This is bound to attract flames, but it has to be said. Ban boxing.

[Archae]

It no longer is a "sport," too many have died or end up brain-damaged, and promoters like Don King are so corrupt they stink to high heaven, sucking their prize-fighters dry and getting filthy rich while the fighters end up brain-damaged, dead or in jail.

Boxer Dies Five Days After Fight

LAS VEGAS, Sept. 22, 2005

His death follows the July 2 death of Mexican boxer Martin Sanchez, who died a day after he was knocked out by Rustam Nugaev of Russia in a super lightweight fight in Las Vegas. That was the fifth death in the ring since 1994 in the city.

(AP) Boxer Leavander Johnson died Thursday from injuries sustained five days earlier in a lightweight title fight with Jesus Chavez.

The 35-year-old died at University Medical Center, where he had been hospitalized since being injured in the fight Saturday night at the MGM Grand hotel-casino.

A hospital spokeswoman said Johnson was pronounced dead at 4:23 p.m.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/22/sportsline/main880092.shtml

[Starbucks Anarchist]

1. I disagree.

Boxers know and assume the risks when they agree to fight.

However, I can see where you're coming from on this.

[henslee]

10. Too much cultural history and art to boxing. Too embedded in our culture.

Too engrained in "working man" culture to be messed with. Never happen. Unlike cockfighting, boxers know what they are getting into... However money from purses should be routinely set aside to pay for the long term care of boxers.

[H2O Man]

35. Good points.

Gerry Cooney is doing important work, advocating for boxers who retire and need help in getting on with their lives.

[henslee]

37. Gerry Cooney, haven't thought about him in a long time. I just

love when anybody "gives back"...I'm turning into such a softee as I get older.

[H2O Man]

40. Gerry is a good man.

The guy doing the most right now is Teddy Atlas. He doesn'ttalk about it as much as I wish he would. Heck of a good guy.

[bliss_eternal]

2. I never really understood the appeal of it

but at the same time, I don't know if I could or would say it should be banned. :shrug:

I don't like it, so I don't watch it--would never buy tickets to a match. Not at all sure why others would, but to each his own, I suppose.

Having said that, I understand why you feel it should be. Can't say that I completely disagree with you either.

I guess I have distanced myself from it because I don't understand it, and find it so personally repellant as a sport.

Hope no one flames you. It's obvious you feel this way because you are caring and compassionate and don't see why anyone would endorse watching people beat each other to a pulp.

[Archae]

3. Just look who before he died became the biggest advocate for banning it.

Howard Cossell.
He saw how corrupt it's become, and the damage it's done to boxers, like his friend Muhammed Ali.

[bliss_eternal]

8. Shows you how much attention I've paid to it all--

I had no idea that Cossell felt this way, prior to his death. I'm glad that he spoke against it--just sorry that it didn't help.

Unfortunately, while the promoters are still promising to make these kids stars, many will still pursue careers in this sport. All they see is the fame, money, a life better than what they are coming from.

Someone really should be more proactive about getting the word out about the dangers and long term effects.

I've always thought it was pretty much a given.
Guy gets beat about the head and face=long term brain damage and/or death. Duh! Not rocket science, right?

But apparently some are probably just in denial and think it won't be them--that they'll make their money and then walk away and create other money making endeavors ala George Foreman.

They need to be know, not everyone is as lucky to walk away unharmed...

[Clintmax]

4. I am torn on THIS one....

I've never liked boxing. Those guys get up there and beat each other up for the enjoyment of the crowd and someone always gets black and blue eyes, bloody, etc.

And now...too many Dudes are getting killed.

I think it probably SHOULD be banned because of how corrupt its become...but at the same time, I agree with the poster who said the boxers know and assume the risks.

This is tough one.

[Archae]

5. Exactly.

I hear this "they know and assume the risks."

Do they?
Some do, some don't, some don't care.

And occasionally I hear about investigations, a couple promoters get piddly fines, and go right on screwing their fighters.

And then there are the bastard children of boxing, "Ultimate Cage Matches," and "Bumfights."

[hedgehog]

30. No one really "knows and assumes" the risks.

Whether we're talking boxers, firemen, soldiers etc, each person deep in his/her heart believes that he/she is invunerable and that it's the other guy who's going to be unlucky.

[mcscajun]

6. I'm with you. I don't care how willing the participants are.

It's barbaric, it's unnecessary, it proves nothing.

It damages both the participants and the viewers, IMO.

[bliss_eternal]

7. Good point!

The world certainly wouldn't be any worse off, without making sport of people beating one another to a pulp.

It says a lot about our country and it's inhabitants that those matches are as popular as they are.

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. And ban movies ABOUT boxing

Sweet Jesus, please let it end!! LET IT END!!!!!

[hfojvt]

45. and ban that Simon and Garfunkel song

The Boxer

[trof]

11. I agree. Barbaric.

And when I was much younger I used to enjoy the "sport".

[LisaL]

12. Personally, I can't stand boxing. But there are other dangerous

sports, where people have been injured or killed. Are you going to propose to ban gymnastics and figure skating too? Cause there are some very seriously injured athletes there as well.
How about race car driving? I mean, if you going to ban something because it's dangerous, where does it stop?

[Archae]

13. It depends on the sport.

Car racing used to be horribly lethal, including dozens of spectators at a single event being maimed, burned and killed.

But it's been improved to the point where even in stock car racing, accidents are far less lethal, it's now the exception when anyone is hurt.

But in boxing, there's been practically NO improvements to it in centuries.

It used to be a "sport" to have dogs tear into chained-up bulls, fights to the death by dogs, roosters, and yes, even people.

And the boxing promoters have to be taken down.
Don King is the most corrupt person in sports.

[LisaL]

24. What depends on the sport?

Many sports involving physical activity are dangerous.
Not just boxers die while competing.

[Left Is Write]

14. I have never liked boxing. My son saw a commercial today...

for a PPV fight coming up.

"Why they hitting, Mommy? Hitting is not good."

[ForrestGump]

15. Weird

I am a martial artist and, though my preference is for traditional Chinese approaches, I appreciate the skill and moves of Western boxing -- it's all within the Chinese stuff, anyway, because there's rarely anything new under the sun and that gets particularly so with a culture as old, inclusive, and (in some ways) intact as pre-Mao China. Early on I got pretty beaten up (in sparring) by a classmate who had extensive boxing experience...that was before I really knew anything about the fine art of Western boxing or that I just hadn't delved far enough or wide enough into Chinese pugilism to learn its moves for myself. I sure respect the abilities of a good boxer, though.

But I can't be bothered watching it. I'll avoid it. You'd think that, with my strong interest in hand-to-hand combat, or pugilism, or boxing (albeit Chinese boxing), I'd at least watch to get further insight into combat or to just appreciate the moves on display. But, nope, there's something about it that just turns me all the way off. I have no idea what it is, other than perhaps an aversion ot the marketing and hype of it all. I don't watch kikcboxing, either -- sloppiest fighting you'll ever see, usually, at least these days -- and the so-called Mixed Martial Arts crapfests, like the UFC, turn me off because their participants are a disgrace to the world of martial arts because of the Americanized lack of principle or humility that they so loudly display (they may be very good fighters, but that's all they are: fighters, not worthy of the term 'martial artists').

I used to watch Ali, when I was a kid. That was something else entirely. He put ona show but he was also very, very, VERY good -- supremely graceful and smooth with power, attributes far ahead of his time in Western boxing and attributes central to most schools of Chinese martial arts (he was a friend of one of my kung fu teachers, too, and another held him up often as part of an ideal in motion towards which to strive). There've been good characters since (Sugar Ray, for one), but once Ali was done so was my interest in watching people beat each other up on TV for money. And if I'd kept watching, I'm sure that Mike Tyson and company would have stopped me soon enough...

[bliss_eternal]

18. Ali was SO different

back then, guys in sports seemed to give a damn about the world, and what was going on. He took an interest and did his part to try to make a difference to those that came after him.

These days, who have we got? Thankfully, there's Magic Johnson--who seemed more than a little appalled by the aftermath of Katrina and was vocal about it. But other than putting up their money, what of the 'athletes' of today--boxing or otherwise?

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread. Just wanted to add my .02...

[H2O Man]

34. One of The Champ's wives,

Belinda, had a black belt in martial arts. You may recall that in his later career, Ali would often drop a blow on the inside of the shoulder-neck area on guys like Frazier and Norton. My brother asked him about it one day in his training camp, before the 3rd Norton fight. Ali said Belinda taught it to him.

[Robeson]

16. I agree.

[TroubleMan]

17. It doesn't have to be said...that's bullshit...deaths are very rare

Boxing should not be banned anymore that football or basketball should be banned. People die in football and basketball, too. Are you going to ban car racing because somebody might get killed in a crash?

Boxing deaths are very rare now. Also, many states are making up rules that won't allow you to fight if you're a risk. Also, we need to get all of the leeches (like Don King) out of the sport.

You see one headline where a guy died and you want to ban the sport, even though you know very little about the sport apparently. That's a total kneejerk, freeper-like reaction, where you don't like something, so you want to take it away from everybody else.

What needs to be done is set up international rules that wouldn't allow you to box if you're at risk. Right now a few states have a formula that figures out how many rounds you've fought, how many punches you've taken, how many knockdowns you've had, age, and other things like that. These rules have already kept some boxers from fighting. These rules need to be internationally enforced

Boxing was in a horrible state in the 80's to mid-90's because of leeches like Don King. However, the boxers and trainers are getting smarter and the sport has been cleaning itself up.

Banning is a kneejerk reaction, and is a totally ridiculous idea.

[LisaL]

22. Exactly.

There are a lot of dangerous sports, even though they don't involve people hitting each other on the head on purpose. Should we ban sky diving? Some people don't make it on the ground in one piece.

[jane_pippin]

19. I don't understand boxing.

It's odd. On one level, I can see how people who know about it and its history could get into it and appreciate it, and I can respect that. But as an outsider, when I see the commercials on HBO I get uncomfortable because all I see for the most part is people of color beating the shit out of each other and I don't care for it on that level. It just seems too exploitative to me.

I admit, I don't know enough about it to make a fair call, but that's my two cents.

[tjdee]

20. Watching guys beat the crap out of each other? For fun? No thanks.

I don't think it should be banned, but I don't understand how watching someone *beat* someone else is leisure time. The height of hilarity, to me, is when someone gets arrested for fighting outside a boxing match or something like that. Fight outside the ring, you get arrested. Fight inside the ring, make millions! :shrug:

I also don't understand Halloween and how seeing tombstones and people with knives stuck out of them is morbid and grim usually--but on Halloween it's funny and fun!

[rockymountaindem]

21. Oh God, this is soooo wierd.

I went to this college team debate practice session today, and one of the hypothetical topics we discussed was a ban on boxing.

I've never even thought about it until now. Today, a twofer... wierd.

[Skittles]

23. it is disgusting and barbaric

absolutely gross

[Poiuyt]

25. People die in other sports too, but boxing is the only sport where the

object is to do physical harm to your opponent. A "home run" in boxing is when you cause your opponents brain to slam into the side of his/her skull with such force that he/she looses consciousness. You inflict pain in other sports, but that is not the goal of the sport.

I thought I heard today that 14 race car drivers (on average) die each year.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. I think pro football to a certain extent involves intentional harm

Some linebackers are looking for the quarterback to physically hurt him and knock him out of the game or even the season. Some linebackers and defensive linemen like to hit the quarterback if they can get away with it, even if they could avoid contact. The object is to hurt the quarterback causing him to rush his throws or even to leave the game.

And there's a strategy that involves beating up the defensive line with the offensive line during ball control. The idea is to inflict pain and fatigue to the point where you beat the opponent into submission.

Boxing involves the same concept in most cases, the wearing down of the opponent through accumulated punches.

[Poiuyt]

29. I agree that's what's happening. But the object of the game of football is

to score more points than the other team, not who inflicts the most pain. They use pain as a means to the end, not the end itself.

[H2O Man]

33. The object of boxing

is to hit without getting hit. It is a game of physical chess. There is, of course, a brutal side to it. People here are fairly accurate about that negative side. As I've noted on the discussions on the sports forum, I had a friend (Frank Barry) killed in the ring. And I have a brother who is dealing with the problems that those who absorbed far too many punches do. It's sad to see a guy who was once among the most intelligent people I've ever met, who now is unsure if I am our other brother, or if my father, who died a decade ago, wants us to work on the fence today.

I have mixed feelings. I think that it should be regulated by a federal commission. There are at least a dozen steps that I could list that would be huge steps in protecting fighters.

However, to be fair, I will admit that I discourage my 18-year old from fighting competitively. My normal brother and my good friend Rubin "Hurricane" Carter gave me hell -- and I mean hell -- when they found out I was training him, and that he wants to fight. My brother was here and watched him this summer. He said that the problem would be that my boy would easily win his first dozen amateur fights, and then would reach the higher level, where you get hurt even when you win, and when the sound of the crowd and the excitement of winning another tournament here and there would get into his blood.

I used to train with Mike Nixon, a Binghamton native that went to the west coast. Mike beat NJ's Mike Rossman at the Broome County Arena less than a year before Rossman won the world lightheavyweight title (my brother and I were on the undercard). He also was the last guy to exhibition Sugar Ray Robinson, when Ray was in his 50s.

My father said something to him in the gym one day about boxing being so crooked. And Mike paraphrased Floyd Paterson, " Boxing is like a women: sometimes she treats you well, and other times, she's cruel. But you can't help loving her." My dad said, "Son, you've been hit too much."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

36. I remember Mike Nixon

He was a pretty decent Middleweight with good skills, although I think his jaw might have been a little suspect. I saw several of his televised fights in SoCal. I vaguely recall him fighting a pretty tough fight he could be proud of in a losing effort against Sugar Ray Seales, the former Olympic Gold Medalist.

Mike Nixon reminds me of the unfortuante case of Jerry Quarry. I think they were close friends. Jerry Quarry died at 53 after suffering from boxing-induced dementia. It was pretty sad.

[H2O Man]

39. Mike had one problem

that really stood out, and that was training. I have some old scrapbooks from those days, and he had trainers drop him for his lack of discipline.

Jerry Quarry was a high profile example of a guy who took too many punches, and then got involved with a white powder that activated some of the hard-wiring in his head that made him feel on top of the world again. This is one of the growing problems with retired boxers. Alcohol does damage enough; cocaine seems to affect the brain far more severely in those with head injury from boxing. Jimmy Young, one of the Lopaz brothers, the list goes on and on. And they are only the famous ones.

I remember film of Jerry at about 50, hitting a heavy bag, and saying to the reporter who was interested in his sad case, "Hey, think you want any of that?" And a couple years later, Jerry looking lovingly at his mother, who was caring for him, saying, "I really love you, Mom. Wish I could remember your name."

Once I heard his younger brother, Mike, was having serious problems, too. Mike had been a good contender, until he fought Bob Foster in Foster's prime.

Teddy Atlas is doing a lot to help old fighters who are down on their luck. Teddy's dad was a doctor of some note, and their Atlas Foundation does a lot of good for old pugs.

[hfojvt]

48. I kinda soured on online chess

when I thought about how I was pestering my opponent. It was check, check, check on the king until I got something I wanted like a free piece. Jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, combo. I have played computers alot more than I have played people, and I feel more comfortable harrassing, frustrating, and demolishing a computer than I do another person. Sometimes that is the same thing I am doing in debate on this board. Not necessarily the best way to make friends.

I was playing a teenage thug in Othello once and during the game, he was moved to ask: "What would you do if I reached over the counter and hit you?" I said: "I dunno, probably fall on the floor and start bleeding."

"I will have you checkmated next move."
"You're a very annoying chess player, Mr. Spock, did you know that?"
"Annoyance? Ah yes, one of your earth emotions."
Kirk makes a winning move.
"Are you sure you don't know what annoyance is?"

[hedgehog]

31. I can't watch football anymore becaue even if everyone walks away

the actual play is like watching a demolition derby with people instead of cars.

[H2O Man]

26. Unlike most other sports,

boxing has no "season." Hence, there are both amateur and professional boxing matches every day of the year, all around the world. Yet more kids die playing football every year, and more men die playing golf.

Boxing could be improved with a federal commission. The promoters and managers are usually corrupt, and frequently are parasites. A commission can keep people who are at increased risk of serious injury from fighting.

Promoter Don King knew that Muhammad Ali's brain scans indicated abnormalities, but he still promoted his last two fights (Larry Holmes and Trevor Berbick). And clearly, Ali's ring experiences contributed to his Parkinson's syndrome. However, both his father and Howard Cosell also had Parkinson's syndrom, though neither boxed.

I boxed over 300 fights. I do not regret having boxed. I learned a lot about life. Had a lot of fun. Was in a few articles in boxing magazines as a young man. Gained confidence in myself.

I also trained a lot of boxers, amateur and professional. I found boxers to be the most gentle, insightful, kind and decent people -- as a group -- that I've ever met.

And, to be honest, I have seen people injured in the ring. It's a tough way to make a living. However, in our society, it is the only chance that many young men have to get out of poverty. More, for many kids in trouble with the law, it offers a way out.

My brothers and I ran a boxing club. At one point, we had 74 kids participating. The vast majority of them had experienced trouble at home, in school, and/or in the community; however, when boxing, not one had any serious troubles. As a now retired psychiatric social worker, I can say that there isn't a program going that can match those results.

Regulate the sport. Fix it. But the idea of "outlawing" it would only push it underground, where the parasites would mistreat fighters worse than they do now.

[fleabert]

27. I agree, but it would remove the glee I get out of the fact that my ex

is now an amatuer boxer, and lost his last bout...someone needs to pound him on a regular basis.

[Squatch]

32. I love boxing.

Injury and death are two of the risks associated with this sport, as with a ton of other sports.

[JohnnyBoots]

38. What about mixed martial arts cage fighting, is that still OK, I hope?

[dr.zoidberg]

41. It's fine.

Things like the UFC and PRIDE are very well run. This is because both groups know that if they have one screw up, then they will be banned in the US.

[RedCloud]

42. Who killed Davey Moore?

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not I," says the referee,
"Don't point your finger at me.
I could've stopped it in the eighth
An' maybe kept him from his fate,
But the crowd would've booed, I'm sure,
At not gettin' their money's worth.
It's too bad he had to go,
But there was a pressure on me too, you know.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not us," says the angry crowd,
Whose screams filled the arena loud.
"It's too bad he died that night
But we just like to see a fight.
We didn't mean for him t' meet his death,
We just meant to see some sweat,
There ain't nothing wrong in that.
It wasn't us that made him fall.
No, you can't blame us at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says his manager,
Puffing on a big cigar.
"It's hard to say, it's hard to tell,
I always thought that he was well.
It's too bad for his wife an' kids he's dead,
But if he was sick, he should've said.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?


"Not me," says the gambling man,
With his ticket stub still in his hand.
"It wasn't me that knocked him down,
My hands never touched him none.
I didn't commit no ugly sin,
Anyway, I put money on him to win.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the boxing writer,
Pounding print on his old typewriter,
Sayin', "Boxing ain't to blame,
There's just as much danger in a football game."
Sayin', "Fist fighting is here to stay,
It's just the old American way.
It wasn't me that made him fall.
No, you can't blame me at all."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

"Not me," says the man whose fists
Laid him low in a cloud of mist,
Who came here from Cuba's door
Where pro* boxing ain't allowed no more.
"I hit him, yes, it's true,
But that's what I am paid to do.
Don't say 'murder,' don't say 'kill.'
It was destiny, it was God's will."

Who killed Davey Moore,
Why an' what's the reason for?

(I added pro in front of boxing as Mr. Zimmerman almost got it right.)

[H2O Man]

44. Davey Moore

died because his head hit the lower strand of rope on the ring, as he went down. His head whiplashed, and the force of hitting the ring apron killed him.

This is not uncommon. In fact, when we think of deaths in boxing, Davey Moore, LaVern Roach, Sugar Ramos, and Duk Koo-Kim all died this way. Cases like Bennie "Kid" Paret are actually less common.

This could be avoided by simply moving the bottom strand out by 3 to 4 inches: it would keep the fighters from being knocked out of the ring, and increase safety.

Mr. Zimmerman, in the mid 1980s, tried his hand at "boxing." After a Madison Square Garden concert, he invited Rubin Carter to his hotel suite overlooking Central Park. "When Carter arrived, (Dylan) pulled out two pairs of boxing gloves that Carter had given him. Dylan wanted to shadowbox (sic), so they put the gloves on and bobbed and weaved like two kids on a playground. When Carter unleashed a left-right combination, Dylan let out a scream -- then realized the gloves never touched him. (Hurricane; James Hirsch; pg 292) Clearly, some people should not box.

[MissMillie]

43. the object of this "sport"

is not to score a goal (sink a ball into a basket, put a puck into the net, cross the goal line w/ the football, finish the race first...) but...

to cause physical injury to your opponent.



That is the definition of violence, isn't it?

[flvegan]

46. Boxing? Ban that idiotic Ultimate Fighting shit, first.

To each his/her own, I don't really believe in "banning" those bloodsports of willing participants. I just don't get the joy in watching it.

[Ron Mexico]

47. Sure. Then football. Then contact sports of all kinds. Then sex and booze.

I didn't choose boxing as a career, but if I did I wouldn't need or WANT the government to protect me. This sort of thinking is where terms like "Nanny State" come from. Remember the movie "Demolition Man?" I NEVER want to live in such a pussified culture.

Not safe? Ban baseball, football, soccer, trap, skeet, pool (results in bar fights), darts, card games, video games, and so on. Booze and sex have to go, too. Don't even get me started on NASCAR and Indy car racing.

The professional ranks are corrupt? What big sport isn't? Ban baseball. Ban hockey. Ban chess. If Sudoku ever becomes as big here as it is in Japan, ban that, too!

I'm trying to be polite, but even as someone who isn't much of a boxing fan I find myself enraged by this post. If you don't like it, don't watch. If you think it's unsafe, don't box.

Sheesh.

[Taverner]

49. I don't watch boxing but...

You can't ban everything you don't like - that's what fundies do.

Never legislate an opinion...