To those complaining about obnoxious children in public...

[Telly Savalas]

where do you live? Seriously.

In the last decade I've been mildly annoyed by an unruly child just once. I encounter far more whining in a "kids at store" or "kids at restaurant" thread at DU than I do on an actual trip to a store or restaurant. This is the experience of my friends and acquaintances as well.

So I'm led to wonder if this is some sort of geographic issue. Is it that in some areas of North America parents encourage their kids to behave like feral beasts? Or is it just that the people complaining are hypersensitive?

I'm not talking about those who have an isolated encounter with a crazed child. I mean those who claim to deal with inappropriate behavior on a regular basis. These complaints are so far removed from the experience of anyone I know that something must be going on. If it really is a geographical consideration, then I want to know so I can be aware of places I never want to live.

[Clintmax]

1. Hello, Telly...

I manage a retail store and I can tell you that every single day, there are parents who bring in children that are allowed to move like a tornado through my store! They knock shit over, scream at the top of their lungs, pull stuff off the shelves and on more than one occasion, has broken something.

I don't think geographic location has anything to do with it. It is bad parenting.

After these people leave, my store looks like a tornado took up residence inside, and it takes me and my associates a while to put everything to rights again.

I say, keep your children with you at all times when you are in a store and if they become little posessed hellions, leave the store immediately.

[Telly Savalas]

11. But my point

is that I don't witness such bad parenting with anywhere near the frequency that it gets complained about here. That's why I'm asking about geographical considerations.

A store left in a state of disarray is evidence that you're not being hypersensitive. It's a clear sign of irresponsible parenting, but nevertheless it blows my mind. I never witness this sort of thing. It's not like I'm living in a fog either. If I saw parents act with such negligence then it would be added to my laundry list of pet peeves next to dicks who ride their bicycles on crowded sidewalks, couples who have marital spats at high volumes in public, the "I know you'll appreciate the bass of my car stereo" club, and loud drunken assholes. But I don't witness such parenting, so hence the question arises: is this a phenomenon which occurs much more in some areas than others?

[RoyGBiv]

37. I doubt it is geographic ...

I think it's personal, as in a pet peeve sort of thing that makes certain behaviors, people, events, etc. more noticeable to some individuals than others.

I have worked with the public all my working life. I see obnoxious kids and adults on a regular basis. When they're gone from my presence, they are out of my consciousness. It's not something I can affect directly, and I have more important things to consume my energies, so I let it go.

Others seem to have a burning need to share their frustrations with others.

[Az]

12. Amazed me

Was standing there in a book store and a family of 5 was near by. One of the kids was rather boisterous and walked up to one of the rotating displays of books, grabbed it, and gave it a huge spin sending books flying everywhere. Everyone watched in horror. The mother dropped down, grabbed the kid, and demanded to know why he did it. Without missing a beat the kid said, "I didn't do it, he did" and pointed at his little brother 10 feet away.

:wtf:

[Rabrrrrrr]

21. And what did the parent do?

[Az]

24. Stared

Everyone there was pretty much stunned at the guts of the kid. Its not like we were looking away when he did it.

[bliss_eternal]

41. Hi Clintmax--

I've noticed what you speak of. As a child, we were not allowed to touch ANYTHING. Most of those that would be considered my peer group have similiar recollections of childhood--it just wasn't done.

I honestly attribute a lot of todays 'lawlessness' in children to several things. So I don't have a post that goes on for eons, I'll just say there's a whole generation that was given the message of a hand's off approach to parenting. You'll see many of them on those shows like Supernanny. They would rather be their kids' friends than their parents.

I worked in retail for a while several years ago, and saw EXACTLY what you did--this is not new. It's been going on a while.

[jmm]

2. When I worked in retail I dealt with obnoxious children regularly

yet when I worked with children my adult coworkers acted more feral than the kids. People act inappropriately at all ages atleast the children have an excuse.

[Coventina]

6. Obnoxious children grow up to be obnoxious adults

That's what good parents are supposed to prevent.

