My uncle is dying and my aunt is being harassed by slimeball collectors!

[liberalhistorian]

As many of you already know, my uncle suffered a recurrence of his cancer that he was supposedly "cured" from seven years ago, and this time it's much worse and the prognosis is very bad.

He's been dealing with chemo and radiation and that whole gauntlet, which leaves him with barely the strength to move, let alone work. On those days that he is able to work, he almost never makes it through the whole day (he's 54). My aunt works full-time in addition to caring for him, which is, understandably, starting to take a physical and emotional toll on her.

She has also had to fight almost daily with his goddamn, low-life, pond-scum, bottom-feeding, inhuman, inhumane, greedy, selfish, fucking blood-sucking HMO, whose employees and management can't seem to get it through their heads that this is CANCER they are dealing with, and not a goddamned cold or hangnail. She is ALWAYS fighting with them to cover something, or to approve a treatment, or to at least partially cover something.

She is terrified that the bills will become too much for them and they will have to sell the house, cash in pensions, or other drastic steps, just to keep the hospital CEO's and the doctors living in the style to which they're obviously accustomed.

And when she does take him in for a treatment, she first has to deal with the gatekeepers at the hospital, whose only concern is whether or not the treatment is approved and will be at least partially covered, and that she has the resources to cover the rest. Here both of them should be focusing ONLY on his health and comfort, and they have to deal with these goddamn fucksticks who only care about money and, in the case of the HMO, how they can get out of paying any money. Never mind that most of the HMO gatekeepers not only do not have anything resembling a medical degree, but they will also never have to deal with this kind of shit themselves, since they're usually either fully covered or have the resources to cover whatever isn't paid.

And now she's getting bombarded with harassing calls from the goddamned hospital's fucking collection agency, as well as the agencies for the greedy, blood-sucking, doctors, labs, etc., who seem to have forgotten the true purpose and meaning of their profession. She gets bothered at work, at home, at all hours of the day and night.

She knows her rights under the Fair Debt Collection Act, and I've helped her write letters demanding that they contact her by mail only and no longer by phone. By law, they must comply with such written requests. They do comply, but it's like the old Whack-a-Mole game, no sooner do you get rid of one than another one pops up to take its place. She finally lost it at one and screamed that her husband was dying and she didn't give a fuck whether or not the damn fucking doctor and hospital got one more cent, and the collector got all huffy and haughty, telling her that the docs and hospitals have expenses too and if people are really sick, that's not their problem!!!!!! WTF????

These people make me physically ill, how the fuck they can sleep at night knowing they're making tons of money off of the misery and misfortune of others, particularly when it comes to medical debt, is completely beyond my comprehension. Why the fuck we can't have universal, comprehensive coverage like every other industrialized nation in the world is also completely beyond me. And I see it getting much worse, not better.

I've had to fend off the medical collectors myself, and these people are vicious and ruthless. They make you feel like shit, like the lowest of the low, like you're a criminal because you're either uninsured or your insurance won't pay everything. They make it seem like the world will end if you don't pay every single cent RIGHT NOW, no matter how much it is. Guess the docs and hospital CEO's have to make their BMW payments somehow.

As far as I'm concerned, medical bills should NOT EVER be put on credit reports, and medical collection agencies SHOULD NOT EVEN EXIST. People like my aunt and uncle have more than enough to deal with in their situations, without these motherfuckers bothering them.

[Padraig18]

1. Have her ask...

... if your uncle qualifies for reduced-cost or free treatment under the Hill-Burton Act. Virtually every hopsital in the coubntry accepts federal funds under the act, and in return they are required to give away or reduce the cost of all treatment they offer. There are income guidelines, but with your uncle not being able to work as much, plus their increased expenses, they might qualify, and it would certainly get the debt collectors off of their backs if they do.

:hug:

[liberalhistorian]

3. That's a good suggestion,

I'll have them check it out. She makes fairly good money, though, so I'm not sure if they'd qualify, but it's certainly worth a try, thanks! I know it would be a great relief to them, too. Does it still apply if you have insurance, though, do you know?

[Padraig18]

9. I'm not sure, dear, TBH...

But I hope it works out for them. :)

[burrowowl]

2. When will

Murika get civilized like Europe?
Sick in Murika is hell!
My prayers are with your family.

[liberalhistorian]

5. Thanks, and I agree,

I'm getting really "sick", so to speak, of the entire health care system in this country and it's getting worse and worse, with no relief in sight. Even the middle and upper classes are now starting to feel it as well. Universal, comprehensive, guaranteed health care is my strongest pet issue, I'm a member of the local branch of the statewide single-payer group, as well as UHCAN (Universal Health Care Action Network).

I fail to understand how any American can accept people having to lose their homes or file for bankruptcy and lose nearly everything because they or a family member had the nerve to get a serious or chronic illness.

[nini]

4. get caller ID and screen the calls

At least she won't answer when they call...


get on the primary care dr's office to make sure they handle alot of this. My Dr's office and the Doc himself are excellent at handling HMOs and getting the approvals. It's tough to do that work yourself if the office isn't stepping up.

Good Luck and best to your aunt and uncle.

[nofurylike]

6. i am so sorry you and your uncle and aunt are going through this!

how heartless so many people are becoming!
how fine that you are there for them!

have you already gone to a lawyer?

i highly recommend that, from experience. they stand between consumers and creditors. they can really help in getting debt reorganized too.

at least to get that added suffering lifted, so you all can focus where it really matters.


hang in there.
peace and healing golden light!

[tainted_chimp]

7. Grrrrr....

As if it isn't hard enough to watch her husband slowly die, she has to be bombarded daily by those relentless blood suckers.

Unbelievable how fucked up things are unless you're wealthy. I'm so sorry liberalhistorian.

~Lisa

[liberalhistorian]

11. Those are, indeed, the three

key words nowadays, "if you're wealthy." A society that determines the moral worth of a person's life by the amount of money they have is, indeed, in a lot of trouble.

[wtmusic]

20. hey tc who's that in your sig?

[Skittles]

38. it's Louise Brooks

one of the original vamps. :D

[tainted_chimp]

40. thanks skittles! n/t

[FarLeftRage]

8. You have my sympathy

and :hug: s for sure.

I have dealt with these types before and was able to work something reasonabe out with them.
But this was about twenty years ago, long before the current f*cked up system now came into being.

Money is the only bottom line for these leeches now.

You're in my prayers tonight.

[liberalhistorian]

10. That's for sure about money being the

bottom line now. Twenty years ago it was, indeed, possible to try to work things out with them, now all they care about is getting all the money RIGHT NOW! Sickening.

[roguevalley]

12. see if there are support groups. they may have useful contacts.

sometimes senior groups have professional people that donate
their time to help with paperwork crap. See if it is there in
her area. There are also federally supported help groups that
can give you someone to help with the care and pay for it too.
Ours is called Frontier. Check the book for help, honey. DOn't
be shy. Caretaker Syndrome can kill a person. :(

God bless them and you both. I HATE HMO's. They are satanic.

[liberalhistorian]

13. Thanks for those suggestions, I'll

definitely check them out for her. And yes, HMO's are, indeed, satanic, and that's being kind!

[kimchi]

14. I'm sorry you are going through this mess.

I found out only recently the real reason Dad sold the house after Mom died: he used part of the money to get rid of all the creditors on his back from her last year in and out of hospitals. I wish he had told me so that I could have helped him the way you are helping your relatives.

