Hey, I'm getting murdalized in GD. I knew it would happen,

[Redstone]

but I couldn't hepl saying something sensible. A bad idea to do that over there today. People are frustrated, so their imaginations are running wild.

If you want to pile on as well, go here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4563721

Redstone

[Chovexani]

1. Don't come in here wanting sympathy

After a clueless post. Sometimes DU blackfolk get a little tired of having to educate people.

[democracyindanger]

2. Sensible nothing.

Be an adult and defend your post instead of bailing into the Lounge.

[Redstone]

I'm not bailing. Just talking.

Redstone

[democracyindanger]

43. Sure. That explains all the responses

you posted defending your position. What, all two of 'em?

[zippy890]

3. better yet

admit you were wrong

[Misunderestimator]

4. So you want to be murdalized here too?

I don't quite get that.

[Chovexani]

5. I guess he's a masochist

:shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

7. If he were really a masochist, you'd think he would have responded

to a few people on his other thread. :shrug:

[Chovexani]

Good point.

Poor baby, those crocodile tears must sting.

[Lady Freedom]

12. well he did answer some.

But, Redstone you need to work on defense!!!!! If you want to start a debate, you must learn to retaliate!!!

[Misunderestimator]

17. Yeah... I counted... two.

:D

[Lady Freedom]

20. Well I said he needs to work on defense!

[jpgray]

19. If he's only responding to posts that deserve a response

His behavior makes perfect sense to me. And the debate style of "you haven't responded therefore you have no answer to my questions" is about the lamest rhetorical tactic in existence.

[Lady Freedom]

21. Good point.

[Misunderestimator]

22. Sure, but I read a LOT of posts on that thread that deserved a response.

And I find it odd that someone starts a controversial thread about racism, and then runs away only to complain that people are criticizing his stance in another room. What's THAT about?

[jpgray]

31. I didn't see anything controversial

He pointed out that the events in NO can be easily explained by sheer incompetence, and everyone started yelling at him. The problem with the racism argument--that assumes the authorities are purposely letting black folks die simply because mostly black folks are dying--is that the same people who make that argument get furious (rightly so) when the same logic used on looting. That one goes like this: since a great deal of the poor population of NO is black, and it is mostly the poor folk left in the city doing the looting, black people must be more predisposed to loot than whites. In both cases it is more about class--the poor are doing the looting because they have no means or ability to flee and are responding naturally, and the poor are dying because the gov't had zero plan for them and didn't care. Their being black has in my view almost nothing to do with either instance. If they were all poor and white, we'd be witnessing the same events, in my view. No more effort would be made to save them.

[Misunderestimator]

36. No, he started by saying he was sick of talk of racism...

hardly as innocent as pointing out that our leaders are incompetent. We all know that!

And you are too narrow in your definition of the argument... no one is blaming the people on the ground, or even the leaders who are scrambling now to do something... ANYTHING. The problems began long before they entered the scene.

You cannot separate class from race in New Orleans. Nor in any other urban area. The majority of the poor are ALWAYS non-white. The pervasiveness of racism is bigger than just this disaster... but this highlights the overall problem. Therefore racism becomes a valid discussion.... or we will have no solution next time either.

[jpgray]

45. His thread was entirely about why people are dying

And the argument that they were purposely being left to die by racism in authority figures from police on up. In other words, his thread was about the people on the ground, and the leaders who are scrambling to do something. I think his thread was a lot more specific in that sense than the subject alone might indicate. I don't see anything about racism in the thread except when tied to the way authority figures are behaving and the reasons that people are being left to die.

[Misunderestimator]

50. A title like "I am sick and FUCKING tired of all this "racism" talk."

Says what it says... no matter what the rest of the post goes on to say.

He starts by insinuating that anyone is accusing anyone on the ground of being racist. Have you seen anyone do that? I haven't.

