bullets and blankies ~ the hunting of american youth

[bridgit]

Getting back to nine-year-old Samantha, sounding like the kid she is, she says, "Almost anything you hunt is pretty fun." She and her dad are proud of the fact that she shot her first deer when she was seven, and bagged her first turkey the same year. Both animals are trophies on a wall at home. This is America, so I guess your kid can hang whatever he or she wants to in your house. But personally, I like the idea of a kid's drawings being hung on the refrigerator, rather than a kid's killings being hung on the wall.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/21/opinion/garver/main871396.shtml

i'd thought of my Czarina Sugar Smack & her thoughts as to a ted nugent long-bowing american youth into one, long thin line

:spank: O8) :loveya: :hippie:

[XemaSab]

1. I may not agree with a lot of hunting

but at least they're more in touch with the environment than most city-dwellers.

[bridgit]

2. i noticed no mention of little Samantha...

personally opening the veins of her kill & hanging it upside down for the blood to drain out as is proper in preparation, just the shooting & mounting.

[XemaSab]

4. I'm not in a position to judge...

I think it's a bit morbid, but most people think *I'm* bit morbid, so hey...

[bridgit]

6. spent some time on 'hunting country', seen pickup trucks...

with bashed out racks of buck tied across the front bumper with no prepped out meat any where to be seen, true, it could have been packaged & sent back home...but make no mistake it is the trophy, beyond that; it is easy to pull a trigger imo

[XemaSab]

7. I think that's just wrong

but I've been lambasted for eating fish or collecting roadkill. Hence, the "I'm not in a position to judge."

[bridgit]

9. oddly, in certain parts of 'hunting country' it is illegal...

to collect roadkill for personal use :shrug: so i see what you mean & for that matter who am i to question what is predominately popular within the society alluded to in this link above & what is not

:patriot:

[xmas74]

13. It's perfectly legal here.

But I know that it's not legal in other areas. Some people will donate what they have hit w/ a car to area churches and food pantries (if it's a decent size deer).

[bridgit]

30. true, and penal institutions as well...

but i know of a guy that tried to pay off a state trouper with 2 front quarters off a road-kill-deer out from under a traffic citation & had hell to pay for bribery and 'passing' road kill :shrug: go figure

[xmas74]

40. What a dumbass!

[bridgit]

42. accentuating here "know a guy", know him to be in fact...

a backwoods, country tweaker more to the point :rofl: which is easy enough to reckon by the goofy little tale itself

[xmas74]

43. Only an idiot would bribe a hi-po!

I've worked w/ Hi-Po before and they are not the easiest guys to get along with. No way I'd try to bribe one!

[bridgit]

47. thanks for understanding, xmas74, my 1st husband was CHP...

we had no problems, but he was shot & killed in the line of duty, so i know for certain that they do from time to time have good reason be be wary

[xmas74]

51. Absolutely.

I dispatched one day when one of our MHP troopers was killed. He pulled someone over, other cars were rubbernecking and one hit his vehicle from behind. Crown Vic-exploded from behind. I sent my deputies as first responders to the scene but it was pretty obvious.
No matter what they do there is danger, whether purposeful or by accident. The only officers I was more afraid for were NARCS and SWAT.

[Omphaloskepsis]

36. We did that one time..

We hit a deer in a big truck and the deer was still alive. One of the guys I was with took a baseball bat to the head of the deer to put it out of it's misery. We put it in the truck and gave it to the local homeless shelter. They took it.

[xmas74]

41. And they were happy to have it.

All that had to be paid for by them was processing (and some places will process for free for shelters-they do around here). Think of how many people that deer fed. Why let it go to waste?

[Omphaloskepsis]

49. This place did it for free..

A lot of people ate.

[xmas74]

52. That is wonderful.

[XemaSab]

25. It's illegal to collect almost all birds

and that is where the law and I part ways. ;)

[MisterP]

12. yet they curiously keep electing rabidly anti-environment loonies in the

rural lands, while the degenerate urnbanites keep votin' blue

[XemaSab]

24. It's a fact

and it's a fact I don't understand.

But I often hear the bluest of the blue spouting environmentally ignorant nonsense too...

[MisterP]

26. heck, my Rep., Gary Miller, thinks sewage treatment is a Commie plot

but it's Orange County

[XemaSab]

27. I'm sorry

My rep thinks that declaring hwy 49 a "scenic route" will constitute a takings and violate people's private property rights.

[-..__...]

3. The author is an ignorant ass.

I don't hunt myself, nor have I ever had a desire to (I feel guilty setting mouse traps), but the PC hand-wringing this guy sobs about is just plain laughable.

[bridgit]

5. oh, well, then death to all who perpetuate typos...

too :rofl:

[-..__...]

8. Then whom would you converse with online?

:eyes:

[bridgit]

10. people...online...

:shrug: :rofl:

[-..__...]

19. And people online "perpetuate typos"...

think about it...

:smoke:

[bridgit]

28. it-to day...

:thumbsup:

[Redneck Socialist]

11. OK, that article is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

A few more minutes of my life wasted that I'll never get back.

Good for Samantha, sounds like she had a great time.

[bridgit]

32. bwahaha...

:rofl:

[Redneck Socialist]

35. LOL

I caught me a pike that was seven beer cans long!

[Fox Mulder]

14. I think it's wrong to take kids hunting.

To give them the idea to shoot something for the hell of it is just immoral.

The parents should be ashamed of themselves.

[bridgit]

29. in the pantheon of things children are able to learn i agree...

though to meet certain others in this thread 1/2 way & where it is we are made to fend for our own food by such means i agree; with the likes of they encouraging such things, i suppose, so long as the result is an homage to the 'living things' that the rend life unto us by way of their passing. it is only proper imo

[xmas74]

15. A friend's husband plans to take their children hunting

when they are older(rule in their house is that they have to pass the state sponsored hunter's safety course). He said that he wants them to know where their food comes from and to learn respect for all life. Seems strange when you think of that thought but that's the way he sees it (finds it more disrespectful to buy the meat prepackaged at the grocery store).
His attitude is that when they are 13 they will go hunting w/ him at least once. If they don't like killing their own food then they need to take up vegetarianism.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xmas74]

17. None of their meat comes from a factory farm.

They get all their meat either from his hunting or from his uncle, who is a small cattle farmer. And they consume what he kills. His hunting and their garden keep them fed most of the winter. And he's not an ignorant person-just a person who grew up very poor and learned how to keep his family fed at an early age.
You might need to get further info about the situation before you make a judgement. He's a good hearted person who does the best that he can to provide for his family. He never kills more than they can eat and he does not display his kills on the wall. It's not sport for him-it's a way for his family to eat. And I'd bet more than a few here on DU were raised the same way.

[flvegan]

21. All of their meat?

That's not what you said. Is it...

[xmas74]

39. They get their meat from hunting,

and a few local farmers (and, of course, lots of fishing in the spring and summer). None are factory farms.
And I did state that most of their meat comes from hunting.
Every year, they buy 2 hogs from a local farmer and a cow from his uncle. Any chicken that they use (which is rare) comes from a mutual friend that I introduced them to. They are now talking about buying some chicks to raise for both eggs and meat in the springtime.
Most of what they use is local. Either they have produced it themselves or know who produced it.
Sorry, I have more respect for people like that than for people who go to the store and blindly purchase w/o knowing where their food actually comes from.

[Redneck Socialist]

18. I'm honestly puzzled

Are you saying that if someone else kills a cow for you and turns it into burger, that's ok, but if you do it yourself it's not?

Help me out here. IMO anyone who eats meat should do the killing themselves.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flvegan]

23. Really, Dave?

I am anti-meat, yes. Do I look for threads to mention it? No, they present themselves.

Sort of like other posters that look for anti-Bush threads to mention their distaste for him, eh?

