People who don't like Hip Hop must see Hustle and Flow

[eeyore]

I posted this as a late response in another thread that I think most here will never see. So, sorry for the cross-post, but I'm really disturbed by all of the Hip Hop hating going on this morning.

Hustle and Flow is all about the creation of that song, using it as a tool for that pimp to try to better his life. The whole damn movie is about the struggle of an inner city black man who is trying to use what he knows, hiphop, to get out of pimping, the only lifestyle that he has ever known.

I would suggest that anyone who thinks Hip Hop is not music, or wishes for it to die, to get off of your racist ass and go see the movie before you judge it. You may not like the song, but it represents an incredibly important part of our culture that you seem to be completely unwilling to examine.

This is the kind of attitude that inspired Kanye West to say that George Bush doesn't care about black people. I believe he was speaking in broader terms, actually meaning that white people don't care about black people. Hustle and Flow is about the same kind of people whose lives were devalued so much my our government that the were allowed to drown in New Orleans.

Why the hell would you ask when Hip Hop will die or claim that it's not music? Basically what you're asking is, when will those uppity negros fall back in line and entertain me like they used to?

You may not like the style of Hip Hop, but it is incredibly important to an entire culture that you flippantly discount with your incredibly closed-minded remarks.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. I don't wish death on hip-hop.

I certainly despise most of the commercial grade hip-hop, but I know that's not the good stuff.

Still, I don't think it's racist to hate hip-hop, just as it's not racist to hate country or techno, as a great many people I know do. A lot of the same people that hate hip-hop and want it to die out equally want those genres to die out. The only difference between hip-hop and country to them is that hip-hop is relatively new, so those people keep hoping it's just a fad, but it's not.

I'm sure some hip-hop haters ARE racist, but I certainly don't think the majority of them on DU are.

[eeyore]

3. Did you read the threads about Hip Hop this morning?

Asking when Hip Hop will die and declaring it to not be music is at the very least incredibly xenophobic, sheltered, and classist, if not outwardly racist. To me that pretty much mirrors the attitudes that dictated the entire governmental response to Katrina.

I actually don't like much modern hip hop. I think that as it's dominated the charts the form has lost the social and political edge that made me love the early stuff. I find most of what's out there right now to be pretty lacking in substance, but I'm not going to ask when it will die. I honestly hope and believe that it will come back around. But in the end, who the fuck cares what I think as long as I'm not declaring it "not music" or calling for it to die as an art form?

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Wow, we're still feeding the troll.

Usually after a pizza party we move on.

That poster aside, one can question whether hip-hop is music without being racist or sheltered or classist. Not everyone has had the luxury of exposure to anything but older Western music forms. There are people who struggle to understand any musical form that isn't wrapped around a sing-songy tune. They deserve a simple answer: why yes, it's music.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

2. sorry, but I just don't like rap/hip hop

just as I don't like country music or death metal or polka or klezmer or Italian popular music. What I dislike about rap the most, however, is the 'lifestyle' around commercial rap and the way it influences urban youth, black white latino, into acting, dressing and behaving like thugs, where things like a tricked out Escalade and tacky jewelry are apparently the worthiest goals one can aspire to and where women are treated like junk.

I realize there is more rap out there than what's in the top 40 charts, but it's a genre that I just cannot get into at all, like the ones mentioned above.

[eeyore]

5. I'm not asking anyone to like hip hop

I don't see threads calling into question the validity of country, death metal, klezmer or any other art form. All I'm asking is that people try to understand what is around them before discounting it. This movie is a good window into a world that is very important to our country. Ignore it if you like, but you're essentially ignoring an entire culture of poverty and dead ends, just like our country has been doing for decades.

[Ron Green]

9. Here's an honest question about hip-hop: How can you tell the good stuff

from the bad? I can listen to almost any other genre and know whether there is artistry there or whether it's designed to sell to the masses. And I maintain that what is very popular is rarely of high quality, and vice versa. But with hip-hop, there are not enough of the elements of music (melody, harmony, rhythm, timbre, etc.) for me to know if a piece is speaking with authenticity or just a commercial thing. What are the markers? Please don't say "this is good" or "that is junk," but tell me what the real criteria are.

[eeyore]

17. Wow, that's a really tough question.

First, let me say that I in no way qualify as an expert on hip hop. Being such, I've just listened to what I've encountered along the way, and have found some things that I really like and some that I don't like but can respect. I'm a 37 year old white guy who grew up in the suburbs of Colorado. Take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

Personally, I got into hip hop early on through the messages that artists were writing about - they considered themselves reporters on the frontlines of an America that was being ignored. It was politically intense, and they sought to paint a true picture of what it was like to live in their neighborhoods at that time. Public Enemy, NWA, and Boogie Down Productions fall into that category. I appreciate the artistry of their story telling, and I like the intensity and innovation of the music that they created with absolutely no budget for instruments. They used what they had to create what they could.

I also really liked Tribe Called Quest and De La Soul, both of which are a bit more light hearted and funny. They were not particularly political, but created some incredibly catchy and sometimes hilarious pop-rap.

I really know what makes something good or bad to anyone else, I just know what I like. I'm a musician, a drummer and a singer, so I like melody and I like rhythm. I love good pop songs that tell great stories. If I find these things in an appealing combination, genre doesn't really conern me. Either I like it or I don't.

Sorry if that's obtuse, but it's a really hard thing to explain.

:toast:

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. First, I would say

that hip hop is a remarkably complex enterprise, with many criteria - it's about how well a lyricist complements the track, how jumping the track and beat is, the virtuosity of the rhyme scheme, and the story being told. In terms of the track and the beat - essential here - I'm sure I can't provide living examples. You'd have to listen. But I guess a few examples of the others wouldn't hurt. There's a silly notion among people that don't listen to hip hop that the rhyme schemes are fairly simplistic, the cliched white dude on TV echoing some of the early stuff "My name is Ice and I'm here to say..." etc. Rhyme schemes have gotten much more complex. Just an example from one of Eminem's battle scenes in 8 Mile:

Did you listen to the last round meathead?
Pay attention, ya sayin the same shit that he said
Matter fact dog, here's a pencil
Go home, write some shit, make it suspenseful
And don't come back until somethin dope hits you
Fuck it
You can take the Mic home with you
Lookin like a cyclone hit you
Tanktop screamin, "Lotto I don't fit you"
You see how far them white jokes get you
Boys like, how Vanilla Ice gone diss you?

If you notice the bolded portion, Eminem's character begins a sequence of four syllable rhymes (long i, long o, short i, and ooo as in you). He keeps this up, with the beat, for six lines (!). And it ain't all words that would seem to sound the same (information, recreation, etc.), but separate words that would seem to have no connection to each other (Mic - home - with - you /cy - clone - hit - you/ I - don't - fit -you/ white - jokes - git - you/ Ice-gone-diss-you). Just in terms of technical sophistication with assonance, you can also look at Nas:

It's - the - return of the Prince, the boss
this is real hardcore, Kid Rock and Limp Bizkit's soft
sip criss, get chips, wrist gliss, I floss
stick shift look sick up in that boxed-up Porsche
with the top cut off, rich kids go and cop the source
they don't know about the blocks I'm on

At first glance, it's impressive enough to have 6 end-rhymes (boss, soft, floss, Porsche, source, on), but the scheme is much more complex than that. Here, the play is between short i's (Prince, Kid, Limp, Biz, Kit, Sip, Criss, Chips, Wrist, Gliss, Stick, Shift, Sick, In, With, Rich, Kids) and short o's (Boss, Core, Rock, Soft, Floss, Look, Boxed, Porsche, Top, Off, Cop, Source, Blocks, On), kept up with internal assonance, to the beat, for 6 lines again, but with multiple internal rhymes on each line. Notice that there are hardly any long e or long a sounds in the whole six lines. An accident? Hardly. You have to know a little something about poetics, but I think some well-thought of 19th century poets (more concerned about rhyme scheme and assonance than contemporary poets) would be astounded.

There are also issues of voice modulation, speeding up and slowing down, etc. So, to go back to 8 Mile, one of the lyroics, seemingly meaningless, goes as follows:

He can't get with me
spittin this shit wickedly
lyckety-shot
a spika-a-spicketly split
lyckety.

It is not, in any case, meaningless, but the real power is the virtuosity of the delivery, the way he modulated his delivery, pausing and speeding up, and hitting the beats in the technically correct manner. This is not easy stiuff, so when you hear it, it has a kind of mesmerizing effect.

There is also the quality of the story. I depart from many DU hip hop fans on this point, I suspect. Many here like rap with a political message. I like that too, but I also appreciate good gangsta rap that is adept at narrative. So, for example, the following from Notorious B.I.G., which is a clinic in character development that any aspiring writer should be envious of. Oh, and he does it with end-rhymes and internal rhymes to a beat, no easy task:


Since it’s on, I call my nigga Arizona Ron
From Tuscon, pushed the black Yukon
Usually had the slow grooves on, mostly rock the Isley
Stupid as a young’un, chose not to lose wisely
Sharper with game, him and his crooks, called the Jooks
Heard it was sweet, bout three-fifty a piece
Ron bought a truck, two bricks, laid in the cut
His peeps got bucked, got locked the fuck up
That’s when Ron vanished, came back, speakin Spanish
Lavish habits, two rings, twenty carats
Here’s a criminal, nigga made America’s Most
Killed his baby mother brother, slit his throat
The nigga got bagged with toast, weeded
Took it to trial, beat it
Now he feel he undefeated, he mean it
Nothing to lose, tattooed around his gun wounds
Everything to gain, embedded in his brain
And me I feel the same for this money you dyin'
Specially if my daughter cryin, I ain’t lyin
Y’all know the science

As character sketches go, this one is pretty damn good: absolutely concise, but you get a clear picture of the character being described, as well as his back story. His back story! In 16 lines, with internal and end-rhymes, to a beat. Pretty fucking good, you ask me.

These are just a few. there are also specific technical requirements for hitting the beat that developed over rap's history, distinctive use of break beats, etc. In short, a whole series of criteria that I'm not even aware of as a matter of vocabulary, but that I think I can here either met or not. Very very complex, in other words.

[Ron Green]

28. Thanks for this thoughtful and comprehensive reply.

I'll bookmark it, maybe print it out, and use it as a place to start listening. I've asked others on DU to help me with bridging the gap between my musical world, which is quite rich, and this enormous phenomenon of hip-hop, some of which I know is crap but the best of which, as you indicate, has subtlety and power worth experiencing. Until now no one has explained some of the keys.

[smirkymonkey]

25. Same here - it's like fingernails across a chalkboard.

Makes me want to punch somebody. I also dislike Country Western and the others you mentioned as well.

[Catchawave]

4. I was thrilled when Eminem won for "Lose Yourself".....

so I did "get" the passion of this year's winner!

[Deep13]

6. Is there any particular need for me to like hip-hop?

Why is disliking hip-hop rascist? I like what I like and dislike what I dislike. I'm not going to apologize for that. What makes you think all Black people like hip-hop?

[eeyore]

7. I never asked anyone to like it.

I just get a little disturbed when I see people on my favorite liberal message board starting threads asking when hip hop will die, and declaring that it's not music.

A little respect for difference, that's all I expect out of anyone, especially on a liberal message board.

I don't actually care what kind of music any person likes, as long as they respect the right for others to like something different.

[Deep13]

8. suits me

I'm not anti-rap, just not a rappophile myself. I liked it in the '80s, esp. Ice-T and Public Enemy, but it is not the same now.

[eeyore]

10. I totally agree...

Boogie Down Productions, Ice Cube, PE, and Tribe Called Quest are probably my favorites. I agree that it has changed for the worse over time, but then so have rock and country. I don't listen to much modern hip hop, mostly because I can't get past the thug lifestyle that a lot of it promotes.

I would encourage you to see Hustle and Flow. It's a beautiful and poignant movie about race, poverty and trying to find a way out through music. It sounds to me that you might really like it.



:toast:

[patcox2]

11. Fools dream.

Rap stardom as the way out, thats a lose-lose proposition, its a delusion, it does more harm than good. Because rap as a way out will only become a reality for a lucky few, while the values rap promotes, the rejection of the dominant culture, the regarding of conventional success (school, jobs) as selling out or being a sucker, will doom the many many others who will not be lucky and become rap stars.

[eeyore]

18. Actually that's what the movie is about.

You might want to check it out.

[Lavender Brown]

20. "the rejection of the dominant culture"

:wtf:

[eeyore]

26. No, it's about a pimp trying to find a better life for himself

I'm not going to give away the movie, but it's about a pimp who dreams of a better life. He has a friend from high school who has become a successful rapper. He hears his old friend is coming back to town, and thinks that his way out is to record a song to give to his friend, hoping that his friend will give him a break into the music world. It's about hero worship, preconcieved notions of success, and the lack of options that a young black man from a poor southern town has.

[Giant Robot]

12. Up front I don't like hip-hop

I do not think a lot of it is a form of music. You could argue it, but I don't see it that way. I certainly can understand it being placed as a form of art, but music, well, no. I certainly would like it, much like country music as well, to go away.

However. I do not think I am a racist for these views. I also see no need for me to impose my sense of order on the world. I understand that I am not in the demographic to whom most hip hop artists are marketing their product. And I am ok with that too.

Your assertions probably were justified in response to something that was said, although I have not gone looking for anything to be honest. I think that some of those broad assertions you were making were invalid and offensive.

To put it simply: I don't like hip hop...so what.

[LynneSin]

14. Like it or not - it's music

It just happens to be music that you don't like. Using your argument I guess I can say that modern country is not music.

It's all about personal taste, which I respect. But you also have to respect that rap is music!

[Giant Robot]

19. No I don't have to respect that it is music

Is it art? Sure. Are there rappers who do amazing things? I wouldn't know, but I certainly would believe so.

This is about my belief about what music is, and I do not see hip hop as that.

As I said before, it's my opinion...so what? I'm not creating anarchy in the world for it. Hell I am barely expressing it. I am not purchasing any hip hop because of it. Maybe that's the worst thing that comes of it.

And if you don't want to believe that modern country is music, I would have your back on that ;-)

[LynneSin]

13. I loved Hustle & Flow

I always try and pick one upset for the actors awards and the upset I went for was Howard over Hoffman

[NVMojo]

15. America the fickle is busy playing victim that a gay movie didn't

take the statute on because America doesn't want to admit we still crap on non-whites of certain race in this country. We so badly need to get over ourselves.

[fleabert]

16. add Block Party to that...an excellent concert for the

non-rap fan.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Ding Ding Ding

I believe he was speaking in broader terms, actually meaning that white people don't care about black people.

Exactly. And changing that is not about watching Crash and feeling all special about your racial sensitivity. It's about, at the very least, recognizing an art form that emerges from and collects the presuppositions of another culture. It's not about liking rap. As Nina Simone once said, "You don't have to live next to me, just give me my equality..." You don't have to like rap, but damn, dawg, there it is.

[leftofthedial]

23. cool movie

too bad people take trivialities so seriously

since when is "lifestyle" a bad thing?

[hfojvt]

27. In broader terms though

white people don't care about other white people either. Bush does not care about poor white people either, just because they are white.

I do not care if negroes are entertaining me. I would prefer not to have the current music, which I will probably never like 95.3% of it assaulting my ears. Like most people, I simply prefer to listen to music that I like. Most people who would complain about my lack of musical tolerance are not any more tolerant of the music that I like.

It's "an incredibly important part of our culture" but is it a positive part?

[Katherine Brengle]

29. self-delete--clicked "post message" twice oops.

[Katherine Brengle]

30. Actually, all of those threads made me really want to see the movie---

During the awards, I didn't particularly care for the song, BUT at the same time it reminded me of the musical The Life, which was extremely moving, and definitely piqued my interest.

Also, for those of us who haven't seen the film or heard the recorded version of the song, I am sure something was lost by only seeing a live performance of the song--the sound at the Oscars wasn't very good, and all of the songs sounded less powerful (judging from In the Deep, which I have heard before in Crash, and translating to the other songs, which I had not heard until last night) than they really are.

[SixStrings]

31. "I would suggest that anyone who thinks Hip Hop...

is not music, or wishes for it to die, to get off of your racist ass and go see the movie before you judge it."

Wow. Yes, I think Hip-Hop is not music and I wish it would die.
You've got the g-dammed nerve to tell me I'm racist? Would it change your opinion if I told you I was black?
Only a person who would post such friggin' nonsense as your OP and chastise anyone for not thinking like you, is a bigot and a racist.
Spare us your moral outrages.