It sickens me that people hound the sick and grieving for a buck. Even Suze told someone yesterday to use her mother's money to make her last days as nice as possible instead of paying creditors. I was delighted to hear her give that advice. People first, always.

You are certainly in my thoughts and prayers.

[liberalhistorian]

17. Suze? I'm sorry, I don't know who that

is, is she an advice columnist or something like that?

[blondeatlast]

15. Been there, LH.

PM ing you now.

[NightTrain]

16. Don't you just love 21st-century America?

In early 1996, when my father and I were living in the Las Vegas area, he suffered a mild stroke. For three days of hospitalization, his bills totalled over $8,000. Since he did not have any insurance, it didn't take long for the phone to start ringing with calls from collection agencies. It got so bad, we actually packed up and moved to Florida!

Come to think of it, the sixth anniversary of my father's death is coming up on January 10th. I can't believe it's been that long!

[liberalhistorian]

22. The uninsured have it worse in another

way as well, they end up paying far more for hospital care than those with insurance. That's because insurers negotiate bulk discounts with hospitals so that those with insurance pay far less than the regular price hospitals would normally charge.

For instance, I had a total hysterectomy last summer, for which the hospital charged around $6,800 (just the hospital charge, NOTHING ELSE). But someone without insurance would have been charged nearly twenty one THOUSAND DOLLARS for the same surgery! And hospitals are notorious for hounding the uninsured for these bills, putting liens on their houses if they have one (and it's often the only thing of value they own), forcing people into foreclosure, nice and caring shit like that.

I even read a report recently where a business consultant whose specialty was medical issues released an opinion calling uninsured patients "cash cows" because they can be charged so much more, and urging hospitals to be even MORE aggressive in collecting the bills, even if it meant foreclosures. Isn't that nice? I had to read that twice before I could believe it.

[caledesi]

18. When my brother was dying of cancer and the calls came in, he

said this "I have f*cking cancer. Do you actual think that one of my priorities is paying you?" Click.

How I miss him.

[liberalhistorian]

26. LOL!

Good for him, and that's what we should all do! And I'm sure you do, indeed, miss him, I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[caledesi]

32. LH - My brother was the best, I mean the best.

He fought his illness until the very end. There are so MANY funny stories. I remember the day he went to the hospital (for good), I called him because I knew my older sister was on the way to his house to "take care of him." So I called him and he said "Mrs. Doubtfire is on her way." He was DYING and still had the humor and I loved him for that.

[amazona]

19. bankruptcy might be the best choice

A friend of mine was seriously injured on the job and told he would never walk again. While recovering from that blow, he learned he had cancer. His wife's job at a nonprofit wasn't even enough to cover a $20 co-pay. They declared bankruptcy and learned that they could keep their house by "affirming the debt." It probably depends on the state, but in our state, you are allowed to keep your house, and each working adult gets to keep their car. It is not true that bankruptcy means that your house, car, etc. will be sold out from under you. It worked well to get the vultures off their back and as they already had a house, they were not so concerned about having a bad credit report. A younger person, who didn't yet have a home and would not be able to get a loan for many years, might have more reason to fear bankruptcy. But sometimes it is the best option. I don't know how else you can save your home in these circumstances; the $100,000 home that you worked a lifetime to buy is only the cost of a few chemotherapies with these vultures.

Being wealthy is no protection. My mom's friend had the same cancer (Hodgkin's disease). She had several million dollars. In the end, before she died, the doctors and the hospitals got it all. She hired a lawyer to fight these over-charges but had no success. There are no price controls on medical care. They get your social security number, and apparently they can do a complete assets search on a patient with a serious disease; if you have anything, they're going to figure out a way to get it away from you.

[liberalhistorian]

27. Isn't that beyond sickening

that they can do an assets search on you when you're sick like that, and that they can then LEGALLY get it all???? I've heard that there are even companies now that doctors and hospitals can hire that will check a person's ability to pay before they treat them!! Can you actually fucking BELIEVE that??

[politicat]

39. Warning: It depends on the Judge.

My mother and step-father (who died in February of long term cancer) did end up losing their house. Although his illness was clearly the reason why they got behind on payments (for his medical bills) when they tried to declare bankruptcy, the judge decided they did not have grounds and would not allow them to affirm the debt.

Their house went at auction. It was a huge blow for both of them.

Yes, we need a single payer, non-profit system. But we also need to reform (in the real sense, not the ghastly repug sense) the bankruptcy laws.

Politicat (who is pretty sure that mom's going to be able to declare bankruptcy now that he's dead....)

[amazona]

68. it also depends on the state

Louisiana is a homestead state and is pretty good about keeping people in their homes. I have heard that some other states are not very good at all. There is no substitute for a consult with a bankruptcy lawyer, I suppose.

[Devoir]

21. I have sympathy for your aunt and uncle

but as a businessman, I also know the hospitals walk a fine line because they have to get paid for their expenses, or before long, they won't be able to serve anybody.
America provides the best hospital care in the world. That is why foreign leaders come here for treatment. Unfortunately, that great care is very costly. We should analyze why our medical care is the best in the world, so that it can continue to be that way. You'd hate to see the quality of that care diminished by emulating some of the less successful countries. Not sure what can be done to help your relatives, though. I know from experience that even if your insurance covers a procedure, you often have to fight tooth and tail to get them to pay. They overwhelm you with paperwork that often contradicts itself. I can't tell if the run-around is the result of incompetent people and a system where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing...or an intentional confusion designed to make people throw up their hands and pay what they don't owe.

[amazona]

23. it isn't the best care in the world based on mortality rates

I like to go by the math and the numbers rather than by celebrities. I have to assume that in the many countries where people live longer than we do, those people are somehow receiving better care. Hell, the lifespan even in little Costa Rica is longer than it is here!


We pay through the nose for inferior care or for just average care. That is what is so frustrating about it. If we actually had a lifespan like someone in Japan or Switzerland or any of a number of other countries, we might not feel so cheated.

[Devoir]

25. If you are going by longevity, I think lifestyle has more to do with it

than our healthcare system. Eating beans, rice, and fish is way more conducive to longevity than our heavy-carb, high-fat diets, low exercise lifestyles. A health-care system can't cure a lifetime of gluttony and laziness.

[camero]

34. Lifestyle, Lifestyle, lifestyle.

Give me an effin break. A handy excuse for people who don't want to look at the environmental causes of disease and illness. Like what's the consequences of having more arsenic in our water? Or the air being more polluted? Or putting up with more toxic chemicals in our jobs?

Give me a break. I can see right through your BS.

[caledesi]

58. The most salient feature in terms of longevity are genes.

Believe me. You can live a "not-so-perfect" lifestyle, but it all comes down to genes. My grandfather died in his sleep at 85 (he smoked til the very end). I rest my case.

[camero]

59. I agree, but what about the other things?

I have already been told that my diabetes was genetic (it's all over my dad's side, god rest his soul) but I think extreme stress was also a direct contributor.

I say this because the fad in medicine is to blame every disease (even cancer) on lifestyle while there are very few studies which even try to look for a link to the effect our environment has on the cause and progression of illness.

That way, we cannot see the effect of Bush's environmental policies on our overall health. It's just more "blame the victim."

[Devoir]

73. I thought it was

"but I think extreme stress was also a direct contributor"

Wait! I thought the problems were the healthcare system's fault.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalhistorian]

24. Oh, PLEASE,

please don't give me that "hospitals have expenses" bullshit. Maybe they'd have less expenses if they wouldn't pay their goddamn CEOs and management their mega-mucho-bucks salaries, if they didn't have "marketing and development" departments, etc., etc.