And if he's going to include "the White House on down"

And if you're talking about the "authorities," from the White Houe on down, just remember this: Those people are politicians, and they'd NEVER let their public image be sullied by anything that smacks of racism.

then he's going to get a lot of arguments from people who know the racism that exists from the top, and that THESE leaders' racism contributed to the denial of funds to repair the levees, to name but one small thing. To me, that is racist. You can call it classist, but when blacks are the ones that inhabit that lowest class... it's all about race to me.

[jpgray]

56. You can't respond to the subject of a thread in isolation

Though DU does that -all- the time these days. Redstone clearly outlined what he disagreed with, and people turned that into "Redstone thinks racism is uninvolved with anything and thinks we should shut up about it." But that sentiment exists nowhere in his post, unless you just read the subject and reply based solely on that.

[Misunderestimator]

58. No of course not... but clearly the subject is used for effect...

and clearly that was the effect he was going for. The sentiment exists throughout his post in the context of all else that has gone on today. Please don't pretend that people don't start threads based on a subject that has been much discussed or flamed about during the day... in fact, people often start threads in one place then cryptically refer to them in another. Weird... I know... but it happens all the time these days.

[IChing]

62. I thought the title spoke for itself

as an insult
that's why I didn't comment on it.

[jpgray]

66. If the title speaks for itself, why are there six paragraphs under it?

:banghead:

[Misunderestimator]

67. True.

[jpgray]

68. When the title speaks for itself, people use this----(nt)

[Misunderestimator]

69. When people go for effect they use an inflammatory title...

then they go on to make insinuations... I've already answered THIS particular question though.

[IChing]

70. "I am sick and FUCKING tired of all this "racism" talk." n/t

[jpgray]

72. Do you only read the headlines? Or the titles of books?

I can't believe someone is telling me that responding only to the subject is perfectly okay.

[Redstone]

27. Why, thank you. I stated my position. Others can disagree,

and I don't have to use my entire night repeating myself.

And, people, I'm not whining or shedding any crocodile tears. Just mentioning it here for the hell of it...

You don't like me, you can put me on ignore.

Redstone

[Lady Freedom]

6. Redstone, you know how it is in GD!

more flames over there than a western forrest fire!!

[Redstone]

30. I know; and I knew that post would draw fire. I'm not complaining.

Just thought you all might like to check it out.

Redstone

[bliss_eternal]

75. May I ask why? Why would you think everyone would

want to check out something that got so many people upset?

I could be wrong, but it seems you are intentionally trying to ruffle feathers.

You are of course, totally entitled to your opinion. But why would you come here saying you got beat up for something like THAT?

It's always interesting to me that the people on DU that usually want to say something ISN'T racist, are those that aren't part of an ethnic background that may ever be in the position to suffer such an injustice In other words, caucasian.

You don't have to be a minority to recognize racism, thankfully. But not sharing the skin color of those in this situation--what would possess you to make such a remark and then expect people to NOT get upset about it?

Unless my first statement was correct and it was said to upset people.

:shrug:

I'm very sorry to see that you feel this way...among other things...
Oh well...

[knowbody0]

8. redstone

you cannot help but notice 98% of these victims are black and poor. waiting over 5 days while wading in shit with nothing to eat or drink. watching your babies dehydrate. im not admonishing you at all, but it is blatant genocide we see

[jpgray]

9. I guess seeing purposed evil in incompetence is comforting to some

It's more about not caring and having no plans in place for the poor folks than it is about some Aryan eugenics campaign--I'm not sure why people are attacking you for saying so. :shrug:

But people are going a little nuts in GD today.

[Malikshah]

10. "I knew it would happen" hmmm does that mean that if you

see a fire in a fireplace, you'll put your hand in it or pour gasoline on it and then ask for assistance as you get burned?

Or maybe some folks like to knock down hornets' nests and then run when the swarm attacks after being dealt a stupid blow.

cry me a river and get over yourself.

Oh, and have a wonderful GD/DU lollypoplicky day. :)

[jpgray]

18. Sometimes the hornets' nest deserves a good thwacking

And sometimes the hornets would do themselves credit to avoid swarming about crazily on the most hyperbolic level every time someone questions their latest unsubstantiated conclusions.

[Lady Freedom]

24. That is why there is a Lounge and a GD

A place for hornets and a place for lizards.

[Malikshah]

33. true--gotta love that mantra/meme "unsubstantiated rumor"

gotttta love it.

Harshin folks' buzz is just all part of the dingdong happy task some of us take on.

boy...I just can't get over it... unsubstantiated rumor...2x wow. I mean..just..wow. :)

have fun.

[jpgray]

48. Okay. Show me the evidence that a racial pogrom is underway in NO

So far I've seen nothing, and incompetence and a lack of care for the poor explains everything without assuming a racist motive on the part of the authorities. So why assume one when there is no evidence?

[Redstone]

32. Thank you so much.

Redstone

[Sugar Smack]

11. Look at your fan club and decide-

There are so many of us who love you being on our side, and if we don't make it known, we'll do better. For one, I'm proud to call you my "honorary cousin".

I love you, Redstone.

:hug:

[Sugar Smack]

29. I do think there's racism involved, though

with the reticence of getting people off the rooftops and closer to water. It sucks, my friend, it really sucks.

[WCGreen]

13. Willie Horton Willie Horton Willie Horton

It's all about votes and class and a little something Nixon worked up in 1968 called the Southern Stratgy.....

Since then, the GOP has taken all the racist votes away from the Dem's....

I say let 'em have 'em.....

Law and Order with black faces showin' up on the ads when it cane up..

The Silent Majority.. White folk....

No, there ain't no racism in the GOP...

Now that they done whupped up their base with the gay folk.....

[no name no slogan]

14. I held my nose and went to GD just for you

I wanted to join the "I'm with Redstone" crew. Cripes, some people really are losing it over there. Talk about a circular firing squad...

[johnnie]

15. Yeah yeah yeah

Now take these and get back in there man.

[Lady Freedom]

28. and remember the fire proof underwear!!!!

They are hot!!

[mcscajun]

16. Without even visiting the thread, I can tell you this...

...reason is sometimes the most UNwelcome visitor, especially online.

When people are on full tilt, no amount of sense or rational thought penetrates...and they attack the reasonable person.

I've seen it happen time and again on all kinds of boards and chats. I've been the voice of reason and been the one piled on, too.

Take a Deep Breath, and a break.

[ofrfxsk]

23. Sorry. No pity for you here and our imaginations aren't running wild.

This disgrace is dead-on racist reality.

[democracyindanger]

25. Anybody got some grain or bird food?

Maybe that will draw Redstone back into the thread he started.

[SOteric]

26. So, what you're saying is,

roughly: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Or in this case '...attribute to racism...explained by incompetence.'

However sensible your point may be, it's equally sensible to point out that these two characteristics are not mutually exclusive.

Indeed, they can be blended to myriad variable.

To my thinking, the only criterion that should be relevant is urgency of need. That hasn't seem to be the criterion used.

I'm not there, and I'm not privy to the thoughts, inner workings and general character of those on either side of the victim/rescuer equation. I will rule out neither racism nor incompetence.

[jpgray]

34. Well, lacking evidence of malice, it's best to go with stupidity

It's the same problem with the racist looting arguments people have made here. The racism argument goes: since mostly blacks are being allowed to die, the authorities are engaging in racist behavior. The looting argument goes: since mostly blacks are looting (or most of the coverage is of them, whatever), blacks must be predisposed to looting. It's the same dumb bit of logic--in both instances status better describes the problems. The gov't didn't have a plan for the poor, and the poor have the most reasons to loot as a result--the race of the poor in NO doesn't really drive the behavior in either case. Racism certainly could have an effect, but I've seen no evidence that it has inspired some malicious racial pogrom via the authorities. In lieu of that evidence, I go with incompetence and a lack of planning for the poor, since as a hypothesis it fits the facts and doesn't assume anything not in evidence.

