The Zodiac Killer

[Zuni]

I just finished reading Robert Graysmith's second book on the Zodiac Killer (Zodiac I, the California killer not the New York killer, Zodiac II). He lays out a very convincing case that the man who killed 5 people, wounded several and most likely killed 3 more in Southern California was a convicted child molester named Robert Leigh Allen.(he might have killed more than that, but he killed at least 5, most likely 8---3 in Southern California before his 1968-1969 spree) There is strong circumstantial evidence tying him to the crimes--he wore a Zodiac wristwatch that had the killer's cross in a circle emblem, his favorite film was the Most Dangerous Game, which the killer quoted several times in his letters. He had a strong attachment to water, and the Zodiac always killed near water or in areas named after bodies of water. He lived in Vallejo, which was the location of several of the murders. He also allegedly told a friend in 1968 that he was going to hunt people and call himself Zodiac. He apparently was seen with a bloody knife on the day of the Lake Berrysea killings, but claimed he was hunting. He also matches the physical description of the killer and his bedroom was filled with press clippings about the case.
His sister in law said he showed her pages of code that looked exactly like the Zodiac's cryptograms he mailed to the newspaper. One of the victims, Darlene Ferrin, apparently knew him and was scared of him. She often complained about a fat, balding man named Lee (Allen often went by his middle name, Leigh which is pronounced Lee)
There is much more to this than what I listed off the top of my head, but this guy was considered to be the top suspect by many of the investigators. Allen could be tied to most of the murders. He also claimed to be Zodiac and denied it.
But when Allen was in a mental hospital in the mid-70s, all the Zodiac letters stopped. Before they were regular and taunting.

[RandomKoolzip]

1. Dude, I'm totally obsessed with the Zodiac.

Apparently Graysmith is a big fat liar, though. The two main sites I visit every day are DU and www.zodiackiller.com and over there, Tom Voigt has just about the most extensive collection of info on this subject I can imagine.

Leigh Allen is indeed the best suspect, but his guilt rests on a TON of circumstantial evidence and not a single shred of proof (no DNA match, no fingerprint match, nothin') and my vote for the other best suspect in the case is Bill Grant, referred to as Andy Walker in Graysmith's "Zodiac," the book he put out before "Unmasked." This case still isn't solved, and a lot of that is due to infighting between Jurisdictions of the Cali Police in the late 60's.

So weird somebody would bring this up. Seriously, go to that site, but beware....you may become obsessed....

[Shakespeare]

3. Have you read "Times 17" by Gareth Penn?

A really fascinating book (if you have an interest in mathematics) that suggests Michael O'Hare is the killer.

I don't know if I buy it or not, but it's a great theory.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/SuspectOHare.html

[RandomKoolzip]

4. No, I've never been able to find it.

And from what I've read, the people over at zodiackiller.com rip Penn's theories to shreds with th simplest of empirical evidence. I'd love to read it someday, but I doubt I'd believe a word of it!

Apparently Penn himself was considered as a suspect for a time; zodiackiller.com poster Alan Cabal does a great job dismembering Penn's theories as well as painting him and O'Hare as "possible" cohorts. Who knows? O'hare is my least favorite suspect, though. Very interesting writer, but as a suspect...nah.

[Shakespeare]

5. I saw the TLC show on it....

And that's how I became aware of Penn's book. I picked it up for a reasonable price (used) from Powell's Books--it's pretty easy to find second-hand.

I'd love to see the Learning Channel's show on the Zodiac again; it was really, really interesting.

[Zuni]

8. Dude, which one are you on the Zodiac board?

I am going to register.

[RandomKoolzip]

10. I don't post, since I have no real info to offer.

But I am an OBSESSED reader of the posters over there! The guys to pay attention to are Tom Voigt (of course), Peterh, Sandy (she's kinda incomprehensible, but has a lot of strange inside info on the case), Alan Cabal (A very witty satanist), and William Baker (a cop who worked on the case). Be careful though, a lot of the board members are virulient republicans. Don't get into political convos over there!

Yes, sad to say, but I'm a mere troll there. But Voigt's site and DU are the only websites I'd ever doante money to. I don't have nearly enough goodies to share with the rest of the cast at zodiackiller.com, but I go there EVERYDAY (literally) and read and re-read the posts, esp. th ones about the cryptograms; you can get lost for hours in the theories.....pity me, I am a man obsessed!

Tom Voigt rules.

[Zuni]

6. The case is very circumstantial

That is why the DA never indicted Allen.
I remember reading a book by John Douglas, the serial killer profiler. Douglas describes Graysmith's subject(Allen) and concludes that he is a likely suspect, the best he has seen.
I just read about it, but it is a very interesting case. The whole cryptogram thing is very interesting. There are so many theories about this mysterious and highly organized killer.
I will check out the web site.

[Zuni]

9. check out the Crime Library at Court TV

www.crimelibrary.com

There is information on there about a whole lot of crimes and mysteries. There are even stories I have never even heard of.

[RandomKoolzip]

11. Yep, there's another site I check out on a regular basis.

Lots of good info on serial killers and unsolved crimes and stuff. And the best site on the web for information on George Metesky as well (a guy I used to be fascinated with).

[Jack Rabbit]

2. I remember the Zodiac killings

The killings and the letters stopped very suddenly. Being institutionalized would explain that.

The Zodiac was a real creepy one. In one of this letters, he threatened to shoot children as they got off a school bus.

I'd feel better if I knew for sure this guy was dead.

[Zuni]

7. Remember Dirty Harry?

I now realize that that was based on the Zodiac, except the Zodiac only threatened to attack kids on a bus---the killer in Dirty Harry actually hijacked one.

[Awsi Dooger]

12. I'm convinced Arthur Leigh Allen was not Zodiac

The partial DNA profile from last year's Primetime Live broadcast did not match Allen, confirmed by newspaper articles and a recent Cold Case Files show on A&E. That show was excellent, BTW. And Allen looks almost nothing like the police sketch via the teenagers who witnessed the aftermath of the Paul Stine murder in San Francisco.

Plus it's just always been my opinion that Allen was the simpleton's choice as Zodiac. Virtually nothing from his background or personality indicates an ability to compose a cryptogram that has not been solved in 30+ years. One of the posters on zodiackiller.com (Jake, I think) has a website of his own that gives an excellent summary of how weak and flawed the "evidence" against Arthur Leigh Allen is.

And the jealous efforts on the zodiackiller.com message board to dismiss the radian angle aspect are pathetic. Zodiac himself mentions the radian, even providing a map with a circle on Mt. Diablo, then impatiently mentions it again when there is no media coverage of that twist. Who gives a damn if the radian from murder site to murder site is not precise, in terms of degrees?

I have visited zodiackiller.com for years, but never posted. Still, I have done quite a bit of grammatical research on Zodiac letters that appear to exclude Zodiac from the '66 Bates murder in Riverside. It is so basic that I'm shocked none of the regulars there have caught it.

Tom Voight is so vulturous and mean spirited in regard to posters he disagrees with that I have no interest in becoming involved, other than infrequent visits to check an update or latest message board theory. Voight's site must be very advanced, keeping track of hits. Despite never posting, somehow I got on his email list.

[Zuni]

13. Error in DNA Profile

The problem was, according to graysmith, that they used a fake Zodiac letter mailed in 1978. The real Zodiac letters did not have licked stamps on them.
So the letter that they used to DNA test was probably not even the real thing.

[Awsi Dooger]

14. I'm not sure that's correct

The DNA testing was concluded late last fall, long after Graysmith's second Zodiac book was published. The DNA people were given access to many Zodiac letters. In fact, the Cold Case Files program concluded with news that 3 early Zodiac letters were discovered out of the chain of command, and that DNA testing on them was imminent.

The '78 letter is infamous as a fake, and likely written by someone who was involved in the investigation. I would be extremely surprised if such a dubious source was used to provide the partial DNA profile.

Zuni, I may have to visit zodiackiller.com to check on the source of the DNA sample. In a batch email I received from Tom Voigt, he praised the Cold Case Files show that included the DNA result, even though it rejected his favorite suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen. The regulars at zodiackiller.com, BTW, much prefer Graysmith's first Zodiac book to his second, Zodiac Unmasked.

[RandomKoolzip]

15. That's true.

The april 78 letter as on normal 8&1/2" by 11" paper, while all the other Zodiac correspondences ere on odd-sized teletype paper. It's a pretty sure thing Dave Toschi didn't write it though.

Given Graysmith's dubious credibility, it's possible that He included the April 78 letter in the first Zodiac book because it confirmed ALA as a suspect; Allen's stay at Atascadero prevented the Zodiac from sending lettes from 74-78. Since Allen got out in early 78, the appearence of a ne Zodiac letter ould provide the veneer of circumstantial guilt Graysmith as looking to place on Allen.

Although there is a lot of great cicumstantial evidence pointing to Allen, a lot of it has the appearence to me as a kind of deliberate masking tactic. Let me explain: Since Allen was a pedophile, and quite open about it, the likelihood of being sent to prison as alays hanging over him. Pedophiles are the lowest of the lo in prison, the first guys to get punked or even killed. However, luckily for llen, there as some suspicion of him being the Zodiac based on a tip from his brother and sister-in-law. In prison, nobody fucks with a hooded serial killer, especually a badass like the Zodiac. Thus, Allen sought to promote that suspicion, and foster it should he be placed in prison.

Instead, he got sent to a mental hospital for his pedophilia.

From 69-74, Allen did his best to slyly create the aura of the Zodiac around him; the atch, the ring, the odd statements made during the interrogations and searches. After his stay at Atascadero, his activities in this regard were curtailed. Who knows?

Some days, I think it's gotta be Allen, some days he's the worst suspect. Someday, there'll be a DNA match with SOMEBODY.

[johnnie]

16. Pretty sure..

Last night they mentioned a new "Forensic files" that is going to feature the Zodiac case. On tomorrow evening I think.