Another reason to detest Tim McGraw (as if I needed one).

[Redstone]

Can anybody be so OVER as to follow in the less-than-illustrious footsteps of Hank Jr by "adapting" the lyrics of one of his songs (which was lame enough to beging with) to serve as a "recap" of Sunday's games for halftime filler on Monday Night football?

Anyone who watched tonight will know what I'm talking about.

You're OVER, Timmy boy. And good riddance to you...

Redstone

[tcfrogs]

1. Um....

his wife is sort of cute.

[Redstone]

3. That she is, but he's utterly despicable.

Redstone

[Crazy Guggenheim]

5. How's that?

[Heidi]

6. One reason he's dispicable: "Indian Outlaw."

He didn't write it, but it was one of his first hits:

I’m an indian outlaw
Half cherokee and choctaw
My baby she’s a chippewa
She’s one of a kind

All my friends call me bear claw
The village cheaftin’ is my paw-paw
He gets his orders from my maw-maw
She makes him walk the line

You can find me in my wigwam
I’ll be beatin’ on my tom-tom
Pull out the pipe and smoke you some
Hey and pass it around

’cause I’m an indian outlaw
Half cherokee and choctaw
My baby she’s a chippewa
She’s one of a kind

I ain’t lookin’ for trouble
We can ride my pony double
Make your little heart bubble
Lord like a glass of wine

I remember the medicine man
He caught runnin’ water in my hands
Drug me around by my headband
Said I wasn’t her kind

’cause I’m an indian outlaw
Half cherokee and choctaw
My baby she’s a chippewa
She’s one of a kind

I can kill a deer or buffalo
With just my arrow and my hickory bow
From a hundred yards don’t you know
I do it all the time

They all gather ’round my teepee
Late at night tryin’ to catch a peek at me
In nothin’ but my buffalo briefs
I got ’em standin’ in line

’cause I’m an indian outlaw
Half cherokee and choctaw
My baby she’s a chippewa
She’s one of a kind

Cherokee people
Cherokee tribe
So proud to live
So proud to die

[Crazy Guggenheim]

9. Typical country. What gets me is the last verse of "Cherokee

People ..........." A rip off of Paul Revere.

[Heidi]

11. What gets _me_ is that Mr. McGraw used racial stereotypes

to catapult his career. :puke:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

12. Oh. That's what going on! I didn't know he did that.

[musette_sf]

60. actually... John Loudermilk wrote it

(but as a Raiders fan I was happy to see them have the hit with it.)

And to think I just adored Tim's daddy back in the day! too bad...

[WCGreen]

85. Mark Lindsey Man, not Paul Revere.....

[Redstone]

10. Thank you for posting that. He's none of the above;

he's a white-boy poser and has never been in the same fucking county as a buffalo. Or an Indian.

Fuck him, and the horse he would have rode in on if he knew how to ride one, which I doubt.

Redstone

[Heidi]

13. I dunno whether he's ndn or not, but

I believe that song did a lot of harm in terms of perpetuating negative (and untrue) stereotypes about Cherokees. (I don't know any Chippewa, but I grew up in the heart of the Cherokee Nation, and I can tell you that this song was _not_ well-received by Cherokees or Choctaws. In fact, former Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Wilma Mankiller officially denounced McGraw and the song.)

[Redstone]

19. She did? Good for her. I've always admired

her leadership.

And I don't believe that song was well-received by ANY Indians. It takes a lot to offend me, but that song sure did it.

Redstone

[Heidi]

22. "Indian Outlaw" is still part of McGraw's set list, too.

Sad, annit.

http://countrymusic.about.com/library/bl080502.htm

[Redstone]

26. Like I said, him and the horse he rode in on.

And it's kind of amazing to me that there are a few here who want to defend him.

You're a white girl (that's not an insult, just and observation), and YOU know what trash that song is.

Too bad others don't get it.

I cannot thank you enough for joining in this thread with your cogent observations.

