I have a question for people of faith-

[MarsThe Cat]

Although i am an atheist, i can fully admit that if a god were to make it's presence known in some un-ambiguous fashion to all people on the planet, i'd be more than happy to acknowledge it's existence.

So-
for those of you who ARE believers in some type of god or supreme being- what kind of proof would it take for you to become an atheist and deny the existence of such a being?

[youthere]

1. That is a really interesting question...

and I'm not sure what the answer would be. It stands to reason that if you could become a believer by "God" making him/her/itself KNOWN then a believer would become an unbeliever (is that a word?) by "God" making him/her/itself UNKNOWN-but that isn't really possible is it?

For a fundamentalist it would simply take getting them to acknowledge and accept the fallacies and innaccuracies in the bible-because for a fundamentalist God=The Word. God does not exist without "the truth" (or the inerrancy) of the bible. Everything is black and white, so if you disassemble the bible you've disassembled their "faith". It becomes a little trickier when you deal with liberal or progressive Christians who do not subscribe to biblical inerrancy.

Good question!

[MissMillie]

2. faith is unremarkable

when proof is available.

(Actually, by definition, it's not even "faith")



Lots of things happen in the world for which there is no immediate explanation. I see no harm in people trying to find one for themselves, as long as they remember that it only answers their own curiosity.

[hfojvt]

13. I sorta go the other way

To me, everything is faith. There is no such thing as "knowledge." Sitting here I can see that my back door is locked. Is that something I know? No, it is simply my faith in reality and in my vision. I have faith that what I experience is real, and not a drug or demon (or computer - same difference) induced hallucination. I also have faith that my eyesight is still, or has ever, worked and observes actual aspects of reality.

True, there may be a huge mountain of evidence to back up all of those postulates, but a key question is 'where is the threshold where evidence becomes 'proof'? Almost everything we believe can be deconstructed and is often accepted with very little evidence.

[MarsThe Cat]

22. the problem is- it never ends there.

evangelists of all faiths and flavours are always on the make for more and more people to join their particular team, with the ultimate goal of getting everyone to play by their particular interpretation of the rules.

[WCGreen]

53. How did I miss that the first time through this thread.......

Remarkably succinct

[MissMillie]

67. Yeah, once in a while

I get lucky and say something that works.

[GOPFighter]

122. I'll bet it happens more often than that

I agree with WCGreen. That was very succinct.

[xmas74]

3. I don't know.

It's just something I feel. I feel like there are miracles are around me every day if I take the time to look at them.
It's so hard to explain-I'm a Christian yet I don't believe most of the stories in the Bible. It would take something big-something I cannot fathom-to make me a nonbeliever, yet I can still understand why many do not believe.

[WCGreen]

17. I agree with you ....

After my skirting death last summer, I think there is some kind of mystic purpose to the universe......

The stuff in the old testament to me, is nothing more than Mediterranean mythology on the march...

But the new testament, well if you look at the actual teachings of Christ and take out the political crap added over the years, it is really good stuff....

A good blueprint on which to base a good, social life....

[MarsThe Cat]

23. there are older blueprints that are just as valid-

a lot of philosophers prior to the biblical christ said many of the same things, Confucius, the buddha, etc...and most of it distills down to the same 'golden rule'- do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[WCGreen]

34. Yes but Jesus is the fulcrum for the Western World....

I firmly believe, philosophically thinking, that Jesus was a flash point in time, that from him the ideas of free market capitalism and democracy as we know it took root.....

Separation of church and the state, the elevation of all humanity to a single level, the spiritual guidepost for living a good life in a social setting....

A lot of it came before....

And a lot came after....

I think Jesus is where the Western tradition, as we know it today, started to flourish.....

Isn't it curious that the same basic trend to humanize people, make all people worth while, is denigrated by the "church" as evil and blashpamous.....

[MarsThe Cat]

38. replace "Jesus" with "Constantine", and you'd be more on the mark.

without constantine, jesus would be an insignificant footnote along with the leaders/saviours of the other apocalyptic jewish sects of the time.

[WCGreen]

39. I think Constantine was the first big push on that fulcrum...

But Jesus was the turning point...

Constantine would have grabbed on to any ascending religion if he felt it would rid him of competition .......

[MarsThe Cat]

42. actually, constantine was shopping for the best deal in the after-life...

and the christians had the best pitch.

[WCGreen]

45. I was under the impression that Constantine

used the vision of a cross to get the troops behind him to take out the co emperor......

He didn't convert, so they say, until his death bed.....

[MarsThe Cat]

46. Constanitne was a religionaholic-

he went thru a lot of them, and used them to his own ends, but immortality was ultimately what he had in mind.

[JVS]

96. That's surprising.

As a Christian, I'd have to say that our after-life deal is not so much fund as others of which I've heard.

[xmas74]

52. I call myself a Christian because I try to follow the

basic teachings of Christ. As a philospher and a teacher he was-you can't begin to explain. Do I think he was the Messiah? I don't know. Do I think he was the son of God? Yes, in the same way that we are all supposed to be the sons and daughters of a divine entity(whether it be an actual person, a feeling or whatever it is). But I also read the teachings of other faiths and apply them when I feel that they are correct and fit my beliefs.
I just feel that there is something out there, whatever it might be. I can't describe it. I have faith that there is something more.

[MarsThe Cat]

55. the basic teachings of christ-

as i stated somewhere earlier in this thread, can pretty much be distilled down to the 'golden rule', roughly stated- do unto others as you would have them do unto you- and love thy neighbor as thyself.

but christ wasn't by a long shot the first one to suggest it- i try to be good person as much as possible- and if there were a biblical-type god, i would expect my life to be judged on my actions, not whether i believed the whole ancient spiel about who begat who.

[xmas74]

56. no he wasn't the first

but he was able to get the message further across. And that is how I believe-that you are judged by actions instead of what someone tells you. I think that all who live by the basic teachings (Golden Rule) will be awarded accordingly in the afterlife, no matter what "faith" you practice.
I have always believed that there is no one "perfect" faith-just the faith that best suits you. It's more about how you follow the most basic teachings than about who is more faithful (as the fundies would say it).

[kick-ass-bob]

4. I believe "God" is more of a force than a being,

something that interconnects everyone, but does not have "power" on its own.

So it wouldn't take anything for me to accept there is no supreme being, and I am pretty spiritual.

[xmas74]

5. That is my problem.

I am more spiritual than anything else and I go back and forth on what God really is. So a question like this is especially hard for me to answer.

[kick-ass-bob]

7. you should try a metaphysical interpretation of the Bible.

it might help you figure out what you believe.

[xmas74]

8. Thank you.

I constantly go back and forth w/ my belief system. I am constantly reinventing my beliefs and reassessing them yet again. It doesn't go over very well since I am in a family of fundamentalists and evangelicals.

[kick-ass-bob]

9. Well, a metaphysical interpretation won't ingratiate you to them either.

We are going to hell, according to my M-I-L. I say that's OK, because it doesn't really exist.
:D

[xmas74]

11. I have issues w/ Hell in general too.

I don't understand why someone who cares for us so much would create a place like that in the first place. I have always believed (since I was a small child) that we created it ourselves.
As you can tell, I was never well liked.

[MarsThe Cat]

26. the concept of hell is what ultimately "un-sold" me as well-

i was raised to be evangelical lutheran, until i decided that i couldn't worship a supposedly loving creator who was willing to cast us into 'the firey pit' for eternity, for even the smallest of infractions. as i grew more and more skeptical, the truth became more and more obvious.

[youthere]

48. That's where I'm at right now...

We play God as this loving "father figure" who will without hesitation damn us to burn in hell for all eternity...someone call DHS.

[xmas74]

58. I have never believed that God created a Hell.

I always saw it as something that man created as a way to explain why bad things happen to others or as a way to keep others in line.

[MarsThe Cat]

66. and if man created hell to explain bad things or keep people "in line"...

doesn't it pretty much follow that man also created god -in his own image, to explain the good, and also again- to keep people in line...?

[xmas74]

124. Yes and no.

We'll never know until it's too late either way.

[indigo32]

89. Good to know I'm not the only one

the concept of an eternal Hell created by something I'm supposed to worship and revere always bothered me. I don't worship or revere anymore.

[atomic-fly]

101. Joseph Campbell states: Hell is being seperated from god.

I think he was referring to the fall of Lucifer (his top angel)

[no name no slogan]

25. To paraphrase Mark Twain: "Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company"

nt

[hfojvt]

15. see, there is almost a trinity in this question

"People of faith" typically believe 3 things, not just one.

1. There is a higher power
2. The higher power is a conscious entity with a personality and a will.
3. This higher power cares for us deeply.

Point 3 seems to me the trickiest. When you see things like Katrina and tsunamis and earthquakes and tornados and blizzards, you have to wonder what the fugging weather would be like if God hated us. Of course, many people have believed that those bad things only happen because we have done something to anger God. Certainly God-pimps will spread this message because you have angered God by not giving enough of your money to the ministry of hfojvt!!!! Get your checkbook out, you greedy sinners!!!! REPENT!!
Er..um...now where was I? Oh yeah, page 2.
It also seems like a cop-out on #3 when we are blamed for things like war, the holocaust and the BFEE. God passes the buck on that one to the human race, but clearly a caring creator acting in a Benthian manner (the greatest good for the greatest number) could do an enormous amount of good with lightning bolts or myocardial infarctions aimed at certain people at certain times, like Hitler in 1932 or Dahmer on a smaller scale circa 1983 or any person engaging in or abetting the forces of evil, even a hate-filled, blasphemous writer could be -

[no name no slogan]

6. A signed note from God saying "I do not exist"

[JVS]

97. Wouldn't that be ambiguous evidence?

[Beer Snob-50]

10. Because my belief in the existance of a god is based on faith,

I think the only proof I could exist, is going to a funeral and the dead person jumps up out of the casket and tells me that heaven/God does not exist.

[renate]

12. this might sound sarcastic but ISN'T meant to be

Do you believe in love, or friendship, or happiness (or hatred, animosity, or sorrow, for that matter)?

Those aren't tangible either. But when someone looks into your eyes and says, romantically or affectionately or joyfully, "I love you," and even more so when you're the one saying it, you know for sure that there's such a thing as love.

Of course, I don't have proof of that. :)

[MarsThe Cat]

21. have love friendship or happiness ever been touted as omnipotent creators?

no.
they are emotions, not supreme beings.
and actually, in my thinking, that's all "god" really is too- an emotion, a state of mind- our own consciences at work and keeping our primal urges in check.
but when we die, we die. there is no afterlife or immortal soul, nor anyone/anything to answer to for the actions we take in life.

[renate]

27. well, no

but my point--not clearly made--was that many of us routinely believe in the reality of a few things, including things of a spiritual nature like love, without physical proof of their existence.

(FWIW, my own feeling, though different from yours in some ways, is similar to yours in that I also believe God is an emotion--an agape kind of love and/or universal consciousness, not some dude in the sky passing judgement.)

[MarsThe Cat]

40. i don't believe in a 'universal conciousness'-

in my thinking, the concept of 'god' is limited to each individual's own mind & conscience- the personal moral gatekeeper we have each developed to control our actions- but there is nothing immortal or interconnecting about it.

[billyskank]

14. Well, there's that "proof of a negative" thing again

Just as there was no way that we could prove Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction (short of invading and occupying Iraq), how can we prove the non-existence of God?

In fact the more I think about it, the more I find this question contemptible. You are not asking a positive question about my faith; instead you ask what it would take to make me decide my faith was misplaced. For that reason I refuse to answer it.

[anarch]

19. good answer

Although on further reflection, to the Original Post, I might have said:

"OK, it will take payment of $25,000.00 in cash for me to deny the existence of a supreme being." Of course, they'd have to take it on faith that I meant it....

;)

[MarsThe Cat]

28. suppose this were to happen-

an archaeological dig uncovers a large 50,000 year-old spacecraft in pristine condition, and containing information that proves incontrovertibly humans came from a collection of planets in a solar system with a dying sun who were able to build ships and spread their species to other planets/solar systems throughout this and other galaxies, and making no mention whatsoever of a god or supreme being.

would something like that cause you to maybe question your faith even a little bit?

[billyskank]

30. Given that I believe

human beings and other creatures exist on innumerable other planets in innumerable universes, no, that wouldn't shake my faith one iota.

Perhaps you are assuming we are all taking our information from the Bible? I am not.

[MarsThe Cat]

35. Do you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, supreme being-

that created and "watches over"(in some sense or another) the life that exists on innumerable planets in innumerable universes; and/or an immortal human soul?

or is 'god' more or less self-contained in the conscience of each individual?

just trying to grok from whence you come.

[billyskank]

36. I believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent supreme person

who (through His own expansion) creates, maintains and destroys all the material universes and who (through His further expansion) lives in the heart of every single living being, whether human, dog, tree, Republican, whatever. In this way I believe Him to be watching over everything.

He has many names, and the primary one I know for Him is Krishna. This should help you understand where I am coming from. When I talk about His expansion, I am talking about Vishnu. Vishnu and Krishna are the same person, but we call Him Vishnu when He is performing activities related to the creation, maintenance and destruction of material universes.