[barb162]

15. I think there's more lack of parenting skills these days

[Rabrrrrrr]

23. I don't think it's so much lack of skills; it's lack of desire.

People wants kids to show them off to their friends "Look, we fucked!", and then realize a few years later that the showcasing of the baby was fun, but now the responsibility is just a pain in the ass, so let 'em do what they want because, hey, the parent (this hypoethetical one, not all) only had kids for selfish reasons anyway, and that parent is so selfish what the fuck do they want to waste their time teaching their kids to do stuff, when they have stuff to do themselves, like take them shopping at 9 pm and watching TV and stuff. So it's not surprising.

[barb162]

26. I think you're right

My one neighbor thinks I should give her a medal for keeping her 2 snots off my property and destroying things. I'm like: hey, that's what you should be doing anyway.

[Rabrrrrrr]

46. Oh, yeah, and that's a whole 'nother issue

the ol' "There, I did my job as expected, fucking reward me" attitude. "I filled your donut order without a mistake, now tip me generously" or "I washed your car and didn't scratch any paint off, so reward me" bullshit.

[barb162]

54. Bwaha, very well stated and oh so true.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. I see it rarely, but I have certainly encountered it.

Far more often, when I have an encounter or close-by with an out of control tantrum throwing idiot, it's an adult. Those instances, however, are generally tolerable; the out of control children I witness (or, perhaps I should say, those that are out of control enough to piss me off) are far more out of control than the asshole adults. When I worked retail, though - grocery store and drug store - I saw a lot of it, esp. in the drug store since it sure seemed to attract a certain kind of less evolved clientelle.

And it is especially bad with children because it also means their parents aren't doing a good job, and are raising a self-centered idiot who will become one of the assholes; or that the child is simply being neglected and will end up owning a meth lab, or suffer in other ways in society because they never learned how to properly interact with other people.

Children should be raised to be, when in public, self-controlled, observant and considerate of other people, and patient. And that training begins as a very small child.

So the screaming child in restaurant or at store (and this scenario assumes only those parents who don't take the child outside or otherwise deal with the inappropriate behavior) means BOTH that the child isn't being raised properly, and also that the parent doesn't give a flying fuck about other people.

It's one thing when some adults are boisterous assholes; it's quite another when a screaming child is left to scream and/or run around and/or have a tantrum, while the parent(s) blithely goes(go) about their business, not giving a shit, talking with their friends or what-have-you.

[liberalitch]

4. generally I encounter far more adults who act like feral beasts....

so naturally one can expect the same as their children. I am rarely annoyed by kids in public. I AM annoyed by parents who viciously beat their kids in public.... shows me that the rules were never made clear at home.... now they want the kid to be some sort of saint?!?! NOW YOU KNOW....

I was taught how to behave in public BEFORE we went out.

[Fleshdancer]

5. Some of them might live in tourist destinations

:shrug:

Retail is hell too. Lately there has been an increase in kids running wild in my local grocery store. As if being annoyed at the adults who either leave their carts in the middle of the aisle or pay with checks in the express line wasn't annoying enough...

[bettyellen]

7. i've seen it alot in ny and nj, and the parents are to blame usually

they are without exception as rude as the kids. last time i was at the beach i heard a parent scream at some one for just saying Hey in an annoyed manner when their kids kicked piles of sand in the persons face. the attitude was how dare you, kids are supposed to be out of control. it seems that the parents who don't have a grip are at their wits end and really pissed at the suggestion they need to exert control. the kids learn pretty fast not to give a shit about other people. i feel sorry for the parents, but it doesn't excuse their rudeness either.

[WCGreen]

8. Live in the Bosom of Yuppieville like I do....

and you will see the precious brats at every stage of arrested development.....

The parents are so zoned into making money that they feel they are neglecting the kids so they shower them with everything they want, including a self centered outlook on life....

Consideration for others is a fast disappearing in the wilds of suburban consumerism......

[Telly Savalas]

19. I think this might be it.

Currently I live in a neighborhood heavily populated by Urban Socialist Yuppies (for the lack of a better demographic term): folks who have the resources to live in McMansions, but instead opt for living in a densely populated area close to public transportation and cultural amenities. They tend to be politically left-leaning and community oriented. For such folks, their kids are a priority. I see 'em very engaged with their children and probably even more crucial they treat them with respect. (As opposed to the neglect you describe, or the freeperish "control your children" mentality many supposedly liberal DUers have.) As a result of this, the children are generally very well behaved.

Before moving here, I lived in a laid back midwest college town that had a similar mentality. So it could be the case that I haven't spent too much time around self-absorbed yuppie assholes in the last decade, I haven't had to deal with their incorrigible offspring either.

[WCGreen]

22. It's borderline child abuse....

Leaving the kids to basically run free... With a credit card....

Now if that happened in the Inner City, why social services would be called pronto....

Anything, I guess, is excusable.....

If you have money......

[crispini]

27. That's where I live!

Perfect description, thank you! :thumbsup:

[tigereye]

55. ya know I don't see out of control kids that much, either

unless they are in my office. ;)

Yes, some parents let their kids run wild, but most of us don't. I think there is a line between kids running amok and kids who are scared to move or breathe. There must be a happy medium somewhere.

:shrug:

[supernova]

9. I wonder if it's a case of

the parent keeping the child out and about past their tolerance level without a break?

When you're with kids, you have to schedule breaks where they can sit down, have something to eat and drink, go to the potty, etc. IWO, keep to something like the normal routine they have at home. And go home when it's nap time.

It's usally when you upest their routine that the little "darlings" get wild.

And you have to tell them what you expect of them, before you go.

But sometimes, even with that, kids will act out. Part of being a kid is not knowing how to control yourself. And that's when you go home.

[drumwolf]

10. I agree with you, Telly.

For the past year just up until a couple of weeks ago, I worked part-time (on the weekends) at Tower Records near Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, a major tourist destination. I can tell you that I rarely ever got pissed off by children.

In fact, I rarely ever dealt with assholes who were younger. Of the customers I dealt with who were inconsiderate or nasty, the overwhelming majority of them were adults who'd already passed their early '30s.

[SmokingJacket]

13. I feel like it must be geographical...

because I've only rarely encountered it myself.

Of course, I also take a perverse pleasure in it: it makes me feel like a superior parent. :)

[barb162]

14. I am in a suburb and I have 2 boys on both sides and the parents

do not monitor them. It is very bad as I would describe both sides as having juvenile delinquents. Now I lived in a different house in the same suburb where there were 4 boys and two boys on the sides and it was no problem ever. It just depends on the parents and if they properly teach and monitor their kids.

[bliss_eternal]

43. Your in the suburbs, I was in the inner city and saw it, too...

Our last apt. building, made the grave mistake of letting a woman move in as a favor to a guy that did some electrical work. What a nightmare!

Her kids absolutely terrorized the building. Single mother, yelled at them frequently, fought with the boyfriend at all hours of the night. But the kids--oy! They were frequently truant to care for her youngest child, who was not yet school aged. They did everything but set that building on fire...

Yet, she got pissed off with tenants that complained, like WE were the problem and the reason her kids were horrible! :wtf: Anyone that complained, got cussed out by her--

So she taught her kids that bad behaviour was just great, and as long as you yell and defend the behaviour to others the more ok it is.

Again, :wtf:

[supernova]

16. I'm noticing a theme

It's people who work in retail or in the hospitality industry who have to suffer/watch these meltdowns since they serve the public every day.

Those of us who go about our daily lives and only spend an hour or two in a public space, don't notice it that much. Or only on special occasions like games, or fairs, etc.

[Telly Savalas]

17. Such people would certainly be more exposed to inappropriate behavior

but for those of us who only spend several hours a week in the public sphere, the time adds up. Over the last decade, I've spent several thousand hours in a public space and the worst I've seen is one incident a couple of boys being a bit rowdy in a doctors office, in contrast to those in retail who report seeing this sort of thing every day.

[NuttyFluffers]

61. i wholly support 2 year conscripted retail service for everyone.

then everyone can see how obnoxious and exasperating the populace is, children, parents, brats of all ages.

i believe civility has all but died in disconnected suburban america and if it needs to be forcibly injected through the suffering of retail, so be it. i have no pity or sympathy for screaming children or their self-absorbed parents. it was all beaten out of me through retail. it's a miracle i didn't beat someone back.

[DS1]

18. I'm in the NorthEast, and we're overrun by snotty kids brought up

by their 'entitled' parents.

[skygazer]

20. Okay, another retail worker here

I work in a busy grocery store so you can imagine I see a lot of kids in the course of a day. Naturally, I see some who are misbehaving - with the sheer numbers of kids I see, it would be surprising indeed if I didn't.

But truth to tell, I think the vast majority of kids I see are behaving perfectly appropriately. Oh, sometimes they're laughing and joking with each other, or perhaps pointing at things or maybe not walking right next to mom but wandering a bit. But they're not running, screaming, knocking things down, poking fingers in the meat wrappings, whining, crying, rubbing snot on the shelves, etc. Those kids I see on average of once or twice in the span of a week - as I said earlier, when you consider the sheer number of kids I see, that's pretty good.

Of the kids I do see misbehaving, I would say only a fraction of them are doing so because they have clueless, lousy parents (and I may be wrong about them, too). Most of them are obviously tired, or bored, or ill, or hungry and are simply acting out because of those things. Okay, in a perfect world, we wouldn't bring a tired, bored, ill or hungry kid to the store but it's not a perfect world and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. Though my kids rarely misbehaved in public (thank goodness), I know there were times when I had to bring them out even though it wasn't a good time for them. Shit happens.

The level of invective around here aimed at parents and kids is incredible sometimes. Yes, bratty children can be obnoxious and no one (including the parent and usually ESPECIALLY the parent) wants to listen to them but I'd be willing to bet that not every adult on this board who bitches about them is always the most pleasant person to be around either. We all have bad days and kids are less well equipped to deal with them than adults are.

As adults, and as supposedly progressive adults, you'd think people would be a little less judgmental. I see less venom aimed at freepers and lousy drivers around here than I do small children crying in restaurants.

[wildeyed]

40. Excellent observations.

I, too, worked in retail for years and years. I don't remember ever being really annoyed by kids in the store. I think some people here have unrealistic expectations of how children should behave. Statistically, they are likely to become parents themselves at some point, so they will get theirs.

I had some young, childless friends over the other night. I think they were astounded by how active my 2 year old son is. He was in fine spirits and he wasn't misbehaving. But he didn't stop moving for the entire two hours they were over. Which is pretty normal behavior for a two year old boy. It would not be normal for an adult. I think some judge the children by adult standards.

[Arugula Latte]

42. Yes. We had an incident this summer.

At a big family gathering in a restaurant. I brought paper, pens, books 'cuz my kids would be sitting for a long time w/boring (to them) adult conversation. I was sort of underhandedly criticized by a (childless) family member for having "props" and distractions for the kids. Geez, here I thought I was being a responsible parent and thinking through some of the stumbling blocks I might encounter as the evening wore on. This was not the first comment that had been made by this person. The kicker? This person + spouse will be having a baby soon. They will find out what it takes to parent a child 24/7. Bwa ha ha.

[bliss_eternal]

44. Wow--those people sound so clueless!

What did they expect a child to do for all that time, with a bunch of adults? Of course children get bored! It was great you brought something for them to do...

I get frustrated with people that DON'T get kid's behaviour, for not understanding that sometimes children acting out is very normal. Learning to adjust based on the children's needs is part of being a parent (or at least that's how I see it...lol).

I get so pissed when at amusement parks and children are screaming and crying because their parents are trying to make the poor kids get on a ride THEY (the parents) want to ride. :wtf: That is a big peeve of mine! If the kid is afraid, or intimidated, let them be--don't friggin' force them to get on something just because YOU want to do it! Some are so damned selfish these days!

[Arugula Latte]

51. I know! Some people just don't get it.

Kids get tired and bored. That's a fact. You have to anticipate that and adapt.

I can't wait to see what happens, when, in a year or two or three this family member will be the one desperately trying to get through a restaurant or some other public outing with a young child w/out causing too much commotion.

