Can we talk about big, and I mean BIG, families?

[Maddy McCall]

My father was one of six kids, but I'm not talking about Depression, or even fifties, era big families. I'm talking about big families today. (And can we leave that family with sixteen kids out of this discussion? Honestly, I'm sick of hearing about them. Let's make this about our impressions of big families.)

Let's be honest.

What do you think when you see a big family--a mother and father with, say, eight or nine kids. Let's say, for example, that you're eating out at a local restaurant, and in comes a couple of parents with children ranging from newborn to toddler, then stairsteps up to teens?

The first thing I think is, "I pity that woman." She'll always be dependent on that man, and she probably subscribes to the 'must submit' tenets in the bible. She'll never be educated, except for 'how to change a diaper in 20 seconds.' She'll never have a weekend out of town with her girlfriends. Kids are probably named Esther, Jebediah, Noah, and so forth. I bet even talking about birth control is taboo in that family, to the point that even imagining what a condom looks like is a sin against nature for which one must heavily atone.

Most of the time, when I see a huge family, they are dressed in Pentecostal or Holiness atire--girls in dresses and long sleeves, boys in pants and long sleeves. Evidently they are members of churches that teach women to birth babies, stay in the home with those babies, never question the husband when he makes decisions, including when to produce another child.

I feel sorry for women who can't have sex for the pleasure of sex. I wonder if they even receive sexual pleasure (yes, orgasms) from their husbands, or if their husbands are in it only to get the sperm out, into the uterus, so that another baby can be made. Can you imagine every sexual encounter you have being tied only to a painful childbirth nine months later? I just can't fathom that lifestyle.

I don't even know, on a personal friendly level, any women with that many children. Maybe if I could talk to them and hear what they think about it, my ideas about them would change.

So what is your impression of these families? What do you silently think to yourself when a family of that size walks by?

[pitohui]

1. yeah, agreed, they're losers

that's exactly what i think

[miss_american_pie]

2. I know a Catholic family with ten kids

(one set of twins)

And a Baptist family who have eight kids now, I think.

It's not a choice I would make, but at least in the case of the first family they wife does not seem to be subservient.

I think that reproductive rights work both ways, though.

[salin]

6. I would agree in principal

(per reproductive rights - when not in a subservient area) - just have to comment, as I do down thread - that I can not recall, in adulthood, knowing or seeing a family with more than four or five kids.

[miss_american_pie]

10. It's not so common that it isn't a shock

In addition to the my previous post, there is a family I sometimes see in the grocery store that dress, hmm, not sure exactly what denomination it is...

Anyhow, it's the wife, a son, and then three or four girls, and the dress strikes me as odd because the son wears hoodies and jeans while the girls look like the stepped off a Little House on the Prairie set. I've certainly jumped to conclusions about them.

[Maddy McCall]

8. There is no way that she can stand on her own, so she IS dependent....

on her husband until the children are grown and out of the home. Do the women you know have careers or any hope of having careers?

I think that reproductive rights work both ways, too. Still, you have to acknowledge that, with every child born, the woman becomes that much more dependent on the man.

[miss_american_pie]

18. One does, one doesn't

Both got degrees before they had the kids.

We're just discussing financial dependence, right? I'm not sure how heavily the number of kids figures into that. Once you're out of the workforce, even for a short time, seems to impact earning potential pretty heavily.

[Maddy McCall]

28. Yes, I agree.

[politicat]

45. I know an Orthodox Jewish family where the wife supports the family...

She has an advanced degree in computer science; he's a rabbi. He stays home with their children and homeschools the younger ones (since we don't have a yeshiva in the area) while she brings home the pot roast. Their community is not large enough to support a full time rabbi. They have eight children, all of them very, very bright and articulate.

They're an abberation, however. If she decided to leave him, as would be her right under Talmudic law if he harmed her, she and the children would be financially fine, while her husband would be sleeping in the synagogue.

[LostinVA]

97. Do you know that Orthodox Jewish men are supposed to pleasure their wives

Every Friday? Including making sure the woman has an orgasm? Or so a rabbi once told me.

[liontamer]

90. my mom had four kids and is still not "dependent" on her husband

My mom is an intelligent educated woman who raised me to value intelligence and education for the freedom they provide. The decision to have children isn't what's trapping these women.

[liontamer]

91. your opinion of women seems really low

how do you know there is no way she can stand alone. Obviously she'd prefer to have a partner's help but that doesn't mean that she's helpless. Not all relationships are abusive; ideally one can have a family without being trapped.

[DS1]

3. I think it's fucking obnoxious and selfish and greedy

[Maddy McCall]

9. You said what I wouldn't say.

But exactly what I think. :thumbsup:

[WindRavenX]

20. yuppers

There are so many kids out there who don't have a home, and yet people breed more of themselves instead of taking in a kid whose life could be so bright and happy.

Sure, they have the right to have as many kids as they want. I don't think it's right. I think it's horrible that in this world, in this age, kids are starving to death and dying because they don't have a loving home.

So yes, I think it's obnoxious, but for me, if anything, it's selfish.

Flame away.

I plan to adopt, fwiw, when I am ready.

[Katherine Brengle]

46. I agree--even if it sounds mean--people who want that many...

children should adopt a few and give some hurting kids homes.

I, for one, have on child of my own, and if my husband and I ever want another one, we'll adopt.

[liontamer]

119. in a big family, how do you know some(or all) weren't adopted n/t

[Katherine Brengle]

121. I was talking specifically about those that...

do not have any adopted children.

My husband's parents have 7 kids, and four of them are adopted, so I know that there are good people out there who do this.

[Redstone]

4. I don't like to sound biased, but I get the same impressions that you do.

And when I think about the families on my Irish side who have a ton of kids, it does seem to work out pretty much like you described.

Funny thing is, the kids who came from the families where they had 8 or 10 siblings, all have two kids at the most themselves.

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

12. Unless the father is in a very well-paid job, the kids have to do...

without. And I'm not saying that "doing without" is a bad thing, because I know I spoil my son beyond what he NEEDS.

In the Depression, large families doing without was the norm. Today, though, it must be tough on the kids in those families to be children in the 2000s, but to have to live as if it's the 1930s. I bet they do leave their homes and find mates who will agree to one or two kids. I certainly can understand that.

[grace0418]

86. Money can't buy individual attention.

Unless Dad can buy a time machine, two adults cannot provide a dozen kids with enough individual attention no matter how hard they try.

[LostinVA]

99. A friend of mine was the oldest of eight kids

She pretty much stopped having a childhood at five... she always helped act as the "mother" to her siblings, which meant she really did without. No after school activities (even in high school), no staying over at friends', even often no birthday parties, etc. on the weekend. It was feeding changing, bathing, etc. She had to go to an in-state university, and the one she choose was literally the one that was furtherest away from home. It wasn't the one she really wanted to go to, but it was far enough away she couldn't be guilted into coming home every weekend... even though she WAS expected to come home at least once a month and help. While she was in college. With a job.

She's 44 now, and has zero kids. And STILL feels responsible for her siblings in a very "mom like" way.

[salin]

5. Frankly, I don't see many large families

not many beyond four kids. I can not, in my memory, recall seeing such a family since I was a kid (and the neighbors had a six kid family). I have lived mostly in urban areas - and I would guess taht it is just too economically infeasable. I am sure such families dwell in this area - but they aren't terribly common.

*I write from central Indiana, for those not familiar.*

[Maddy McCall]

14. Rural or suburban Mississippi.

We ate at the pizza place Saturday night. Saw a family with 8 kids.

Ate at a local burger place tonight--another family with 7 or eight kids.

And these mothers look to be in their late twenties--well, they look like 28 year old women on whom repeated childbirth has taken its toll.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

7. I try not to judge too much

In the Southwest, most of the people who have large families are Mexican-Americans because it's a part of their culture. As long as they can take care of the kids, I have no problem with it.

[Maddy McCall]

17. I know that I'm awfully judgmental about it. I admit it.

I try to put myself in the woman's place, but, it's just hard to do.

[uppityperson]

11. I look on in amazement that anyone could survive with that many kids

I know some who are fundies, but then I know some fundies who have only 1 child by choice. I know a large family who just chose that and are happy with it. I know 1 large family that has had, oh, probably 10 kids, adopted them all and watch them in amazement wondering how tired they must get.

[Maddy McCall]

19. Most of the fundamentalist Baptists here have two or three.

Four is rare. More than four is unheard of.

[uppityperson]

24. I came from a large family, large by choice, may influence my opinions

have only 1 myself, wanted another but it just didn't happen so I got to spoil 1. I have more of a tendency to judge them, prejudge them perhaps, by how they dress and walk (who walks first, are they playing or subdued, etc)

[Oeditpus Rex]

13. I assume they're fundies

or otherwise subscribe to some religious or other sort of tenet that forbids or frowns upon birth control and/or preaches "Be fruitful and multiply."

Or else they're just too fuckin' lazy and/or stupid to use birth control.

Either way, I think it's selfish and irresponsible in this day and age.



Well, wait — it could also be that birth control is not a viable option financially. But that poses the question, "Why the hell not?"

[Maddy McCall]

21. Health department here dispenses it like candy.

There's no trouble getting condoms AND birth control pills here. All you have to do is walk into the clinic and request them.

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. I doubt that's a universal

And in areas where birth control is freely available, ignorance could be a factor — of the availability or of how to properly use it.

[Gormy Cuss]

15. I think it's sad.

Sad that either they think it's better than having fewer biological kids or that they're following the teachings of any faith. I say that as a child of a large family raised by parents of even larger families.

I wouldn't think to legislate them into having smaller families. They have the freedom to choose even when I think the choice is a dumb one.

[Maddy McCall]

23. No, I certainly don't think legislation is the answer.

Honestly, I don't think that there is a solution, because as long as churches teach the faithful that contraceptives are sinful, they will never use them.

[Redstone]

16. But there is this one little thing...

Mrs R and I often joke with each other, saying that it's good that we we met when we were in our late thirties, because if we had met when we were in our early twenties, we would have had seven or eight kids...

We're not fundies, or even Catholic. We just really, really like kids.

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

25. LOL.

Redstone, under no circumstances can I imagine myself even with two or three kids. I like my kid, but, honestly, I'm not a big kid person.

[Redstone]

30. Well, we do say that to each other, but I'm not sure we'd have actually

done it. These days, what I tell her is that "we have all the kids we can stand," which happens to be two of them.

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

36. Two is nice.

I'd say it's ideal.

:hi:

[Redstone]

40. Especially eleven years apart. When the younger one is ready to move out,

the older one should be providing us some grandbabies to spoil the hell out of and send home to Mom and Dad.

Hey, now wait just a cotton-pickin minute here. I know there are plenty of people younger than me who have grandchildren, but I'm not old enough for that.

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

42. I'm not "old" enough to have a 12 year old son.

I know what you mean, RS. :D

[China_cat]

108. Definitely

Because I'm not old enough to have a 17 year old GRANDdaughter. No way, no how.

[LostinVA]

104. I love my cats and niece and nephew --

But, no kids for me! I don't make enough money, anyway...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. having that many kids is self indulgent

especially in a country where most people are atleast somewhat educated

[Maddy McCall]

27. I just feel revulsion when I see them...

and I pity the wife, and make assumptions about the husband.

It is so far from my ability to comprehend, that I just can't even imagine myself in that situation.

[deadparrot]

26. On principle, I don't see anything wrong with it...

If the kids are healthy and happy, and if the parents are responsible in providing for them, it's not up to me to judge.

However...I think there are some unspoken factors at work. First of all, it takes enormous amounts of time and energy to raise *one* child. By the time you get up to nine, ten, or more, it seems hard to believe that there are enough hours in the day to devote to the kids' emotional well-being. Years ago, the focus of child-rearing seemed to be more on discipline and obedience. Today, there's significantly more emphasis placed on the "inner" aspect of a kid's well-being, cultivating an emotional bond between parent and child. For me, it's hard to imagine that the kids in such huge families get the one-on-one time with mom and dad that society seems to require these days.

Also, I think there's an unspoken misogynism going on. I was raised Catholic, so both within my extended family and in the community in which I grew up, large families were present. So often, the dad disappeared off to work and didn't come home until 10PM. The mom was the one locked in the house with a half-dozen or more kids. The mom was responsible for taking care of the kids, and was expected to have dinner on the table for her husband whenever he got home. Of course, one would say it was all part of her job as homemaker, but I found that the burden fell disproportionately on her. If I knew that it was truly fulfilling for the woman, that she had made a truly informed, educated decision to dedicate her life to raising that many children, then all the more power to her. Somehow, I often doubt that's the case.

So, yeah, I'm somewhat hypocritical on the subject. In principle, I don't care, but I do have my doubts.

[Maddy McCall]

31. Yes, to everything you said. Another thing I noticed...

is the parents' reliance on the oldest child to carry a great part of the burden. "Get your sister and brother a high chair. Get kiddie seats for Mary and Jehosiphat. Go get extra plates." Etc.

I almost feel sorry for the older ones, because they seem to be babysitters more than children.

[Broken_Hero]

81. I agree with you, but...

I am the second oldest of 12. I was raised in a mormon household(albiet i'm inactive for ten plus years now). Out of the 12, only 8 of us were under the same household. I have a lot of half brothers/sisters, and divorces and what not which, make the total sibling count 12, plus my mother lost two, DOA(my mother carried 9 times). But, there was 8 siblings, when i was growing up, and I was the oldest of the 8, and I havd experienced some of the feelings, in your post...feeling like a babysitter, and what not, and carrying the burden, but on the flip side. I would have it no other way. I learned to take care of kids, to teach them, to care for them, change diapers, and countless other tidbits, that most people who dont know, plus...they are my brothers and sisters, and I love them.

The oldest, is my half sister Rose, who is 37, i'm 28, the youngest is 12 right now, and I never felt, like their were to many kids, but thats just my humble opinion, my mom is going to be 50 this year, my adoptive father is going to be 64. Growing up, at times, i did hate taking care of my brothers/sisters and what not, but its part of growing up, we all do things that we dont' enjoy, but we endure, and in truth, it wasn't bad at all. Being the oldest(at home, with the kids, my sister Rose, left when i was, 8 or so), I had to deal with responsibility at a young age, and i am glad for that...I would have it no other way.

I have read, all the posts, prior to yours, and most of what I am reading, is, hard to read between the lines, of sarcasm, and serious POV. It seems, most of the people, think because you have a bunch of kids, its church forcing it on you, and what not, and believe me, the mormon church has the stereotypes of that thought, branded upon them. BUt with my parents, my mother, and father agreed to have these kids, and when they decided that enough was enough, my dad got fixed.

I once, asked my father, why did you want so many kids? He responded "Because I love kids, they make me feel young, and they bring me joy" Now, is that bad? In my mind no. My dad, made enough money to take care of all of us, many times over, he was an electrician/powerhouse operator, and my mother stayed at home, until 5 yrs ago. My dad retired early, and she went back into the work force, she has a paralegal degree, and was one before marrying my adoptive father, and now she is a Vet Assistant, doing good, while my father is at home, dealing with kids, a role reversal of sorts...:)

My mother, was a rough one, dealing with all the kids, but I helped out, and my youngers brothers matured, they carried part of the burden as well, but thats family life...if the mom falls, father helps out, if both fall, the kids pitch in, its a dominio effect, and that help shouldnt' be looked down on. I know i lost some of my childhood because i was helping with the family, but i'm a family guy myself, I love kids, and i enjoy interacting with them...

My wife and I are having such a hard time with getting pregnant, that if we don't get preg by January of next year, its adoption road time. I'm adopted and have no qualms about it perse, but if my wife and I could have our own, I would want as many, as I could take care of...at current, we could probably take care of 3 right now...:) And believe me, church has no input or influence on me, to dictate how many kids I should have....:P

Thats just my two cents, i'm sure i'm going to get flamed, and slapped because i was raised mormon and what not, but thats my two cents...flame away, i got smokes, lots o free time...:)

[liontamer]

29. some people just like kids

If I could afford it, I would have a bunch of kids despite my enviromentalist issues. When I see a family with many kids living in poverty I am saddened for them because they're perpetuating a cycle of poverty and shocked that they can't see it. But I think that when I see a poor family with even one kid.

I know that there is a inverse correlation between female education and number of children, but I don't think the kids keep the women dependent. I think women who are not going to have access to higher education or have financial mobility end up having lots of kids because they have nothing to lose.

[Maddy McCall]

34. I don't see how the kids don't keep the woman dependent.

I just can't see how she isn't dependent.

Educational opportunities above the high school level are readily available in the forms of scholarships, grants, etc. I know this, because as a single parent I took advantage of these opportunities.

If I would have had 8 kids, I'd have never divorced my abusive husband. And, had I divorced him, I certainly wouldn't have had the time or the energy to enroll in college.

[liontamer]

88. everybody is seeing an causal effect that I don't

A woman can decide to get educated and establish a career, and then have children. And just because you have a lot of children doesn't mean you need to be a stay at home mom. You could hire help or have a good family support network.

However, a woman who is already dependent on her husband because she lacks education or a career would be pretty screwed even if she didn't have children. It's true that having 8 kids doesn't help, but this woman is already in a bad place

[Katherine Brengle]

55. I have to disagree--

on the dependence issue. My husband and I have one child, and I am heavily dependent upon him financially in order to be able to stay at home and take care of our daughter.

I do not resent him for this--we have a very solid, happy relationship and I know that this isn't forever, it is only for a certain amount of time until she is ready to go to school and all that.

Now, I think that with many children, the dependence angle would increase exponentially. Every additional child adds years of financial dependence on a stay-at-home mother. If there are a dozen children ranging in age from say a year old to 17, then that mother (if she is a stay-at-home mom, which she would have to be barring independent wealth) has been at home for 17 years and will now need to continue staying home for 4 or 5 more. She is likely entering her middle years, not particularly educated and therefore not particularly likely to find a good job that pays enough to make it worth her working at all.

It's a pretty simple math problem...

[Maddy McCall]

63. Exactly.

[liontamer]

89. you don't have to be a stay at home mom

I assume you want to, and in order to do so you have to depend on your family (in this case your husband). If you didn't want to be a stay at home mom, you would be financially independent even after having your daughter. If for some reason you couldn't be financially independent (lack of education, lack of ability to work, or lack of inclination having kids wouldn't be you problem. You'd be dependent on others even if you didn't have kids.

[Katherine Brengle]

122. I don't think you...

understood my post. I chose to stay home and raise my daughter until she is ready to go to school. I have no problem with the choice I have made. At any time, I could change my mind, as well.

But someone who has a dozen children, after the first few, loses the option of changing her mind.

[jpeg]

33. Wow, I don't get that at all

I've had two friends from large families and the families were normal. The parents were cool parents, proud as hell of their kids, and treated each other as equals. The kids were cool. They were encouraged to do what they wanted, they always had friends, very outgoing, very smart.

I've looked at those families and thought it would be cool to grow up in a family like that, but I wouldn't trade my childhood.

I don't know where you live, but I grew up in the 80s in the suburbs of a midwestern city. People knew of these families and others, and I have to say that while we knew most parents *wouldn't* have 10 or 12 kids, no one attributed these parents' actions to the kind of backwards thinking you've discussed. I have to say it sounds like you're projecting.

[Maddy McCall]

35. I live in rural Mississippi. Small city in a rural area.

If you had read the thread, you would have seen that.

I'm just making observations based on what I see.

But I'd like to hear more of this "projecting" of which you speak. Very interesting. What am I projecting? :shrug:

[LostinVA]

106. You're not projecting anything -- people misuse that word ALL the time

Unless you secretly have ten kids and are really Mrs. Duggar's long lost sister!!!

I grew up with lots of big Catholic families (my Mom wasn't stupid -- she was on BC, RC or not!!!)... and EVERY SINGLE family sure as hell wasn't "well adjusted": they didn't have money for basics, the kids -- mainly the girls -- had no life. The mom was always tired... none of the kids had proper attention... so, forget the self indulgent angle. I don't think it's fair to other kids. Kids deserve to be KIDS,a nd they deserve to have as much attention and love as possible.And sorry, if you have eight kids, you do not show them the proper love and attention... no matter how much you want to. It just isn't humanly possible.

[liontamer]

95. welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Deja Q]

37. Must... resist... temptation... to... copycat thread! But I will say this,

:hide:



I have any number of words to say; few of which are good.

But I'm sure I'd get some responses claiming I'm anti-child, bigot (though people forget that excessive breeding can/will happen to anyone of any skin color, white or otherwise - the quantity is the only issue I consider), anti-family, projecting one of my relevant emotions on the topic, et cetera, et cetera...

[Maddy McCall]

38. Just say it.

Hell, I was brutally honest, and I've already been accused of "projecting," whatever that means.
Go for it.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

39. One of my best friends is from a big Irish Catholic family, 8 total kids,

4 brothers 4 sisters. I've met all of them, they're all adults now... and they are a great, great family. Mostly very successful, I don't think any of them were a true blacksheep.

I always assume when I meet families like this that the kids do a lot of raising each other while growing up. This is the only family of this type that I have close personal knowledge of, and they seem very successful to me.

[Maddy McCall]

44. I don't see many of those here. Small city...most of the Catholics....

that I know only have three or four kids. Definitely some form of contraception in play.

The ones I see are always dressed as I described above, which leads me to believe that they are Pentacostals. But even some Pentacostal families I know have only two, three, or four kids.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

53. I, and my friend, grew up in the suburbs of the metropolitan D.C. area.

There really aren't any Pentacostals, or Amish, or other types like that around, at least not in any numbers where you'd ever see them out and about, eating at the next table at IHOP or whatever.

In fact, the only religious type garb I ever remember seeing ANYONE in was yarmulkes worn by Orthodox Jews of which there is a large population where I'm from.

[pitohui]

78. my best friend is from a family of 7 kids, yes, catholic

and the situation is definitely like that doris lessing novel, the fifth child

in high school my neighbor my age across the street was the oldest of 13 kids, her life was spoiled before it began, she never had a chance, you can't raise kids from the time you're a kid yourself and still have time to get an education

but my husband's boss has 10 or 11 kids, i forget, and they do ok, probably has something to do with having a millionaire business owner for a dad tho that makes up for a multitude of sins, indeed, the youngest child may even be the brightest of the bunch, she is a high achiever

[LostinVA]

107. I said this exact thing in a post up thread

[politicat]

41. I am the eldest of eight.

Blended family, true, but still, eight kids. My baby sister was born when I was 17. My mother had three, his second wife had four, and he had one on the side that he had partial custody of. When we trooped out together, I'm sure we looked like a Mormon family from hell.

My father was not a fundie, and wasn't into the whole wifely submission thing, that I know of. But he was abusive, both verbally and physically. He wasn't religious at all, though he's got a bit of conspiracy theorist about him, and in general, he's got all the couth of a horse's ass.

He was trying for a boy, and he is not monogamous - if he could be honest with himself and others, he would be decent polyamory material, but since he can't, he's doomed to cheat and hurt the women in his life. He drove all of us away - wives, daughters, girlfriends. I think he would have been happier and a better person had he had the structure of a fundie church behind him (even though Christian Fundamentalism as it is practiced in the US is abhorrent to me because it hurts so many while being good for so few) because then he would have had a secure place to stand, and would not have felt the need to score points on the women in his life by cheating or lying or just being brutal. He has serious trust issues, and had he had the surety that his wife would do as he said, he might have learned to trust. He didn't, so it never happened. But he probably would have been just as much of a tyrant... *sigh*

When I see large families, I hate to say it, but I feel contempt and anger. I don't like it, but this is my flaw. I resent that large families take up so many resources when there are so many people who don't even have enough to get through the day. I resent the fact that it's large families that ultimately cause urban sprawl and the suburbanization of everything. And I resent that those people will have more of a say in the future government of the country and the world than those of us who are responsible and only replace ourselves - if that. I even feel that way about women with three or four little kids, much less six or more. I just don't trust people who don't even think about what their child will do to the world to do right by the world for me and mine. And yes, I think having a brood is selfish. I wish I'd had more control over my father, but well, what was I going to do? Bobbitt him?

[Maddy McCall]

47. Wow. Thanks for your story.

Your dad sounds like, well, um, a character.

And yes, yes, yes, to everything you said about the political effects and the environmental implications.

[politicat]

57. Vietnam wasn't good for him.

He went into the Navy at 17, and went directly to Vietnam. He was a crewman on the medical helicopters that flew the wounded from the field back to the hospital ships and ground based hospitals. His mother, my grandmother, said that when he came back from Vietnam, he was a different person than the one who left the states. (He spent four tours of duty there.)

He never got help, and he stayed in the Navy until he had his twenty, and a lot of college paper (he has an engineering degree, an MBA and an advanced electrical engineering degree). The Navy didn't really care back then about domestic violence (the 80s) and he was an officer in the Goold Old Boys' Club.

Every once in a while, I saw a glimpse of the person he should have been had the Department of Defense not strangled it, and it hurt every time. He could have been a much better person if he hadn't been so wounded.

Still doesn't excuse him from putting his dick where it didn't belong, but maybe he did it because it made him feel human.

[Maddy McCall]

61. Four tours to Vietnam in those circumstances...

would mess anyone up.

What a sad story, politicat. It must be bittersweet to think of him, to know the harm he caused, yet to see him as a victim of the circumstances he couldn't control.

:hug:

[Catch22Dem]

43. I think they've failed us all...

In doing their part of our collective responsibility to the planet and it pisses me off. I value my daughter's future and the futures of other peoples children to feel anything other than hatred for these baby factories.

And that's how I feel.

[Maddy McCall]

48. ...

:thumbsup:

[Arugula Latte]

49. It kinda freaks me out.

I assume they're very religious, and I don't do well with very religious people. Frankly, they scare me.

My husband came from a family of seven kids. Of the six surviving kids, two had one child each and two had two children each. Two haven't had any kids. So, six kids produced six grandchildren. That's unusual. None is religious anymore. After years of church involvement, teaching Sunday school, and the like, they all realized it was all a bunch of crap, which I respect them for.

[Maddy McCall]

50. I wonder what will happen with the girls in the families I described.

I wonder if they will break free or if they will follow in their mothers' footsteps. :shrug:

I'd LOVE to read a book written by a child of parents like that, who was able to leave that lifestyle.

[merh]

64. I didn't follow in my mother's footsteps if you are referring to

children. None of my sisters have large families. My youngest sister has the most children and that is 4.

When I was 13 my mother sat me down and told me that if I was going to have sex before I was married to let her know so that we could go to the doctor and I could get on the pill.

My mother told us to wait until we were 25 to get married, that we needed to enjoy life and know all sorts of things before we settled down. She encouraged us to go to college and she and my father were able to help some of my older siblings in their attempts to get their college degrees.

I left that life style, only because my mother and father taught me to be a responsible member of society. You don't bring a child into the world unless you are ready for the child both emotionally and financially.

I have no children, though I wish I had at least one. Maybe one day I will adopt special needs kids, one day when I can support them and give them a place to live. And yes, I would love to have at least 10 of them.

[Maddy McCall]

65. Your mom must have been a beautiful person to know.

She certainly isn't anything like my stereotypical image.

:hi:

[merh]

69. She was the most remarkable woman I ever met.

I miss her every day and she is with me always. :hug:

:hi: :loveya:

[merh]

51. I don't like your view of the mothers of many.

My mother had nine children, if two sets of twins had survived (they were premature births) and had she not miscarried, she would have had 14 children. We actually figured it out, she was pregnant 9 years of her 56 years on earth.

When folks saw her with all of us, they would say "Oh, you must be a good Catholic", to which she would simply reply with a wry smile on her face "No, I just like sex."

Yes, she was a good Catholic and they tried to follow the tenets of the church and use the rhythm method, but after my youngest brother was born, she went on the pill. She was 40 years of age. Mom always said she was not rich in gold, but rich in love and she would not have traded her life as our mother for anything.

Before she married my father, she has aspirations of being a model, she was a gorgeous woman and had many, many suitors. Her father died when she was in her late teens and she had to go to work to bring in an income to support her family. Her mother, my grandmother, was one of those women that did not know how to take care of herself when her husband died, she was dependent on her husband. My mother worked to help raise her own family, she was the 2nd oldest and there were 3 of her siblings still in junior high and high school that needed her help. My uncle tells us stories how it was my mother that made it possible for him to attend the prom and to complete high school. She worked for the telephone company, beginning as an operator and making her way up the ladder to be one of the first manager/ supervisors for the company.

When my mother married my father, she became the consumate airman's wife. They traveled all over the country, being stationed at different bases every 3 years or so. She played bridge and kept us groomed and socialized with the other officer wives because that was what was necessary for her husband to get promotions.

After taking office, President John F. Kennedy's administration started to down size the military and they stopped giving promised promotions. My father was overlooked for the captain's promotion that he was in line for and was being forced out of the Air Force. Instead of taking it as the good, quiet dependent wife should, she wrote a letter to John F. Kennedy, complaining about my father being passed over for his promotion. That did not lead to his promotion, but it did garner a letter from the President's office (a letter I had before Katrina smacked me) and it lead to provisions being made that allowed my father to resign from the Air Force and reinlist as a PFC so that he could be promoted to Captain. (It was some strange concession, but it did allow him to get the rank he was entitled to and so necessary to support his wife and 9 kids.)

After the birth of her last child, my mother went to work at Gayfers when it originally opened on the Coast. She was such an industrious worker that she eventually made manager of the Book Department, one of the few female managers in the organization during the 60's and 70's. She continued working at Gayfers until the day she was diagnosed with a brain tumor, having put in 17 years with the company.

My mother was never dependent on my father. She adored my father and her family. If anything, he was dependent on her, he was never the same after her death. He couldn't bring himself to take her name off the joint bank accounts, credit cards and insurance policies. He never touched her closet and the room they shared remained the same after her death until the day he died.

My mother was the most independent woman I have ever met in my life. I am who I am because of her. She fostered individualism and independence in her children. She taught us the gift of silly dances and bad jokes. She went without so that we could be clothed and educated and loved. And she taught us to stand up for what was right and to make ourselves heard if need be.

When I see a family that size, I think what saints the parents must be, what love they all must know. I am able to survive all that I have in my life because I was blessed to be the daughter, one of nine, of a woman that loved sex and her husband and life.

When I see a family that size, I remember my mother walking through the mall with six of us following along behind her in a row, tall to short, quacking like little ducks. She would grin from ear to end, she pretended to not notice, but she loved it so.

:grouphug:

(a poem I wrote for her after she died in 1981)

Mother
There were nine of us you see
not five or four or three

Nine of us to love,
Mom called us her gifts from above

Nine pairs of hands reaching
Nine minds open to the teaching

Give me this and give me that
Mom, she has my hat

There to soothe the hurt and the bleeding
There to give, without ever needing

Woman of strength, you have gone
How do I carry on?

Because of you, I carry on...

[Maddy McCall]

58. merh, I appreciate your post and your perspective.

That's why I posted this thread. I do have prejudices that need to be challenged, and no doubt your story challenges my stereotypes.

I honestly don't know of any families the size of yours outside of the ones I see of the Pentacostal or Holiness faith.

Do any of your brothers and sisters have huge families? I am asking, because my OP was in reference to people with kids today.

But thank you for posting, because your post definitely forced me to see this from a different perspective.

[merh]

67. The family breakdown.

Sister T, 3 children (one died at age 3 in an auto accident)
Sister R, 3 children
Brother H, 2 kids
Sister S, 1 kid
Brother T, no kids
Sister G, 1 kid
Sister B, 4 kids
Brother G, 2 kids

1/2 Brother D, 2 kids

I have a lot of nephews and neices and several great nephew and neices (I think 5).

Now do you see, that if my mother, a woman who knew the suitors of the 40s, that dealt with society in the 50's and 60's when Beaver's mom was doing a number on society, could be the progressive femanist she was despite the era she was living in, then there is hope for the women growing up in the families you so worry about.

Sterotypes are not a good thing.

The most special facet of growing up in a large family is knowing that you don't always get your way, that you are not always right, that you must share and sacrifice in life and that tough times won't stop you, they may slow you down, but they can't stop you. There is no instant gratification in a large family, you have to earn what you get. Eating at a resturant is not only a circus event, it is a special treat. Rare and to be cherished.

The life lessons learned in a large family can take you far, if you remember them and not resent them.

[Broken_Hero]

85. No doubt about the eating out at a restaurant...:)

I can't even remember the last time all of us sat down at a restaurant for dinner...:) But, the one time i do remember, is at mcdonalds...with one of those play areas, it wasn't that bad, ...wait, the only thing that was bad, was the bill!...:) My family, does love to eat...:)

[Nikia]

52. It depends on the family

My grandmother and grandfather had six children and did pretty well with them. They now range from age 38-50. My grandmother did work during the marriage in the clerical field despite the children. My grandfather was a police officer and often worked at night. My great grandparents and great aunt also helped watch the children where their work schedules overlapped. My grandmother's father died when she was 5 and her mother did not remarry until she was an adult. Because of that, my grandmother was big into making sure that both of them were self sufficient if something would happen to either of them. Economically, they lived frugally in some ways, but took camping vacations across the country each year and had the basic toys and games of their generation. Interestingly, both she and my grandfather only had one other sibling. My grandmother's brother also had a large family, nine children.
One of my close friends was the third child of nine. Her parensts were strict Catholics who did not believe in birth control. Although their family had middle class income, they were poor because there were so many children. My friend always hated this. Her mother was a traditional women in many ways and earned money doing sewing, like making prom and wedding dresses and alterations, at home.
Another Catholic family had 13 children when I left the area. They were also a Catholic family that didn't believe in birth control. I knew several of the children since the oldest was 4 years older and the rest followed in close succesion. They were actually decently well off as they owned a successful construction company. The mother enjoyed her children and did help with the business. Some of the children seemed to be happier about the large family than others.
I also knew two families of seven with multiple fathers. Both those families lived in trailer parks and were very poor. The women weren't subservient, just more interested in men, who tended to be detrimental to them, than their children. Both of the children who I knew from these families, who happened to be the oldest, rather be anywhere else than home.
The Fundamentalist families of my area tended not to have especially large families, no more than 4 or 5 and usually 2 or 3. It was the Catholics who traditionally had large families in the areas because the priests emphasized that. I don't think that the Protestant Fundamentalists of the area wanted to be cofused with Catholics, which was assumed if you had a large family.
I try not to assume anything when I see large families because there could be a variety of circumstances. If they are people you do not know, you cannot even be certain that all of them are from the same couple. Some families regularly take friends and cousins with them so their family might appear larger than it actually is.

[Maddy McCall]

59. Yes, I considered that...

what you said in your last paragraph. That could be true.

[no name no slogan]

54. How do you AFFORD to eat in a restaurant w/ 8+ kids?

My ex-wife was one of eight, and she could count on one hand the number of times they went to restaurants when she was a kid. At $15-$20 a head, that can get very expensive, very quickly.

My ex-father-in-law had a great response for the question "why do you have so many kids?", though. A woman asked him that at a wedding, and he replied "because I have a horny wife".
:yoiks:

[Deja Q]

56. "dine'n'ditch" - a tv show from 1981 called 'Silver Spoons' taught us how.

:rofl:

[Nikia]

60. Cheap kid friendly buffets, chicken, pizza

Those were the only restaurants that my dad went to growing up on the rare instance that the meals weren't cooked at home.

[Maddy McCall]

62. Buffets and restaurants where "kids eat free"

As long as they are five or under, they eat free, and then the kids 12 and under eat for like $1.99.

They can dine out for $25 or less. Probably couldn't cook at home for that.

[nutsnberries]

66. I don't think the thoughts you wrote about mainly because I know a family

that doesn't fit your description.

The parents are both very well educated. They are Catholic but I don't think that has anything to do with the fact that they have 10 children. Birth control is not taboo to them, and it was a mutual decision to have so many children. The children range from 11-34. They are liberals. They participate in local politics and have been involved with many campaigns over the years. The mom stayed home until the youngest was in school and now she works. She has many friends.

The children have done/do without some luxuries but they never go/went without clothing, food, attention, love or education. Three aren't college age yet. The seven older children all go/went to excellent colleges, 3 have Masters degrees, one with her PhD. Academic scholarships and college loans for all.

The reason for 10 kids? Well, both parents love children and family. They extend themselves to others in need as well- in their community, in their parish. I think that to some extent there was/is a need to show off, to show those around them that it could be done (not just the *making babies* part)--- and there was enough ego involved to believe that these children would be solutions to problems in the world, not a strain on the world.

The oldest grandchild is a few months older than the youngest child.
I wouldn't choose this for myself, but they are a beautiful family. They keep me from thinking anything sterotypical about large families. :)

[texas1928]

68. I bet in a big family you could get a good...

game of...









































TAG!!!!!! YOU ARE IT!!!!!!



:P

[nutsnberries]

70. yeah but,

you could also hide from all that in the huge piles of laundry and dirty dishes!


:hide:

[Maddy McCall]

76. LOL.

No doubt! :hi:

[rug]

71. I have five children.

Another daughter died as an infant.

I have very little time to spend passing judgment, checking clothes or dispensing pity.

[Maddy McCall]

74. I made observations about two families I saw tonight and last night.

I'm human. You are, too.

Most people have "first impressions" when they see people. I do.

[AngryAmish]

72. According to this thread my great-grandmothers were filth

since 2 of them had 20 kids.


Then again, they didn't have cable.

People have enough kids to make them happy. Who are we the judge?

[Maddy McCall]

73. NO. Many of us have grandmothers and great grandmothers....

who had many many children.

I'm talking about today. I'm talking about your contemporaries. Not about your grandparents, nor about my grandparents.

Rural agrarianism isn't a sustaining way of life anymore, as it was in the times of our grandparents and great grandparents.

[AngryAmish]

83. But it remains

according to the comments on this thread, that they we ignorent fundy fools. It is beyond insulting to those amazing women.

[AngryAmish]

87. Or should I talk about my friend Eddie

from a Mexican family who have 22 college degrees between 10 kids (including the daughter with Down's Syndrome). Their mother, of course, was impossibly deluded and foolish. If you only had the opportunity to meet that woman...

[Kali]

75. I live near the border plus in a Mormon area

I figure if they are Mexicans "Catholic", if anglo "Mormon" altho I have seen a large family with the women wearing dresses and bonnets - are they Amish or Mennonites? In Chihuaha they would be Mennonites, but the men have a "costume" too.


I could never live that way - hell, two or three kids seems like too many a lot of the time!!! On the other hand - like in the old days, I suppose the older kids help out a fair amount with their sib and other houshold chores???

[Maddy McCall]

77. Yes. I just wonder if the older ones have much of a childhood.

:shrug:

[merh]

79. Okay, personal perspective again.

My older siblings are the most irresponsible of the lot. They had more of a childhood than I did, if childhood equates to the new toys and the great clothing and portraits being taken and all the newness of being.

I had a great childhood but I was also taught to be responsible, I went to work at 14 to earn money for my BB hip hugger, bell bottom jeans. :D If we wanted extra, we had to earn the money to get it. By the time I came along, there wasn't the spoiling the older kids enjoyed. Yes, the older kids did a lot of babysitting of the rest of us, but that didn't take away from their social lifes.

To this day, I am the responsible one that my older siblings come to for advice, to help get them out of a bind, to listen to their problems. That has nothing to do with my place in the family order, it is strictly due to personality.

There is a great deal of love in large families, As a Rabbi opined one night on a late night program I was watching, the reason God gives us family members were can't get along with or even like is because he wanted to prepare us for life in the real world. You might not like everyone you meet, but you are supposed to love them, just like you love the members of your family you don't necessarily like.

[grace0418]

92. wow, merh, your personal experience could not have

been more different than mine. My older siblings definitely suffered. As did I as the youngest. There were 7 other large families in my parents' circle of friends, and all had similar experiences to mine. Consider yourself very lucky.

[merh]

96. How did your older siblings suffer?

And there were several large families within our parish and if you ask the children of those families I think the majority will tell you they did not "suffer" and wouldn't trade their lives for anything.

Explain to me this "suffer" you refer to.

[Gormy Cuss]

113. The majority will tell you that it's not something they would wish

for their own kids. True, growing up with a lot of siblings does have some advantages as you outline in your earlier posts. I also was raised in a large family surrounded by large families and among my peers who I have asked about it, they will also talk first about the good times but then talk about the downside. Never having a place to be alone. Always sharing everything. Knowing that most after school activities just weren't in the picture. Want to learn to dance or play an instrument? Sorry, no money and no time to shuttle you around. Want to be a scout? Well, we'll try to pay your dues but don't even think about going away on trips. There is no extra money. The biggest issue was vying for a few minutes of attention from their fathers, and in some cases even their mothers. Parental interaction often was like the one-minute-manager.

Hey, we survived and yes, I wouldn't trade my life for anything because it's the only one I know. In fact, among the families in my neighborhood we were considered one of the models. We were well-mannered and respectful. We were clean and well groomed. Our house was orderly. It's not a terrible way to be raised but in this day and age it's not necessary either. In later years many of the mothers confessed to their daughters that while they loved every one of their kids, smaller families have it easier. It was hard for the mostly Catholic mothers to convey this, but they were also speaking from a place of reality.

[merh]

120. Again, I can only speak for myself (as I would think is your case

unless you have some study you have been doing and research figures you can provide us with).

My mother was a feminist, was able to be here own person and was a loving, giving mother. Was she perfect? Hell no, but her humanity has made it so much easier for me to understand the humanity in others.

Would my mother have had fewer children? Maybe, but if you asked her which one of us she would have foresaken, she would not be able to give you a name. And until the day both my parents died, they mourned the loss of my 2 brothers and 2 sisters, the premature twins that didn't get the chances I was given.

The irony was, my mother hated the sound of babies crying, it was like finger nails on a chalk board to her. Did she beat us into silence, did she ignore us when we cried? No, she loved us, she was of the school of thought that you can never hold children too often or love them too much. When her hands were full, she taught us, her children, to give the love, to provide the attention, to nourish and care for each other.

So you can take your experiences and do as you will with them, I will cherish mine.

[Gormy Cuss]

128. merh, I was speaking about my own experiences just as you speak of yours.

I'm sorry you thought I was trying to say yours weren't valid. I was offering another perspective as a child from a large family and I was most certainly not trying to criticize your mother. My mother was great too and I cherish my memories. I just don't see perpetuating large families as a positive thing any more and neither did my mother in her later years. This from a woman who would tell you motherhood was the only job she ever wanted and her life's greatest accomplishment.

[grace0418]

117. Gormy Cuss said it pretty well.

And I could add several things about my personal experiences and the experiences of the other families I grew up with, but I'm feeling a little put off by the fact that you felt it necessary to put the word "suffer" in quotes so many times. Do you think I am lying or exaggerating?

[merh]

118. No, I don't understand the suffering.

Do you think that kids from small families don't "suffer", do you think that "only children" have perfect lives and don't know the struggles of becoming a person, of feeling love, of knowing that they are worthy of love?

I know plenty of fucked up individuals that were only children or from the "normal" sized family that are just as fucked up, if not more so than anyone from a large family.

They were given all of the benefits that their parents could afford, dance, piano, social activities, they were bought the best of everything and their parents loved them and gave to them as if they were the only people on the planet, yet they are incapable of living happily in the real world because that type of behavior didn't follow them outside of the family.

We all have had our suffering, our burdens, our angst that could well be associated with the love of our parents or the size of our families. Large families don't have the market cornered on dysfunction and inequities.

Nobody ever said life was to be fair.

I can see the greatest benefit I was able to cultivate from growing up in my large family is that I know I am responsible for my own happiness and that I can't blame my problems on others, not my parents, not my siblings and not my friends/lovers.

[grace0418]

130. Well, in my full post down the thread (#84), I said

that fucked up families come in all shapes and sizes. But I personally feel that, by dividing the attention of one set of parents between so many children, you are already starting at a disadvantage no matter how well-meaning the parents are. You were lucky, you apparently got enough love and attention. Good for you. Others aren't as lucky. I've seen it with my own eyes as well as lived it. That doesn't invalidate your experience just as yours doesn't invalidate mine.

And no, life isn't fair, no one ever said it was. But that doesn't mean people should just risk the welfare of their children, themselves or the planet as a whole. Just because a disadvantage can sometimes be overcome doesn't make it wise or responsible to start there. I'm sorry, but I feel that it's irresponsible to have a huge brood of children. I also feel like it's irresponsible to have children when you're still a kid yourself, when you're in an abusive relationship, when you don't have the means to clothe or feed them, when you're trying to keep a marriage together, when you just need companionship or any number of reasons. Just because people do it anyway and just because sometimes the kids turn out alright doesn't change my opinion.

Lastly, you said yourself that you are were raised in a loving, happy family where you got all the love and attention you needed. So don't you think it's perhaps a little easy for you to say that people shouldn't be blaming their problems on their parents? What about abuse survivors? Is the abuse their own fault?

[Kali]

80. just as a devil's advocate - what is a "childhood"?

I DO know what you mean, but looking from a different angle, a lot of kids in our culture don't really have that either. Between sitting around playing videogames until they are 20 or 30 and the push to be teen porn stars by the fashion industry, a lot of kids from "small" families don't get to be kids either.

Those older kids from huge families may have responsibilities beyond what we would give our own kids, but on the other hand maybe that isn't so bad in terms of what kind of adults they eventually become. I imagine, like everything there are horrible abusive situations as well as nurturing, healthy ones.

One thing related to this that I DO like to see is when the local (religious) homeschoolers have their "social" day at the park, the kids all play together - all ages. In rural areas you see this too. In urban areas where everybody is segregated by age as soon as they start public school, you rarely see it. I really enjoy seeing the diversity of ages just PLAYING - they just make up games and all are included at whatever skill level they have, it looks so healthy compared to the hyper-organized team sports with the screaming parents on the other field accross the parking lot.

[GirlinContempt]

115. Might be hutterites

[Beware the Beast Man]

82. It's ridiculous.

It's not like these people are sharecroppers and need all the hands they can get. It's fucking 2006 already. My wife and I plan on having two at most, but in the mean time I'm enjoying life as a DINC (Dual-income-no-children).

[grace0418]

84. As the eleventh of eleven children, my reaction is

sadness. No human, no matter how loving, how determined, or how wealthy, can give the kind of individual attention a child needs when they have that many children. I've argued with some people before about this but I stand by this statement. There simply aren't enough hours in the day to provide 8, 10, 12 or 16 kids with that attention. Someone always suffers. The older kids are forced into service, being expected to not only take care of themselves but usually to care for younger siblings. The younger kids get essentially raised by children because Mom and Dad are too tired, busy, fried, overwhelmed, you name it. All the kids get lost in the shuffle, raised, rewarded and often disciplined as a unit rather than individuals. If one kid does something wrong, then everybody suffers. You learn early on to walk on eggshells, ready to scramble for cover, because with so many kids around something is always happening.

I've seen what it does to kids. I've lived it. It's not fair. It's just not. I've spent my whole life alternating between feeling invisible and feeling like a complete nuisance. My parents were too worn out to teach me anything when I was growing up, but neither did they allow me the freedom to learn anything on my own. So I knew less than nothing when I went to college, and had no one around for support. My parents were done. They sold our house and took off before I finished my first week of classes. I remember hearing my friends talk about going home for Thanksgiving, getting home cooked meals, and sleeping in their own room. They would complain about having a curfew and having to hide their tattoos or cigarettes, but I could tell they were looking forward to being spoiled and loved. I was so jealous of that.

I've also seen what it does to the mothers. My mother is a wreck, physically and emotionally. Since my dad died she is practically incapable of functioning. All she knows is the day to day life of a mother. She has very few interests, even fewer life skills, and is like having a toddler or alien around. Except that a toddler or alien would be a lot more curious and interested in learning new things than my mom is. She's not a stupid person but it's like she just gave up on being responsible for anything once her children were adults.

And she's not the only one like this. My parents' circle of friends in my home town all had 8 or more children (not fundies, Catholics). Seriously. My brothers married into a family of 14 kids. This is a world with which I am very familiar.

Sure, parents with one or two kids can screw up pretty badly too. I realize lots of kids had bad childhoods. But having a litter instead of family virtually guarantees problems. Maybe not 100% of the time, but certainly a majority of the time. To be fair, I've heard stories about perfectly happy large families. But in my experience with my family and the eight other large families I personally know, there was a price paid by the children and the parents.

And that's not even taking into consideration that this planet really doesn't NEED any more humans than it's already supporting, so popping out a dozen kids in one family is, frankly, quite selfish.

[WildEyedLiberal]

93. "Holiness attire"

:rofl:

I have some Holey jeans... I don't suppose those count, though. :evilfrown:

[Maddy McCall]

94. Not unless you swim in them, too.

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

98. In my daughter's school there's a family with 12 kids, mom's a college

prof...I don't think she's very subservient, in fact she's a pretty outspoken DEM even. They've got normal looking, normal acting kids from age 2 to 26. They're great kids, very polite, and not odd in any way. Their parents just love kids, and wanted a HUGE family. I actually kind of envy them. They have one of those huge vans with the bench seats and it is still plastered with Kerry stickers. And, as an aside...I think she has sex just for the fun of it. ;) If she read this thread and some of the ideas on her situation I think she would laugh her butt off...to cover the hurt. :(

[merh]

101. I would love to met the professor mom.

My mother would have called Maddy out on this. She would no more put up with the stereotypes in this thread than she put up with the stereotypes regarding women in the work force.

Good morning MrsG. :hi:

:hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. She is awesome and certainly isn't defined by dependence on her

husband. :) Her kids are probably the most well balanced in that school. Even though I've only got the two...I learned a valuable trick from her. If her older ones babysit, they get paid the going rate. I do this with my daughter. If she wants to babysit, I pay her...if she doesn't, she doesn't babysit.

It is unfortunate that we see these types of stereotypes on DU. I have never once looked at a large family and thought "fundy" or "poor woman". Most times I guess they have 12 kids because they wanted 12 kids. And there is nothing wrong with that. :hi:

Good to see you! :loveya:

[merh]

112. See, my parent's did that too, about babysitting.

Allowances were earned in our family and if the older sibs had to babysit us, they were paid for that service. It wasn't just an expectation because of their age.