And that bullshit about hospitals giving the best care in the world is just that, bullshit. Yes, many of them do, but just try to get access to that care if you don't have good insurance or aren't wealthy enough to cover what insurance won't. I live near the Cleveland Clinic, which provides world-class care to THOSE WHO HAVE MONEY. A few blocks away are neighborhoods where the residents will never see the inside of any Cleveland Clinic building unless they're a research subject or dead. That, my friend, is simply inhumane and unacceptable.

[Devoir]

30. It's hard to ask people to work for less than the market will bear

"Maybe they'd have less expenses if they wouldn't pay their goddamn CEOs and management their mega-mucho-bucks salaries"

What you say is true, but realistically, you have to pay CEOs and management talent salaries in line with what they could make elsewhere, or elsewhere they will go. While there are exceptions, most of the blue-chip leadership talent isn't going to act against their own self-interests.

[camero]

37. AOL lost $100 Billion in one year

You call that "blue chip". I hate to see the worst.

[Cheswick2.0]

52. hey Devoir, we're going to socialize medicine

then the market can fuck itself

[Devoir]

63. Doesn't look like anytime soon, Cheswick.

Looks like we are going the opposite way, in fact.

[camero]

66. Ever heard of the term, "A horse kicks the hardest before it dies"

That is exactly what is happening to the health care system. Get ready for single-payer. The people are going to be screaming for it.

[smirkymonkey]

112. Touche!

n/t

[Cleita]

180. CEO and management talent?

If the sick aren't getting the care they need then there is no talent involved is there? Their talents lie in diverting health care dollars into profits not health care. Nobody needs them. Let them go rob the rich instead by selling them yachts.

[liberalhistorian]

182. Excellent point!

Too bad the CEO and executive management crowd are too busy counting their mega-gazillions to pay any attention.

[camero]

35. Oh great, you're a business man

Now I know where you get your views from. Of course, I know you just want to be left alone while your workers and customers get terrorized by the lack of morals.

[Devoir]

43. What's wrong with being a businessman?

And please dont insult the people who work for me or our customers. We treat them all very well because, in addition to being the right thing to do, it is also good business.

[camero]

47. yeah, right

I'm sure.

[camero]

48. Since you make your money off the backs of others

You have no appreciation of what they go through. Which explains why you post the way you do.

[Devoir]

49. No, I offer them a product for which they voluntarily pay

If I were offering a poor product with poor service, then they would go elsewhere. There is no exploitation as you seem to imply.

[camero]

53. You would never admit it.

But your posts speak for themselves.

[snippy]

60. Your post contains a false statement.

The false statement is this:

"our medical care is the best in the world"

You either have been misinformed or were being mendacious. There is no evidence that medical care in the US is superior to that in other developed countries. In fact, all the evidence is to the contrary. The US spends more per capita and as a percentage of GDP than other countries and has significantly worse healthcare. We do have the most profitable healthcare industry in the world, but it is not particularly good at providing healthcare.

[liberalhistorian]

61. AH, now THERE is the key,

"the most profitable system in the world." That, folks, says it all right there in those seven words. We are the only country in the world that considers profit over people in our health care system, and that views health care as a "business commodity" which should be treated as a profit-generator. And that's just plain wrong and sick, so to speak, and I'm so fucking tired of it!

[Devoir]

62. Where do world leaders go for their health care?

Where did King Hussein go? Where did the Shah go? Which country leads the world in technology? In medical research?

"The US spends more per capita and as a percentage of GDP than other countries and has significantly worse healthcare."

Prove your claim that the US has significantly worse healthcare.

[camero]

64. That was 50 years ago

When profit was not in health care. Hospitals shared the profit with each other. More RW talking points.

[Devoir]

69. Those mideastern twins who were separated at the skull?

Where'd they go to have that operation done? How long ago?

Please don't give me that shit about 'RW talking points' If you can contradict what I say, then provide some evidence.

[NightTrain]

71. I'm going to give Devoir the benefit of the doubt...

...and opine that it's quite possible that America has the finest health care system on the planet. Since I've never seen evidence either to the contrary or to support Devoir's opinion, I'm willing to take his word for it, at least for now.

But having said that....

What America needs to work on is its health care DELIVERY system, which currently denies decent, affordable health care to approximately 46 million of its citizens. To call that situation obscene would be a gross understatement, as I'm sure LH and her aunt and uncle would attest to.

[liberalhistorian]

76. Devoir, the issue isn't whether or not the

U.S. has the best health care, it's how it's able to DELIVER AND PROVIDE THAT CARE TO EVERYONE, NOT just those who have the money to afford it. If you're really sick in this country and you don't have either the best, most comprehensive insurance coverage (which few people, in reality, have), or are independently wealthy, you can forget getting the kind of care you really need.

And I've known more than enough people, and have worked with more than enough people, both through my work and volunteer activities to know the truth in that. And my minor was sociology, and I'm a paralegal, so I'm more than aware of all of these dynamics. Those who believe otherwise are usually those who don't have to worry about it, i.e., they have sufficient insurance or deep pockets or both.

[Devoir]

79. But is it right for everyone to get

the kind of care that the wealthy or well-insured can get? America is known for being able to achieve medical feats other places cannot. Often this is done at great expense. Is it really fair to expect others to pay the bill for this extraordinary care which is not availale anywhere else? It is like America has set the bar so high that we are expected to perform costly miracles for everybody.

[amazona]

81. what medical feats are these?

I am not aware of any treatments in the U.S. that cannot be had elsewhere. Many medical treatments were invented elsewhere. Hell, the first heart transplants were done in freakin' South Africa decades ago. The Russians did the first RKs in the freakin' 1940s. I had a friend, told she would be dead in 9 weeks of a cancer that couldn't be treated. She went to Mexico to a clinic to get a treatment that can't had here, and she lived in good health and was able to travel and visit all over the Gulf Coast and Texas for several more months. Another friend went to Thailand to have sex reassignment surgery. Oh, it could be had here, if she wanted to wait...and wait...and wait...for years on a waiting list. And so it goes. If it was easier for sick people to travel, I suspect that we'd see thundering herds of people exiting the U.S. to try their options.

You do know...It is a common complaint that a great many new drugs cannot be had in the U.S. and people have to order them from Europe and hope they get through customs. I haven't heard anyone claim that we have any drugs that they have to order from us, though. Hmm.

I think you have a very unrealistic idea of the state of medical care in the U.S. and the rest of the world. How can we be the best when we do not have as many options as people in some other parts of the world? The word "best" appears to have no meaning the way you are using it.

[liberalhistorian]

83. Is it fair for young children to die,

suffer needlessly, or be permanently disabled just because their parents didn't have enough insurance and money to get them the care they need and no one will treat them unless they could show that they could pay (whether you want to believe it or not, an awful lot of medical institutions will refuse to treat someone if they can't show that they have the ability to pay ALL of the costs)?

Is it fair for ANYONE to die or suffer needlessly or be put in the poorhouse because they don't have enough money or insurance to get the care they need? Is it fair that doctors here will treat foreign children for free and be lauded as heroes for that, when they refuse to do the same for American children?