[bliss_eternal]

53. That should provide you with some entertainment

and more than a tad of retribution! LOL!

My bil and sil are incredibly rigid with our neice and nephew. After a funeral, we were at someone's home for the obligatory snacks and conversation about the dearly departed. Anyway, our little nephew was playing under a table, and pretend shooting at me and dh. We were tickled by it, and played along with him... Our bil was irritated and kept ordering him to 'go sit still!' Come on!

He's a little boy with a bunch of boring ass grown-ups!! What ELSE was he supposed to do? And our nephew was rather mild about it, too...he wasn't out of control or even boisterous.

Just doing what a bored little boy would do...no harm, no foul. But the way bil acted, you would have thought the little guy was trying to incite rioting! :eyes:

[Rabrrrrrr]

47. Wow! As a childless person, I would have APPLAUDED you for

thinking so far ahead and bringing things for the kids to do!

That's just smart parenting!

[Arugula Latte]

49. Hey, thanks.

We try.

Most of the family is very understanding and very supportive, thank goodness.

[tigereye]

56. ah the voice of reason!

thank you skygazer! :thumbsup:

[chaska]

25. I've found that I can often stop children crying just by my beatific...

presence. I just smile at them and they stop. I amaze myself sometimes.

...Am I jeebus?

[China_cat]

28. Come to Charleston.

Over the last 32 years, I've had exactly 3 meals in GOOD (meaning non-chain, locally owned, expensive) restaurants without being subjected to wild, loud, nasty kids with parents who were oblivious.

[chaska]

34. Whoa, another S Carolinian (me too). We are running rampant here lately...

I'd be happy to come to Charleston. You payin'? I want grits and quail and boiled peanuts and some of that yummy fundy Maurice's mustard base barbecue and watermellon.

Hmm, there is a reason to miss the South. Who da thunk it?

[China_cat]

36. Hmm, there is a reason to miss the South

Get your sights checked and keep practicing. You'll get better.

You can have the grits. (We use them to kill fire ants) And the okra. Quail are not so popular any more and the price of boiled peanuts has gone through the roof. (Would you believe almost $4 for a small watermelon? And milk is $3.69/gal in the grocery stores)

[knowbody0]

29. as a foster parent

ive HAD to shop with as many as six kids at a time. before entering the store, everyone knew the rules. hands in your pockets or behind your back. stay with the cart. good behavior was rewarded with treats after leaving the store. watching the other kids lapping up ice cream cones was really effective.
children really do thrive when the boundaries are clear and the consequences consistant.
i realize this was not your question, but ive fostered over 50 little kids and always maintained respectful behavior, it ain't rocket science.

[wellstone dem]

33. Thank you for being a foster parent

As the mother of a child who lived in foster care for 4.5 years before I adopted her, I thank you for helping these kids be safe.

[knowbody0]

35. and thank you

i adopted three siblings deemed "unadoptable" nine years ago, so with my biological kids (grown) i have six kids and a grandkid. i am really blessed by them, they're awesome!
peace and love

[wildeyed]

39. Whoa, shopping with six kids at a time!

Amazing, you get a medal :patriot:

[bliss_eternal]

45. My husband was 30, and still went into stores w/his

hands behind his back. What his father taught him to do as a child was that ingrained in him.

Your post reminded me of that.

You sound like an awesome foster mom! Good for you! And you are great for those kids! :applause:

[friesianrider]

60. THANK YOU!

Not just for being a foster parent (and because of that, :yourock:) but for saying exactly what I was saying yesterday, and someone acted like I had no clue what I was talking about. You are exactly right: if boundaries are clear and the consequences consistent, children DO truly thrive and are well behaved. I said virtually verbatum what you did, and got attacked because I "didn't understand." I understand well - my Mom set clear boundaries and clear, consistent consequences with me, and I always knew what was expected of me and what would happen if I broke Mom's rules.

Kudos to you for being a foster parent, and it sounds like you were/are a GOOD parent too!

[knowbody0]

73. it's all about respect

following the logical path in life. cause no harm, follow the greater good.
thanks for the compliments. my life is rich with these little people. many are grown now and visit or phone us frequently.

[cssmall]

30. So what do you think of Michelle and I?

We let Cora run around sometimes, very rarely, when the store is not populated heavily and only when we are able to focus on her 100 per cent. Otherwise, she is in her stroller or in the seat in the cart. If she screams, she is disciplined once in the seat and then we take her to the bathroom or outside. If it continues after she gets a breath of air, a drink or a snack, then one of us goes out to the car (which has only happened once).

Alexis is older, so she can kinda go do her own thing if she gets bored. However, she can't go too far and we always check in on her. These are her rules: you will not be loud, you will not play with anything that might break something else or hit someone, you will not run through the store.

I think we're actually pretty damn good, especially since we've been working with Cora on being paitent and she says hi to everyone, or at least waves, but she does get loud and scream (only when she's tired, hungry or thirty). Then again, she's 19 months old. :shrug:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friesianrider]

58. Uhh...

"pro-abortionists want them all dead"

So because I support choice and don't like unruly obnoxious kids I would have preferred they be aborted?

And moreover, you think that anyone who supports choice "wants them all dead."

Uh, pardon me when I say :wtf:

[nini]

65. That is way over the top.. and insulting to those you just slammed

Please.. I raised a kid by myself and have a grandson now and I do NOT tolerate snotty kids in public. It is possible to raise a disciplined AND happy child. It is ok to expect a child to behave in public as much as I expect adults to follow certain rules of decency when around others.

NO ONE here has ever said children who are tired or just doing kid things is the problem. It's the parents who do not take the time to teach their children how to behave in public. Why is that so hard for sensitive Duer's to understand???

I guess using your logic I would have aborted my own child or made sure my grandson was aborted too so I would not have the challenges of parenthood.

YOU are the one who has the warped attitude to kids and parents if you could dare to say what you just did. Seriously, get a grip on this.

[Blue-Jay]

67. Almost nothing in your post is correct.

[Rabrrrrrr]

69. And this is not unusual, when it comes to making sweeping generalizations

about people's attitudes toward children.

Some people at DU simply and absolutely cannot comprehend that to criticize something does not mean that one must, ipso facto, utterly abhor and despise that something.

So, some of us say "Gosh, it's terrible when parents don't take screaming kids from restaurants", and that gets interpreted, by some, as though we're actually saying "All children should be killed or kept in pens until they're adults because kids are fucking intolerable on all levels and we hate them and despise them and not only do we not even want to LOOK at a child, we don't want to hear them, and, in fact, we don't even want them breathing our fair air."

We have a couple people on DU who can't make the distinction between criticizing bad behavior and hating all children.

[smbolisnch]

70. That has to be the most unintelligent thing I have ever read on DU.

And that is saying something. :eyes:

[Jamastiene]

32. Rockingham, NC and they are horrendous.

They whine about wanting candy. Their parents stand and gossip while the kids run rampant. Their parents are oblivious to what their kids are doing. Kids don't share the interest their parents do in grocery shopping. They don't want to spend an hour in the boring grocery store. They have been up most of the day and they are hinting they want a nap. It's simply body chemistry. Their bodies are telling them to rest and they get irratable. It's the parent's fault for gossiping instead of watching their children, but children do act that way in Wal-Mart and in the grocery stores here.

[wildeyed]

38. I'm going to go with oversensitive.

Or maybe some people have an unrealistic idea of what is appropriate behavior for children. Kids are different than adults. They have more energy, they make more noise, they have a lower threshold for frustration. It is not reasonable to expect that they will never leave the house until they hit 13 or whenever it is that they can be expected to behave in an adult-like manner.

I have worked in stores and malls. I go to banks, shop at grocery stores, travel on buses, subways and airplanes, eat at many restaurants. And I rarely remember even being conscious of other people's children, much less offended by them.

[bliss_eternal]

48. It seems to me, it is usually kids needing time and attention

Sure--there are many times that kids are brats, but let's think how they get that way...:think:

I spent a lot of time babysitting growing up and enjoyed kids. Still do, to an extent.