Don't call me out. You won't like what you get back.

[flvegan]

22. Why not?

Nobody kills a cow for me. Regardless...

I say "hunting" is killing for themselves. Killing a cow, isn't hunting. It's just killing.

[bridgit]

50. i'll be more than willing to help you out here...

are you trying to suggest that people who eat bread should grow & mill their own wheat; or they whom eat tortilla' should grow & stone grind their own corn, extract their own salt from the earth, or saltwater, refine our own gasoline...what :shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

57. Don't be obtuse.

I believe what he was saying, and I agree wholeheartedly with it, if you are anti-hunting because you think killing animals is wrong but still eat meat, cut up and cleaned and neatly wrapped in plastic for you by the butcher, you are a hypocrite. A lying, stinking, uncritically thinking hypocrite.

If you are anti-hunting and vegetarian, then cool. THAT is consistent.

[bridgit]

58. read here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4042035&mesg_id=4047922

[Rabrrrrrr]

61. I read it, but I don't quite get it

I'm not sure what your point in that one is - is that hunters can't be smart or educated? That America will be surpassed by the world because instead of learning technical skills, we're out hunting?

It seems that's what you are saying, but it's unclear, and I don't want to applaud OR reem you until I make due diligence to be sure of your point first.

Could you clarify?

[bridgit]

63. sure, on the surface of it, there are far too many...

simple hunting accidents by seasoned hunters to justify the inclusion of young, new found ones with far less experience.

hubby has several stories though i'll relate but one; he was in a canoe, up on the deschutes river with his brother in law, two sisters in law & one 3 week old baby; they had paddled upstream some 3mi, come about & were just lazing back down river on an otherwise fine, late summers day, to where they'd put in when several random rounds began flying across the bow of the canoe into the water near the bank where they were pushing off of logs & sandbars in the slow waters.

they yelled but no one heard them, so they came ashore, where they found a group of city dwellers from portland, or so they said, who'd come to the country with their rifles, on a 'hunting expedition', and were setting their sights (odd that they'd think to even do so) by way of a paper plate nailed to a tree in the deschutes national forest.

these city folk were beside themselves when they, finally, understood that behind the ridge they were shooting up against was the river itself. where, from time to time, others pursue other activities altogether different from whatever they had on their minds.

which is why i cited a more "all inclusive" approach up-thread somewhere, and not a mere effort to increase the levels of hunters young, or for that matter, old.

why not more young, auto mechanics? my dad taught me how to tear down an engine & rebuild it :shrug: when it all goes to thunder-dome mechanical engineers will be at a premium after all the bullets have been spent.

but i don't see little Samantha standing there with a torquewrench in her hand either.

[Rabrrrrrr]

66. Now I'm undertstanding you better

Yes, accidents do happen. And sadly, city folk are allowed to hunt. Can't tell you the horror stories of the assholes from Chicago who head up to Wisconsin for hunting season and don't have a goddamn clue what they're doing.

I don't know that I'm so keen on lowering the hunting age down to 7, either. I think Wisconsin still holds it at 14, or age 12 if you go through Hunter Training with the DNR. I'm not sure how that works now, though, since I think that Wisconsin requires people of ALL ages to go through Hunter's Safety once to get a license. I haven't lived there in years, but I've heard a couple relatives (who teach it) make allusions to teaching adults.

I do, however, disagree with you on your mantra that these hunting children are not learning anything else. Why would Samantha be standing there with a torquewrench in an article about hunting? How do you know that she, or others, isn't getting time learning other things?

I was brought up hunting and using guns from a very early age, and still somehow managed to get an engineering degree AND a master's, plus play an instrument, AND learned to drive a tractor, a little bit about engines (I'm not mechanical engineer, that's for sure, which is too bad, because I think it will, as you say, all go thunder-dome some day!), was in Boy Scouts, etc.

Just like you grew up in a hunting family and learned a lot of other stuff, so did I. Most people I know who grow up/are in hunting families are people who are also learning a lot of basic life skills, like car repair, how to use machines, home repair, etc.

I'm not sure why are stuck on the thought that it's either Samantha (or other) learning to hunt; or Samantha learning stuff that isn't hunting.

It can be a both/and.

[bridgit]

74. it's all good, you & i are not required to be simpatico...

we're not ballroom dancers or anything like that :patriot:

[bridgit]

31. i hear you, xmas74, i do...

your friends could as easily take their children to a dairy & teach them where the milk for their cookies comes from (got milk? :D ); it is a process filled with flies, mountains of cow shit & the occasional flat-bed truck filled with dead calves in the morning, that have been pulled, onto the ground, with a tractor & a chain if need be, when 'the cash cow' gets balled up able to bare

[xmas74]

62. And they have. They've been on farms their whole lives.

They want their children to know that everything they consume came from somewhere and that there is a price to be paid. They may sound like rednecks to some but they are some of the most liberal rednecks that you could ever meet.
They are meateaters and they feel that if their children are going to eat meat they should understand where it comes from. It also saves them quite a bit of money on groceries.
Myself, I don't like to hunt(I've been on hunting parties before). I don't like guns (friend's husband uses both guns and bow, depending on the season). But I can respect him for his views. He doesn't believe in trophy hunting. He says it makes him sick to his stomach to think of someone killing that beautiful creature and not utilizing it to its full extent(and he does refer to deer as beautiful creatures).

[bridgit]

64. you bet, as consumers we cannot take any of these 'things'...

we consume & consider commodities as having been simple-found. there's a great process standing behind these matters & awareness of it is too often in short supply.

[xmas74]

65. that's how I feel about it too.

We take too much for granted. My friend and her husband are looking into becoming more self-sufficient. Part of that is finding alternate ways to provide food for their family (through small farm plots, raising their own livestock, hunting and fishing). They are also looking into alternate energy and fuel sources. They have looked into both solar and wind power along w/ putting a biofuel engine in their truck (she is picking up a second job for a while to pay for the engine). Reduce, reuse, recycle is a way of life in their home.
People on this board may not agree w/ their hunting for food but it is all apart of their goal to become more self-sufficient.
BTW-compared to many gun owners they also believe in gun control. The guns that he owns are not kept in an area that the children can access (a small room in the basement that is kept padlocked at all times), they believe in classes for all gun owners, they believe in waiting periods and they believe that there are many types of firearms that should not be available to the public.

[shockra]

33. The NYT article.

Girls and Boys, Meet Nature. Bring Your Gun.

By PAM BELLUCK
Published: September 18, 2005

<snip>

The number of hunting licenses in the United States dropped to 14.7 million in 2003, from 16.4 million in 1983, according to the federal Fish and Wildlife Service. Hunting advocates cite many reasons for the decline.

"Some of it has to do with habitat loss, urban sprawl taking away places where people used to hunt," Mr. Wagner said. "And people just don't have time."

He said that getting children involved in hunting earlier would be one way to turn the trend around. More than 90 percent of hunters are 35 or older, and nearly 80 percent of current hunters started between ages 6 and 15, the shooting sports foundation says. Hunting advocates say children are much less likely to become adult hunters if they wait until they are 16.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/national/18hunting.html



Samantha Marley, 9, on a “dream hunt” for bear in Vermont this month, organized by Kevin Hoyt, left.

[bridgit]

37. that's the one, but here's part of what i do, or do not understand...

indulge me, shockra, if you would please, but; if the "number of hunting licenses in the United States dropped to 14.7 million in 2003, from 16.4 million in 1983, according to the federal Fish and Wildlife Service. Hunting advocates cite many reasons for the decline..."

which seems a simple enough statistic, easily recognizable & such, then what can the NRA possibly be talking about when they cite, with equal fervor, that america needs them, the NRA, so that "sportsmen", and now sports children, can have their 2nd amendment rights protected.

i am seeing the matter differently. Samantha up there in the pic, seems an otherwise, nice enough girl but i have to say...seeing her in her uniform she does little for the notion of civics, social studies & integration (outside of a flat, clinical reading) while she is instead smack't of 'little miss free republic ~ 2005', and soon to be member/contributor, political donor & republican direct mail recipient of the "16.4 million++" NRA lunatic fringe by way of shear pretense to childhood education imo

[Redneck Socialist]

45. Gotta disagree with you there

"...seeing her in her uniform she does little for the notion of civics, social studies & integration (outside of a flat, clinical reading) while she is instead smack't of 'little miss free republic ~ 2005', and soon to be member/contributor, political donor & republican direct mail recipient of the "16.4 million++" NRA lunatic fringe by way of shear pretense to childhood education imo"

Nope

That is precisely what we have to fight against. The NRA and GOP love the fact that you (and far too many others) believe just that. Many Democrats are hunter, many more are gun owners. The perception that gun ownership and voting Democratic is somehow incompatible has been, and continues to be a huge problem for our party.

If she does become a "member/contributor, political donor & republican direct mail recipient..." it will only be because we on the left have failed to dispel that perception that Democrats are somehow "anti-gun."

[bridgit]

48. then we do disagree, this world of ours is being surpassed...

before our eyes by another world all together in which the children of other nations are not so bent on pleasing the most base elements of their baseless mentors but rather seen excelling in fields such as: engineering, mathematics, medicine. i went hunting with my kentucky daddy, caught & gutted my own fish i later cooked, was a level good little barrel racer for that matter as well; but this endeavor is to my mind found lacking.

the rest of the world will soon be cashing in our chips as we & our children are seen as little smarter than to sit around bitching while we polish our NRA authorized shotguns...and that is imo of course. leaving you here with what i hope is a light moment & an invitation to come & speak with me sometime soon:

Last night they asked President Bush what he thought about Roe versus Wade.

He said: "I don't give a hoot how the people get out of New Orleans."

the difference contained within that inherent 'what is' sentiment, as all we progressives know it to be so, is not to be found in pushing "little miss free republic ~ 2005", out front with a fresh pocket of shells, rounds & ordnance. it is found within a proper view of the future, toward a resolution all inclusive to the betterment of humanity, my friend. make no mistake. mistakes have already been made.

[Redneck Socialist]

I don't see...

hunting as anyway incompatible with engineering, mathematics, or medicine. Is it not possible for this girl to be both a hunter and an engineer? Dismissing her as "little miss free republic" because she enjoys hunting only aids those forces that are not working toward the "betterment of humanity" as you put it. Indeed it makes it more likely that she (and others like her) will ultimately fulfill your stereotype of her.

As Democrats we need to be reaching out to hunter and gun owners not pushing them out into the arms of the republicans who are all to eager to embrace them.

[bridgit]

59. you've just stepped on your own point...

while missing mine entirely; you have already stated that dems are already hunters...reach out to what :shrug:

[Robeson]

34. Wow, that just warms my heart that some of our youth are being taught...

...the value of killing, more than the value of life. From article: "Almost anything you hunt is pretty fun."

What a wonderful lesson to teach our kids...:sarcasm:

[bridgit]

38. indeed, what darling children this future brings us...

:sarcasm:

[Orsino]

44. One of my childhood friends was killed...

...earlier this year, accidentally, by one of his (under twelve?) sons whom he'd taken hunting.

If you like meat, it makes sense to hunt, and to teach your children to hunt. But, God, the risks involved--how the hell do you live with the consequences of a fatal accident?

[Redneck Socialist]

46. At the risk of sounding harsh...

you live with those risks the same way you live with the risk of teaching your child to drive, or for that matter taking them in the car with you.

Just as you wouldn't toss a ten year old the car keys and say have at it, you would hand a ten year old a loaded gun and say have at it.

What happened to your friend is tragic, but you take a far greater risk driving to work each day than you do hunting.

[ContraBass Black]

53. How do you teach a child to use a gun?

Things can go wrong so quickly.

[bridgit]

54. one bullet at a time...

re-load, aim (presumably at something), squeeze trigger, clear breach, re-load, repeat; until proficiency (presumably at some point) ensues :thumbsup:

[ContraBass Black]

60. I don't think I have the nerves for such a thing.

I wouldn't have any qualms about teaching a teenager.

[Rabrrrrrr]

55. Good for Samantha! Sounds like she has a good eye and steady hands.

Hunting is great fun, and good for kids to do. I learned as a young child, and the majority of my cousins have learned as young kids.

It's important for kids to know how to use guns (assuming you're gonna have them in the house, anyway) as early as possible. And it's important for the children to know how to hunt and stalk game and live off the land.

God knows sometime soon, we might REALLY need those skills.

Anyone who thinks kids hunting is bad is a clueless ass. That's just my opinion, but I believe it.

All this hand-wringing because a "sweet nine year old (or seven year old) girl" has put up a turkey she killed instead of a crayon drawing is just juvenile asinine clueless shitspewing that reeks of ignorance of unjust contempt.

[bridgit]

56. bwahaha...

:rofl:

[Heidi]

67. This line from that article says a lot about Mr. Hoyt:

"He proudly tells of taking his two-month-old son deer hunting. He wore the kid in a backpack as he shot a deer. He explained that he was "stuck" home babysitting, but felt like hunting."

If you're looking after your own child, it's called "parenting," not "babysitting." :grr:

[Paladin]

68. Where Are The Childrens' Protective Services When You Need Them?

Anybody who would tote an infant along on a deer hunt ought to be prosecuted and lose custody of the child. What might he have done about the infant's game-spooking cries while in the field? There's something to contemplate.

And I used to hunt a great deal, but I lost my taste for it some time ago. The primary reason? Way too many assholes out in the wild with loaded guns. Judging from some of the posts on this tread, it looks like things haven't gotten any better......

[Heidi]

69. I agree with you completely.

I have absolutely nothing against hunters or hunting. America's gun problem isn't about hunters. It's about, exactly as you said, far too many (well, I'd call them ignorant rather than a$$holes) not only in the wild, but in domestic situations, with loaded guns.

And get this: every Swiss male is required to serve in the military and required to keep his military firearm at home. That's literally _millions_ of Swiss husbands, brothers, sons, uncles, grandfathers, etc., with loaded firearms at home. I find it interesting that Switzerland has far, far fewer gun deaths and injuries than does the US, where I grew up smack-dab in the middle of gun culture. Maybe this fact has something to do with Switzerland's mandatory gun safety courses before anyone gets a hunting license or a military weapon?

Rant completed. :grr:

[lakemonster11]

71. That wording always irritates me!

And it's almost always the fathers that use it (or that it's used about).

[Heidi]

73. Thank you, lakemonster11. I'm glad I'm not the

only one who noticed. Heck, I don't even _have_ kids, nor will I be having any, but Mr. Heidi would never even _dream_ of making such a statement in regard to our wonderful cat. We're _both_ obedient servants of our wonderful cat, just as BOTH parents are the loving caretakers (_not_ "babysitters") of their children. I swear, I'm mystified by the "babysitting" thing. :grr:

[flvegan]

75. How loud would that discharge be to a 2 month old?

Sounds sort of, oh, I don't know...irresponsible to me.

Oh, and the spin/frame is off. He didn't "take his son hunting" like it was some tradition. He stuffed the kid in a backback type sling, and went into the woods.

"Stuck" indeed. May he not procreate any further.

[TheMightyFavog]

70. As long as they eat what they kill, I have no problem with it.

Learning to hunt is a big part of growing up here in Wisconsin.

[supernova]

72. Same here

I have not on problem with subsistance hunters. And like WI, it's pretty normal here in rural NC, though less so than it used to be.

I don't however, like hunting simply for the sake of taking trophies. That's just cruel.