What about that young child in Oregon with leukemia who died because the only thing that would have saved him was a bone marrow transplant and his state's (Oregon) Medicaid administration refused to even consider paying for it? Was that fair to needlessly allow his life to end because his mother didn't have enough of the fucking green stuff to keep the doctors and hospital CEO happy? Why is his life or any other person's life worth less and another person's life worth more just because they have money?

[Devoir]

87. My point is....people are not entitled to extraordinary or abnormally

expensive care. It is unfair to force others to pay for it.

My dad was relatively poor. He developed lung cancer, was offered very expensive (at the time) alternatives whose results would be uncertain. He decided the financial burden would be too great, so he spent his last days at home. Should my dad have been entitled to this 'over and above' treatment that others should have had to pay for? Of course not.

[liberalhistorian]

91. If your father worked hard all his life, like most people, and paid

his fair share of taxes, as most people do, then he, and the rest of them, are more than entitled to treatment and care that may save their life. And I have no problem paying for that, and I don't know anyone else who would have a problem with that either.

[Devoir]

103. Sure my father worked hard

but in no way could he have paid enough into the system for interferon treatments or lung transplants running into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[yankeedem]

114. So what your saying

Is a rich person has more of a right to survive than a poor person. Got it.


Life expectancy at birth:
http://www.who.int/whr/2002/en/whr2002_annex4.pdf

Note that 28 countries (oddly enough, all have socialized medicine) have a higher life expectancy than the U$A. Cuba is one of them. Since I am not a world leader, I have little interest in the care they get in the US. Stats like life expectancy and infant mortality mean lots more.

[liberalhistorian]

117. LOL,!

that appears to be exactly what he's saying, that those with money have the right to survive and those without, fuck 'em, never mind that most are hard workers. And their ill children? Fuck them, too, they should have had the intelligence to have been born to more well-off parents, you know!

[camero]

118. His own father, too

Is that sick, or what?

[Devoir]

123. Jesus

I swear to God, I am surrounded by idiots. I wonder how the fuck many times I have to say this. People do NOT have the right to expect others to foot the bill for extraordinarily expensive medical procedures. What if there was a procedure for an ailment that may or may not work that cost $10 million dollars? Should everyone who has that ailment be able to force others to pay such a staggering amount as that? Fuck no. We can expect normal routine procedures to help keep people alive. Fine.
Jesus Christ. Next you'll be saying that everyone should have a right to personal trainers and the services of an on-call professional chef to ensure 3 nutritious meals a day, because it is not fair that a certain privileged few can have them. Please, please make an effort to exercise some common fucking sense.

[Swede]

128. No but they should get life giving care

regardless whether they have money or not. Should everybody be forced to pay to buy 11 aircraft carriers just because they can't afford health care?

[Devoir]

129. Those who can't afford health care

aen't footing much of the bill for the aircraft carriers, either.
Straw comparison.

[NightTrain]

131. Bullshit!

I spent several years temping with no medical benefits, but every single week, the IRS got money from my paycheck. Considering how obscenely bloated America's so-called "defense" budget is, I've no doubt that some of my tax dollars helped foot the bill for the Pentagon.

[Devoir]

133. Some of it did, sure

but not nearly as much as a rich man's

[Swede]

134. But but that's socialized defense

Your a dirty commie

[liberalhistorian]

136. Touche!

GREAT POINT! I was just about to say the same thing. Isn't it amazing that these people who scream and rant and rave and rail against "socialism" also don't see the irony in the fact that our military is, basically, socialism in that EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO WORKS in this country pays into it, no matter what?

Oh, they'll say, but everyone benefits from a strong military, so that's not really the same thing and it's fair for everyone to pay into it.

Well, I say that everyone benefits, in almost every aspect, when their fellow citizens are healthy and receive the care they need, from lowered costs to businesses, to more productivity, to more productive and contributing citizens and children, etc., etc., etc. But no, that's considered "socialism", when our military isn't! Go figure!!!!

[camero]

145. So is Social Security

Which when it comes time to collect, he'll have his hand out. And don't let him say "Well, he paid into it." The system is pay-as-you-go funded by the younger generation. He'll get more back than he paid into it.

[Dogmudgeon]

101. Forcing the poor hospitals to pay?

Yes.

It's also "unfair" to force people to pay for the cost of developing medical treatments at universities and THEN allowing the patents to be bought at fire-sale prices by the major pharmaceutical companies.

And that's just one SINGLE example of Medical Socialism For The Rich.

The "Free-Enterprise" arguments won't work here. Many of us have been Free-Enterprised into the poorhouse and close to death.

And yes, many of us have been, and still are, self-employed.

Wasn't it Ayn Rand who coined the phrase "Life qua life" ... ?

--bkl

A Letter to Garcia
Dear Garcia:
You suck.
Love-n-kisses,
BKL

[liberalhistorian]

105. Excellent points,

thanks! And I like that, Medical Socialism for the Rich!

[amazona]

80. evidence

The WHO recently developed a measure of healthy longevity called DALE - disability adjusted life expectancy -- summarizes the expected number of years to be lived in what might be termed the equivalent of "full health." To calculate DALE, the years of ill-health are weighted according to severity and subtracted from the expected overall life expectancy to give the equivalent years of healthy life.

Japan, with a disability adjusted life expectancy of 74.5 years, came out on top. The other 10 nations were: Australia, 73.2 years; France, 73.1; Sweden, 73.0; Spain, 72.8; Italy, 72.7; Greece, 72.5; Switzerland, 72.5; Monaco, 72.4; and Andorra, 72.3.

The U.S. is 24th -- pretty far down on the list.

"The position of the United States is one of the major surprises of the new rating system," says Christopher Murray, M.D., Ph.D., Director of WHO's Global Programme on Evidence for Health Policy. "Basically, you die earlier and spend more time disabled if you’re an American rather than a member of most other advanced countries."

They offered several speculations as to the cause of this, putting the poor quality of the U.S. health care system in many areas number one on the list. "In the United States, some groups, such as Native Americans, rural African Americans and the inner city poor, have extremely poor health, more characteristic of a poor developing country rather than a rich industrialized one."

http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-life.html

By the way, they do try to put some of the blame on lifestyle issues, but if we are to honestly believe that folks in France and Italy smoke and drink less than Americans...well...all I can say is, tell me another.

Call me odd but I prefer statistics rather than appeals to celebrity or publicity stunts which have no relevance to the availability of treatment for you and me.

[Devoir]

82. Funny...article mentions NOTHING about US health care being

a factor in our placement: It just says that certain groups have poor health. (I'd say it's probably due to smoking, poor nutrition, or drugs in those groups.) Sounds like you fabricated a teeny weeny white lie here. Please don't do that. We find it insulting.

From your article:

"The WHO cites various causes for why the United States ranks relatively low among wealthy nations. These reasons include:

In the United States, some groups, such as Native Americans, rural African Americans and the inner city poor, have extremely poor health, more characteristic of a poor developing country rather than a rich industrialized one.
The HIV epidemic causes a higher proportion of death and disability to U.S. young and middle-aged than in most other advanced countries. HIV-AIDS cut three months from the healthy life expectancy of male American babies born in 1999, and one month from female lives;
The U.S. is one of the leading countries for cancers relating to tobacco, especially lung cancer Tobacco use also causes chronic lung disease.
A high coronary heart disease rate, which has dropped in recent years but remains high;
Fairly high levels of violence, especially of homicides, when compared to other industrial countries."

[liberalhistorian]

86. Then why is the U.S.

24th on the list??? That is absolutely unacceptable for the richest country on earth. And the factors you ascribe to the groups they talk about are bullshit. The main factor is a horrible lack of access to even basic health care in these groups, and not very good health care when they do manage to get it. Any doctor worth his or her salt will tell you the same thing. Underfunded, underequipped, free clinics with severe staffing shortages and overworked, underpaid staff and badly overworked doctors and nurses are the norm in these groups. And just try getting into someplace like the Cleveland Clinic if you don't have money and insurance, it's almost impossible.

[camero]

89. I'm fast learning

That this person is a BS artist.

[Devoir]

93. The article says NOTHING about US healthcare!!!

It DOES cites reasons such as coronary heart disease, tobacco use, even homicides. ALL of these factors are lifestyle related. Please READ the article that was so generously provided:

"The WHO cites various causes for why the United States ranks relatively low among wealthy nations. These reasons include:

In the United States, some groups, such as Native Americans, rural African Americans and the inner city poor, have extremely poor health, more characteristic of a poor developing country rather than a rich industrialized one.
The HIV epidemic causes a higher proportion of death and disability to U.S. young and middle-aged than in most other advanced countries. HIV-AIDS cut three months from the healthy life expectancy of male American babies born in 1999, and one month from female lives;
The U.S. is one of the leading countries for cancers relating to tobacco, especially lung cancer Tobacco use also causes chronic lung disease.
A high coronary heart disease rate, which has dropped in recent years but remains high;
Fairly high levels of violence, especially of homicides, when compared to other industrial countries."

[camero]

95. It says EVERYTHING about US health care

Studies have shown that lack of access to health care has been a factor in more disability and premature death. Those populations have less access to health care because they have less MONEY.

[Devoir]

102. Paste a passage that mentions 'US Heathcare' from Amazona's article

This thread is so reminiscent of my thread last week on giving cash to beggars (325 posts...like 2nd all-time) where someone would post a source that made my case for me.

[camero]

104. ok

The United States rated 24th under this system, or an average of 70.0 years of healthy life for babies born in 1999.

Sweden ranks high because of its health care system.

There's two for comparison.

[northzax]

108. ok, and to play devil's advocate

in 1998, the United States was the victim of 18,272 Homicides (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvs48_11.pdf) only 5.5% of those victims were over the age of 65 (average 1990-200, US BOJ (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm) and 76.4% of them were male (ibid) so, you can easily extrapolate the informaiton that roughly 13205 males failed to reach the average life expentancy in 1998 due to homicide. That's gotta pull the numbers down a month or two, huh? If the 20,000 AIDS deaths the same year took 3 months away from the average boy born then, homicide can be expected to take another 1.5 months. And then you have the other side of the homicide stats, the murderers, who along with drug offenders, tend to serve long jail sentences, which, although I don't ahve the numbers in front of me, can certainly be expected to knock some time off of one's life expectancy (not a lot of 100 year olds in jail, eh?) the US has (according to the DoJ http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm) at year end, 2002, 1,343,164 males were held in US jails, that's well over one percent of the adult population.
And for one more thing, there were, according to the National Highway Safety administration, http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa/tsf-1998.pdf 41,471 traffic fataliitis in the US in 1998, and 3.1 million injuries. a rate of 1/6030 Americans.

Meanwhile, in Sewden, only 4000 people, of both sexes, are incarcerated at any given time ( http://justitie.regeringen.se/pressinfo/pdf/prison.pdf) given a population of 8.9 million, that amounts to .04 percent of the population. as for homicides, there were only 118 in 1998, a rate of 13.3/million, compared t othe US's 75/million. (full diusclosure, Sweden has a slightly higher suicide rate than the US, so that balances it out a bit) http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/pdf_files/understanding_files/19_GUN%20OWNERSHIP.pdf
And, accor ding to Sweden's National Society for Road Safety http://www.ntf.se/engl/rapp99.htm, there were 540 traffic fatalities in 1997. a rate of 1/16,481 Swedes.


Now, given the above numbers detailing the ways in which Americans die, from non-health care related causes, at a much faster rate, much younger than Swedes, you can't really blame the US health care system for the entirety of the difference between our respective life expectancies, can you?

[camero]

113. What about 90,000 deaths a year

from medication and diagnosis errors. That also would pull down the numbers a bit.

It's not the end all and be all but it certainly is a problem.

Combined with the fact that it has been proven that people who are uninsured face more disability and lower life expectancy, neither of which were mentioned in the article, most likely for good reason.

Doctors are notorious for not admitting mistakes. And doctors give less care to people who are uninsured.

Your post implies we need more gun control, but then Devoir would be against that too.

[Devoir]

124. Gotta love it

LOLOLOLOL

[Name removed]

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[camero]

154. oh yes it does

it says we are way down the list as far as health care is concerned and people live longer in countries with better health care systems.

The use of hyperbole will get you nowhere.

[Devoir]

157. Paste the direct quote where it says that

Let's see it.

[Name removed]

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[liberalhistorian]

167. I seem to recall that it

DID mention the U.S. health care system, you just didn't like what it had to say. I think your "selective" reading is more of an insult to this forum's readers than anything else.

[Devoir]

174. Fine. Paste me a quote

that mentions the US health care system from the link. That should be a simple task.....if it's there. Camero couldn't do it. Let's see how you do.

[liberalhistorian]

168. I'm really starting to wonder that

myself. Devoir, are you sure you consider yourself to be anything remotely resembling a Democrat/liberal/progressive?

[camero]

173. I had to put him on ignore

It's like talking to a brick wall.

[Devoir]

176. All I asked for

was a direct quote to back up your namecalling. You couldn't provide one.

[Devoir]

175. Of course I am or I wouldn't be here

Now could you tell us why your notions on health coverage by employers lack even a grain of common sense?

[NightTrain]

181. I used to work for the Connecticut Primary Care Association...

...a non-profit dedicated to getting decent, affordable health care to those at the bottom of the heap of our so-called "affluent society." I spent a lot of time at the various community health clinics in and around Hartford, and can attest to the accuracy of LH's description of the working conditions in those places.

The staffers I met at those clinics were dedicated, hardworking, and passionate about what they did. And it frustrated them to no end that they were unable to do more for their patients, for the reasons LH outlined and because of other factors, most of which came down to money--or rather, the lack of it.

Things got even worse when 36% of those in Connecticut who bothered to vote in the 1994 election gave my state its first Republican governor in about 20 years, John Rowland. Considering that Rowland is still the governor, I can well imagine that the situation for the CPCA and its affiliated clinics is considerably worse now than it was when I left my job eight years ago.

[liberalhistorian]

183. Truly sickening and

vomit-inducing that money, profits, and the bottom line are the only things the health care system gives a damn about, isn't it? Profit should be the LAST thing involved when people's lives and health are at stake.

[bleedingheart]

28. I remember my first job with very poor health insurance

I got a lymphatic infection and had to pay 20% of the bill which was a lot for my small salary at the time.

I payed $25 a month towards the bill until it was paid in full....however the office personnel were incredibly rude to me even though I was paying them.

Years later I worked in the medical industry and what did I find...a lot of those same people who are rude to others about their bills are uninsured and working for a little bit more than minimum wage. Most companies I knew did not have policies about being mean..they just wanted the phone call or bill to go ... but the rude behavior was some sort of bizarre extra that came along...as if those individuals got a "high" out of torturing people that were no different than themselves.... Luckily most of the people I met were very nice but those that were not were just hard for me to understand..

[NightTrain]

29. By sheer coincidence, I just came across this quote

It's from the novel I'm currently reading, "Only Child" by Andrew Vachss, published in 2002:

"This is an ugly country to be poor in. Worse if you're sick. And if you're old, you can ratchet that up a few notches more."

[liberalhistorian]

31. Ain't that the truth,

thanks, Dean!

[Devoir]

44. I'd rather be those things while living in America

than any other place.

[liberalhistorian]

54. Well, then, have at it pal,

because you've obviously never been any of those things in this country. I have been poor and sick, and I have watched others be the same, and it's more than a nightmare, it just makes you want to die. In what other industrialized country will you be treated like a criminal because you don't have money, even if you do work hard, or could you lose your house and everything you've worked for because you or a family member had the nerve to become ill?

[Devoir]

65. In which country do you feel like you'd have a better deal

than here?

[camero]

67. Canada, Sweden

:P

[Devoir]

70. Camero has the solution to your problem, LH

Canada or Sweden.

[camero]

72. And I have the solution to YOUR problem

Iraq

[Devoir]

74. Let me think.....

Did that make a bit of sense?.....Hmm

[camero]

77. Take your crony capitalist butt there

:crazy:

[Devoir]

90. OMG

Somebody might be a (gasp) CAPITALIST?

[camero]

96. Your kind is destroying the planet

and us humans.

[yankeedem]

115. Why?

Iraq has socialized medicine now, courtesy of the US taxpayer.

[camero]

116. LOL

Maybe he'll find out what the system is like and tell someone besides us his RW talking points.

[liberalhistorian]

78. Canada, England, Sweden, Norway,

Switzerland, the Netherlands. They actually give a damn if ALL of their citizens have access to health care, education, etc., etc., not just the wealthy ones, and they don't equate help with money.

In other words, they don't consider your life not worth trying to save just because you don't have money.

In other words, you don't have to worry about losing your house, your savings, your retirement pensions, and anything else you have just because you or a family member had the nerve to become ill.

[Devoir]

84. Why not take

your uncle a few miles north to Canada to get a better deal?

[Devoir]

85. BTW....

Somebody's doing the paying in those countries, so it's hardly free.

[liberalhistorian]

88. It may not be "free" in the sense that

we think of that word, but it's free in the sense that people don't have to worry about dealing with insurance company bureacracy and bean counters who don't know shit making all your medical treatment decisions, they don't have to worry about whether or not they'll be able to afford needed care and/or treatment without losing everything they've worked so hard for, they don't have to worry about being hounded and harassed by medical collection agencies who will think nothing of putting liens on their homes, bank accounts, any other assets, they don't have to worry about losing their savings and retirement pensions to hospitals and doctors, they don't have to be terrified of getting sick because they're uninsured or underinsured, etc., etc., etc. They may pay a uniform tax for it, but every single Canadian I've ever known, and I do mean EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, say it's more than worth it and it's a damn good system.

[camero]

92. I've talked about it to businessmen in Canada

And even they were shocked at what our health care system is like.

[liberalhistorian]

94. That's probably because they don't have the

burden of shouldering health care costs the way that American businesses do, we're one of the few countries that ties health insurance and health care to employment. Health care costs are and have been the downfall or bane of many an American business, particularly small businesses. And it's only getting much worse.

[camero]

97. I know

You should have been there for that conversation. All the lost time and productivity because a person can't get access to a doctor.

And he was proud of his health care system.

[liberalhistorian]

119. Interesting. Notice how our

very own businessman is totally silent on that aspect of having a single-payer system with universal, comprehensive coverage, the fact that businesses would be relieved of what is to them, now, a tremendous financial burden, providing health insurance.

[camero]

120. he more than likely doesn't even offer insurance

No costs for him. It sounds like the "I got mine" attitude that you stated in another post.

[liberalhistorian]

121. Yeah, probably.

But I'm sure he has his own insurance, though.

[camero]

122. Oh, yes

I'm almost sure of that.

[Name removed]

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[Devoir]

135. Me? Oh I don't provide heathcare

I think my employees are smart enough to shop for their own healthcare plan, so I pay them well and they in turn use some of that money to get the very best plan they can. It's worked very well so far. A majority have been with me all 13 years I've been in business.
But I am sure they appreciate your concern.

[liberalhistorian]

139. Then I hope you pay them well enough

to afford the astronomical monthly premiums of even limited plans, because I sure couldn't afford it on my own and I have two degrees! What is your business, if you don't mind my asking?

[Devoir]

141. They obviously think so

or they wouldn't be working with me today. (Gee, I guess Wal-Mart could say the same thing about their employees, BTW). I am in real estate developing. I have five kids. We pay $550/month on our plan. Others with smaller families can do it for less. But the reality is, I don't OWE my employees health insurance any more than I owe them car insurance. You just pay them an amount, and if they decide it's worth it, they'll stay with you.

[camero]

143. He's a developer

An occupation which is on a par with a used car salesman. A land shark.

[Devoir]

150. The marketplace respects what I do

because it rewards me handsomely. My customers respect me because they recommend me to others. As to what DU Camero thinks as he whiles away the day in front of his screen in his studio apartment......I could give a shit.

[Name removed]

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[Devoir]

158. Yeah

We should all be fucking berry-gatherers in your ideal world. Is that it? Tell us what you do for a living, BTW, ace

[camero]

160. How about this?

None of your fuckin business.

[Name removed]

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[liberalhistorian]

170. If the marketplace truly rewarded

workers in accordance with the importance of what they did, then teachers, police officers, firefighters, and social workers would be making a helluva lot more than those whiny spoiled brats who make megamillions kicking a ball, hitting a ball with a bat, or chasing a ball down a court and throwing it through a basket.

[liberalhistorian]

146. ROFLMAO!

"If they decide it's worth it, they'll stay with you", hoo boy, that's a good one. Most people stay in jobs because they can't find another one, not because they're being paid what they're worth. I'm a paralegal with a B.A. AND a paralegal certificate, and I should be making a lot more than just $25,900 a year. God knows, I certainly work more than hard enough.

I desperately need a better-paying job, especially since I'm a single parent, but I'm just not gonna find it around here the way the market currently is. And all of my friends and family and my son's friends and family are here, so I can't just uproot everything and move, even if there were jobs available elsewhere. $550 is more than half of an entire paycheck for me, God help me if I had to pay the full premium of my insurance instead of the $100 a month co-pay coming out of my check.

And you may not feel employers "owe" health insurance, but that is, unfortunately, the way the system developed after WWII, and most plans are far too expensive for people to get on their own.

[Devoir]

149. LOL...A couple of questions, then

"Most people stay in jobs because they can't find another one, not because they're being paid what they're worth."

1) So where would those people be if you weren't employing them at all? Unemployed?
2) If people are 'worth' an amount, that is a reflection of what their services could command in the marketplace. If you aren't making what the market would pay, then the question is: Why are you accepting a lower wage than others would pay? Who's fault is it? And who is forcing you to stay?

Since you are placing limitations on yourself, such as not moving to a better-paying location, then you ought to be damn grateful to your employer for hiring you, because otherwise you'd be in even worse straits. As I always tell my kids: Either make your situation better or quit bellyaching about it.

[liberalhistorian]

151. If you had bothered to read my whole post,

you'd note that I said that I couldn't move to a "better-paying location" right now, because I'm a single parent and all of our family and friends are here. I cannot just uproot him from everything and everyone he's known all of his life, that would be wrong and selfish, not to mention very detrimental to him.

And jobs don't always pay what they're actually worth, especially areas which are saturated with skilled, competent workers. In that case, it's an employer's market! But then again, when's the last time YOU had to look for a job, so how would you know any of this?

[Devoir]

155. I read it.

"And jobs don't always pay what they're actually worth, especially areas which are saturated with skilled, competent workers. In that case, it's an employer's market! But then again, when's the last time YOU had to look for a job, so how would you know any of this?"

If you make what the market pays in an area, then you are making what you are worth in that area. If you refuse to move for whatever reason, then it is YOUR decision and not the fault of your employer for making you miserable.
The last time I needed a job, I took the initiative to start a company. Now I provide the jobs. Stop setting all these limitations on yourself OR stop complaining

[Name removed]

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[Devoir]

164. Seems like

you're the one getting posts deleted for profanity all because you've been busted. Clearly a violation of TOS. lol.

[camero]

165. no profanity in the title of a thread

so what?

[liberalhistorian]

169. I AM NOT THE ONE SETTING

LIMITATIONS ON MYSELF, THE MARKET IS!!!! I have a B.A. AND a paralegal certificate AND over eight years of experience, so don't dare tell me I don't deserve more than what I'm getting!

[Devoir]

179. Tell me why you deserve more

than you are getting if you won't do what it takes to get it. If I make $100,000 a year here selling houses, but I could make $500,000 a year selling houses in San Francisco, should I bitch about being underpaid because I refused to move?

[camero]

142. I knew it

NOw we know why he posts like he does.

[kcwayne]

33. Do we have the right to expect healthcare?

Your post touches on a point I have been thinking about alot lately.

Like many boomers in their 50's, my retirement nest egg has been decimated in the stock market, and I don't have good prospects for generating passive income upon retirement. If the Republican agenda continues to be implemented I expect that by the time I retire that medicare will be privitized and I will not be able to live on whatever is left of the social security program. With interest rates hovering around 1% on savings accounts, I will not be able to generate enough income from my savings to pay taxes on my house, let alone pay for food, clothing, and health care.

The best thing that can happen to my family is that I die before I can no longer afford to pay for my term life insurance, and that I die without the medical vultures loading us up with debt and destroying my wife's ability to have some economic security in her "golden" years.

While the medical community would like to farm my future health misfortunes for maximized profits, I will not accept treatment that is not affordable. I think that after paying taxes for 40 years, I have a right to expect better in my old age. But I believe this right is non-actionable given the state of our society, the course of government, and the singular profit motive of medical care in this country. Its wrong, but here we are.

I remember when I was 14 I went to a family practioner for a school sports physical. The doctor had emigrated from someplace in Europe. I went to pay for the service and he asked me repeatedly not to pay if I could not afford it. Can you imagine such an event occurring today?

[NightTrain]

99. Health care is a right, not a privilege

Most civilized countries understand that and make sure their governments do something about it. But not America; the people are too goddamned brainwashed!

[liberalhistorian]

106. That's so true, all a politician

or anyone else with power has to do is say the words "socialized medicine", even though that is NOT the way it would be, and people run screaming for the door, even those who recognize and agree with the desperate need to "so something" about health care.

[northzax]

111. exactly how much, and what level of health care is a right?

can you explain it to me? do humans have the right to have a doctor examine them once a yer? a right to dental care? dermatology? psychiatry? podiatry? cosmetic surgery? a second liver transplant, after destroying the first two with booze? experimental surgery for an extemely rare disease? experimental drug therapy? Viagra? boob implants? dentures? braces? teeth whitening? hair transplants? laser eye surgery? laser hair removal? sex changes (fine, 'corrections') all of that is 'healthcare' how much of it is a basic right? and how much a priviledge? until you can tell me tha, you have no business claiming health care as a 'right'

[Devoir]

126. You got it!

I don't think it occurs to some that they are asking other human beings to foot the bill unconditionally with no boundaries, and if people ask questions, then they are, well, rich selfish bastards.

[liberalhistorian]

137. NOW who's twisting words?

No one said anything at all about unconditional, no-boundaries care, for God's sake, not even the countries that have guaranteed health care have that, nor should they!

[Devoir]

140. Now we are getting somewhere

OK. Tell us to what extent people should be covered since you have taken the occasion to blast me and my father for not believing taxpayers should pay for highly expensive cancer treatment. YOU tell us what the parameters should be. (My guess is you won't)

[liberalhistorian]

147. It should be necessary, basic

care, including regular cancer treatments, emergency room care (broken bones, heart attacks, etc.), preventive care (which saves so much more money in the long run) necessary accessories such as glasses and hearing aids and prosthetics, and care for those with chronic/serious illnesses, things like that.

Not, obviously, for cosmetic, elective, or medically unneccesary things like cosmetic plastic surgery, breast implants, viagra, etc., etc.

[Devoir]

152. Certain types of care you mention

can be prohibitively expensive. What is a sick person needs an organ transplant costing hundreds of thousands of dollars? Should others have to pay for it? You've left yourself a hole you could drive a truck through. Intentionally, no doubt.

[liberalhistorian]

172. You know, I'm getting a little tired of your

"faint" put-downs that seem to go unnoticed by the moderators, for some ungodly, unfathomable reason. The list I gave was just BASIC, it would, of course, need an awful lot of fine-tuning.

And if it was YOUR child or wife who needed that transplant, I'm sure I wouldn't hear too much complaining from you at all. And why in the hell should a child with wealthy parents live because their parents have money when the child of middle class or poorer parents, who may work just as hard or even harder as those with money, isn't given a chance because they weren't smart enough to have been born to the "right" parents? Once again, you're equating the moral worth of someone's life with how much money they have, and that is not only immoral and disgusting, it's just plain WRONG!

[Devoir]

177. So you're saying we should make everyone equal?

You are basically saying whatever the rich can afford should be given to everyone. That sounds wonderful. Tell me something. Who's going to pay for all that?

[Devoir]

153. Certain types of care you mention

can be prohibitively expensive. What is a sick person needs an organ transplant costing hundreds of thousands of dollars? Should others have to pay for it? You've left yourself a hole you could drive a truck through. Intentionally, no doubt.

[camero]

36. I've been through the collection mill too

And the lady said the next time I was in the hospital and was near death, that they were going to let me die. I said, "You'll never see me near a hospital again. I'll die at home, thank you."

The bill for one nights stay being treated for ketoacidosis was $3,000. They tried to charge me $32 for a pack of hearing aid batteries that cost $5 in the pharmacy.

Unbleepin real. And they deliberately ran tests that didn't need to be run so they could up the bill.

[Swede]

41. You DUers in America should not have to worry about this.

I live in Canada and medical bills don't exist here. You have the largest richest economy on earth,something is really wrong with the system.

[JCMach1]

46. You are right about that... as an expat American

The only insurance I pay for is International protection while I am out of the country (read in the U.S.). That amounts to about $100 per year.

85% of all prescriptions are payed and this includes over the counter medications which have a Dr.'s prescription.

My daughter had the flu last week and I paid about 7$ for medications.

[dsc]

42. Several things

First, there are some programs in Ohio which may help you. One is that you can spend down to get on to Medicaid. Given the expenses you are talking about they should easily make that. It is a month by month determination and you will have to pay quite a bit out of pocket before it will kick in. My parents had to spend down to just under $400 a month (with a rent of over $300 and no real assets) to qualify. That isn't great but for you may be a help.

Second, if there is danger of your uncle being put in a nursing home he may qualify for Passport. This gives you medicaid with no spend down and doesn't include the wife's income. This sounds less likely for you now given the fact he still can work to some degree but it may work later.

PM me and I will give you details.

Third, be careful with bankrupcy. If you owe on a car and you for some reason can't pay that bill Ohio have a very low limit on what a car can be worth ($2000). Or if you own it outright but used a home equity loan to get it then you are in the same boat if you decide to file on the equity loan. After that they will make you pay for the car. IE if your car is valued at $8000 you have to pay $6000. This happened to my parents and it sucked. In any case good luck.

[bratcatinok]

45. You said HMO

and I'm wondering whether that's through one of their employers? I ask because many companies have departments in human resources which can help negotiate with the HMO.

My ex-husband had chronic lymphocytic leukemia and I carried him on my insurance which was an HMO. He was having a very bad go of it at the time with transfusions every other day, chemo and the like. His oncologist wanted to put him into a study to see if a particular therapy would help him. Because the therapy hadn't been approved on the HMO's formulary for leukemia they refused to cover it. I contacted my company representative, they contacted the HMO and the HMO ended up agreeing to pay for 4 out of 6 treatments. The other 2 treatments were paid for by my (then) husband's oncologist as he wanted to be a part of the study.

If the insurance is an employee benefit and is being subsidized by the employer, the company has a vested interest in making sure the HMO honors the terms of the contract with the company.

We eventually had to declare bankruptcy but it wasn't because of medical bills but due to my husband being self employed and unable to work. I feel for your Aunt since I remember receiving hateful telephone calls from creditors who didn't care my husband was in the hospital and that I was doing the best I could.

As a side note, the study did find the therapy was useful for treatment of leukemia and is now an accepted form of treatment.

[liberalhistorian]

55. No, they don't care, all they care

about is getting their commission from whatever they're able to squeeze from you. THAT is what they REALLY mean when they say "it's very important/urgent that you return my call", when they leave messages.

[SoCalDem]

50. Could she "sell" her house to a family member

and then "rent" it back??

How about getting her a prepaid cell phone ,with a new number, and then just disconnect the other phone that all the creditors have??

I think her pension is protected.. (My friend declared bankruptcy and her IRA was secure)..

I would advise getting her some legal help..

Years ago, wehn my uncle got very ill, my cousin & her husband "bought" their house to protect it from creditors..(she would have inherited it anyway, being an only child)..

Best wishes to them both..:( It sounds like they are in for a rough time..

[Cheswick2.0]

51. get her caller ID and an answering nachine

tell her not to answer any calls that do not ID themselves on the caller ID. Then she can screen the calls witht he answering machine. If someone is leaving a message and she wants to talk to that party she can do so.

[catmandu57]

56. It's a goddamn shame that it's better to die quickly

than to recieve care and comfort when it's needed the most, because it's going to cost too damn much to keep breathing. If I could every person in this country would never know what a medical bill was, and the only reason a collection agency could call was if you went nuts with credit.
These are bottom feeding heartless scumsuckers, if we lined every damn one of them up against a wall and summarily executed them it wouldn't break my heart at all.
And our trolling business man could go with them, fucking scumbag. I'm sorry to hear of your relatives troubles LH, the only thing I can say is get an answering machine and caller id.

[liberalhistorian]

57. Wow!

What a great rant, couldn't have said it better myself!!!

[Interrobang]

98. This is so sad...the same story, over and over...

Argh, I swear if I hear one more agonizing story about Americans being fucked over by HMOs and insurance companies over bills, I will go mad from prolapsed compassion! I could already be an "OHIP bigamist" if only I could get the paperwork in order! ;-)

There's a study published in the CMAJ about how private, for-profit hospitals have significantly higher mortality rates than not-for-profits, with a sample population of "more than 26 000 hospitals and 38 million patients." You can see the paper, "A systematic review and meta-analysis of studies comparing mortality rates of private for-profit and private not-for-profit hospitals," Devereaux, et al at: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/166/11/1399

Even I've had to deal with this. Once, when I was in Pennsylvania, I sustained a splinter to a sensitive part of my anatomy. Since there was about 2cm of wood embedded in my flesh, I had to go to the hospital to have it removed. Not only did I have to harrass my travellers' insurance company to get the bill paid, but I also found a remaining sliver of wood in my buttock a whole month later. I was not amused. And don't even get me started on what's going on with my New Yorker fiance since someone dropped a huge shoulder-mounted tv camera on his head...aiiiieeee!!

[Dogmudgeon]

100. The one that pushes Intrrobang over the edge

Yo.

Chronic medical problems here. My credit has been in the toilet since I was 18 years old, in 1976.

In addition, I'm being dunned for $7000 for a colonoscopy that had been approved by my "insurance" company. Of course, now they claim I was never insured. But the joke's on them -- I'm an unemployed computer geek. I politely told them to contact the company in India for the information.

Unfortunately, you have to have a good job to emigrate to Canada, but once that's solved, I'm going to take a serious interest in the land of the Big Old Honkin' Red Maple Leaf. One more prolonged episode of unemployment without health care, and I'll be out of here. And I don't mean to Canada.

"Land of the Free" (so-called), my (so-called) Free-Enterprise-hating, Personal-Responsibility™-shirking, poor-Work-Ethic ass!

--bkl
Dockter, I think I've come down with a mild case of SOCIALISM.

[liberalhistorian]

107. That's one of my sorest points

with our so-called health "care" system, the fact that people can have their credit ruined because of chronic or serious illnesses, that's just plain bullshit and WRONG!!!! In no other advanced country do they have to worry about that.

And as for Canada, I've already begun laying the groundwork for immigration there, especially if we're unsuccessful in the election next year, which would, I believe, be the real downfall of this country. I've taken the Skilled Worker Immigrant on-line test just to see how I'd do, and I did well. I'm a paralegal who also has a college degree, and there are many, many areas I could get a job in.

[Parche]

109. collectors

I dont give them the time of day, if they happen to call
they ask for my name, and I always ask, who is this, and from
what company, then they say who they are most of the time
some like to play the game , and I say yes this is
and they say they are from some company and what are you going
to do about a bill, Then I always tell them its none of their
F..In business and either hang up or piss them off.

[liberalhistorian]

110. LOL!

That's the way to do it! What I REALLY hate is when they leave messages, they'll say, "this is Nikki Hayes, or Mary Louise Jones", and nothing else, like they're some great friend of yours or something.

I usually send a written request telling them not to contact me by phone anymore, by law, in accordance with the Fair Debt Collection Act, they must comply and only communicate with you by mail from then on.

These people make their tons of money off of the misery and misfortune of others, and it makes me literally sick.

[kayleybeth]

130. Hard to believe

that anyone who is even REMOTELY progressive would side with the HMOs and the bill collectors on this one. If you can't afford medical care, you shouldn't be allowed to live? Please.

My heart goes out to your aunt and uncle, LH. I hope things get better for them soon.

[liberalhistorian]

138. Thanks, and I totally

agree! I've found that the people who are on the side of the HMO's and the collectors and against any kind of guaranteed health care are usually those who don't have to worry about it anyway, i.e., they have excellent insurance, deep pockets, or both.

[Cleita]

178. My sympathy with your plight.

I'm collecting stories of people's problems with our health system. I hope you don't mind that I downloaded yours. I don't know yet what I am going to do with them, maybe put them on a website. I don't know yet, but I will let you know if I do something like that.