I guess from my time doing that as a kid,and a teenager I can (kind of) tell when kids are sincerely just tired and acting out for attention. There is a difference, between those that obviously don't have good boundaries in place from parents, and those that honestly need a hug, a nap, or someone to focus on them instead of what's on sale at the mall.

I've been out shopping and oddly, have had little kids come over and lift their arms up toward me, like they wanted me to pick them up. :wow: That always blows me away--like why would a kid just pick me out of a crowd and do that?

Anyway, while I would gladly oblige, I don't. (I don't want someone accusing me of evil)--but I sometimes will gently ask the kid, where's mommy or daddy and walk over with them to the parent...then let them know--hey your kid, is asking me--a stranger to hold them. Maybe they should go home now... :eyes:

How sad it is that they are seeking the attention of a stranger than that of a parent that is ignoring their needs to get one more thing at a sale?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. It happens about once a year

and sometimes in church.

I don't mind kids being exuberant. In my previous church, there was a preschool girl who used to dance in the aisle during the organ postlude. Everyone enjoyed watching her.

However, in that same parish, there was one single father who let his children slam the wooden kneeling benches on the wooden floor (an extremely sharp and percussive sound) repeatedly without reprimanding them. When I calmly went to their row (right behind mine), put my foot down on the kneeling bench, and glared at the kids, they stopped. However, the father angrily confronted me afterwards and accused me of "scaring his children."

Another couple had two little girls, four and six, who ran up and down the aisles during the service. At coffee hour, their parents joked about wishing that there were gates on the pews. Hello? Two kids, two parents, one of you hold on to each of them? The mother once bawled me out because I prevented the younger "angel" from climbing a rickety pile of folding chairs.

The kind of bad parenting that I see most often is the kind in which the parents are inconsistent, letting the kids run wild until THEY can't take it anymore, and then they start yelling and hitting. Sometimes the "trigger offense" is merely slightly annoying, and the reaction is disproportionate.

When I started teaching, my parents, who had both been public school teachers, told me that I should be very strict during the first two weeks and not tolerate any nonsense. Then I could let up, but doing the opposite--starting out all sweetness and light and then clamping down--was the road to disaster. I learned the hard way that they were right.

The same must be true of parenting: make your expectations of behavior clear, catch all infractions consistently for a while, and then you don't have to be so vigilant.

[distantearlywarning]

52. Happens all the time where I live - Western PA.

Just today I was at the IKEA store and some guy was blithely pushing along a stroller, gazing at all the items he was passing, and apparently having a grand old time. And meanwhile the 2-3 year old child in the stroller was SCREAMING and SOBBING at the top of it's lungs, pounding it's little fists on the stroller parts it could reach, grabbing at things it was passing, etc... Essentially throwing an enormous loud screaming tantrum. And his father didn't even seem to notice.

Not only was this very annoying to passersby and probably the store employees too (who were having to follow this guy around and pick up the stuff his child was grabbing off the shelves and throwing on the ground), but it honestly seemed a little cruel to the child too. I can't imagine that it was good for the child to be that unhappy and scream and scream and scream and receive no attention whatsoever, positive or negative. I hate to think what kinds of permanent conclusions the child was drawing about interpersonal interaction and getting one's needs met, as well as about appropriate store behavior.

And this was a typical incident. I see this kind of thing all the time.

ON EDIT: IKEA is out in the suburbs, right next to an extremely wealthy neighborhood. It is not uncommon to see multiple Hummers in the IKEA parking lot any time you go. And there are many, many W stickers on the vehicles. It's basically rich white suburban hell. And almost all of the "bad child" incidents I can remember recently happened in that area. I couldn't think of any that I saw recently in my own neighborhood - an 80% liberal, urban neighborhood with a very high level of education. Draw what conclusions you will from this little anecdote...

[wildeyed]

62. When a two year old is tantruming, there is not much you can do

about it. It is like a force of nature. It is also a completely normal occurrence during that particular developmental phase. Not a reflection on the quality of parenting, either.

If we are at home when mine blows, I will either move him to the center of the room so he won't bump his head, or move him to his room so he won't scare the dogs. But comforting, etc. doesn't work. If we are in public, there is not much you can do either, except ignore the nasty stares of judgmental strangers and wait for the tantrum to pass.

Note: I would not have allowed my child to throw items on the floor, I would have picked them up myself.

[Beware the Beast Man]

75. Ahh...Robinson Town Center.

Suburban sprawl from hell. I didn't even know North Fayette existed until 1996, when they started gouging out hillsides for Lowe's and Wal-Marts.

[smbolisnch]

76. I saw at that Ikea a few days ago that said

"I stand behind our president, George W. Bush." :puke:

[smbolisnch]

77. A bumper sticker, that should have said :) nt

[friesianrider]

57. Suburbs of Philly.

Lots of yuppies who just let their kids run amok. Just because Mommy and Daddy have learned to tune their rugrats out doesn't mean *I* have. Please keep all ankle biters' screaming to a minimum and tolerable decibel for those of us with some hearing left. Thanks!

[Telly Savalas]

64. Ankle biters. How quaint.

[friesianrider]

78. I know, I'm being too nice.

Wild animals was much more fitting a description, but I thought it was derogatory toward wild animals.

[Redstone]

59. Well, now, that's a hell of a post. I've been wondering the same

thing myself. The dichotomy of real-life-obnoxious-kid-encounter-frequency versus bitching-and-complaining-on-DU-about obnoxious-kid-encounters is indeed striking.

Wouldn't be because some people just don't like kids...nah, couldn't be.

Redstone

[wildeyed]

63. Maybe you are asking the wrong question.

Maybe the question should be, where in the US are people really intolerant of young children and have unreasonable expectations for their behavior?

And I will answer that to the best of my limited experience. I would say expensive urban areas that have large concentrations of young (relatively, lets say 25-35), college educated, childless people.

My parents live in Bethesda, MD, a fancy suburb right outside of NW DC. Also very liberal. And I get the NASTIEST looks from young white collar types for even daring to walk into an establishment with my child. I remember going to a coffee shop with my daughter about six months after she was born, and no lie, people were glaring at me before we even sat down. The baby hadn't made a peep. This has not been my experience in boring Charlotte, NC, where I live now.

[Lex]

66. Use Logic. Of course there are threads with people complaining . . . .

do you think people are going to log in and talk about a perfectly uneventful trip they had to the store?

:shrug:

[Telly Savalas]

71. Try reading the post before being so goddamn condescending.

Of course people aren't going to talk about uneventful trips to the store.

My point is that there are a number of posters who complain about such incidents happening with a radically greater frequency than I or other posters here experience. Many of us almost never encounter ill-behaved children whereas others complain of this happening all the time. Hence the question is whether this is attributed to some places having worse parents than others, or if it's just a matter of the complainers being hypersensitive.

[Lex]

72. Oh well it makes so much more sense now

:rofl:

[Dastard Stepchild]

68. I live in a rather large city...

I see it here, and in the surrounding suburbs. I suppose I don't pay much attention to it, though. I just assume it comes with the territory in certain ways. Shopping around here is always a nightmare just because there are throngs of people ALWAYS out and about. So, a screaming kid probably blends into the background cacophony.
I have figured out the exact days and hours in which my favorite grocery store will be nearly empty, and this is when I tend to do my shopping. :)

[Beware the Beast Man]

74. I think 80% of the stories I read here are complete bullshit.

That includes unruly children stories, and tales of fundie and Freeper encounters as well. If anything, I think public tantrums are funny.

[quiet.american]

79. Just out of curiosity, what region are you in? n/t

[Jokerman]

80. Nothing wrong with an occasional rant.

So somebody had a bad experience with someone else's kids and decided to rant about it on DU. Big deal.

It always amazes me the number of people just waiting for a negative comment about a child, any child, so they can jump all over it.

Yes, there are unruly children in the world and yes, some people get annoyed by unruly children. Maybe this doesn't happen where you live or to anyone you know but it does happen.

I've yet to see any attempt to outlaw or segregate bad parents and children so what's the harm in using DU to blow off a little steam?