Redstone

[musette_sf]

61. and furthermore

his daddy was a New York Met. At least if Dad had been an Atlanta Brave, I could *almost* understand :eyes: But there's no excuse for a song like this any more.

[Zomby Woof]

46. Although not my cup of tea, I have to laugh at all of this

I worked with a couple of Navajo women - smart, independent women who don't take shit from anyone, including their husbands - and they not only love Tim McGraw, but have no problem with this song.

It's just PC bullshit run amok - white person's paternalism (white liberal guilt by any other name) - to worry and fret and get one's ire up over a silly song like that.

[Heidi]

55. You're mistaken.

I don't have any white liberal guilt. I'm one-eighth Cherokee and was raised in and around the heart of the Cherokee Nation. Mr. McGraw needs not to pass himself off as a big Liberal when he has nothing more than a $7,500 donation in 2004 to support that claim.

If you'd like more details about how damaging "Indian Outlaw" has been to perception of Cherokees, I'd be happy to oblige.

[Zomby Woof]

72. I have Cherokee ancestry myself

And you failed to address the opinions of 2 full-blooded Navajo - are they less enlightened than you? They aren't ones to shy away from racists when they encounter them.

The song may be stupid, but it is taken way too seriously.

Where is this Cherokee Nation you speak of? The one before or after Andrew Jackson made them haul ass?

[Zomby Woof]

76. If people allow their self-image to be defined by A SONG

Then they have bigger problems you are ignoring. BIGGER problems. I find it laughable that the Cherokee allow a NOVELTY SONG to affect their self-image. :rofl: If anyone hates the Cherokees because of a Tim McGraw song, then they too are in need of help.

[Redstone]

67. I'm not a white person, so you can cancel the paternalism statement

any time you'd like to.

Redstone

[Zomby Woof]

73. I won't cancel it

Your PC sensibilities trump your heritage this time. You are also trumped by a few thousand members of the Navajo Nation - country music is VERY popular with them, and they love McGraw.

It is just a fucking SONG. Some perspective is in order. :eyes:

[Redstone]

79. OK, fine.

Redstone

[tcfrogs]

8. I don't like him either but...

Faith Hill is quite attractive. You cannot deny that.

[Redstone]

14. So, he has a pretty wife...that doesn't excuse him for being

what he is.

Redstone

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

48. Cute....

but she can't sing.

[Skittles]

74. OMG she is AWFUL

SO OVERRATED

[Ron Mexico]

83. It's unconscionable to point that out unless

you were prepared to post a picture. Shame, my friend. SHAME.

[Heidi]

2. Mr. McGraw burned his bridges with me

when he recorded that hideous, bigoted "Indian Outlaw" ditty a few years ago. What a dumba$$.

[Redstone]

7. That's why I'll never forgive the son of a bitch.

I'm an American Indian, and I don't get insulted or offended easily, but that song was SO crass and blatantly pandering, it penetrated even my armor.

Truly unforgivable. I'd get out of a warm bed and cross a cold room barefoot to shut off a radio that was playing one of his songs.

Plus, he's a talentless hack. Let's not forget that aspect.

Redstone

[Crazy Guggenheim]

4. I wouldn't turn it down.

[tcfrogs]

15. I thought that he was a Democrat

Throw away the PC stuff that he violated with "Indian Outlaw"...he was trying to get into the business.

I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Heidi]

16. This isn't flamebait, but would it be OK if I

broke into the business by recording and promoting a song perpetuating negative stereotypes about blacks, Jews and/or Latinos? It's more than a question of political correctness.

[maveric]

17. He's a dem.

http://www.newsmeat.com/celebrity_political_donations/Tim_McGraw.php

[Heidi]

18. Sorry, but being a Democrat doesn't give any of us a free pass

to insult people and perpetuate racial stereotypes.

[tcfrogs]

20. Not intending to flame this

but what exact lyrics are inflammatory/derisive to American Indians?

[Redstone]

23. Too many to list. But we can start with the fact that he's not

an Indian, and sings about being one.

I do not have the time to expiate all the ways in which that song is insulting and degrading.

But trust me, it is.

Redstone

[HuskerDU]

45. Downthread, I listed numerous other singers who have written

songs about Native Americans. Is it ok for them to sing them, even though they aren't Native Americans? To me (a non-Native American) they increase awareness of the horrible truth and that is a good thing.

[Heidi]

54. To me, as 1/8 Cherokee . . .

Tim McGraw perpetuated racist stereotypes about Cherokee spirituality ("medicine man"), the matrilineal Cherokee system, living practices (Cherokees never lived in wigwams or tipis, even before Removal), etc.

It's not inherently wrong to sing a song about Indians. What's wrong is perpetuating bigoted, erroneous stereotypes in order to pander to the mainstream. Tim McGraw might be a really nice guy, but 11 years ago, Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Wilma Mankiller officially denounced the song, and he's heard from many, many American Indians about this issue, which still is part of his concert play-list, 11 years after its release.

Just sayin, folks.

[Heidi]

24. Redstone, would you care to address this? (nt)

[Redstone]

28. Have done so.

I'd go through it line-by-line, but I'm too tired.

If there's anyone who doesn't understand, after your posts and mine, they're beyond reasoning with.

Thanks again for your participation. I owe you one.

Redstone

[Redstone]

21. So what? He's a hack, and a panderer, and a racist.

That trumps Democrat in my book.

Redstone

[tcfrogs]

25. Hack and panderer, perhaps

but racist?

Damn, never mind. You don't like Tim McGraw. Cool with me Redstone.

[Redstone]

27. Sorry, but yes, racist. If you were a Catholic, would you be happy

with someone singing a song that made the Sacraments seem like a children's playground game?

I bet you wouldn't.

That's exactly what the lyrics of that song do, in the part about the Medicine Man, which I won't dirty my computer with repeating here.

Redstone

[tcfrogs]

29. OK

Lyrics and words are just that. Depends on how one interprets them. I don't believe that Tim McGraw was intending to offend American Indians. He was trying to sell records. Did he offend people? Yes. Should he be allowed to sing that song? Hell yes.

[Redstone]

30. As I told you, I don't get offended easily. But if he didn't realize

what an offensive piece of shit that song is, then he's pretty goddamned ignorant.

And I didn't say anything about "allowing" him to sing that song. He can sing it all he wants. And I'll despise him for doing so.

And you can defend him all you want. I don't know why you're doing that, but hey, it's a free country, so go ahead.

Redstone

[tcfrogs]

31. I'm only defending his right to say it

Offensive/ignorant or whatever it is.

Plenty of things that I don't like, and I have complained/ranted myself on a few rare occasions here. It just seemed to me that you got all riled up about him tonight.

[Heidi]

32. I totally defend his right to sing it, even after he was

educated about the content by the former Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation and countless Native Americans. Redstone and I got riled up about it because we know intimately how Tim McGraw's ignorance perpetuates negative and untrue racial stereotypes.

The reason I defend McGraw's right to sing this song is because it's his constitutional right. On the personal side, I believe it's better for racists, bigots, etc., to operate in the open; they're more dangerous when they're forced underground. I sort of like that Tim McGraw's allowed to perform that hideous song, over and over again, so that people can witness his ignorance for themselves and make informed decisions about him. :shrug:

That's all I'm sayin. Sorry if I've offended you in any way, tcfrogs.

[tcfrogs]

34. It's all good, Heidi - no offense taken

Just a bit riled up myself tonight. Been reading a bit too much about politics lately, and didn't want to see it in a lounge thread.

[LostinVA]

40. I'll say he's not a hack -- he's a really good singer

[LostinVA]

39. He's a major dem, and is one of the few country singers who

stuck up for the Dixie Chicks, along with his wife and literally a few others.

