What's the deal w/homeschooling, anyone...?

[bliss_eternal]

I'm sincerely curious....

There was a time, it seemed this was a very 'liberal' thing to do. Former educators that had children later in life, yet were dissatisfied with the quality of education offered in schools.

Then gradually, it seemed that there was a shift, and it was more attributed to fundies, that didn't want their kids being taught creationism and other such things.

Honestly though, I don't know much about this phenomena. The above generalities by me, are based on observations and very limited experience and exposure to this.

It just seems like every other day, I'm hearing about yet another person is taking their kids out of school and homeschooling. So I'm intrigued.

Anyone here know more about it? Was it a progressive movement, or a conservative ideal? Where does it stand now? Are you pro or against this, and why...

[tjdee]

1. Kids don't get attention in public schools.

Or, they do, but not as much attention as they'd have with their parent teaching them. Parents can tailor their child's education to their child, instead of herding through 20 kids and teaching to some test.

My daughter, for example, is in the first grade. She knows how to add and subtract. Her class is only up to tracing numbers. That aggravates me, but what am I going to do, take her out? I have to work, and she's an only child. So I keep her in school.

Are there fundie homeschoolers? Yes. Are there stupid parents trying to homeschool their kids and doing horribly? Yes.

[bliss_eternal]

2. That concerns me--

how are people like yourself supposed to ensure that their kids get a quality education too? If parents that can, aren't making the effort to fight, to make the schools better as opposed to just snatching their kids out of public schools?

I understand why someone would do it. I support parent's right to do so. But I don't like the trade. It means that children of single parents (a very large population in this country that this admin ignores), get less than...

I don't like that idea at all.

Thanks for your response and input on this--appreciate it! :hi:

[youthere]

3. NCLB..

Is responsible for a lot of parents choosing homeschooling as an alternative to a declining public education for their kids. I homeschool all three of mine, and I'm damn lucky I'm in a position to do it.

[bliss_eternal]

4. What's the NCLB?

I take it public education is suffering in your state/city, too?

It's ridiculous, and a crying shame that more money has been put into war, special interests (in my state), and fat cats wallets that can afford to send their kids to private school--than it is into the nations' children.

:( :mad: :grr: :(

Where are the priorities?

[youthere]

6. No Child Left Behind...

Everything is measured off of basic skills test. Basically here's how it works:
1. we focus on only the poorest school districts.
2. if any kids do not pass the basic skills test for their grade (regardless of the child's abilities) we hold the teacher personally accountable.
3. any grades that do not pass the basic skills test we pull more resources from the (allready hurting financially) school.
So the result is that otherwise talented and gifted teachers are forced to "teach to the test". Drill drill drill. Memorize, regurgitate. That is the nature of public school today (unless you are fortunate enough to live in one of the wealthier school districts-and even they are beginning to suffer).
It used to be that a teacher in a standard classroom moved at a "medium" pace-not as fast as the quickest student, not as slow as the slowest(with additional programs to help those who need it). Now a teacher can only move the entire class along as fast as the SLOWEST student, so the kids that are more advanced (or even average) lose momentum. Additional cuts in funding mean that programs designed to give kids extra help are now suspended for all but the most learning disabled kids. Kids that have slight or moderate learning disabilites are mainstreamed back into the classroom. Same thing on the other side. Funding cuts mean the gifted and talented kids have their programming suspended and back into a regular classroom they go. Nobody wins. Everybody loses. Game over. Thanks for nothing, George. The saddest part is that even when schools meet the federal expectations, they are STILL getting their funding cut. (Sorry, I didn't intend this to be a rant).

[bliss_eternal]

9. No need to apologize.

Of course you are passionate about the various obstacles our govt. has put on the ability to educate our children.

It never ceases to amaze me.

Didn't boy george go on and on about 'education' in the debates? Wasn't that his answer to every other question?

Nice to see how it REALLY is :eyes:

[youthere]

11. Yes, no kidding.

And I gotta' say that while homeschooling is working for us, I wish there were another answer. There are tons of parents (just like tjdee) that homeschooling just isn't an option for, what about their kids, you know?

[bliss_eternal]

18. Yes, exactly! See my post below---

The kids left behind are the same kids that will be running the country when we are all older. Shouldn't we, someone, anyone be concerned about their well being, education, etc. too?

Do you really want someone that can barely read and write caring for you in your old age? Handling your financial services, even filling your order at a restaurant?

I was blown away by Cynthia Nixon a few years ago. She's a star of a hit tv show. She could totally afford to send her daughter to a private school, or hire a tutor to home school her.

She however didn't consider this an option. She was arrested for protesting the state of the education system and programs that were being canceled at her daughter's public school.

Makes you think...

[OneGrassRoot]

5. Me, too..........

I work from home and am VERY grateful it is an option. Otherwise my now 12-year-old would have been on the bus at 5:30 AM and not home until 5:00 PM....or I'd be sitting in traffic three hours of the workday....neither of which are options.

Oh, not to mention the fact that I'd STILL have to teach her everything she was simply EXPOSED to during the school day.

It's a friggin mess here in North Carolina as far as the public school system....constant reassignments and no such thing as neighborhood schools. The academic quality probably varies from teacher to teacher, school to school...yet our experience was always dismal. Plus, she got a whopping 15 minutes of social interaction time - IF her classwork was done - so the "social interaction" argument doesn't fly.

I'd love to find another alternative but, for now, homeschooling is really the best choice for us.

[youthere]

7. I never bought the "lack of socialization" argument either...

my kids get more social opportunities than they EVER had in public school. We belong to a homeschool association (which is nice) and they are involved in various civic activities.

Not to mention the fact that the "socialization" they receive at school is for the most part unsupervised (1 teacher for 30+ students is NOT supervised). In our "school" it is 3 students to 1 teacher-much to their dismay, it's supervised!;-)

On edit: Have you checked out the homeschooling group here on DU? You should. It doesn't get a lot of traffic, but there are some good discussions from time to time.

[bliss_eternal]

8. thank you...

not sure if the homeschooling board suggestion was for me, or the prior poster, but I'll check it out. Maybe I'll find more sides to the issue to help me learn more.

:hi:

[youthere]

10. for both of you of course!

[youthere]

12. Here's the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=251

[bliss_eternal]

14. Thank you!

:)

[OneGrassRoot]

17. Yes, thank you n/t

[riderinthestorm]

38. I live in Wheaton, IL

Home of Billy Graham, Wheaton College and every fundy church you ever saw.

Virtually everyone who homeschools here does it because of "the secular values in the public schools" which is bullshit because everyone who lives here in this town is a fundy.

So everyone in my public schools is a fundy too. We have the greatest number of churches/capita in the entire USA.

We have one of the highest standards of education in the nation. Yet still, people "must home school".

I am convinced, knowing at least 10 home schooling families, that they do so because they honestly believe they are teaching their children "their values".

WTF those "values" are, well, who knows.

I think homeschooling is a way for parents to opt out of exposing their children to ANY other philosophy/life education skills techniques/religion/political perspective.....

It's apartheid. On demand, enforced by the parents. Plain and simple.

At least in this community, no matter how they dress up the language. No matter how they try to address the academics.

[youthere]

47. And whose values should parents be teaching to their kids?

Look, I don't agree with the whole fundamental (religious freak) thing either...but they have the right to teach their children whatever values they want. That's their right as parents. I don't like it...but it's their right. Unless they are abusive or neglecting their child, or are physically endangering them in some manner it's not up to me to tell them they are wrong, or to question the values they teach their children, just because they don't agree with my own. If I don't want my children in a school loaded with fundies, am I opting out of exposing them to another religious perspective?
I sure as hell don't want the state (or the federal gov't for that matter) telling me what "values" I can teach to my kids (especially THIS government!).

[bliss_eternal]

13. I'm glad that some homeschoolers have responded.

It's given me some much needed perspective on the situation. But I am still concerned about those that CAN'T homeschool. What about them?

If everyone takes their kids out of the schools, who is left to fight for public education, to improve it so EVERYONE gets a decent education...not just those that have the capacity to private school, homeschool, etc.?

Anyone?

I know this isn't something your average joe on a board can answer necessarily. But it is a concern...

The kids 'left behind' in public school, who advocates for them? Particularly those that are products of divorce, single parents, etc.? Many of these kids will become the nurses and aids responsible for caring for all of US when we are older. Shouldn't we be concerned about their educations, too?

[samplegirl]

15. my next door neighbors homeschool

and if you ask me............its all about the tax deduction
they get for homeschooling. I think alot can be racism as
some dont want their children god forbid in school with black
kids.
I think the whole idea of homeschooling should be outlawed.

[OneGrassRoot]

16. Tax deduction?

What state do you live in? I've never even heard of getting a tax deduction for homeschooling.

[youthere]

20. I've never heard of a tax deduction either...

but it does vary from state to state.

[samplegirl]

26. Ohio

im sure my neighbor told me its so much per child. Will have to
research this.

[LeftyMom]

43. I just looked it up

There's a bill in your state legislature, House Bill 40, to give homeschooling families a $100 credit (per educator not per child, it's an amendment to the existing tax credit for teachers) for instructional materials. I can't find a homeschooling org that supports it although the HSLDA, a by wingnuts for wingnuts organization most HSers want no part of, is neutral. In any case it's dead in the water- there's no action on the bill since February.

[youthere]

44. LeftyMom...

Did I ever tell you you're my hero?:bounce: You rock.

[LeftyMom]

45. awwwww

:blush:

It's nothing really. I did debate in high school and was very good at it because I have a great memory for details and statistics, although what I ate for breakfast or where I'm due to be in a hour is another story entirely. Anyhow finding stuff like that is much easier now that we can google stuff instead of having to dig through thousands of pages of photocopies in binders and piles of old magazines like I used to have to do. Looking something like that up keeps my brain from drying up and crubling out my ear. :D

[samplegirl]

48. thank you

im going to ask her when i see her.

[youthere]

19. Why?

Becuase your neighbor is a racist jerk?

[OneGrassRoot]

21. I rarely even admit that I homeschool..........

precisely for this reason. Man, people have such STRONG opinions, and it's usually people who don't even have kids.

Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, and nothing is black and white....there are valid issues on both sides....but, geez, it's so easy to get flamed for doing the best you can.....:eyes:

Like you, I am simply grateful it's an option for us, though I would prefer it wouldn't be a necessary option.

[bliss_eternal]

23. I understand your feeling this way...

but please don't be put off by this. It is just another side to the issue. None of us lives on an island.

Everyone's choices ultimately affect others in a way...

By homeschooling, the long term affect may be that the schools continue to decline, and NO ONE is there to advocate for the kids that need a voice, the kids whose parents don't have the option to hs. There may be some repurcussions, that many aren't considering...that's why I'm asking these questions--to understand the issue better. On all sides...

It's just something to consider, not something anyone wants YOU to feel bad about at all. I don't blame you for doing what you feel is best for your children. :hug:

[youthere]

25. LOL..

Yes..very often people without kids have the strongest opinions on everything pertaining to them. LOL. Gotta' love that.

[bliss_eternal]

29. I understand what you're saying...

but everyone's children DO affect ALL of us--in the long run, don't you think?

I mean, is the hokey song true or not when it says children are the future? LOL!

Sure, we probably shouldn't tell others how to raise kids, but is it wrong to have an opinion when ultimately when these kids grow up they WILL affect ALL of us?

Just offering another perspective.... :shrug:

[youthere]

33. It's not about the opinion,

it's about the uninformed blanket statements. That's what makes us laugh. Believe me, anyone who homeschools for any length of time has dealt with more than their fair share of broadbrush statements and uneducated opinions-people who deem themselves experts of homeschooling because "they know a kid who was homeschooled and didn't know how to read" or "they knew a guy who homeschooled and (fill in the blank with horrible outcome.)" I can understand the concern for how homeschooled kids will ultimately affect society, and all I can tell you is that from MY experience with homeschooling, I'm more concerned about some of the kids coming out of public school that I am about the homeschooled kids, but that's just MY experience.

Personally, I agree with timeforarevolution..usually we just avoid discussing homeschooling because it seems to always turn nasty, but this thread was just worded so politely and has had such intelligent discussion, who could resist?

[bliss_eternal]

34. You are a sweetheart!

To say such nice things about this thread--thank you!

I was sitting here cracking up as I read the part about someone knowing one kid that homeschooled that can't read. That's so ridiculous--it's funny.

They obviously haven't encountered the many internet boards by young people today that are obviously more than a little illiterate, or have had to work with someone and made the mistake of having to 'read' something they wrote. :banghead:

Seriously, there are some kids out there, coming out of PRIVATE SCHOOLS that are way stupid! No one should be making broad statements about homeschooling, but I'm sure you've heard it all. Sorry about that--I'm sure it gets really old.

As old as it gets for me to hear, how I am wasting my life because I haven't blessed my husband with children. :wtf: LOL! We all get it from someone don't we? LOL!

[youthere]

35. Thank YOU..

It's nice to have a rational and intelligent conversation about homeschooling, I really have enjoyed it and would like to have more discussion on it.

[bliss_eternal]

36. Sure! Anytime!

I love to learn! If a subject gains my interest, I can get rather obsessive in terms of research. I'm just thankful that you guys were so kind and forthcoming with information--I really appreciate it!

[bliss_eternal]

22. Interesting--

I really appreciate your response, I wanted to hear another perspective on this.

But this is a good question to consider--are homeschoolers raising kids that will be culturally or socally biased in any ways? What I've read thus far says no... but is homeschooling somehow limiting the experiences of children? Or is it opening children to more? Even socially?

Is keeping kids from the school environment somehow suggesting somehow that EVERYTHING (including the kids) at school should be deemed as negative?

:shrug:

edited to rewrite and rephrase...

[youthere]

24. Well I can't speak for all homeschoolers,

but in our particular situation, our kids actually have been exposed to MORE diversity through homeschooling. We live in a small town (VERY white) so they went to public school with white kids..white farm kids. When we made the switch to homeschooling we decided to open enroll them to a district that has a homeschooling assistance program in the city. Now they go on fieldtrips (with other homeschooled kids) and are exposed to other cultures, and races and lifestyles and it has been a tremendous benefit to them.
I know that there are homeschoolers who chose it to isolate or insulate their kids from this or that influence, however the majority of homeschoolers I know are fairly progressive (but then again, the homeschoolers that fundies would know would tend to be mostly other fundies and so on...funny how it works out that way).

[bliss_eternal]

27. Wow--that's great to hear!

...very encouraging!

I guess like anything, there are those that go into it (homeschooling) with the best of motives and those that do it to support their own limited views and ideas. It isn't fair to knock an entire trend based on the ignorance of a few...

It goes back to my original post question of when or how has this got into the hands of the fundies--and how will that impact society?

As a person without kids (at the moment), it's frustrating to encounter younger people that can't read or write well and I wonder what is going on in schools today. Yet I also wonder how it got so bad and if it's just going to get worse, as people remove their kids from schools that aren't up to par...

:shrug:

I'm glad that some have the option and pleased that it is offering positive experiences for so many. Definite plus.

Just really sad and rather confused about those that are left behind. How can we help them?

[youthere]

30. Yes, I think it depends greatly..

on the intention or purpose behind choosing homeschooling, and you get out of it what you put into it. We are fortunate in our situation, but I would still not recommend homeschooling for everyone.

Unfortunately there are a lot of inept, stupid and shallow people homeschooling their kids and unfortunately that casts aspersions on all the really wonderful parents working hard to give their kids the best education they can.

The sad part is, there are an awful lot of parents who are basically trapped by the system the way it exists currently. I don't know what the answer is for them...but a good start would be to get rid of this administration and either get rid of NCLB or get it working the way it was supposed to, the way it was written.

[bliss_eternal]

32. I felt so badly for that poor woman in Texas--

I don't recall her name. A few years back, she killed herself and her children. She seemed to have postpartum depression and probably some other issues with her mental health. She was homeschooling.

It seems she was just so overwhelmed by being a mom, being with her children constantly, etc.

Just felt horrible that she may have been doing something that was very difficult on her, that ultimately destroyed her and her children. Not homeschooling of course, just not having ANY other options. :(

Oh, and I know you guys don't or can't answer those questions. It's nice that you are concerned about the ones that are left behind. I agree--this administration hasn't been at all concerned with giving parents of all walks of life OPTIONS for their children's educations, and that is inexcusable.

We ALL have a stake in the future of children in this country. Not just those with kids...

[riderinthestorm]

40. The 2 families I know whose children

decided to go to public school after home schooling (both of them were adolescents seeking more socialization in the high school years), those children were not academically able to enter "their" biological/grade appropriate age.

They were held back.

In the one case, the girl was not able to meet the state standards by 2 years. In the other case, the girl was not able to meet the state standards by 1 year. The one girl ended up dropping out of school, the other ended up enrolling in a private school at great expense in an attempt to graduate with her age-appropriate peers. (She didn't make it. How sad is that?)

[youthere]

41. Dropping out is always unfortunate.

And it does happen sometimes in homeschooling. This also happens in public schooling and private schooling as well.

[OneGrassRoot]

28. thank you.........

for what you wrote above. Actually, I was going to write that your OP was very respectful. I don't sense this strong, judgmental opinion from you at all. Simply a very understandable desire to learn both sides of the issue.

As for our family, the decision to homeschool is a joint decision - between me and my daughter - weighing the pros and cons of the situation. She is the one who makes the final decision each year (we're in the third year of homeschooling).

I understand your concern about the children for whom homeschooling isn't an option, and that more attention should be given to correcting the underlying problems within public schools.

I don't know....there are simply so many issues facing us nowadays that I find it overwhelming. The state of this country, the state of the world, the planet. This is something that I CAN control. Again, I realize I am fortunate to have this as an option. In a perfect world I could fight to improve the system while at the same time NOT having my daughter's education harmed in any way by keeping her in the system. She would definitely suffer in the current system.

As for racism.....my thought on this lies with the underlying reason of WHY people are homeschooling. Most of us here are doing it because we want the best education for our children and the system isn't offering that. For fundies (in general), they are doing it to shelter their children and keep them in a bubble of sorts and, yes, I would say for some of them keeping them away from anyone different is part of that.

I guess my bottom line with regard to your question is that, for children being raised in a Christian fundamentalist environment, they may indeed feel that school is bad, that kids that go to public schools are bad, etc. For my daughter, she would like to go to a public school again...she doesn't have any belief that all public schools are bad. Our intention is to have her return when she is assigned to a school that doesn't require her to be at the bus stop at 5:30 AM and return at 5:00 PM and offers a quality education without me having to teach her everything even though she has been at school all day.

I'm pooped....this subject wears me out....:) I'm not going to take the time to proof, so please don't anyone flame me as being unqualified to teach my child....I'm simply exhausted now.....

Again, thank you for your thoughtfulness in how you pose the questions. Hugs back atcha.....:pals: ;-)

[bliss_eternal]

31. Oh thank you--for such a kind and thoughtful response!

It's hard. I feel weird even asking these questions. As it is based on choice. I'm all about everyone having their choices available and respected. It's far from black and white--there's so much to this issue, and no easy answers on any level. That's plainly clear to me.

I don't want to step on ANY toes about this, because ultimately as you said, you are doing what you see as best for YOUR kid--that's your job. A very difficult job, and no one has any right to question it or second guess parents. (Unless they end up on the news for beating the crap out of them, kwim?)

It honestly just sucks that you HAVE to take on so much. That our nation isn't more concerned with the quality of education for EVERYONE. Really sucks...

Thanks again, I appreciate you all taking the time to share this stuff with me. So sorry about wearing you out! See you around the boards another time! :hi:

[LeftyMom]

42. We get a tax deduction?

News to me. Actually even though I'm in a private school statute state (which is to say that in CA there's no such thing as homeschooling, as far as the state's concerned the only difference between the lefty family homeschool and St Whatevertheheck's is that the parochial school requires a fire marshall's inspection and some other code compliance stuff based on occupancy) we can't avail ourselves of the little deduction for supplies costs or anything. We certainly can't be non-profit like St W.

I for one don't want tax breaks as I suspect they'd be a way to make us jump through hoops and would lead to increased regulation.

Homeschooling predates racial integration of public schools and up until about 25 years ago was largely a liberal phenomoenon. Racists and fundies had thier kids in private church-run schools until the tax law changed and drove many smaller private schools out of business. At that time many of them switched to homeschooling but they generally set up paralel infrastructure (state associations, publishing houses and the like) and rarely associated with the previous liberal homeschoolers, who tended to be leftish with a libertarian bent in politics but were primarily focused on giving thier kids a developmentally apropriate education.

Thankfully the right of parents to pursue private education for thier children was esablished nearly 100 years ago in Oregon v. Society of Sisters. The right to do the teaching in-house and to vary that education substantially from the state-aproved curriculum is also clear, thanks to cases relating to private schools in Hawaii and Amish home educators (in PA I think) although I don't have the citations at hand. I can look them up if anybody's interested.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

37. There are still plenty of liberal homeschoolers.

I'm one of them. We have a discussion board here on DU.

There's certainly an abundance of homeschool programs which focus on adding a fundy "Christian" element to the curriculum. It's a challenge sometimes to find materials that don't drag Jesus into the picture.

I prefer not to view any school in a negative light. For me, homeschooling is just one more option. Parents need many options available to them without guilt trips that society typically lays on them for seeking alternatives to the standards.

In our current situation, homeschooling allows us to spend time with our 7 year old. As musicians, most of our work is in the evenings, so we'd only see him for 3 hours maximum each day. There are other reasons for our choosing the homeschool route, but this is the primary one.

Personally, I'd like to see our public education system welcome more alternative schools into their fold. Many local systems have Montessori magnets. This is one tiny step in the right direction. Above all, I don't think you could find one parent or educator in the country that doesn't agree that smaller class sizes make better educated children. If the nation made a commitment to shrinking class size, they could offer these alternative options.

[qnr]

39. Just checking in to see if you've corrected that "Fundies didn't want

their kids being taught creationism" (paraphrased) bit yet :)

[bliss_eternal]

49. I'm sorry, but I don't understand

why you would be expecting an amendment of some sort to what I said?

I can't correct something that is not pointed out to me as false.

I thought I made it clear (in starting this discussion)that I did not know much about homeschooling and was looking to learn more.

If you would like to suggest or state that what I said about fundies and homeschooling is incorrect, feel free.

Please keep in mind, I didn't state it as fact, merely that was something I had found in limited reading on the subject.

[lakemonster11]

51. I think qnr is just trying to point out an error.

Fundies *would* want their children taught creationism. They *wouldn't* want their children taught evolution.

Don't worry, I didn't notice it before it was pointed out!

;)

[bliss_eternal]

52. Ah--ok, NOW I see--thank you!

I got my terms mixed up! Silly me! I meant it the way you just said it, forgive my faux pas--I was more than a little sleep deprived when creating this thread.

Thanks again for the correction! :hi:

[JVS]

46. I think the fundamental principle across all political lines is...

that many people think that they can do a better job than the school system, and that if they have the time and money to homeschool they feel more comfortable doing it that way.

[bliss_eternal]

50. ...understandable.

Thanks for adding your response--I appreciate your input. This was an interesting thread--I learned a lot.

:hi: