Rap= simple discussion-Are they musicians?

[bballny]

First off musicians can typically play anywhere from 3 to 5 instruments. My mother could hit 2 and 1/2 octaves and she also was an excellent artist( Over the years I've noticed that artists can transfer their talent over multiple forms of expression). My cousin graduated from Berklee school of music where you have to be proficient at 5 instruments. Musicians take years of practice to be able to play. I only ask most rappers to prove their musicianship. For the rapper please sing and carry a tune. If he can I will respect him or her. Pretty simple stuff

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. Damn I got to go to work in a few minutes here

:popcorn:

[ET Awful]

2. Sorry, but that's as illogical an argument as asking

Cubist movement - is it art? Or asking if Mark Rothko is an artist because hey, he didn't paint landscapes and still lifes.

It's an illogical argument based on a flawed premise.

BTW, did you know that Berklee teaches a course in turntables, as in scratching and mixing? http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02/18/music.dj.class.ap/

It would appear that Berklee School of Music disagrees with you.

[LynneSin]

4. that was exactly my argument

you just got yours in 2 minutes before mine!

[rbnyc]

14. zing! (nt)

[LynneSin]

3. Of course they are - just a different type of musician

You know, I never really got modern art especially Jackson Pollack (hell I could dump paint onto a canvas and call it art).

However, who am I to judge what is art or what is music. Both are personal choices for appreciation - just like I'm not keen on Modern Art that doesn't make it any less of art than coming on DU and dissing rap for not being music simply because the poster doesn't personally like the genre

[ET Awful]

5. LOL, great minds do indeed think alike.

I'm still chuckling that he threw up Berklee as an example, yet Berklee recognizes it as "music" and teaches classes in turntable scratching, mixing, etc.

[bballny]

16. scratching may be one form

The graduate still has to be proficient at 5 instruments. I never said you had to read music but I just said that most are really able to do multiple things. For you a deadhead Jerry was rather proficient at multiple instruments as is Phil who originally is a trumpet player. If you are around alot of artists they seem to be able to do multiple mediums. My mom was a singer. In later years she took up drawing and became a rater good artist. There is something to be said about being able to express yourself in multiple media and allow yourself to be critiqued. Eventually my mom had a showing at a gallery. There may be a few great rappers but I for one have always thought it was a scam. I just don't get the feeling that most of these people have worked for years and years perfecting the intricacies of playing an instrument or as I listened to my mom singing practice hour after hour singing scales.

[ET Awful]

19. When did you become the arbiter of what is and is not music?

Obviously the very institute you cited disagrees with you, they recognize hip-hop as music.

As I said to clintmax below, you sound like my grandfather trying to explain why rock isn't music.

Simply because it is not YOUR preferred type of music does not render it non-musical.

Attempting to compare Phil and Jerry to rap is once again proving how flawed your entire argument is. You are attempting to compare two entirely different entities and genres, it's the apples and oranges comparison. Do you say Picasso wasn't an artist because DaVinci's portraits were more conventional and fit your concept of what a portrait should be?

You're simply showing that you are incapable of thinking outside your pre-conceived notions.

[bballny]

29. It is two different mediums

and I probably do have difficulty thinking outside the box. Sometimes one has to make a judgment and for me they are not musicians. Are they artists- time will tell. It is interesting that in later years Jerry became a rather good artist on canvas. Having watched someone over the years do the every day drudgery of singing scales I grew great respect for the artist. My mom always said that Frank Sinatra stopped practicing because he lost his range. She had taken singing lessons for many years. If you've gone to the recent Phil shows you have probably noticed that Phil is singing better that ever and I heard he has been taking singing lessons. I am probably out of my league discussing this topic but I just don't think the majority of these people are musicians.

[ET Awful]

38. In later years? Jerry painted for YEARS.

Once again, what YOU think is somewhat irrelevant, as you are not the final word on what is and is not music.

You sound exactly like someone who decades ago derided rock music, or prior to that, jazz.

Simply because it's a new form of music which you don't like doesn't mean it's not music, it simply means you don't like it.

It is indeed two different mediums, but because you dislike the medium does not make something not art.

[bballny]

41. It's funny

sometimes I do dread that I sound like my Dad. It was my mom who was open minded about music. I could introduce her to Van Morrison and she liked him. She thought Art Garfunkel had a great voice. My parents were big band and I have an appreciation for big band. I am so so on classical but I do think it is good. It doesn't do a lot for me in generating emotion. I am a product of the sixties and the bands like the dead were "underground". They were not played on AM which was the popular media outlet during the mid sixties. These bands played in 2,000 person shoecases(HFillmore sat 2649). My kids listen to rap and I have listened on and off and I may be getting old but it doesn't strike me as anything that will stand the test of time. West Side story as a composition(Leonard Bernstein) is still listenable to this day. Miles Davis is still relevant. Why has the sixties music lasted so long. I maintian that it was probably one of the few times that the record companies lost control of the hits. Bands were not trying to make "hits". They were trying to make music. The 45 was dead in the late sixties. Listen to most of the bands who were in top of the charts during the late sixties and by and large the music makes me want to puke. The bands that have stood the test of time were underground.Do you think rap will stand the test of time Do you think people will be really listening to this reap 40 yeras from now.
That is what I question

[ET Awful]

45. Little hint for you, people were saying EXACTLY the same thing

when rap music first went mainstream, that was over 20 years ago. People said it would be dead in a couple of years, that was over 20 years ago. People said it wouldn't last.

You know what? They said exactly the same thing when Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Chuck Berry, Elvis, and others first began pushing a new type of music called rock and roll.

20 years later, Rappers' Delight still gets radio play, as do Run DMC's early songs.

The answer to your question is quite simple. Yes, people will still be listening to it in 40 years. As long as there are young urban people with something to say, people will listen to their music.

[bballny]

54. I'll be dead by then

I jaust wanted to majke a good discussion point and I think I have.

[ET Awful]

55. If by "good discussion point" you mean making a sweeping sterotypical

statement with no basis in fact, then sure you made one.

You started out by trying to use Berklee School of Music as your substantiation, then when shown that they consider hip-hop to be music, you tried a dozen other arguments, all of which circled back to the mere fact that because YOU don't like it, it can't be music.

[bballny]

58. I actually was

alive when they came out. I guess if you find it really good great for you. I just find it basically boring as many people find the Dead. As I said to many people going to see the Dead when they are on they are really great but when they are off I find them boring and I have seen them some 50 times.

[ET Awful]

66. Then I would think that you would know how ill-placed your argument

is, having heard your own parents, or others of the time, deride rock as "jungle music" that would never last.

But, as was said at the time, "Rock and roll will never die."

Neither will hip-hop.

[Heidi]

6. Do you think installation art is art?

How about performance art? How about abstract art? Or must every "artist" be subjected to a test similar to yours, for example, demonstrating proficiency at traditional drawing and panting methods in order to prove himself or herself worthy of being called an "artist"? I say, no. If that artist says it's art, or if the musician says it's music, then it is. If I don't like it, I won't look at it or buy it.

Are we a Big Tent? Or are we a Country Club?

[ET Awful]

7. Why am I picturing the first class in "Dead Poets Society" when

Robin Williams goes off on the author of the text for trying to define what is "poetry" and what is not, and orders the students to rip that section from the book.

[Heidi]

11. Well, here's the way I look at it.

A lot of people _think_ they're the arbiters of what is or isn't art, but the truth is, they're not, because art (whether it's hip-hop or rap or blues or classical portraiture or installation art) is subjective. It always has been, and I'm betting it always will be. :)

[ET Awful]

12. Bingo, art, whatever it's form, be it poetry, music, a painting on canvas,

a sculpture, or a performance, is somewhat self-defining. If the artist perceives it as art, and the artist's intended audience (if there is such a thing), perceives it as art, it is art. It's that simple.

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. I wouldn't say subjective

It's more a matter of "interpretive communities." We get to decide whether we like something or not, but what is considered art is determined by larger communities. The fact - the simple fact - that rap is considered music by hundreds of millions of people around the world, that it inspires dancing, and inspires new musical works, and, to quote Rakim, moves the crowd, should be enough, but there's always the cultural agenda of those who deny its musical quality - the absurd notion that their own cultural understandings of music should be universalized, and anything that doesn't agree with it should be invalidated, well..

That rap is so closely mapped on to race should tell you something about how "subjective" this tendency is: it is not subjective at all. I can tell you that I don't like country music, for the most part. But I would never deny that it is music, nor invent bizarro categories to argue that stupid point, as various unnamed ignorants will with respect to rap.

[Heidi]

21. You're right. I should have said that judgments related to art

and music are subjective. I'm apalled at the amount of bigotry I see in the Lounge today. I guess we're more of a "country club" than a "big tent," at least where music and art are concerned. Sigh.

:hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. It is bigotry

Then you'll hear the aggrieved cries of "Oh, I'm a racist because I don't like rap?"

No, douchebag, you're a racist because you deny the obvious musical quality of other cultural forms, and try to universalize your own cultural form as the only one. Whether you like it or not is immaterial.

[Bassic]

69. I don't think anybody is saying it is not art.

They're just saying it's not music. When I listen to serious rappers (not gasta rappers) I don't feel I'm listening to musicians, but rather to poets.

They are artists yes. They just don't happen to be musicians.

[Heidi]

89. Music _is_ an art.

Those who say it's not music are saying it's not art, in my opinion.

Music
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony

(Further, many "gangsta" rappers are _very_ serious about what they're doing. This, of course, does not mean you or I or anyone else has to _take_ them seriously. :shrug:)

[Bassic]

90. Yes music is an art.

I should know I'm a semi-professionnal musician myself.

Rap, is also an art. It's just not music.

Rap is poetry with sound effects. It's not inferior to music at all, but it's not part of it. It is part of poetry.

[ET Awful]

92. Using your definition, the Doors were not music, after all, it was merely

Jim Morrison's poetry set to "sound effects".

[Bassic]

108. No, Jim Morrisson sang most of his poems.

Furthermore, the rest of the band composed and played the music themselves.

Therefore it is music. The lyrics themselves are poetry, hence Morrisson is a poet-singer. Because he does both poetry and music.

[ET Awful]

112. So, by your definition then, Biz Markey would be a musician because

he plays piano and sings?

[Bassic]

115. I have no idea who that is. But if he plays a musical instrument

and know how to sing to boot, yeah he's a musician.

[ET Awful]

116. Ummm, he's a rapper.

You just contradicted yourself.

[Heidi]

95. Yes, it's music.

I promise, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you (as you're one of the more civil folks posting in this thread), but I'm emphasizing in the following how rap (including the sound effects to which you refer) meets the definition of music.

By definition 3 alone, rap would be music by your definition, as in a poetry set to music.

Music
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony
2 a : an agreeable sound : EUPHONY <her voice was music to my ears> b : musical quality <the music of verse>
3 : a musical accompaniment <a play set to music>
4 : the score of a musical composition set down on paper
5 : a distinctive type or category of music <there is a music for everybody -- Eric Salzman>

[Bassic]

109. It would be true if they sang the lines. But they do not.

They speak to a musical background. It can be beautiful, but it's still not music. I've seen a lot of amateur rappers who know so little about music that they can even speak on key. Of course that tends to correct itself over the years.

[Bassic]

65. They may be artists.

Some of the are poets for example. But seldom are they musicians. A musician is a form of artist, not a prerequisite for it.

[Heidi]

100. See the Merriam-Webster definition of music upthread.

Just because it's not music to _our_ ears does not negate that rap, by definition, is music.

This argument is not new. Very similar arguments were made in the mid-1930s, when John Cage published his first compositions, in an atonal system which the majority also said was not music.

[johnnie]

8. I hate to play the dictionary card, but...

Musician:
a composer, conductor, or performer of music

Music:
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony

So technically speaking, Rap is music and rappers perform rap. So yes, they are musicians.

[Bassic]

70. Except that they often don't compose and rather use

pre-existing stuff.

[Brewman_Jax]

9. Why should they comform?

why should rap and rappers have to pass your test? Just say you hate rap and be done with it. :eyes:

[Clintmax]

10. I've been silent about this subject up to this point...

But this is a valid question and here is my opinion:

Rappers do not sing. They talk and sometimes scream the words. They include every swear word in their "music" including the F-bomb, over and over. Most rappers rap because they CAN'T sing. They do not use REAL instruments, but electronic everything. I hate rap. I always have. I want to hear a real instrument in a song. I want to hear someone who can actually sing a note, not just scream words into a microphone. When the group accepted their award last night, I could not understand a word they said, so I have no doubt none of them could sing...period.

[ET Awful]

15. OH NO, they put swear words in their music ? Can't have that now can we?

They scream into the microphone? (Listened to any punk, hard rock, heavy metal or anything not sugar-coated pop lately?).

BTW, a LOT of rap has been done with live musicians playing everything from drums to simple jazz riffs.

You sound oddly like my grandfather describing why Elvis wasn't music.

[Clintmax]

23. Oh, please.

I know rappers aren't the only ones who scream into the microphone. I just prefer to listen to someone who CAN sing a note and doesn't have to resort to cussing in a song to sell records. It's completely unnecessary and juvenile.

[ET Awful]

27. Unnecessary? Perhaps, but how many days do you go without

hearing those same words in conversation? In a movie? Hollered on the street?

It's purely reflecting what's happening in general.

It's no different that any 60's band singing about drugs, it may not have been necessary, but it was descriptive of what they saw every day.

BTW, there is VERY little "screaming" in any hip-hop music, as anyone who'd actually listened to it would know. In fact, most hip-hop contains very smooth flowing vocal tracks so as to get the message across that the artist is trying to convey.

[ghostsofgiants]

83. A lot of rappers can sing.

Mos Def, Moka Only, Lauryn Hill, K-os, etc. There are plenty. Just because they rap doesn't mean they can't sing. Maybe, and this might come as a shock to you, they rap because they actually like to rap and enjoy the way it sounds. (K-os and Lauryn both also play guitar extensively on their records and in their shows, for what it's worth.)

And even those who can't sing, so what? Their inability to sing should invalidate their music? A lot of "singers" in punk bands and whatnot can't sing either, so they scream. Does that mean we should write off punk music completely as well?

And should we write off electronic music just because they don't use "real" instruments?

Besides, good hip-hop producer who uses samples will use those samples in a way that makes them part of a whole new creation. Think of it as a sort of musical photomontage.

You don't like rap. That's fine. Just don't take this condescending "it's not music" or "they're not musicians and have no talent, which is why they rap" attitude.

[rbnyc]

17. Yikes!

Well, you can't argue with opinion.

But I'll tell you, I'm usually WAY more pissed off at the choice of best song at the oscars. I can't tell you how much I hate Phil Collins and Sting.

[Clintmax]

24. Those two boys certainly have changed...

from what they were like in the early and mid 80's, that's for sure. They aren't my favorite singers either.

[Ravenseye]

28. Oh please

Cultural Relativism anyone? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean that it can't be classfied. I don't like Cauliflower. Hate the stuff. Vile plant. The smell, the taste. I'll throw up if I have to eat it, but that doesn't make it stop being a plant.

I don't like cauliflower so I don't eat it. You don't like rap so you don't have to listen to it. It doesn't make it stop being music.

Also what does not understanding a word they say have anything to do with how they can sing? Do you speak Laotian? If a Lao girl got up there and spoke in accented english you probably wouldn't understand a word she would say either....would that prevent her from being able to sing?

[CBGLuthier]

56. Generalize much?

I have heard rap softly spoken. I have heard rap clean enough to play for your grandmother.

I have heard rap with wonderful melodic lines.

I have heard Chuck D of Public Enemy speak clearly, loudly and proudly with a voice from god.

Maybe you need to listen to some better rap and not just that shit on MTV and BET.

[ghostsofgiants]

86. That would mean creating an informed opinion.

One that might contradict his current opinion. And lord knows we can't have that.

[imperialismispasse]

99. One more thing.. re: rappers can't sing

Cee-Lo can definitely sing. Definitely. Lots of others too.

[rbnyc]

13. Are drummers musicians?

Rap takes a lot of talent and a lot of practice. They may not be as concerned with melody and octaves as traditional vocalists, but neither are drummers.

I was playing qwerty on pogo last night and I was amazed at how many people put in their profiles that they like all music except rap.

There's a lot of rap I can't stand, because of the subject matter. But I do appreciate rap as a very artful form of music.

And like most intellectual white girls who grew up in the 8o's, I love Public Enemy.

;-)

EDIT: I have a very special place in my heart for Dr. Octogon as well.

[Beware the Beast Man]

18. Assembling programmed beats, samples, and scratching is an art form.

As well as the poetry involved. Yes, it is music. Banging on pots and pans, when done properly, is music. So is playing a kazoo, the spoons, a tissue paper with comb, etc. It takes knowledge and practice to program a song or beat and keeping it sounding fresh and new.


And this is all coming from a person who's not a huge fan of hip-hop, but can appreciate it nonetheless.

[tjdee]

22. Is Keith Richards a musician? Rapping isn't so easy--try it.

There are hordes of "musicians" who can "only" sing. Or "only" play the guitar. Rapping, and making a halfway decent shot at it, is not easy. Freestyling, not easy.

It is easier if you think of rap as poetry with arranged music. That is art, even if you don't like it (and I can't stand 99% of hip hop/rap/r&b music).

[Bassic]

71. Again, that makes poets of them.

Not musicians.

[Ravenseye]

26. Plenty of Musicians only play one instrument, but how do you know?

I know a few musicians. For some reason it seems half my friends are musicians and the other half are teachers...

Anyway one has a great voice...did choir and all that jazz. Now she does little performances and teaches voice lessons. She plays no instruments whatsoever. Is she not a musician?

I have another friend who worked her ass off at being good at violin (we actually started taking it together when we were 4, but she was good) and now plays with a small but fairly prestigous symphony. All she plays, that I know of, is violin. No other lessons. Is she not a musician?

Another friend is a drummer in a band. All he does is drums, though he can bang on a piano for a bit and is better than if he had never taken a lesson. Is he not a musician?

Finally, how do you know these rappers you hate don't play a bunch of different instruments? You don't. You ask for them to prove their musicianship...Do you go to a concert for a band you DO like knowing exactly what instruments that they play? Do you ask for Mick Jagger to 'prove' his musicianship?

Please.

[bballny]

30. I will bet that

the violinistcan play all the instrumenst associated with strings- Viola etc.Singers are musicians

[Ravenseye]

31. So you get to define what's singing then?

Wow I wish I could live in a world where I got to define everything.

The violinst can probably play Viola a little bit, since it's pretty much the same instrument with deeper strings, but I bet you she can't just sit down and play a full work on it....well she's good maybe...but that's a bullshit example..

Someone who only plays the French Horn can't pick up an Oboe and play it....When you talk of people playing 5 instruments you're not talking about people who can play 5 different types of trumpets, but 5 distinct instruments.

Who defines what singing is? You?

[bballny]

33. give her a couple of years and I bet she could play it.

Furthermore I bet if you put her on the piano that within a relatively short period of time se will be able to play that.

[Ravenseye]

36. How do you know they can't?

You're assuming she can after I describe her in a couple sentences...How do you KNOW these rappers can't? You're making all sorts of assumptions, which by the way many people would describe as racist. Just because someone raps doesn't mean they can't sing, nor play instruments. You're just assuming that.

Yet why do they have to? You dont' get to define what Music is, and neither do I. Personally I don't like rap music. Can't stand it. Just isn't my bag. Yet it IS music, and there is no condition that a musician must fulfill certain qualities like playing a certain number of instruments, or having a certain range.

You need to separate what you like and what you don't like, from the opinions you have of them. you're looking at the whole thing completley wrong.

[bballny]

44. I don't know if they can't

It is jsut a question I would like answered. Maybe they can. I am assuming they can't and I am probaly at fault or that. Like I said I would like to see what thay can do.

[bballny]

50. I'm not trying to define music

but it is fun to discuss. Do you think rap will stand the test of time?

[ET Awful]

53. Rappers Delight was released in 1979

It's now 2006.

I'd say 27 years constitues standing the test of time.

Grandmaster Flash released "The Message" in 1982 ushering in the days of having a true message to the music in hip-hop.

I can still hear both of these on the radio today.

[no name no slogan]

88. "Rock And Roll Has Got To Go"

great points re: longevity of rap. It was even around in the early 70s, according to some music scholars. Or even the 60s, if you want to include Jamaican dub/toasting in the equation.

People were still saying that rock would never last well into the 1960s. And it's still here, in one way shape or form. Same with jazz, for that matter.

[DS1]

32. Well, the "Hype-Man" isn't, I think that we can all agree on that

:eyes:

YEA YEA YEA PUT YO HANDS IN THE AIR YEA YEA YEA

[ET Awful]

42. Are you saying that Flava Flav isn't a musician?

:evilgrin:

Yeaaaaah Boyeeeeeeeee.

[DS1]

43. He's a performer. Like a Mime with Tourrettes, or maybe an autistic

who can't keep a mental clock

[ET Awful]

46. That's why he wears one around his neck.

:evilgrin:

[DS1]

47. Now you're getting it

[BlueJazz]

34. As a Professional Musician and one who worked for CBS as a ...

..Studio Player, I can understand why so many call "Rap" Music.
I'll even agree with them even though I personally find it rather simplistic and boring.
I usually judge an "Art Form" by how hard or difficult it is to play. Some Rap is quite inventive...
..a LOT of rap is just a DR-880 Rhythm Machine that been Programmed by a schooled Drummer
with words added.
(for those who don't know..Most Professional Drum and Rhythm Machines come from the Factory
preprogrammed with anywhere from 200 to 1200 Beats with Rhythms, so "Making a song" involves
turning the dial to #576 and adding some words...Bam!..you have a tune)
True..you have to learn the machine, which takes a few days but it's really not a big deal.

Having said all that, if Rap turns you on and makes you happy and such, than more power to it...
Plus..I (personally) feel the same way about German Polka Music...Agggg!!!!
..now I think about, I would rather hear Rap than that Crap.. :)

[Ravenseye]

37. Music doesn't have to be hard

There's no rule that you need to train for a decade in order to learn how to be a musician before you can come up with music. I think that is a stumbling block for many people. Fact of the matter is there have been plenty of musicians in the past half century who knew very little about music but made some interesting things. Look at all the surf and punk bands of the 60's and 70's where the guitarists knew 3 or maybe 4 chords. CCCCCCCCC GGGGGGGGG DDDDDDDDDD GGGGGGGGGG

It's not complex and I could probably teach a monkey to do it, but that doesnt' mean it isn't music.

I don't know. I don't like lots of different music...rap...country....I just dont' listen to it. That's the great thing about music. THere are so many varieites you're bound to find at least one you like.

[ET Awful]

40. Nope, it doesn't have to be hard . . . ever heard Phillip Glass?

I mean, he's music, but talk about minimalist, compositions that just repeat the same chord over and over and over and over. . . and over. One chord.

[BlueJazz]

52. What you say is very True.

I guess it's what you do with the 3 chords or even One Chord.
On the song "FM" by Steely Dan, Theres a Sax solo that's about 3 Minutes long
with just One Chord...An E Major..but Damn!..He does some pretty cool stuff.

Probably why a Lot of Schooled Players are so vocal about certain types of music is the fact that they
know "What's going on" in the song.
I mean,,,having been blessed with perfect pitch, I can hear a tune and call out the chords
and structure as it's being played so (I'll admit) I can be VERY opinionated about the song
and whether I think it's cool or not.

But..That's my problem..not the average listener.. :)

Again..If the Music people hear causes them to think or be happy, than who am I to tell them it's wrong....

[ProfessorGAC]

107. So, I Guess It Doesn't Matter That We Have A President Who Knows Nothing!

Just kidding. But, i do get my back up over the "music doesn't have to be hard" thing. Of course, you're right, but the more difficult music someone can play, the better musician they tend to be. People with enormous technical skills can, if they are really musicians, always turn the "intensity knob" to the appropriate level for the song. Coltrane knew how to play both "My Favorite Things" and "Jupiter Variations", no?

But, i think it does matter how good a usician a recording artist is. If i though otherwise, i might think it's perfectly acceptable that Silverspoon is a know-nothing moron becaue there are no rules that a president has to be smart and truly educated. (And we know he's neither.)
The Professor

[Bridget Burke]

39. Don't give up on Polka Music!

Of course it's not all German. Here in Texas, we also hear Czech, Polish & Tejano polkas.

Then there's Brave Combo. Their founder was bored by the "hip" music of the day & found interesting Polka records in the bargain bins. Then he recruited musicians from UT North Texas, which has always had a fine music school. Brave Combo has won 2 Best Polka Album Grammies & play at Polka festivals around the country. But they excel in other genres, as well. Go see them live if you've got a chance.

www.brave.com/bo/

(Just to prove that NO genre should be condemned--even if it's not your cup of tea.)

[ET Awful]

49. The only good thing about polka music is that where there's polka

there's good beer. :evilgrin:

[BlueJazz]

62. You know ..some of the Swedish Polka stuff is rather,,

...pretty and invigorating.

As you know, a lot of German Polkas sound like Nazi marches just speeded up.
..and if you learn one..you know them all!

Even the polka players I know don't care very much for them :)

[bballny]

48. actually I agree with you

I would rather hear rap than polka. But you have it right. It is not the same sa the effort you put forward to get where you are. years of practice. Some of it is inventative. I don't think it will stand the test of time

[ET Awful]

51. It already HAS stood the test of time.

Over 20 years and going stronger than ever.

Hell, rap was already growing massively in 1981, which is why Blondie incorporated it into "Rapture" (one of the first cross-overs between popular music and hip-hop).

[bettyellen]

102. over 30 years, it was all over new york in 75 and 76...

when it was "underground" as the OP would say...
and who thing bob dylan can sing for fuck's sake?

[ET Awful]

105. Of course, but I was referring more to it's mainstream acceptance

which is about 27 years or so (since Rappers Delight went gold basically).

[Bridget Burke]

35. Most pioneering blues, country & rock artists would not ....

fit your criteria. Did your relatives also study composition--or do they only perform music written by others?

I love many types of music--some written & performed by artists with academic credentials. But there is music outside the concert halls.

I doubt the rap or hip-hop artists care about your "respect."

[bballny]

57. I thimk you're right

They don't care about me. They are making money which I think it is what it is all about. I think it is similiar to much of the music. No different than Brittany Spears. It smacks of commercialism. Reminds me of what we called comercial marijuana in the sixties. Not like the wacky weed.. In the long run just commercial

[ET Awful]

61. Commercialism?

Little clue for you, the best hip-hop artists don't make a lot of money. Many of them have to form their own record labels to even get an album released. The best artists aren't people you hear on MTV, they aren't heard on the radio. The best hip-hop usually comes from people who do it for the love of the music, then their self-made recordings get included in mix-tapes (or CD's nowdays) by various DJ's (none of whom ever receive any mainstream recognition), these mix tapes are copied, distributed among friends and spread.

You're generalizing again based on what you see on TV. Perhaps if you actually KNEW about the music instead of basing your statements on an uninformed position, you might actually be able to make a valid case.

People like Boots from the Coup are fantastic and very intelligent lyricists, but I guarantee you've never heard them on the radio or on MTV.

[BlueJazz]

74. Yep...ET Awful..Ain't it the truth.

I can relate (to people) several "Artists" that have had hit songs, in all
forms of music, and don't make beans, as far as money is concerned.
If you don't have your own label, you're at the mercy of the Lawyers
and accountants that are "Owned" by the Record Label and they make damn
sure the Studio time, production costs, hotel rooms, engineer fees and a TON
of other costs Equal the profit on the record sales.
I've seen with my own eyes the costs going out and profit coming in equal the
2 by just a few dollars.

(In short..The Musicians are getting a 2x4 rammed up their Ass!)

[bballny]

78. I'm sure there are artists in the rap

community that are not commercial. I jsut think most of of is commercial. I agree with others it may be art but I don't think they are musicians

[ET Awful]

80. Mmmmmhmm, so you've said. But your own source of what is and

is not music, that being Berklee, disagrees with you.

Another little clue for you, ALL of the music you are subjected to on a daily basis is commercial, that's why you're subjected to it.

If you want non-commercial music, it's usually something you have to seek out yourself. Of course, if your goal is simply to attack rap or hip-hop, you will ignore the fact that if you hear it on the radio, it's probably commercial.

You can keep showing your bias all you like, but if Berklee calls it music, that works for me.

[Bridget Burke]

91. So--Classical musicians play for free?

Last time I checked, Opera tickets were pretty pricey. And these genres of music get a serious funding from philanthropists--plus a bit of government support.

Rap & Hip Hop musicians don't care about your elitist attitude. By the way--what's your instrument?

[ProfessorGAC]

59. Some Are. Some Ain't

It's that simple. There are hacks and poseurs in every genre of music, art, or entertainment. Then there are artists and artisans in every field. It depends. Going back in time a bit: Chuck D was an artist. Biz Markey wasn't.
The Professor

[ET Awful]

63. Biz Markey was an artist, still is. It's just that his art is more comedy

than music. He can be a riot. He knows this, it's his schtick.

Now, if you want to discuss "rappers" who weren't artists, let's talk about Vanilla Ice. :P

[ProfessorGAC]

68. That's A Fine Example Too

We don't have to agree on Markey. I think it's gross hackery. If he wants to be funny, he should do stand-up or be in funny movies. Then, i'd laugh. I tend not to find comedy acts doing music interesting or funny.

Now "Ice" is, indeed, and fine example. Complete poseur and hack.
The Professor

[ET Awful]

72. You don't find comedy acts doing music funny?

Ever listened to Steven Lynch?

[ProfessorGAC]

73. No & Yes!

I've heard him. I'm just not a fan of the funny music or music done funny thing. Not knocking it. Just don't care for it. Even Victor Borge left me cold. See it once, that's plenty.
The Professor

[edbermac]

60. Rap music makes me long for the days of Frankie and Annette

[Bassic]

64. Rap itself is music.

However the rappers usually have little to do with the actual composition of the music. They usually use tracks that already exist and mess with them.

Most of them are not musicians (at least not the gangster rappers) Some of them are poets yes (again not the gasta rappers), but seldom musicians.

[supernova]

67. Rappers aren't musicians. They're Poets

Rap is not music in the traditional sense so much as it's poetry with some sound effects thrown in.

Rappers might not have realized it back in the late 70s and early 80s when they were taking off (when was Rappers Delight? 77?) but they were hearkening back to a tradition that is quite old: spoken word performance.

Today we think of poetry as something to be read, not heard. Quite the opposite. Poetry is supposed to be performed and heard.

The next previous incarnation of what Rappers are doing was in the late 40s and 50s with especially the Beats mixing poetry with jazz in the background. If you doubt this, I have an MP3 of Johnny Depp reciting Kerouac's Mad Road Driving.

Rap, good rap, is about social injustice: racism, economic depression, fear, and fighting for what's right anyway. And yes, I do listen to some of it. When it's really good, there's nothing better right now.

[Bassic]

76. Thank you

I was beginning to wonder if anyone else would be able to make that distinction. :hi:

[DancingBear]

77. True, but it was much later than the 40's/50's

Gil Scott-Heron and The Last Poets (to name just two) were doing this in the 70's. Scott-Heron and The Midnight Band were performing in a musical context, while The Last Poets were performing in a spoken word context, for the most part.

I won't argue about whether present-day rap constitutes music per se (I do not think it does, and to call any of these folks "musicians" is laughable), but I just wanted to point out that there was a period in-between "Howl" and today. :)

[Bridget Burke]

96. LIghtnin' Hopkins improvised many of his lyrics....

Blues legend, Lightning Hopkins, is captured here in several recordings made in 1961 and 1969. Lightning's genius sparkled most strikingly in the comfort of his usual surroundings: the beer joints and taverns where his nightly improvisational performances usually turned into house parties. Lightning conceived of most of his compositions, polishing his poetics and his style, during his live spontaneous performances, usually fueling his creativity with a little gin. He would later recreate the best of these songs for his recording sessions. Whether in the studio, at Chris Strachwitz's apartment in Berkeley, or even in Lightning's own home, the recordings on this CD are distillations of Lightning's improvisational best, such as "Ice Storm Blues," an impromptu composition inspired by a terrible January freeze in Houston in 1962.

www.arhoolie.com/titles/403.shtml

He made numerous recordings, but I saw him perform many times in The Old Days.

The Talkin' Blues could also be considered a precursor to rap--(often) topical words spoken over minimal musical accompaniment. Woody Guthrie also did a few talkin' blues--showing again the links between African-American & Poor-White music.

And some of the roots are Jamaican.

[Ron Green]

104. Some would call it "verse" rather than poetry, though.

To many literary types, "poetry" is held to a pretty high standard, while "verse" or "doggerel" is what fits into a rhythmic pattern of a rap song or a talking blues.

[no name no slogan]

75. I am a musician who plays 5+ instruments, and I say rap IS music

Are they "classically" trained, like your Berklee grad? No. But do they make music? YES.

I am a self-taught musician, who learned to play several instruments by ear. I have been playing for over twenty years, and have recorded CDs for indy record labels. However, I do not sight-read charts for my primary instrument (guitar), but I do have perfect pitch. I also have a three-octave singing voice and practice nearly every day, in addition to my day job in the IT field.

Am I not a musician because I don't read music? Am I not a musician because I've never attended Berklee or some other hoity-toity pretentious conservatory (where technique is taught at the expense of expression)?

Or, better yet, is the classically-trained symphony musician (who has never written an original score in his/her entire life) an "artist"? Or just a highly-trained stenographer?

[bballny]

81. In my earlier post

I said that you don't have to read music to be a musician. I think rap may have been an interesting form of expression in the beginning. I think by and large today it is a commercial enterprise.

[ET Awful]

82. LOL . . . do you even think about what you're saying?

Rock was an interesting form of expression at the beginning, but it became commercial the minute they shoved 20 acts on two busses and made them tour the midwest performing 2 or 3 songs per artist each night and calling it a concert. Does that mean that rock is no longer an interesting form of expression?

With every post, you make it more and more clear that your goal is to attack rap music, nothing else. You use old tired arguments that are equally applicable to ANY form of popular music.

[bballny]

85. whatever

you are right

[ET Awful]

87. So is it your contention that rock isn't commercial?

If that is not your contention, why would you bring "commercialism" into the discussion?

[bballny]

94. Rock is commercial

There was a very short period that it was not commercial. U of R used to teach a course on rock music and the years that were taught were between 1964 and 1971. This was a time when studios lost control. I don't know if you were around then but if you were it was an interesting time. Early on Rock(early Elvis sessions and C Berry) it was probaly similiar. Then we got the pukey period of Frankie and Annette and it was incredibly bad. Then when the Beatles came in rock had a rebirth. Bands created and controlled the medium They were given free reign in the studio. Some was good and some was bad. Great bands like the Who emerged while pretenders like Spooky tooth and one hit wonders didn't make it. After 71 hits became the issue again and you started to get pretty unsatisfying crap again. You as a deadhead should be in tune with this. Do I love Dave Grisman yes I do. Is he commercial -I don't think so. I have a pretty open taste in music. Do I sound like my Dad. probably. I still think I listen with an open mind. I just have never thought rappers are musicians. I admit I am pretty selective on what I listen to but I have alwys loved music since I was 3. My mom said I would put my head over the victrola and lisaten constantly.

[ET Awful]

97. If you had an "open taste in music" you wouldn't try to deny that

music is music, and you wouldn't try to first use Berklee as your determining factor, then when that didn't work, turn to commercialism which is applicable to ALL FORMS OF MUSIC.

Every argument you present either applies universally to all forms of popular music expression, or is simply a circuitous way of you saying you don't like rap.

I despise most country music, but I'm not going to say it's not music. I despise speed metal, but I'm not going to say it's not music . . . well, I might, but only in jest.

[bballny]

101. counrty is music

it's just fake and basically dishonest because all they are trying to do is create hits and it sounds like it. There is no artisrty to it. I feel the same about rap. It just sounds like a formula

[ET Awful]

103. LOL . . . once again, you use arguments that apply to all forms of music

and try to narrow them down to fit your pre-conceived notion.

All popular music is formulaic, has been for decades. If you heard it on the radio or on TV, it's formulaic, that's how it made it to radio and TV, it followed a set formula, both musically and through it's marketing.

[ContraBass Black]

110. Why are people going after rap again today?

Is it because of Crash?

[ET Awful]

111. I think it had to do with the song from Hustle & Flow winning

something or other.

[ContraBass Black]

113. I never saw that movie. I heard it was awful, though.

What was the song?

[ET Awful]

117. No clue, I just know it was rap

:P

[ContraBass Black]

118. I'd like to know what the song is, but I'm not sure I want to wade

Through this cesspool to find it.

How long does DU usually take to calm down after this kind of thing?

[RandomKoolzip]

79. This might be the saddest thread ever on DU.

And I say "sad" to mean both tragic and head-shakingly, numbingly pathetic beyond comprehension.

Did Bo Diddley go to Berkelee? How about Guitar Slim? John Lee Hooker? You're applying invalid criteria to a form which stands outside your outdated paradigms. I don't know how old you are, but you sound like Mitch Miller fighting off Elvis with a baton and a contempt for the young (and the underclass). I bow my head and weep for you, sir.

[jane_pippin]

84. "I only ask most rappers to prove their musicianship."

Um...:rofl:

To you? Yeah. I'm sure that's right at the top of most rappers' to do lists:

"Things to do today:

1. Prove I'm a musician to anonymous person on the interweb with standards that have little or nothing to do with my craft--check!

2. Write songs--check!

3. Roll around in my piles of money earned by "not being a musician."--check!"

[ContraBass Black]

93. Crap, I only play cello! I'm not a musician!

This is the weakest attempt to incite a rap flame-war I've ever seen.

[ET Awful]

98. Well I only play clarinet and trumpet . . . well I used to, it's been

18 years or so since I played either, but STILL . . . .

[ContraBass Black]

106. Damn. That was fast.

:hi:

[crispini]

114. Bwahahahahaha!

[Skinner]

119. Locking.

The OP was formerly banned under a different username.