake School District for many, many years. He was active in the Salt Lake community also one that wasn't afraid to show his love for his country -- even before 9-11 made it "cool".

It makes me SO mad that they would attack him, call him unpatriotic and say he never would have supported the troops....when he too was a troop. My grandfather wasn't drafted into WWII, he volunteered (which is more than these people can say they've done)....and so I don't understand how they can say he would have been unpatriotic?

It makes me so freaking mad to hear that crap.

In the more current world, some of you know about my father. He's a Vietnam Vet that came back from Vietnam pretty messed up. He suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and also Agent Orange.

I don't get along with my father precisely because of this. He was also another one that volunteered for the war -- at the age of 16! -- and when he came back was never the same. It was difficult for him to cope, and like so many Vietnam Vets, he became an alcoholic. Sober, he's a pretty cool guy...drunk, he's a dick.

But that's not why I'm here. As much as I never thought I did, I love my dad. And so it pains me again when people claim that all anti-war protesters hate America and don't support the troops.

My dad is still alive, for how long we don't know. He also doesn't support this war because he fought in a war a lot like it. One with no exit strategy. One built on false pretenses. One that had no end in sight.

So by their own words, he hates America and is unpatriotic. Forgetting that this man JOINED the army because he trusted his government and wanted to PROTECT his country. Please tell me how that makes someone unpatriotic? How can he hate the troops, when he -- like my grandfather -- was a troop himself?

It disgusts me to hear people throw that term around, without EVER looking at the people that are protesting this war.

I don't hate America, but I hate how some of its citizens treat those that have fought for it in the past. When I protest the war, I'm not protesting the troops -- never have and never will. I protest the reason they're there, because I've seen what war can do first hand.

If some of these people could just understand that the war doesn't end for these troops when they come home. They have to battle it their entire lives and if they have families, they bring the battle home to them.

I've watched my entire life as my dad's health has deteriorated right in front of me. That's hard and I don't care what anyone says.

I don't want some kid, 21 years from now, to go through what I am going through today. Not for something so questionable, like the Iraq war is.

I protest this war more on a personal level. Because I can see what an unjust war does to someone. My dad left this country to fight for his country, believing that his country needed HIS help.

He returned not knowing what to feel about his country. He returned not understanding how a nation could so openly deceive its people.

He opposes this war because of that.

But listening to people, you'd think he hated his country...and the troops. When in reality, he's doing it FOR his country and FOR the troops.

Because he doesn't want to see them go through what he's had to go through.

I don't either.

And I hate being told that my grandfather and father hate America and hate the troops because of it!

:(

[kanrok]

1. Excellent post

Good point on the effects to the family from war. Recommended.

[MichiganVote]

2. They want to write their own reality and yours.

Don't take the bait.

[hickman1937]

3. It is un american for anyone to advocate blind allegiance to bush.

It is anti-american to support a war of aggression based on the need of the wealthy to confiscate oil reserves from another country. Your opponent was a traitor to his country.

[Old_Fart]

"I voted for your post"

If only there were more like yourself in this world. Peace brother :pals:

[Kali]

4. touch up the intro and send it to the paper.

Call "them" on the bs.

[hfojvt]

5. Hey you whippersnapper

my grandfather fought in WWI!
And he's probably been dead longer than you have been alive (1978).

[Sean Reynolds]

6. Yeah, I was born in 1984.

[FlaGranny]

20. Who's a whippersnapper?

My FATHER fought in WWI. :-)

[hfojvt]

22. Not me

Since Sean is 21, I am 43 and you are 75, I am still twice his age whereas you are not twice mine. Then if you compare years of adulthood (past, say, the age of 15). Sean has 6, I have 28 and you have 60. 28-6 is far greater than 60-28. Thus, while I may seem young from some perspectives I can no longer be considered young enough for whippersnapperhood. Unfortunately. ;(

[lildreamer316]

29. OUCh

That made my brain hurt. I must be a whippersnapper. (32).

[FlaGranny]

36. No, no, NO!

I am NOT 75 - I'm 65. My father was NOT a whippersnapper when I was born; he was pushing 45. He would have been 110 this year. :-)

[hfojvt]

38. only proves my point

That I am even less of a whippersnapper relative to you. My dad is the son of a WWI vet, my aforemention grandfather and he is 72 and his mom was 40 when he was born, and grandpa was 20 when the war ended and so one of the youngest of WWI vets. In fact, he never fought. He was finishing his training in Washington when the war ended. So 75 was not an unreasonable guess, and also it was one that prevented you from coming back with "but I am 70 you whippersnapper :spank: !" which might have happened if I had guessed 65. So I win :bounce: I am not a whippersnapper. I am a geezer! Uh, what do I win again?

[FlaGranny]

41. You don't win anything because

you have failed to learn the cardinal rule, which is, which is, which is - never guess a lady's age on the high side. Your reasoning should have been. "Hmmm, let's see, what is the oldest her father could have been when she was born? What is the youngest she could be now?" and use that figure. :P That's how it's done. On second thought, maybe you just shouldn't try to guess a lady's age. You can get in lots of trouble like that. Hahahahaha! :rofl:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

7. I don't blame you, I get that way myself. I haven't encountered

many people like the guy you talked to, but I suppose if I did, I'd be as angry. Tell them this, "Why is it that all of a sudden if a a person opposes a policy of the U.S. that they are 'not truly an American'? When some people opposed Bill Clinton did that make them un-American? Bring up things like that.

In the mean time good luck and go beat a pillow or something.

On Edit: I voted for your post.

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. Thanks so much for sharing this. I know it is hard, but think of this...

the people who are leveling this unfair criticism are scared shitless all of the time. They are afraid that someone is going to take their money, someone is going to blow them up, kill them, but worse - they are mortally afraid that they are on the wrong side of things. I am absolutely convinced that many of the * supporters, many of those who criticize Cindy Sheehan, are embarassed, feeling guilty - deep down they KNOW that Bush is an idiot, that this war is wrong...but they are weak - they are the followers, the defensive, the mortally fearful. what is incredibly ironic is how many, many of these people also call themselves Christians. Of course, they wouldn't understand what the true teachings of Christianity are if it hit them over the head.

Be it fear, selfishness, ignorance, stupidity, close mindedness, DON'T let them get to you. You, your grandfather, your father - you are all worth thousands of them, millions. You think, feel, and care. I know how hard it is to release the anger, but don't let them take your peace! They've done nothing to earn the right to do this.

[LaurenG]

9. You cannot buy the propaganda from them

Most people don't agree with this war. Check out the polls. My husband and I know many people who don't like this but will support the administration because they believe it is traitorous to oppose it. Who taught these folks this line of bs? They have been brainwashed. They are selfish and can't think themselves out of a box. The others are just flat out evil, there is no other way to put it. This dumbing down has been purposely done IMHO. You didn't buy it. You should thank your lucky stars that you are the morally superior human on the planet. Don't allow them to define you, you define them. They are selling out, they are hateful murderous bastards. Fuck them and the horses they rode in on. :hug:

[mcscajun]

10. There's a great LTTE in that post...

it just needs a little trim here and there. :)

Go for it!

:hug:

[txindy]

15. There certainly is

And I'll add another, "Go for it!" Expose the wingnuts for what they are: hurtful, hate-filled liars.

[Sperk]

11. I hear ya. The only thing that keeps my head from exploding is the

realization that these people do not have my respect and therefore their opinions are not important to me, not in the least. That doesn't mean that I don't refute their ridiculous assertions, just as you have done in your post. Unfortunately, we have to share this country with many people who have a sick and twisted way of thinking and it doesn't end with the war. How many Americans still think minorities are inferior to them? How many Americans still think women should be subservient to men? How many Americans still believe God is ready and willing to condemn to Hell, for all eternity, all those who do not hold the same beliefs as them?

Lets face it....we as a nation are very low down on the totem pole of our spiritual development. When I feel that I'm at my wits end, as you seem to be right now, I try to put it in another perspective. If these people did not exist, we would only have an idea about how we are tolerant, loving, courageous,caring and wise. They give us an opportunity to experience ourselves that way, if you know what I mean. I know it's a small consolation, but it's gotten me through a few tough moments.

Peace.

:hug:

[Sperk]

12. BTW...go ahead and cry, it's your body's way of extracting the

poison of anger(justified, as it may be) from your system. You'll feel a lot better. :-)

[meganmonkey]

13. Ain't that the truth

(she types while tears well up in her eyes)

I have been crying a LOT lately about this war, and the peace movement...Happy and sad tears. And overall I have been feeling better the last few weeks than I have in a couple years.

:) / :cry: ---> :crazy:

[Beam Me Up]

21. I've been crying a lot more too. AND I AM ALSO VERY VERY ANGRY!

This is a 57 year old man who, here to fore, didn't cry easily. I've always appreciated those who could cry when appropriate. And now it is VERY APPROPRIATE to cry and I'm glad I can do so easily.

But I am also VERY ANGRY. No one had better say SHIT to me unless they want a damn good going over! :grr:

:thumbsup: :cry: :hug:

[meganmonkey]

26. ...

:hug:

Anger can be a good thing if the energy it creates is directed well ;)

[Beam Me Up]

27. Thank. I needed that hug!!

:hi:

And I promised to keep it focused constructively. :)

[Burried News]

14. He was saying all this shit because you mattered to him.

That you can't agree with him sticks in his craw. He needs you - neither you nor we, need him. Obviously he needs more cooking - let him stew.

[IndyOp]

16. Sean - you are not alone, you are never alone

We are with you!

:yourock:

[khashka]

17. You know who hates war?

the men and women who've fought in them.

I support our troops by wanting them back NOW! With their families. No more grieving mothers.

I also want us to finally give the respect to our veterans that they fucking earned.

And if that means I hate America... well so be it. I ain't backing down on this one and I can handle any names I get called.


Khash.

[HEyHEY]

18. Relax their time is fading - support for the war is dwindling.

[Daphne08]

19. I understand. My father also fought for this country in WWII as

well as his brother, my uncle, and my great uncles fought in WWI.

I do understand how you feel. Just don't allow him to upset you, because he doesn't understand our democracy.


Remind him of this Thomas Jefferson quote: "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."

Remind him of the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[fooj]

23. I love my country. I don't hate America.

I simply hate what has become of America.


Peace.

[Arugula Latte]

24. Wow. Salt Lake City. That's a tough place to be a liberal.

Just know you're not alone.

[BikeWriter]

25. Truer words were never spoken. I've been called a traitor, too.

[ellenfl]

28. don't let the bastids getcha down! simply

tell them that, under that love it or leave it premise, people who did not support clinton were unpatriotic. that oughta piss 'em off pretty good. :shrug:

then show them all those 'unpatriotic' rethug quotes regarding clinton's bombing of kosovo.

ellen fl

[caty]

30. One good piece of advice my father

gave me before I went off to college is this: No matter where you go, you will run into at least one asshole. And, when you do--just walk away. Because you can't reason with a fool.
You ran into an asshole!

[Wapsie B]

31. The righties are still upset about opposition to 'Nam.

Opposition to Iraq only fuels their hatred of the Left. Problem is when some of their loved ones come home in body bags those that still have half a brain in their heads start to question our motives over there. We scare the right because we don't blindly accept what they do. Anger on the outside. But underneath people like the one you ran into are consumed by fear. We question the status quo. That scares the righties.

[bliss_eternal]

32. I'm very sorry that this asshole got under your skin.

:hug:

You express yourself quite well, btw. I agree with the posts that said this would make a phenomenal letter to the editor. Think about it...

There will always be small minded people that oppose anyone that is free enough to express themselves, and to express views different from the status quo. That's their problem, not yours at all.

It's people like him that think they would happy if the whole world, thought and acted exactly like he does. There's a place for people like this, but there is also a place for people like you and me.

We are the reason that things change, for the better in the world. He's the reason that things change for the negative--crime, wars, poverty, unfair opportunities for women, minority, etc. Because people like him don't like change, dissent or anything that is different from his idea of the way things should be.

Screw that piss ant. You're as American as he or anyone else.

You know in your heart what's right--he can't take that away from you if you don't let him. :patriot:

[barb162]

33. I think there should be a bumpersticker

"I support the troops but not the war"

[Wapsie B]

34. I'd love to have one with the Trent Lott quote on it.

[barb162]

37. what was the quote by Trent?

[driver8]

35. I was in the Navy and belong to an online Navy group...

There are about 50 guys in the group and I think that there are maybe 3 liberals; the rest are conservative and pro-shrub.

You would not believe some of the bullshit comments I have had thrown at me. To be fair, most of them come from the same guy but I have been told that I am responsible for the deaths of troops; I have been told that if I am against the war, I am against the troops; I have been told that I support terrorism; I have been told that I am a traitor.

I told this guy that if I am a traitor, so what? If my being against the war brings the troops home, I don't give a fuck what you call me. If I'm a terrorist supporter for wanting our troops out of harm's way, what the hell does that make you?