However, I believe the material universes are actually an insignificant part of His potency, which is where I differ from both those of an Abrahamic faith and also atheists, who all tend to think that this material universe and its activities are somehow significant. I think ultimately they are not. Krishna has His own activities and pastimes which are purely spiritual and have nothing to do with the material world, and that is what I wish to attain.

Now I am going to bed, so I cannot converse further. Good night.

[MarsThe Cat]

44. alrighty then...

attain away.

and you're positive that it's a male, because...why?

[billyskank]

63. God is male and female

Since both originate from Him, so they must both exist in Him. Nevertheless we refer to Him as He because He is purusha, the person, as opposed to His potency/energy/power, which is prakriti or nature. Purusha is the enjoyer and prakriti is meant to be enjoyed.

[Gregorian]

32. I'd still have to ask where the other galaxies came from.

Even people who believe that the bible contains facts, must eventually face the six year old question of "where did God come from".

My only answer to all of this is- We'll find out.


I'm content to not know. But I am not content to ignore. I see.

[billyskank]

37. Whether theist or atheist

you will have to accept that something exists without a cause. I call it God. You can call it whatever you like.

[MarsThe Cat]

43. why?

why does anyone have to accept that something exists without a cause?

i sure don't.

[billyskank]

64. Here's why

Either there is a first cause, or there isn't. If there is a first cause then it must necessarily be itself causeless. If there isn't a first cause, then you have an endless chain of causes and effects stretching away into infinity. An infinite thing is itself a thing without a cause. So either way you have to accept something existing with nothing to cause it.

[MarsThe Cat]

69. and when you say "something"...

are you referring to something spiritual- a consciousness that purposely set things in motion, or the physical something- as in the matter present at the 'big bang' that became the universe...?

personally, i do not profess to know where the physical matter came from- that's something that is pretty much unknowable- and anyone's guess is as good as another...either way, where the matter originated doesn't have any impact on my life- i'm here, i'm living and then i'll die and cease to exist.
but- since time is infinite, maybe i'll get another ride somewhere sometime down the line- even if it's a billion big bangs from now, and in a galaxy far far away.

as to the cause of it all- that too is unknowable- personally, I don't see a spiritual force behind it all...to me it's just as likely that we're part of a "C-" project that some high school student in a super-advanced civilization/species made for science fair, as it is that any 'god' willed us into existence. NOBODY knows, nobody has known, and most likely- NOBODY alive now ever will know.

but what i do know is this- it's pretty silly to worship, worry about, or pay heed to any 'creator' that chooses to remain anonymous.

[billyskank]

76. I've had enough of you

Your purpose is simply to try to defeat anyone who answers your questions. Forget it.

[MarsThe Cat]

83. you are mistaken there-

where/how was i trying to 'defeat' you...?

I asked you to clarify what you meant by "something"- whether it was a physical or spiritual something...while at the same time informing you as to my stance on either.

it's odd that you would look at an exchange of ideas as a contest.

[Taverner]

16. Well my beleif in God is that of a "Prime Mover"

Meaning that he or she set the wheels of Cosmic Evolution into place, and does not interfere beyond that.

So I guess steady-state would disprove God - but all science seems to be pointing towards a positively curved universe...

[anarch]

18. there is no unambiguous proof that ANYTHING exists

and no logical way to prove that some particular thing or person does NOT exist. It's an impossibility.

[MarsThe Cat]

31. is it already harvest time in humboldt again?

:hippie:
far out, man...

[anarch]

33. yes, I think it is, actually...

And there's your proof, to paraphrase Ben Franklin, that God exists, and that he loves us and wants us to be happy! ;)

[bridgit]

20. to my mind it would be 'the absence of mind itself'...

too many get caught up hoping 'god' looks like kenny rogers on a good day patting the heads of quizzical little children, or: alanis morissette, but i don't care, i'm not prejudice that way; i'll take a pat on the head from a sincere atheist for that matter, so long as it is...sincere.

if existence is someday seen, or recognized, as an eminent orb, or (fill in the shape; the whatever), dispensing what we then sense to be existence by way of yet further un-disclosed, or immediately understood, radiant activity of some kind we, yet again, will not understand for eons of time still yet again and further, then as a 'believer' my inclination will be to say,

"well, jeepers, i don't know what it is but there it is."

my sense is, however, that i would be rather disinclined to report that it is not there :patriot:

ps, welcome to du, MarsThe Cat :kick:

[wildhorses]

24. the fact that you asked

this question shows me that you have doubt in your own belief system...to question and doubt is human. I can not think of anything that would prove to me that "God/afterlife/supreme being" does not exist, if only in my mind...sorta like "I think therefore I am" in other words you are what you think. So if you think you are an atheist then you are an atheist....

[MarsThe Cat]

29. i have no doubts about my belief system-

but i'm willing to admit that whatever i or anyone "believes" can be changed by actualities.

[wildhorses]

47. ok

believe=thinking...so keep on doing both
and one day IT will come to you
you will have forgotten me and that is okay

[More Than A Feeling]

41. Already been an atheist, it'd be really hard to convince me to go back

The kind of proof that would convince me could not come until after I was dead. It would come in the form of some condition after death other than the one that I think will happen (or some other condition that also involved God).

If that should happen, I am fully prepared to admit I was wrong.;-)

On edit: Great question, though :thumbsup:

[Midlodemocrat]

49. The only thing that could convince me to become an atheist

would happen after my death, so that makes it irrelevant. When I die, if there is no afterlife and I don't see my parents and my SIL again, that is what would do it for me.

Right now, as a living, breathing person, it is much too painful for me to even think the above is a possibility. Our family experienced a lot of loss pretty quickly and sometimes the thought of seeing my loved ones again is the only thing that gets me through the day.

[Dervill Crow]

110. Amen, right on, and so mote it be.

I cannot accept that the people I have known and loved who have gone before are just gone. If it turns out that I am wrong . . . well, it's made my time here a lot less grim, and by the time I figure out it was all a farce it won't matter.

I'm going to enjoy my time here as much as possible, though, just in case.

[rug]

50. Complete and utter stillness.

[WCGreen]

51. The main point is, I don't need the threat of eternal damnation

to lead the good life....

What I need is the compassion that makes me human, the ability to rise from my animal origin and treat those around me with respect and dignity....

And if you need a threat to spark that compassion, so be it....

But I think it is there, inside us all....

And those that do harm to people for their own good, lack compassion and the spark that sets us apart from the animals.....

[MarsThe Cat]

54. "the spark that sets us apart from the animals....."

and what do you consider that 'spark' to be?
as an owner of both cats and dogs, i can tell you for certain that animals are capable of just as much compassion as humans, and moreso than many. although we don't know what they may be thinking- when you look in their eyes, and watch their expressions and mannerisms, you can tell that they are thinking creatures. I suppose i'm mostly referring to cats/dogs, since that's where my experience mostly is- but IMHO, animals have just as much of a soul or 'life-force' as you or i- and they're just as mortal as we are as well.

[AlienGirl]

59. I believe that "spark" interpenetrates all beings

When Gideon tells me, "I throw!" and then goes and throws something, I see the spark of Mind at work. He has decided on an action, informed me of his intent, and then carried out the action. When he labels a picture of himself or his reflection in the mirror, I can see that he is aware of himself as a distinct entity (and that he knows what he looks like). When he calls a kid over to him when we're out by saying, "Hi kid!" and allows them to touch him, I see his enjoyment of socializing with others. (He likes kids more than adult strangers; I think he finds them more approachable.)

That Gideon does all of this with a brain the size of a small walnut and with dramatically different brain neurology is something that reinforces my belief that Mind transcends the physical.

Tucker

[MarsThe Cat]

70. where you see a spark, i see normal cognitive development...

and everything you say about Gideon could be just as true if Gideon were a dog.

[WCGreen]

106. The spark that sets above animals is the spark

above instinct...

Most animal behavior is centered around instinct...

They do not pass learned knowledge on to the next generation....

They do not group and form higher social organizations....

All but the primates react......

Humans have the ability, through a collective knowledge, the ability to control their environment....

that's it....

If you think that animals have compassion, so be it....

But I feel that you are personifying an animal trait towards self preservation.....

They depend on us therefor they are loyal to us....

[MarsThe Cat]

112. animals can indeed show compassion-

I have a chronic illness that can cause me bouts of great pain- i can tell by their expressions and actions that my animals know when i'm not doing well...there are documented cases of dolphins helping humans in distress- and in brookfield zoo in chicago, a small child fell into a gorilla display, and one of the female apes coddled the child until the keepers could get to it.

as far as "controlling their environment"- termites in africa and australia build huge mounds that stay cool even in the hot sun.

again, i don't see a "spark" to humans, so much as a little more cognitive development and an opposable thumb.

[WCGreen]

113. Good for you then.....

[AlienGirl]

117. Have you read about Alex Pepperberg?

When you say "all but the primates react," you are ignoring a lot of research into the cognitive abilities, social organization, and inter-generationally passed cultures of non-primates that has been done in the past few decades.

Alex is learning to read...

Tucker

[bridgit]

57. dude, there's no convincing 'atheists', it's just one big biege...

two left feet pathway to nowhere, stubbing our toes for no perceptible reason whatsoever, endless nothingness a world utterly void of sing-song melodies & bright moments absent madeline murray o'hare

[WCGreen]

108. You are right.....

Maybe if they faced deat, as I have, they might look at things differently...

A christian once acled me how could you question the existance of god....

What if you died and found out you were wrong....

I replied, I live my life as best I can, by always looking to see what my actions will bring to others.....

And if there is a god, that god would understand my compassion and defference to other humans and the world around me if, as you describe him, cause they always refer to the God as him, that god exists, I will be welcomed into the after life with open arms.......

[GOPFighter]

126. Gee, Bridget

No wonder you're not an atheist. You've been misled. Too bad.

Try spending a day with one of us sometime. Observe that we sing, we smile, we laugh, we actually have morals (superior to many believers in my experience), we love, we cry, we stub our toes and blame it on no one. But what you will quickly note is our sense of freedom. We are free to determine right and wrong based on what we believe is best for society, our neighbors, our loved ones, not what is written down in a book or taught by someone purporting to speak for god.

You are obviously happy as a believer, I don't begrudge your happiness, but you are wrong to assume that without a belief in God, life is devoid of sing-song melodies & bright moments.

:patriot:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. As it has been said, "Tell me which God you don't believe in.

Maybe I don't believe in that God either."

I believe that the Force behind the Universe is too complex and at the same time too intimate to be fully understood by the human mind. I have felt the presence of that Force at various times in my life and have experienced what the Celts call "thin places" that manifest a spiritual power.

My culture and upbringing make me a liberal Christian. This life brings me community, chances for service and self-expression, and a venue to study the deeper questions of life.

However, I respect other paths that are not oppressive or harmful to individuals or society. When in Japan, I have joined my host family in Shinto New Year's Prayers and meditated in front of Buddha statues. I have attended Jewish weddings and funerals.

The reasons why I believe are deep and personal. I've been through all the usual crises of faith, and it's hard for me to think of anything that would utterly shatter my faith.

The universe isn't going my way? Well, why should it go my way instead of someone else's?

A poster above mentioned dying and finding that there's nothing after death. If that were to happen, I wouldn't know it, would I?

[MarsThe Cat]

73. you see the presence of a Force, i see typical brain chemistry at work-

endorphins are wonderful things.

[DanCa]

61. I am tested every day but I havent given up hope.

A third Bush term though might do it.

[mvd]

62. Interesting question

One I haven't seen in all the conversations on faith. It's hard to answer, since God could be quite different than what I believe. I guess if Jesus came back and told me so, I'd change my view.

[entanglement]

65. A bit of friendly advice : take your question to GD

Oh, and don't forget to replace 'people of faith' with something slightly more interesting, like "stone-age southern christo-fascist fundies"

[MarsThe Cat]

71. and what are you like when you're not being "friendly"...?

nt

[entanglement]

80. Sorry, I should have put in an evil grin or sarcasm smiley

:)

[Beware the Beast Man]

68. It the burden of proof.

You can't prove God exists, yet you can't prove God doesn't exist either.

[Corgigal]

72. they should read this book

everyone. If this doesn't make some good damn sense to all of us then we really might be doomed to take our species off the planet. Now that might not be a bad thing...but here's the link.

http://www.samharris.org/

[blondeatlast]

74. I'm a doubter who has faith due to a circumstance I can't explain.

I should not be here, but I am.

I can't explain how I feel, but while I doubt there is a divine existence, I HAVE to believe there is. Something intervened on my behalf.

No bright light, no tunnel for me--but I was definitely dying at age 7. My late grampa told me I was going to be okay--after a month in a coma--and I AM.

Nonsensical, I know. But there is no other explantation for what happened. :shrug:

[MarsThe Cat]

75. no other explanation...?

then where do dreams come from?

and modern medicine gets better every day at saving people that are 'definitely dying'.

[bridgit]

77. dreams are easy, they are synaptic discharges, leftover...

images stored by the brain & then released onto the backside of the mind's eye

[blondeatlast]

99. I'm not gonna argue the point.

All I know is they'd pretty much given me up--at the age of SEVEN.

That was 39 years ago...

I can't explain it, don't understand it and I question my own experience.

The docs told my parents that it had nothing to do with medicine, that's all I know. My neighbors were preparing last rites.

I still doubt God's existence, but I WANT to believe. You don't have to like it, but there it is.

[mattomjoe]

78. A very thought provoking question

I will fully admit that, while I do believe in God, I also struggle mightily with my faith. I see organized religions who preach messages that completely go against the teachings of Christ. And a couple of weeks ago while in D.C., I visited the Holocaust Museum. One of the things that affected me there that I wasn't fully prepared for was how it really challenged my belief in God. I realize that our world was never meant be perfect, but I have a hard time coming to grips with the reality of the deaths of over 11 million people and trying to see God somewhere in that. I keep wondering where the grace of God was during the Holocaust. I haven't given up complete belief, but in terms of our place in the universe, I feel alone a lot more than I used to.

[MarsThe Cat]

82. but you're not alone-

there are billions of us all on/in the same boat.

[northzax]

79. how can you prove a negative?

you can prove existence, but you cannot disprove existence of something intangible.

[MarsThe Cat]

84. depending on what beliefs a person holds about their chosen god-

there are possible actualities that can go against or challenge their beliefs- for instance, how would a fundamentalist christian accept an archaelogical dig that uncovers a 50,000 year-old spacecraft in pristine condition, that contains info that confirms that the human race was seeded on this planet by civilizations from planets in a solar system around a dying sun in another part of the galaxy.
included in the ships data banks are huge amounts of technical and scientific data that are eons beyond our current knowledge- but absolutely nothing about any type of god or religious/spiritual beliefs.

[northzax]

86. the same way they accept carbon-14 dating

since God created everything, and knows everything, why can this not have been created as a Jobian test for the faithful?

you simply cannot answer that, if someone believes that everything is God's plan, then everything fufills God's plan. no matter how absurd it may seem.

[MarsThe Cat]

87. i guess the smaller the intellect,

the smaller the imagination.

but i have to believe that some of the fundies with the smaller foreheads might be open to discussion.

[northzax]

93. that is unncessarily insulting

to anyone with faith. there is more to faith in God than a literal interpretation of the bible, I personally am agnostic, and I guarantee that I can run intellectual circles around you, but the presence of such a spaceship would not disprove the existance of God to me, simply disprove the literalness of certain religious texts that I already believe to be metaphorical, as opposed to literal. It is reasonable to have faith without a belief in a literal reading of a document writtin in a language no one on the planet has spoken in 1800 years.

Aethism is as much a matter of faith as theism, both posit the currently unprovable, only aetheism can be unproven (although it won't be) and theism can't be. certain sects of theism, perhaps, but not the concept that there is a God.

[MarsThe Cat]

102. why so sensitive...?

if you couldn't even figure out that my post was aimed at the christie-fundies, and not you, then i don't know how you intend to "run intellectual circles around" me...

[northzax]

111. you seem to want to alternate between broad brushstrokes

and finer ones with inpunity, and say that you are only disparaging fundamentalists with your little lack of imagination comment. your post was directed at people with faith, not literal interpretationalists. there is a small difference, as you may learn sometime.

[MarsThe Cat]

115. you were the one who described the fundies beliefs as "absurd"-

not i.

[northzax]

123. no, I didn't actually

I called a physical challenge to faith potentially absurd, and that it might seem absurd to you, not to those with faith. The faith and belief isn't absurd, the challenge you pose to it is.

A fundamentalist, in fact, is more likely to have their beliefs challenged by a physical manifestation of something opposed to their textual beliefs. In fact, I would argue that someone tied too tightly to a text, or a series of texts, has more faith in the texts than the deity they worship.

I doubt that the many people espousing faith on this board would believe that an alien spacecraft would challenge their belief in a higher power, only that it is a tool of whatever God they might personally believe in. If you view the sacred texts as divinely inspired metaphors, then a direct challenge to them is impossible.

on edit: a clarification: your example may challenge religion but not faith, the two are not neccesarily the same thing. One can have religion without faith and faith without religion.

[Shell Beau]

81. I don't have an answer for that question. Faith

isn't about proof.

[MarsThe Cat]

85. so you can't even imagine any type of occurance-

that could challenge whatever beliefs you hold?

or you don't want to?

[Shell Beau]

88. There are things that challenge my belief everday.

Look at the weather the past month. But, I honestly can't imagine anything that would make me believe otherwise. I have had personal experiences that back my faith up for me. I feel like God has already been personally proven for me, so no, there is nothing that will change that.

[MarsThe Cat]

90. suppose a fleet of large spacecraft enter our solar system-

and take up orbit around earth...several smaller ships then descend and land near washington dc, cairo, and beijing...out of the ships come humanoid beings who explain that their people are responsible for the life on this planet- they are from high technologically advanced worlds, and they started earth as a living scince project, and have from time to time visited the planet, and introduced different things and ideas to see how the people would react...they were actually responsible for einstein, mozart, newton, jesus, mohammed, moses, and others- but they aren't gods- just very highly advanced humans.

[Shell Beau]

92. Well, then who created them?

The questions could go on and on forever. I will not change no matter how many possible situations you come up with. You may find that absurd or whatever. But as I said before, I have had personal experiences that confirm my faith for me.

[MarsThe Cat]

103. i guess john lennon was wrong then...

when he said:
Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

[Shell Beau]

105. I guess so!

I don't want to imagine there is no heaven, and I also don't look to John Lennon for spiritual advice! Although I do like the song and appreciate the meaning of it (which I believe to be Peace and nothing about God)

[nini]

91. I just love passive agressive flamebait

your replies to some people here crack me up.

If you want to bash those who believe then put it out there. Your subtle smackdowns are more annoying that a self righteous non believer. At least they are up front where they're coming from.

[Shell Beau]

95. Great point!!!

:)

[blondeatlast]

100. Amen--er, that didn't come out quite right, but...

:rofl:

[MarsThe Cat]

104. you can see whatever you want to see-

most people do...but the question is a legitimate one, albeit apparently difficult to answer for people with little imagination and large sticks up their arse.

[nini]

119. LOL

You just proved my point.. I love it. haha

[anarch]

94. ooh, the god-baiting thread is still here!

An update: My concept of God has indeed changed since first reading this...I now believe that this person:



professional golfing legend Arnold Palmer, is in fact God. If you can conclusively prove to me that Arnold Palmer does not exist, I will happily declare myself an atheist. Alternatively, you can pay me $25,000.00 as mentioned above. I'll take cash or a money order. Thx. :hippie:

[MarsThe Cat]

107. i don't think you read the question quite right...

or read a lot more into it than what's there.

[anarch]

109. I'm not getting the money, am I? (see post #19)

Oh, well. And you'll never prove to me that the Great Arnold Palmer does not exist, nor that He isn't the Supreme Being, so I guess I'm just stuck with my faith.

[MarsThe Cat]

116. i never set out to prove or disprove anything.

i asked a question that some people apparently viewed as a personal attack on their egocentric worlds.

[anarch]

118. not at all!

I was merely answering your question regarding "what it would take for me to renounce God". In my case, $25,000.00, or conclusive proof that Arnold Palmer is not the Supreme Being.

Perhaps this illustrative conversation from one of the great sacred texts (the Principia Discordia, or "How I Found the Goddess and What I Did to Her When I Found Her" -- http://www.ology.org/principia/ )will help you:

Greater Poop: Is Eris true?

Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.

GP: Even false things?

M2: Even false things are true.

GP: How can that be?

M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.

[Graf Orlok]

98. I have a quote that puts it all in perspective:

I realized aloud in the midst of saying it that even when we die we probably don't find out the question as to why we were ever alive. Even the avowed atheist probably thinks that in death he'll get some answer. I mean God will be there, or there won't be anything at all.

--Lestat de Lioncourt, The Vampire Lestat

It doesn't answer your question one bit, but it's something to think about nonetheless.

[dhinojosa]

114. I'm agnostic and I can prove EASILY that no one knows anything.

My proof: This thread.

[Der Blaue Engel]

120. As a former person of faith

I would say it was an act of faith in my own ability to reason that enabled me to stop believing. When it began to take increasingly irrational arguments (in my own head) to hold onto my belief in God, I realized I no longer truly believed. All that remained to "keep me in line" was the fear of hell, and I figured that was a poor reason to believe in a deity.

So it didn't take proof, because you can never prove that something doesn't exist. You just have to decide what feels right in your heart, and in mine, God didn't.

[Shell Beau]

121. I think that is a good point!

Although I believe differently than you, it is about what is in your heart.

edited for grammar

[Shell Beau]

125. Jeez...

Hasn't this been done to death? :shrug: