Where is all this fear coming from?

[Katherine Brengle]

Last night I was reading a book and in it, I came across an essay that spoke to me after days of watching GD descend into a 24-hour gender war/flamefest.

So, I got out of bed and came in my living room and posted a snippet from the article.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x622768

I tried... apparently it is useless to try to get people to work together--even progressive people. No wonder conservatives are so screwed up...

[Ravenseye]

1. I'm a man and I'll talk

I've just stayed clear of GD for awhile. I find it too full of hypocracy lately about a number of topics...

Anyway read your post. What exactly are you looking to engage on here, since I missed most of the other threads? Men's attitudes towards what?

I'll spill the beans honestly, but I don't know what you are asking...

[KitchenWitch]

5. I believe she is talking about the abortion wars.

[Katherine Brengle]

6. Well, the Reader's Digest version is...

The OP was boiled down to being a diatribe on pornography, which if you read it, it clearly is not. There is one mention of pornography (one sentence) which simply states that the author of the article made some comments on the impact of porn on the male worldview.

The rest of the post dealt with the prevalence of rape in our culture and how we need to change the course of gender relations.

The responses are largely based on that one sentence, rather than on the much greater problem of sexual assault.

So it occurred to me that maybe the people replying just couldn't handle the truth os it, and decided to lash out instead of engaging in a serious conversation.

I guess I just expected better of Dues (not universal agreement, but a willingness to engage in conscientious discussion instead of infighting)...

[Ravenseye]

11. I guess this is my problem

I'm not sure what you really want to talk about in that post. You sort of throw that article out there as food for thought, and when someone brings up one aspect, you tamp it down. That's fine, but what itches the back of my brain on this one is that I get the feeling there IS some specifcally about this topic you wish to discuss, but I just can't figure it out. Maybe my mind isn't working today.

I think people bring up pornography because it's the one thing that there really is disagreement on. You even state that you can't separate Rape and Pornography. That's a big item right there where there is disagreement. That kind of thing will engage certain people, including myself in the right situation.

As far as people handling the 'truth' of it...Well just because you think something jives doesn't mean I do. From the studies I've done, while 'initiation' can really change how a society acts on a gender level, there are common underpinnings throughout all of this which is that we are nothing more than highly evolved apes. Putting something completely in the initiation camp takes away from any biologic underpinnings for our behavior, which there must be.

I do agree with the conclusions though about verbal communication being an absolute necessity, but I feel that it is on the part of BOTH men and women in order to sort things out. We're all different. Each and every one of us. Only communicating HOW we are different in an understanding and respectfull way will resolve many things. It won't resolve all of them though. Sometimes people are just broken mentally.

You can see a broken arm, but you can't see necessarily a broken brain. Emotional damage can't be dismissed in these discussions either.

[ghostsofgiants]

2. My guess would be Lee Ving and the boys.

Or Sierra Games.

[dpbrown]

3. I think Mongo made some good points

I don't usually take the arguments in GD very seriously.

Looks like you wanted to make the point that men are improperly initiated, and then someone made a post about porn and you took the bait and argued the merits of porn with him. After that, your claim to have just wanted dialog rang kind of hollow so you weren't able to get your post back on track.

I haven't read any of the other posts in GD, so I don't know the context of the running argument.

[Katherine Brengle]

7. I certainly did take the bait--that was my mistake--

but I argue that in a civilized climate of respectful discussion, the bait would never have been floated...

[RandomKoolzip]

4. I didn't interpret it as fear....

I just registered it as frustration and annoyance.

[Katherine Brengle]

8. Either way, if progressives are unwilling to communicate about these

things, it is no wonder our society has descended to the point that it has.

Being "annoyed" at a discussion of the epidemic nature of rape in the United States (and the conditions of society that allow it to flourish) is, imo, just pathetic.

[RandomKoolzip]

10. I think men are willing to communicate up to a point....

Most guys can get on board with the whole deal: rape is bad, yes, we need to educate each other about rape and systemic sexism, and the negative effects of gender roles, etc. Almost every man I know agrees with that, and I, personally have done my part in the past to make the guys around me wise up: I've played drums in a riot grrrl band, done benefits for Take Back the Night and other organizations, and passed bell hooks (and other authors) books to men who seemed willing to learn more.

It's when porn is added to the mix that guys get edgy, and for good reason. No matter how much evolution humanity experiences, guys are always going to want to look at pretty girls (or pretty boys, in the case of the gay dudes.) And that will never ever change. Sorry. To a lot of women this last item fills them with horror and loathing, and I can understand why, but it's not going to change any time soon.

[realisticphish]

9. Honestly

I think what happened was this...

You came in and said "stop all the vitriole, and argument," and then posted, basically, that men are wrong, that men need to fix themselves. This isn't exactly a friendly position to have in an already heated area.

I myself don't know about the validity of that article, and really couldn't care less. I've gotten drawn into "Gender Wars" before, and I'm fucking done with it. I've been insulted too many times, been told too many times that I'm buying into the corporate-macho image just because I like sports, and think that women are attractive. No more.