I get the typical "fight them there...freedom on the march...dictator gone..." bullshit that we hear everyday. I know how much I love my country and that is all that matters to me. These guys can say whatever they want but I served just like them. What gives them the right to decide who is a patriot and who isn't? Fuck 'em. It used to bother me, but I realized that I am right and they are so very wrong.

Your grandfather was a good American and he believed in his country and fought for her. You know the truth, that's all that matters. Anyone who loved your grandfather knows the truth, too. Don't let these "false patriots" get to you.

If they are so committed to this war, why aren't they over there fighting it?

Fuck 'em...that is my new attitude. FUCK THEM.

[Peace Patriot]

39. I tried to recommend, but it's too late. What a wonderful post!

You and your father and grandfather, and what the Bush Cartel and its lapdog news monopolies have done to you, is one of the things that really gets to me. They have made REAL patriotism, and REAL honor, and REAL courage, and REAL loyalty, and REAL wisdom, things to be mowed down and smashed, just like that idiot did to the crosses at Camp Casey. That guy who mowed the crosses down was responding to THEIR lies and THEIR treason, and THEIR callousness, and their TOTALLY FALSE and ILLUSION-SPUN "tough-guy-ism." That's the standard they have set for people: lies and callousness and phony posing. And the people with REAL heart, and REAL faithfulness, and strong standards of truthfulness, and common sense--whether in the military, or on the protest line, or in politics--get trampled into the dust. REAL ethics and a REAL sense of what is right and just are something to step on and squish.

It just breaks my heart. So many people have been hurt...in their souls! Honorable military people. Honorable politicians. Honorable citizens. Honorable peace protesters. Honorable journalists.

I was thinking the other day of the military people who are devoted to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, especially on the treatment of prisoners of war and civilian populations; people for whom the UCMJ is a badge of honor and of ethical behavior; the military lawyers who have fought for those standards; and the soldiers who have honorably adhered to them, and who have also been protected by them. All disregarded and trampled upon by the Bush Cartel, for whom honor is nothing. What a terrible thing for a president to do! What a terrible, terrible thing--to take that loyalty and sense of honor and spit on it.

Sean, know that you are not alone. Know that this hurt is widespread. And try to understand that the dittoheads--and any who claim to be patriots and who stomp on the wisdom, and the sacrifices, of both soldiers and civilians who are wiser than they are--are ALSO the victims of the Bush Cartel, in most cases. And they are in a far worse position than you are to sort out illusion and reality. They have been brainwashed. They can't think straight. They have an emptiness inside into which the Bush Cartel lies and illusions got easy entry. And they are to be pitied, most of them. Opposed, but pitied; their Big Trumpet in the news monopolies taken away, but still pitied, for the paltriness of their vision, and the weakness of their minds and spirits.

Thank you, Sean, for sharing what you have suffered, and for living through it--like Cindy Sheehan--with your heart, and your mind, and your spirit, in tact, and with your ability to speak the truth unimpaired. That is a stunning accomplishment, and an inspiration.

[Miss Chybil]

40. Anybody who SUPPORTS war has a screw loose.

Nobody, NOBODY, not one NORMAL person, LIKES war. So when you see some yahoo spouting off about how war is a good thing, and he, or she is not wearing a uniform, tell them to go fight one and report back to you later.

It is not in the common man's nature to wage war. He must be frightened and cajoled into it by people who stand to profit from either the process, or the outcome - namely the rich and powerful. People who claim to SUPPORT the war, are simply supporting those who have tricked them into doing so. Feel sorry for them. They are mindless.

Now, mind you, there are many soldiers prosecuting our wars, right now who must, in their own hearts, believe they are doing the "right" thing. To believe otherwise would render them unable to function, or to stay alive. There are also many parents and other family members who must believe their loved ones died for a "noble cause." It's extremely painful to believe otherwise. On top of the grief of their loss, to think it was for nothing. is nearly unbearable to them. Ask Cindy Sheehan, she knows. Some people feel they must confront he pain of being betrayed by "their" president, and their government. Others just can't. Feel sorry for them, too, but let them deal with the situation they way they need to.

Someday, today will be history and hindsight is always 20/20. Think of all the people who thought Vietnam was the "right" thing to do. You won't find many who'll say that anymore. A few who can't face the fact so many died for nothing, but they are the definite minority. Most wars, in hindsight, don't look so good. Unfortunately, the rich and powerful will continue to start them and we'll have to continue ending them. It seems that's just the way it is.