My 5 year old and his substitute teacher- Am I right to be upset?

[lady raven]

My son is a high- achieving student and is NEVER in trouble at school. We have taught him that "honesty is the best policy" and it's sticking well so far. Frankly, I have never known him to lie and I believe EVERY WORD of this.

He came home today in a BAD mood. I asked him what was wrong and he told me that the sub was mean. I asked him what happened, and he told me that he had wet his pants because she wouldn't let him go to the bathroom.

His classroom has its own bathroom and an "open door" policy when it comes to using it. If someone's not in there and you have to go, you go. You don't have to ask. They were writing in their journals this afternoon and my son got up to go to the bathroom. She stopped him and asked why he was out of his chair. He told her he needed to use the bathroom and she told him no, to get back to his seat. He did what he was told, asked a few minutes later, and was told no again. He held it as long as he could and then wet his pants a little bit.

THEN he told me that they were working on art and he was done with his coloring and cutting and started to glue (His regular teacher lets him do this at his pace rather than having to wait for everyone else). Then he remembered that she told them not to glue until she told them it was OK. He went up to her and "told on himself" (his words) and said he was sorry that he forgot and that he had started gluing but stopped himself when he remembered. He told me that her response to that was to move him to a table on the other side of the room from everyone for the rest of the afternoon (art time is in the last 30 minutes of school), in effect a "time out". (While I don't expect the school to coddle him, the reaction he would have received from ME is "thank you for being honest" and a reminder to follow directions next time)

He said that just before walking the kids to the area where the parents collect their children, she announced to the class "I've had it with you", apparently directed at everyone.

OK, am I wrong to be upset?

This sub will be there tomorrow. I told my son that tomorrow if he needs to pee, that he is to respectfully tell her that his mother told him he could use the bathroom when he needed to. I told him that if he gets in trouble for doing it, to ask her RIGHT THEN to send him to the office. The school counselor is our pastor's wife and we are going to speak to her tomorrow before school about what happened at school today.

My son was really in a rotten mood and said he doesn't want to go to school tomorrow (He LOVES school) and I'm frankly appalled that this woman, who seems to have no ability to deal with 5 and 6 year olds, is substituting in a kindergarten classroom. They aren't there to be babied, but I think she definitely crossed the line regarding the bathroom and the "I've had it with you" comment.

Signed,
A pissed off mom

[Ravenseye]

1. Sounds reasonable

Your reaction, not the subs, that is...I think what you said is good. I'd talk to the counselor and raise my concerns, but also tell my child that if they have to go to the bathroom, to just go and ask to be sent to the office.

[lady raven]

4. Thank you

I was hoping that I wasn't out of line to be upset, but that wouldn't change how I feel anyway. We are going up there a little early tomorrow to talk to the counselor. Maybe they will have a word with the sub before school starts and maybe help prevent another bad day.

[KitchenWitch]

2. You have every right to be upset

I understand the need for the sub to establish rules for the class that may differ from those that your son's regular teacher enforces, however, she put his health in danger by preventing him from going to the bathroom when he needed to.

[lady raven]

6. I think so too!

In this case, the biggest problem was pants- wetting, but that's embarrassing even if not a threat to his health.

I would understand a LITTLE more if they weren't used to an "open door" bathroom policy, but they are used to being able to go any time they need to, so this was very difficult for him today.

I do know I'm packing an extra set of clothes in his backpack tomorrow just in case.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. As one who thinks that the "Christians" have turned schools into prisons,

my opinion is this - as it was my mother's - I think you did right to tell your son that if he has to pee, he goes pee, and fuck whatever the teacher says, and then the parents bails the kid out later with a long string of obscene and foul language directed at the principal if need be.

That teacher was totally out of line; also, it seems like that teacher really isn't trained to deal with small kids and doesn't like them.

If it were my kid, and knowing that that bitch was only gonna be there for one more day, I'd tell my kid that he was prefectly clear to disobey any bullshit rule and act like his regular teacher allows; and let him know that she might try to punish him, but that, to the best of your ability, you will defend him to the principal.

[lady raven]

7. !

Thank you for the support! Fortunately, I don't think we'll have a problem in the office- We have a good relationship with the school and know everyone there well. The principal "runs a tight ship" there, but she is reasonable and we like her a LOT.

I don't think we have anything to worry about with them- My goal is just to save my son as much misery as possible in class tomorrow- That's why I told him to ask to go to the office immediately, because they will know what is going on and probably prevent him from being punished.

I don't know this sub- She might be an otherwise nice person- But I know that someone who might be a WONDERFUL high school teacher might be an absolute failure with kindergarteners, and this woman certainly does NOT seem suited to be working with children this age.

I have told my son that my husband and I will stand up for him and do our best to make tomorrow better for him. I can't lie - There IS some temptation on some level to let him stay home tomorrow, but I don't think teaching him to run away from his problems is the way to go either.

[Redstone]

5. Good job. That teacher sounds like a miserable person, and

miserable people should not be teaching five-year-olds.

And her "I've had it" comment was absolutely unprofessional.

Redstone

[lady raven]

8. I totally agree!

Thank you! I thought the "I've had it" comment was bad too. It's something I've said before to my husband in a fit of frustration, for example, but I'm not a substitute teacher saying that to an entire classroom full of 5 and 6 year olds!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. Have a "chat" with the teacher

Fill her in on what she doesn't know about your son. Make sure she understands that he's to be treated as the jewel he obviously is. His "telling on himself" is all I need to know about that little boy. He's choice.

I'd also let her know that she is in no way to interfere with his usual routine - in any way. After all, he'll be there when she's gone.

THEN, I'd go to the school principal and file a complaint. I'd write a letter to the head of the school district. I'd make sure copies went to the sub, by the way. And I'd send copies of all of these letters to the school board.

See, someone like this needs to be documented right away, so that her "teaching" career comes to a necessary end. Someone like this isn't fit to deal with kids, and needs to be removed pronto.

With my kids, teachers got one strike. One. And then they were out. Traumatizing children, embarrassing them - that shit's just not acceptable. Not at all.

Good luck.

[HEyHEY]

10. Of course you should be - go stomp a mudhole in her ass

That is totally inexcusable.

[erinlough]

11. As a teacher I will ask you to please...

call the school, talk to the principal and ask them to intervene with the sub. Some subs are notoriously unable to think rationally (like it sounds that his regular teacher does). The Principal and the teacher don't always know what the sub says when she is alone in the room. Please don't make your 5 year old deal with this because this is a problem of adult making.

Personally this is the reason I have 125 sick days accumulated which I never use and 10 each year that I just throw away. I hate the things that subs do when I'm away. Good Luck, your instincts are correct.

[fishwax]

13. yeah, good point

i'm sure the teacher would want to know (if he/she doesn't already) how this particular sub handles such situations. Of course, teachers don't always have a choice in what kind of sub they get, as the pickings are often quite thin ...

[lady raven]

30. Thank you!

I saw your response after I had already spoken with the people in the office. The vice principal called me today and told me that they were going to visit with her and might want me to be there so that we can all meet.

Tomorrow, I am going to talk to his regular teacher (who is now back) to let her know what has happened in case she hasn't been told.

I have to say I am very happy about the way the school is handling this so far.

[huskerlaw]

12. No, you're not wrong

to be upset.

I used to work at a child development center...and I was a nanny. I've dealt with my fair share of 3-7 year olds. It is BEYOND ridiculous to tell a 5 year old they can't use the bathroom. Unless the kid has a habit of asking every 10 minutes, or they just had a bathroom break...common sense times like that. Obviously that wasn't the case with your son. You might want to ask him if she treated any of his classmates this way--presumably he wasn't the only one who tried to use the bathroom without asking, given their usual policy. You might find yourself an ally that way.

What I would suggest is that you talk to the sub before you go to to the principal tomorrow. Kindly discuss the bathroom incident and say something like, "I'm not sure if you were aware of the policy but..." It's possible that she honestly didn't know the policy and, since she apparently isn't comfortable with young children, thought that the only way to control them was to be an overbearing bitch. See how she reacts to that. You may find that she's really a decent person who typically subs high school and found herself in over her head today. How you approach the principal is going to be different than if, say, she goes off on what a little shit your kid is.

Good luck...let us know how it goes.

[lady raven]

14. Here's how it went- both good and VERY, VERY BAD

I was thinking that I hoped that the case was that this person is a normal, nice person who just isn't cut out to substitute in kindergarten. Now I think that at the VERY least she is a raging incompetent who has no business working in an elementary school.

Here's why: Things were both good and bad today...
I was unable to speak to anyone this morning before school, so I went to do it when I picked him up.

The bad news first... The way they do things at this school is that when school is out, the class is led by the teacher to a designated waiting area outside to wait for the parents to arrive. They are supervised by the teacher until the last child has gone.

Today, I arrived just as the class was being led outside by the substitute. I was in a bit of a hurry to get inside and talk with the counselor or whoever they determined to be the person I needed to talk to. I was also still angry and hoped to avoid a confrontation, so I was very focused on getting him and getting to the office. I walked up to my son while he was in line, took his hand, and walked off with him. SHE DID NOT EVEN NOTICE. I figured that out immediately, and kept looking back as we disappeared from view and kept walking, wondering what would happen when she noticed- SHE NEVER NOTICED THAT HE WAS EVEN GONE, MUCH LESS THAT SHE HADN'T CONFIRMED THAT I WAS HIS MOTHER! I could have been a fucking CHILD MOLESTER or psycho child killer and he would be GONE.

Needless to say, when I got into the school office, my blood was boiling and I was fighting against my body, trying to stop the involuntary shaking, so I'm glad that the person I was sent to first was the school counselor, who, by a great stroke of luck, is a wonderful lady who also happens to be the wife of our pastor. She knows me AND my son well. I know she isn't going to think I'm some sort of raging nut, and also I knew that she would help me feel more calm. EVERYONE in the office knows my son and they know he's a good kid and has never been in trouble, which was also good to know going in.


She called the assistant principal in and another friend of ours, who works for the Department of Human Services and is the school- based social worker. I started off with the story about not being noticed taking him out of line.

I told the story as calmly as I possibly could, taking a "just the facts Ma'am" approach except when I stated that I was so angry about her carelessness with my son's safety that I could hardly see straight.

They were shocked and are taking this VERY seriously.

We also told them ALL of the details that he told me about yesterday, and they are taking THOSE seriously too. THe counselor AND the social worker both said to me that none of the three things that happened on Monday was OK and they took detailed notes. There will be (if there hasn't already been by now) discussion with the principal ASAP.

I never want this woman near my son again! I know this makes me sound like a bitch, but I want her fired YESTERDAY. I don't care how nice she might be otherwise- My son could have been kidnapped today and it would have been her fault (as well as, of course, the abductor's). That's more than enough for me. I am going to call the school board tomorrow and find out if this has been reported to them, and if it has not, I am going to tell them myself.

After what happened today, there is NO question in my mind that she does not have any business in an elementary school. She compromised my son's safety today in a way that I consider to be inexcusable.

My son's teacher is very good and very attentive, and I feel secure with his safety when SHE is there. But this incident shook me to the core in regard to his safety with a substitute. I have the feeling that there are going to be more discussions with school personnel required before I can have ANY level of comfort with his safety.

Anyway, so there you have it. The good news- That they agreed and are taking this seriously. And the bad- that something happened today that makes everything that happened YESTERDAY seem like nothing.

My apologies if this was rambling. It's nearly 5 AM and I haven't been to sleep. Yesterday was a hell of a day.

[BikeWriter]

20. Whew! Your school is very lucky they took you seriously!

I'd have been on the warpath, too!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

41. Okay....I'm a little confused here......

You said you took your son's hand and led him away, admitting you were angry, but trying to avoid confrontation. Obviously, she should have stopped you if she was watching (unless she knew who you were from the day before) but had she, wouldn't that have almost certainly led to a confrontation?

I agree with you whole heartedly on every point otherwise. I imagine this is what Condi Rice would be if she were a kindergarten teacher. I'm just trying to figure out how you went from one second wanting to get away from there without her seeing to getting mad about it.

[northofdenali]

15. You are being more than reasonable, Mom -

If I were in a similar situation I'd probably have marched into the classroom and yanked the teacher out the door by the hair.

Not only are you not wrong to be upset, you would be justified in insisting this sub be dismissed for cause. She crossed EVERY line ("I've had it with you" - the bitch actually SAID THAT TO A 5 YEAR OLD????) - and I'd certainly have her ass for it.

I hope your little one will be okay shortly - he should know that this is NOT his fault, and he is to be commended for his politeness and honesty. Give him a big :hug: from the far North, okay?

I think, after the second day's incident, I'd have been tempted to use my moose huntin' rifle on the bitch. Hopefully, she will not only be barred from your son's school, she'll be barred from teaching at all. I personally think she should be immediately terminated, and a very strong letter placed in her personnel jacket detailing these incidents.

Have a glass of wine, you deserve it for raising such a wonderful little boy. :hug:

[lady raven]

17. I sure will

And thank you for the support. Yes, she actually said that- And not just to a 5 year old- a WHOLE CLASS full of them!

He knows we stand by him on this and that even though he did make a mistake in forgetting the instruction regarding gluing, we are extremely proud that when he remembered he stopped and was honest about his mistake. I am very , very proud of him, and I try to make sure that I let him know it as often as I can. It's something I almost never heard from MY parents and that's a mistake I won't be inheriting.

Thankfully, tomorrow, his regular teacher will be back!

Although I believe 100% that my concerns were heard and validated today, I am not going to let this go. What happened today is too serious to not insist that something be done about it.

Thank you for the compliment on my sweetie. A big hug is coming his way for you and I think I WILL have a glass of wine- That's a wonderful idea :-)

[Jamastiene]

16. This story has hit one of my hot buttons.

I have ALWAYS been against the policy that the schools I went to had and that some other schools have of not letting students go to the bathroom when they need to. It's just plain wrong to deny them the right to do what Mother Nature says it is time to do. It's a bodily function that should NOT be denied EVER. If they need to go, no one should have the right to humiliate them that way. You are not wrong to be upset by this. I think you should sue the sub for denying your son his right to his own bodily functions and say it's a medical issue. Someone somewhere sometime needs to make an issue of this. I feel it's the only way to ever end some school rules that deny students bathroom rights. It's not healthy to sit there with your eyeballs floating because some asshole won't let you do what your body says it's time to go do. That's just how I feel about that issue. You son needs a million hugs. Will you give him one for me for being a good honest kid who tried to follow the impossible rules? I'm glad you told him to go to the bathroom when he needs to. You are a good parent for standing up for your kid. I wish someone had done that when I was in school. I probably wouldn't have had half the problems in the bathroom that I have had in life so far if someone had said just let her go when she needs to. It wrong to deny someone a medical right like that. Period.

[lady raven]

18. Thank you!

My niece has problems related to urinary retention. She now has chronic constipation and bladder issues, and her doctor says it's because she has been holding her bladder until she can't anymore. She is only a year older than my son.

Fortunately, my son does not have bathroom problems, and I think that one of the reasons is that we have never made him wait and his school has the policy, at least with the little ones, that they can go when they want (They have their own private bathrooms in the classroom for a reason).

I don't think suing is an option for us this time, but I did make sure to tell the people in the office that I feel very strongly about him being able to go to the bathroom when he needs to, and they agreed. I also intend to talk to his teacher about it and ask her to start putting in her lesson plans for substitutes that the kids can use the bathroom whenever they want to.

I am not sure what their policy is with the older kids, but I know that pre- k and kindergarten both have an open door bathroom policy.

I remember being denied bathroom use many times during my school years and I'm glad that it seems that times are changing. I was not a disruptive student, I didn't make frequent requests to use the restroom, yet the school and teachers were very rigid in their denial of bathroom usage. I don't get that- I didn't then and I don't know. I fail to see how kids can learn better when all they can think about is how badly their bladder hurts. I totally agree with you.

[Random_Australian]

19. I am sure the world will be a brighter place for

3 reasons:
1: You'll get that sub outski-o-ramad - And he class will be happier
2: You'll (Metaphorically, hopefully) Kick thirteen point four types of bejusus from anything that threatens to harm your son... which sounds like it will involve making schools a much better place
3: Yes, you've reason enough to think your son's the world now... but just think of the bloke you'll get when the kiddywink takes after his Ma... who sounds like a very strong role model...

(Mental image of many things to be proud of)

ie. :woohoo: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[lady raven]

29. Wow :-)

That's such a nice thing to say!!! Thanks so much!

[kwassa]

22. Older kids use bathroom breaks to get out of class and roam the halls and

avoid work. It happens every day of the week. They always, always, always claim "It's an emergency!" It is often predictable exactly who will need to go to the bathroom.

That said, older kids can go to the bathrooms in the middle of the class with a hall pass, one at a time. The other strategy often used to avoid class is for two friends to go to the bathroom together.

It is a tricky issue as a teacher.

I would never restrict a 5-year old from going to the bathroom, though. They don't have that kind of manipulative minds, yet, though I've had problems with even them wandering the halls.

[lady raven]

31. One thing I like about his class

Fortunately, his classroom has its own private bathroom, so there's no worry about hall wandering.

[Jamastiene]

38. If they abuse the situation, then by all means

make them prove they gotta go somehow, but if someone has a legitimate need to go, let 'em go. Seems like there should be some way to know which is a legitimate request to use the bathroom and which is an abuse of bathroom privileges. I can see why you may not want them to abuse the policy though. I just know how bad it feels to really have to go, ya know?

[LisaL]

21. Of course you are right to be upset.

Maybe you could contact the school. WTF was that woman thinking, not allowing a five year old to go to the restroom?

[Orsino]

23. A couple of caveats that might apply.

Without casting aspersions on any of the students, it just might be that they were acting up, enough so that an adult eyewitness might have understood the "I've had it with you." Substitute teacher = party time, usually.

While I won't try to excuse the rest of the teacher's actions, one lesson the kids were learning is that different teachers have different standards of discipline. If it is possible, warn kids that the substitute doesn't know them as well as their usual teacher, and that they should be extra polite and attentive--at least on the first day. Of course, most subs come in at the last minute, so parents usually find out after the fact, as you did. A good principal will prepare the class, and a good substitute will also explain very carefully that things will be a bit different.

It just might be that the substitute in question wasn't used to kids that young, and expected more bladder control than is realistic. If the regular teacher wants "anytime" bathroom breaks allowed, that should be posted on the classroom wall.

It's the lengthy time-out that seems completely unreasonable to me.

I like the instructions you gave your son, but it might be even more prudent to call the principal ASAP, so that your son doesn't have to be seen as challenging the sub's authority.

[lady raven]

33. I understand

Thank you for the advice :-) My original intention was to speak with the office first thing Tuesday morning to tell them that if he got sent to them it was because he was doing what his mother told him to do. As things worked out, I had to talk to them at the end of the day, but when I did I found out that they agreed with me.

I have no doubt that there had to have been kids acting up. I know from what I have seen that there ARE some disruptive kids in that class, most definitely. BUT I still think the yelling of "I've had it with you" was unprofessional, and it should not have been directed at the whole class.

I am going to suggest to his regular teacher that she make sure the future subs are aware of the bathroom policy, in the hopes of avoiding this sort of problem in the future.

I was hoping (until the unforgiveable incident on Tuesday) that this whole thing was just a matter of her not being suited to teach kids that age.

My son's regular teacher is in the process of some sort of big certification and is gone more often than most for conferences. This is the first time that things with the sub haven't been wonderful.

In any event, I have really pushed the issue regarding my taking my son without being noticed, and the school and school board seem to be taking that VERY seriously.

[ImNotBuying]

24. I'd be screaming!

That is so infuriating. These people on a power trip don't understand the harm they cause to these kids. What do these people think they are accomplishing? How is a child supposed to be able to pay attention when they are preoccupied with trying not to wet themselves! I'll stop now or I'll be fuming all day. These kinds of stories get me worked up. I can't imagine anyone treating one of my children with such disrespect.

[helderheid]

25. I would be so pissed!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

26. I would unleash hell on the sub if I were you.

I'm not one to be an interfering parent, but this crossed the line.

[AlCzervik]

27. thats ridiculous!! That sub must be new to working with small children

because they have to go a lot more than the older ones, her behavior is unacceptable.

[jakefrep]

28. Next time that idiot subs for your child's class...

(if there is a next time) tell your son to steal her key to the faculty washroom. Turnabout is fair play.

:evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

[lady raven]

34. I don't think there will be a next time

In light of the incident of her not noticing my son being removed from her care, from what I have been told by the vice principal, it looks likely that at the very least she will not be substituting in elementary school again.

But I like your idea!

[Kire]

37. Way to go.

I don't have kids, but this is a riveting story. That sub has no business in elementary school.

She can tell the unemployment office she's "had enough".

[TrogL]

32. Complain to the school board about the sub

She's obviously teaching at the wrong level or shouldn't be in the classroom at all.

/me is a former teacher

[lady raven]

35. I did today :-)

Them and the school... The impression I get at this point is that they are taking this seriously. So far, I'm happy with the situation.

[chookie]

36. You are being very rational

The behavior of the teacher is highly inappropriate. Both you and your son have a right to be upset. I hope you will resolve the matter in a satisfactory manner. Good luck.

[Maddy McCall]

39. Put a note in his pocket.

Write a note telling the sub that your son is to be allowed to use the bathroom when needed, and if she has a problem with that, she needs to take him to the office and call you.

[ReadTomPaine]

40. I would have made sure that she learned what it's like to pee herself.

On edit - looking at earlier posts, it seems I'm not the only one with this idea!