Should he have recorded "Indian Outlaw"? No. But, I have a friend in the business, and was told odds are McGraw had to record the song re: his contract. So, I'm not judging, especially since he's done some pretty decent stuff since then, including recording the pro-choice "Red Ragtop," which pissed off alot of country listeners.

[Heidi]

52. Does his contract say "Indian Outlaw" has to be in his set-list 11 years

after its release?

Being a good, contributing Dem gives _no one_ a free pass to behave as a bigot.

[xmas74]

70. He's supposedly very pro-choice.

Don't know actual political affliation but I've read that he's rather liberal in his views.

[knowbody0]

33. sigh...

[Fridays Child]

35. Maybe he could take up underwear modeling...

Here he is, doing his best Jeff Gannon pose...

[Heidi]

36. Kick. This is worth discussing. _without inflammatory content_. (nt)

[HuskerDU]

37. I have never heard 'Indian Outlaw' and frankly I run the other

direction when ANY new country is being played. But why can't a non-Indian sing songs about Indians?

The Minutemen sang about the genocide of Native Americans. Is it ok since it's DBoon- the ultimate punk rock lefty? Iron Maiden sang 'Run to the Hills' about the white man raping and murdering Indians. Even the despicable Ted Nugent sang 'Great White Buffalo' where the Indians use every part of the Buffalo they hunt while the 'white dogs' just waste 'em. Johnny Cash sang often about the plight of the American Indian as has his understudy Marty Stuart.

To me these songs (even Terrible Ted's) have brought the issue of Indian injustice to the masses and that is a good thing.

Again, I haven't heard the McGraw song to judge for myself, but are these others ok?

[Heidi]

47. None of that crap is OK with me. But I don't believe

the bigots should be denied a constitutionally-guaranteed right to express themselves. The "up" side is that we know who they are and what they think.

[HuskerDU]

56. So Johnny Cash and DBoon are bigots?

I am sorry, but I beg to differ.

[Heidi]

57. Welcome to DU.

None of us get a free pass to behave as bigots. Sorry. You and I will have to agree to disagree.

[HuskerDU]

62. So singing about the plight of folks from another race is

considered bigoted huh? That doesn't fly IMO.

Prove to me that good folks like Johnny Cash, Dboon, Bob Dylan, and Neil Young are bigoted. They all sang songs about issues that affected folks of a different race. They made people of all races aware of issues that they might not have known.

The RW would rather that it be forgotten that the USA committed genocide against Native Americans. People like Johnny and D made sure that some of us don't forget.

[Redstone]

64. Once more, the song is NOT about the PLIGHT of Indians. It's moronic

and childish.

If anyone had recorded a song like that with black people or Christians as the subject, they'd have been pilloried in public.

On edit: And rightly so.

Redstone

[HuskerDU]

71. I agree with you. However what is wrong with Iron Maiden

singing the song 'Run to the Hills' or the Minutemen singing about the genocide of the Native Peoples, or Johnny Cash devoting an entire album to the plight of Native Americans? Or for Bob Dylan or Neil Young singing about racism against blacks?

Because these folks are all white- that means they should shut up about injustices?

[Redstone]

81. That's a reasonable question, and deserves a reasonable answer:

In all those cases they were being sympathetic and realistic.

If you look up thread at the lyrics that Heidi posted, you can see that this song is utterly jejune.

Kind of like the difference between Dion singing the praises of MLK in in his famous song "Abraham, Martin, and John," and another white guy singing "I's sholey likes mah watermelon after I collects my weffare check, I does..."

Make sense now?

[JohnnyBoots]

69. I think the Nebraska Corn Huskers are bigoted against farmers....

sarcasm.

[Heidi]

84. This thread isn't about Johnny Cash, Dboon, Bob Dylan or Neil Young.

It's about Tim McGraw. I haven't leveled a single criticism at any of those performers.

"Indian Outlaw" doesn't address our country's genocide again Native Americans. It makes fun of Cherokees and Choctaws and perpetuates racial stereotypes. Did you even read the lyrics to the song?

[JohnnyBoots]

68. Apparently anyone who does not walk on eggs shells is a bigot these days.

[Redstone]

63. The song isn't sympathetic, it's pathetic. Almost nursery-rhyme-ish.

Truly dreadful. I'd be ashamed to admit I ever wrote sotmething that stupid, much less accept payment for it.

Redstone

[mvd]

38. Except for the "Indian Outlaw" thing..

I like him. He and Faith seem like a classy couple. Tim's music might not be up at Alan Jackson or George Strait level, but it often entertains me.

[Taverner]

41. "Indian Outlaw" proves he's a dumbass

But not a complete asshole, certainly not in the realm of Charlie Daniels or Darrel Worrley.

[mvd]

42. I don't think it proves that

I think it was misguided - not malicious.

[Taverner]

43. Hence Dumbass and not Asshole :)

Basically there are two kinds of racism. Racism By Malice and Racism by Ignorance. The latter is easier to forgive.

[mvd]

44. Disagreed with both

I think he has some Native American blood, and thought he was honoring them. The video was the tasteless thing, but we all can make mistakes. Even the most liberal of us.

[Heidi]

50. Please cite a reference showing that he's Cherokee, Chippewa or Choctaw.

(nt)

[mvd]

59. I thought I heard he did

Maybe I'm mistaken. Still, I think he learned from the controversy.

[Redstone]

66. I'd forgive him in a heartbeat if he'd announce that he's not going to

sing that song, ever again.

We all make mistakes; acknowledging them and doing what we can to rectify them goes a long way toward gaining forgiveness.

Redstone

[Heidi]

49. It's still on his concert set-list,

11 years after its original 1994 release, after having been told by many Cherokees and Choctaws, and denounced by the former principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, that the song was bigoted, insensitive and perpetuated erroneous racial stereotypes about Cherokees. How's that "misguided," and not pandering to the worst of popular appetite?

Just askin'?

[Redstone]

65. Charlie Daniels. Now there's a recidivist old crock, all right.

Redstone

[Taverner]

77. Not only that

Apparently he has a song called "Be Kind to N's" that is blatantly racist that he does in concerts....

[Redstone]

80. That's no suprise, though I'd never have know if you hadn't told me.

If I happened to have the TV on and he was on it, the channel would get changed real quick.

Redstone

[nini]

51. Sorry.. I like Tim McGraw

He's a good guy and Hank Jr. is the piece of crap if you want to compare the character of these two men.

[Heidi]

53. What makes you think he's a good guy?

Really, I want to be convinced. Anyone with that much money can contribute $7,500 to Democratic causes. http://www.newsmeat.com/celebrity_political_donations/Tim_McGraw.php

I'm just askin.

[Beaverhausen]

58. I heard he threatened to fire anyone on his crew who voted for Bush

at least he is on our side politically.

[Zomby Woof]

75. He is on our side in all ways

I think the fuss about 'Indian Outlaw' is much ado about nothing. Zappa got similar flak for 'Jewish Princess', and told the ADL where to stuff it when they protested. Hell, his wife was Jewish, so it makes the sanctimonious puffery about it, and McGraw, just a load of shit.

[JohnnyBoots]

78. Why would we want an ally who is popular in Red state America, by

all means let's ostracize the guy for political correctness. That will win over votes in the netherworld of NASCAR America.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

82. I like him OK

As far as the song "Indian Outlaw" goes, I'm 1/8th Cherokee and am not offended. My dad's 1/4 Cherokee and is not offended. I don't think a blanket statement can be made that all Indians think it's a bigoted song.

[BamaGirl]

86. I guess I'm completely out of touch with my

heritage. No doubt that is not surprising since I grew up in Atlanta. :shrug: Anyway, I'm 1/4 Cherokee. He's a hack and the "Indian Outlaw" song all the griping about is stupid, but I never thought it was particularly offensive. Guess I need to be educated. ;)