[SOteric]

41. If it were necessary for me

to make a decision today whether it were stupidity or malice, I might default to a working theory much as you describe.

However, there's time yet for more information to be made available and for more of this to play out; and I've no one demanding my opinion be formed on current data only. So, for the time being, I'm not ruling anything out.

[July]

76. Smartest reply so far.

Could be one, could be both. Certainly, we can't rule out either.

[JanMichael]

35. And enjoying the attention so much that you did a thread on your thread

is this the racism thread?

If it is, I honestly wondered if you understood the concept of institutionalized racism.

Stephanie

[Misunderestimator]

37. I'm amazed at the number of people here who don't understand that concept

at all. :shrug:

[JanMichael]

39. Yep. I wondered if the poster was white, and one of "us" who have

benefited from that his or her life too.

I get sick of people that think that one can always recognize racists because they will be wearing white hoods.

Stephanie

[jpgray]

74. Yes, Redstone is clearly having a great time here

Did he shoot your dog?

[ezekiel333]

38. How about you

Reply and not run away after the disaster YOU started.

[JanMichael]

40. I put fewer people on ignore on 9/11

I'm just sayin......

btw, this is Stephanie, not Michael....

;)

[ezekiel333]

42. Yep n/t

[LoZoccolo]

44. How about you

respect your elders your first week here?

[ezekiel333]

46. How about you think before you post.

Perhaps one should check the year, as in 2004. Some of us have lives and do not post non stop.

[LoZoccolo]

57. How about you

respect your elders who have been here more than you.

[Misunderestimator]

61. What the hell are you talking about? Are you going to call yourself

my elder too? :rofl: This is hilarious.

[ezekiel333]

65. Respect is earned

You have not.

[LoZoccolo]

71. I wasn't asking for it.

Oasis was more popular than the Beatles in the 90s.

[ezekiel333]

73. Well...

You are correct. In fact they may still be more popular, but then, that would be cause for more discussion at some future date.

Good night and be well. :)

[JanMichael]

47. s/he's right

I was here a first week too, and got my ass kicked by NSMA all over the damned place....

Stephanie

[Misunderestimator]

52. Yeah, but you probably liked that.

;) :D

[JanMichael]

54. Well, yeah...I mean, it was probaly weird for her when I started...well...

following her and begging for more, more, MORE!!!!

But, well...then I met Michael, and you met NSMA...

and now it's time for a DC foursome!!!

OH CRAP! Did I write that????

[Misunderestimator]

63. LOL! Yes you did.

:spray:

[democracyindanger]

49. How 'bout you

not get so high and mighty after racking up post counts on "Oasis is better than the Beatles" threads.

[Misunderestimator]

53. LOL

:spray:

[LoZoccolo]

55. Oh, I'm pretty sure I racked up about 200-400 posts doing that.

:boring:

[democracyindanger]

59. Sorry. I shouldn't question a DU "elder."

Do you get membership cards or flowing robes or something?

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

64. Oh no... then you're MY elder...

And you don't KNOW these things? :scared:

[ulysses]

51. "elders"?

:D I've been here a lot longer than you have. Where was the love?

[The Magistrate]

60. A Mere Spring Shower, Sir

Simply stretching exercises before the main event, that is all....

"There was a fella walkin' home from the bar in a drivin' rain, took a short-cut through the graveyard. He fell into an open grave, for a funeral in the morning, and no matter how he tried to climb out, kept sliding back down to the bottom, and he finally decided to make the besr of it and just lay there. Along comes another fella on the same short-cut, tumbles in, and the first fella watches him tryin' to climb out, and slidin' back down the muddy sides. He reaches out and touches him on the shoulder, says, 'You can't get out of here,' but he did....."

[Moderator]

77. Locking.

This thread has exhausted it's usefulness. Time to move along.