Does it anger you that samplers rip off the music they sample

[Rabrrrrrr]

entirely?

They don't even have the mad fly skillz to play that music in their own way on instruments of their own, but have to play the actual original recording.

That's worse than any riff borrowing, or song covers or remakes.

In my opinion.

[wtmusic]

1. Isn't recycling old hooks an art in itself?

:sarcasm:

Hopefully the original writers get the good end of a sweet licensing deal.

[RandomKoolzip]

2. I once argued with a electronic music fan about this....

I told him that I hate sampling, and he says "Oh, so I guess your band never did any covers, then?" As if that proved some kind of point.

The difference between a musician and some asshole with a computer is this:

The musician hears a great beat and says to him/herself:

'Wow, that's cool! I'm gonna learn how to play that."

And he sits down, practices, and through brainpower and manual dexterity, he/she does indeed learn his/her own version of it colored of course, by whatever personal idiosynchracies the player might have.

The asshole with a computer hears a great beat and says to his/herself:

"Wow, that's cool! I'm gonna sample that."

And he/she does.

[tuvor]

6. Your scenario ends in a strange place.

Usually, the sampler does something WITH the sample to create something that wasn't there before.

[RandomKoolzip]

27. Yeah, out of parts someone else created.

The real musician may not invent those parts, but he at least manufactures them himself out of his own raw materials.


The asshole with a computer is, to mix a metaphor, like Warhol, endlessly taking someone else's photograph, adding a dash of color, and slapping an "art" label on it. It's still someone else's photograph underneath the added color.

[tuvor]

32. So much depends on context.

I've given the example of gohomeproductions.co.uk. Check it out if you haven't yet. The likes of Blondie, John Lydon, Gang of Four and Madonna have all given him high praise, and "all he does" is sample their very own work.

What examples are you thinking of? I wouldn't be surprised if you're considering examples that I'd agree are bad.

[sundog]

3. depends on how clever the sample is

:7

[progmom]

4. this is where you and i part ways

i think when it is done lazily (see Diddy) it can be awful. but when you're talking about MFDoom or DJ Shadow, i think it can be brilliant. :)

[tuvor]

5. So you're against collages, too, huh?

Like anything else, sampling can be used for good or bad art.

Familiar with mashups? Check out www.gohomeproductions.co.uk/mp3.html for some amazing things that could not be done without massive sampling.

[BlueJazz]

7. Never cared for the idea. Let me put it this way..>>

It takes years of hard practice to be a good Musician and weeks to learn how to use samples. People who sample (to Me) are just too "Talent-less" to come up with an idea of their own...

Jazz Musicians can play a song 500 times and never play it quite the same way. "Samplers" can't even play it one time, one way.....Anybody can learn to use a mixer..it's extremely easy.

Of course, those who know me (on this board) also know I can be a real elitist when it comes to Music..

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. LOL! Perfectly said!

And let's hear it for being elitist!

Nothing wrong with that.

[sendero]

20. As for elitist..

... I agree. And there are elite sampler-based musicians out there. Maybe you should broaden your listening habits :)

[tuvor]

9. You could probaby use the same argument to say that photographers...

...are "talent-less". Like this:

"It takes years of hard practice to be a good painter and weeks to learn how to use a camera. People who take photos(to Me) are just too "Talent-less" to come up with an idea of their own...

Painters can paint a subject 500 times and never render it quite the same way. Photographers can't even paint it one time, one way.....Anybody can learn to use a darkroom..it's extremely easy.

If it sounds good to my ears, I don't care about the "how".

[BlueJazz]

10. I disagree..There are people who "Take Pictures" and..

..there are Photographers. Photographers will (sometimes) wait all day or drive 500 miles for the right scene or light.. Picture takers snap shots of whatever the heck is there.
I respectfully submit that your comparison is not valid but I do agreee that if it (the Music) sounds good to you than enjoy it..as you should...That's what it's all about.

[tuvor]

13. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Because now we're bringing hobbyists into the equation.

One who samples can spend just as much time searching for the right sounds to create something new. Again, I'd point you to http://www.gohomeproductions.co.uk/mp3.html for some great examples.

To each his own! :toast:

[BlueJazz]

14. I'll drink to that..fellow DU'er!

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. And in the wise words of what's his name, "If it sounds good, it IS good"

was that Duke Ellington? I can't remember.

Peter Schickele quotes him every week on Schickele Mix.

And "it don't mean a thing if doesn't have that certain je ne sais quois"

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. No, not the same argument at all.

A similar situation would be someone who takes reproductions of paintings, plops them on a canvas, and says "I painted a painting!"

Or someone who takes photos of photos, and says "Look! I made a photograph!"

It also takes years of hard practice to learn how to use a camera and a dark room artistically.

[Book Lover]

11. In text perms there is the concept of Fair Use

Which allows a publisher to reprint a very small portion of an original text without first obtaining permission. Is there nothing comparable in the audio world?

[tjdee]

12. Sampling uses the computer as an instrument.

Is it harder to play guitar than it is to press play?

Probably.

But creatively speaking, does one give more pleasure/enjoyment on hearing? Depends on personal taste, just like a cover.

[progressoid]

16. I absolutely hate absolutes

[CrownPrinceBandar]

18. Depends on the sample.........

I liked Beck's use of Jobim's "Desifinado" on "Readymade" off of Odelay. But of course, that was via The Dust Brothers, who are sample masters. I also liked White Zombie's use of horror film clips in their songs. As long as it fits the music, I'm good.

[sendero]

19. Apparently..

.... you haven't heard any really good sampler work :)

I agree that if a song steals another song's main riff and makes that the main riff of the new song, well that sucks.

But there are people using the sampler as an instrument, creating great new music from bits and pieces of others'.

A prime example would be "Endtroducing..." by DJ Shadow, a mere teen at the time he made the recording. It is a timeless classic already.

[Elidor]

21. I make most of my own loops, but I do use commercial loops, as well

And I play instruments. Most producers are also players.

Listen to DJ Shadow, and then tell me sampling is bad. The guy is a genius.

[miss_kitty]

22. no. It doesn't anger me at all

i think it takes some mad fly skillz to mix and match samples. And know how much and when to use them.

It's like making a good collage-it does take skill to do it.

JMO

[sendero]

23. And as someone who has dabbled...

... with it, let me add that it is *painstaking* work. Unlike playing an instrument where you can do whatever you can, with a sample you have to make it fit in time and key to the rest of the samples.

To people who are unfamiliar with the power of sampling, fire up your favorite p2p and get:

"Changeling" or "Midnight in a Perfect World" by DJ Shadow.

or

"Strangers" or "Pedestal" by Portishead.

[miss_kitty]

24. I go to an ftp site

and download mashups and dj mixes-not the same as sampling, but I know it takes a lot of skill, even with Acid or Foundry or some beat matching programs. I love DJ Shadow and Portishead, BTW

[sendero]

25. I'd check that out..

... (ftp) if you have more info.

I like all sorts of music, but I especially like synths/samplers/beats. Sure, most of it is crap, but that's true of any genre. And the great stuff is just ... great :)

Other related artists (not so much sampling, but some) that I love are Squarepusher (master of the drill&bass genre), Boards of Canada (more Scottish musical geniuses :)), and Goldie (drum&bass) though he hasn't done much of interest lately.

Basically, talented people can make great music with a broomstick, and the talentless can't make it with a studio full of session men or a rack of samplers. :)

[miss_kitty]

26. You got that

Check your PMs for the URL

[RandomKoolzip]

28. The trouble is when a relatively "democratic" art form like collage...

...overtakes the more "traditional," skilled artforms like representational painting or drawing. We don't want those skills to be lost to the ages, just as we don't want the ability to play instruments to be lost to the ages.

Sorry to get all elitist, but I've been plying my craft on several different instruments (bass, drums, guitar) since I was very very little, and to see the generation to come up after me just abandon such a craft is completely disheartening.

[tuvor]

33. I'm thinking of a pendulum.

I seem to remember that synthesizers were suppose to render electric instruments as obsolete in the 80s.

Well, that didn't quite happen, now, did it?

Funny thing, swing music also made a comeback in the 90s.

Go figure.

My feeling is that it's just one more avenue of artistic expression. Like Photoshop, like CGI, like word processors...

And these days I'm all for more creating instead of destroying.

[miss_kitty]

35. I hear ya.

but I don't think that'll happen. If anything, it may give more people access to music and composition. I think electric guitars were viewed with some alarm when they started showing up. I love music, but don't play anything. And I'm way older than you, too. So it's just my extemely humble and uninformed opinion. :)

[leftofthedial]

29. and then they use it to make crap

I've come 180 on it

fucking hate it

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. "Oh, listen! It's Rap!"

Or "Oh, listen! It's at 180 beats per minute, a perfect computer-generated 180 beats per minute, just like every song on all 75 CDs done by this DJ in the last six weeks!"

[leftofthedial]

31. I do country and rap together

it's called crap.

[Floogeldy]

34. No. I don't let strangers control, or trigger, my emotions.

That would be totally wacky.