To be honest, my parents took on the added expense of a nanny of sorts when the last 6 of us were little, just so the older 3 could have their social lives outside of the herd.

Miss May, a house keeper for the family across the street, took care of us after school until my father got off of work, then we would all make it over to the house and take turns cooking dinner and setting the table. I think I was 12 when I cooked my first meal for the family and to this day, I have trouble making small portion meals. :D

It wasn't a task that made us feel like slaves or deprived us of our childhood, it was a family chore that made us feel like we were contributing to the family and for many of us, it was really pretty fun. Of course, we fought and argued and gripped, but hell, that is just a part of human nature.

Again, I wouldn't trade my childhood for nothing. I learned so much and felt so loved, even when I was bad. My parents are saints, I miss them both dearly. I am who I am because of their love and support.

[CBGLuthier]

100. what do I think silently?

About other families?

Absolutely nothing.

I have enough trouble running my own life without going around passing judgement on people I don't even know.

[khashka]

102. My impression.....

based on talking to men and women on DU is it's a bad thing. Just talk to people here who come from such big families. There is a lot of anger, resentment, hurt. Children need love and comfort - hard to provide that when you have so many.


I know from my own experience that raising one daughter took everything I had - mind, body and soul. Can't imagine trying to raise a dozen. Do you have anything left to give them?!


I'm a little biased though, my parents taught me that I can create a human life to replace me. But that's it! One man, one child.

Khash.

[merh]

111. Don't know who you have been talking to.

As for this poster that was brought up in a large family, I can tell you from what I have read of others who post on this board, I was given more comfort, love and reassurance than most of the posters from the average family. Anger, resentment and hurt? Not this child of a large family.

There are plenty of advantages to being one of many. You have a support system that out lives your parents, you are never alone, even when you are alone. I consider it a blessing to be from a big family and I feel sorry for those who weren't, for those that didn't know the love that I knew growing up, for those that don't have the love that I have now.

Love fosters love, the more you love, the more you feel loved, the more you give, the more you get back in return. In our large family there was a continual fountain that replenished itself. For love is sufficient unto love.

[khashka]

123. I'm very happy for you

Very happy. The more you love the more you can love. That is so true.

Unfortunately, when we did the "big family" thang awhile ago, many people said they spent their childhood feeling neglected and lost.

Maybe the difference is that your parents loved you and instilled that same love in you?


But some people just have kids without thinking about them as human beings. "I want twelve kids!" No Idea how much love and care a kid needs.


I'm happy that you had such a good experience. And there is nothing that can replace the love of a brother or sister. But let's face it, merh, having a bunch of kids is really tough if you try to do the best by them. I hope you appreciate your parents and siblings..... No, I know you do.

Khash.

[Midlodemocrat]

103. My reaction? Envy.

I always envisioned myself with a lot of kids, but I started kinda late and the practicalities of it kind of reeled me in.

I still hope to adopt sometime down the road, thus fulfilling a dream of a housefull.

[China_cat]

105. One of the smartest, funniest, in your face women

I have ever known (and who was known for not taking shit from ANYONE) was the mother of 8. Maybe rare but definitely a contradiction from the stereotype.

[Bridget Burke]

110. I love to speculate about everyone I see. But I don't usually judge.

Whether they're very large families or yuppie couples carrying on separate cell-phone conversations while sitting at the same table. (Matching BUSH/2004 t-shirts might drive me over the edge.)

Children from large families have spoken of their experiences on this thread. Some had problems, some didn't. Of course, children from small families can have problems, too. I only had two sibs, but my Mom was widowed when we were all preschoolers--so I didn't come from a perfect home, either.

Women can be abused, dependant and/or sexually unsatisfied with no children or just a few. Some of these women might even be at your elevated socioeconomic level. Is there some way you could actually learn more about the people in your community? Why CAN'T you talk to them? (Since you obviously live in a Spanish-free area--of course, you would feel yourself above those ladies, as well.)

Personally, I do feel that it would be harder to care for a very large family. But I don't waste time with elaborate fantasies about "the lower classes."

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

114. Granted, I fully agree it's a selfish and horrible practice, however...

I was always under the impression that the feminism movement was to provide women with the choice to have a career and be financially independent, not to mandate it. Have you given thought to the idea that the woman made a conscious choice to live that way? To raise a large family, even if it means she won't have a career?

All I'm saying is that you're being WAY too judgemental on the women (AND the men) involved in those situations when it comes to those issues. Just because it wouldn't be your choice, or even that you can't imagine living that way, that doesn't give you the right to automatically pass judgement on them. For all you know, they could be happier than you are. Just my $.02.

Like I said, however, I think it's horribly selfish and greedy. Like you said, those kids are going to be living in Depression like conditions AND there are so many kids out there that need a home that it's irresponsible to make babies just for the hell of it.

[slide to the left]

116. I used to live next door

to a family that had, I think maybe 10 kids. I lost count after we moved. But we lived in a well to do area and the mom didn't work. All the kids turned out fine. The oldest was a girl and the mom didn't want to stop until she had another girl, hence 10 kids.

[Taverner]

124. I agree with you Maddy

I also think "how $%@! irresponsible!" since the damage that one American kid does on resources, the environment, etc has been well documented.

Of course I'm a hypocrite as I have two kids....

[TheBaldyMan]

125. I come from a big family and I wouldn't describe my Mum as

a loser or uneducated. Back in the mid-20th century and earlier people didn't have the reproductive choices that they have nowadays.

Big families are actually quite healthy for kids to grow up in. You learn not to expect to be the constant centre of attention, there are quite a lot of chores to do, an allowance is unheard of so you learn to be independant a lot earlier.

I don't get freaked by seeing big families, if anything they have my sympathy because it reminds me of my own upbringing.

on edit: I just saw the obnoxious, greedy and selfish wisecrack. Let me add this - anyone with that many kids is doomed to poverty so greedy doesn't come into it and I'll ignore the other comments with the contempt they deserve.

[TheMightyFavog]

126. Do those women recieve pleasure?

I wonder if they even receive sexual pleasure (yes, orgasms) from their husbands, or if their husbands are in it only to get the sperm out, into the uterus, so that another baby can be made.

Maddy, It is of my opinion that this is what a fundie sex session sounds like.

Grunt, grunt, grunt, UHHHHHHHNNNNNNN, roll over, fart, snore.

Total elpased time: 20 sec

[Taverner]

127. I had a friend in school who's family *was* assembly of God

He was in a family of 9 kids, but at some point the family became disenchanted with the AOG and left - and became kind of hippieish in the process. But that did not negate the fact that they were a family of 11.

It was interesting - each kid ended up doing well in business, one of his sisters became an executive at Fredricks of Hollywood of all places, and he did well and pulled out at the right time in the dot.com boom.

[hopein08]

129. Each of my parents had 8 brothers and sisters...

My mom's parents were Catholics, traditional but not Rick Santorum "Catholic, and my dad's parents were Lutheran. Granted of course, my dad is the youngest of the nine and he was born in 1948 (I think his oldest brother was born around 1930) and the years for my mom's family are about 1952 to 1967 so society was different.

Both of my paternal grandparents died before I was born, but I do know that they raised all of their children in a three or four room house and the kids are now an eclectic mix of personalities and lives but since none of them, to my knowledge, turned out to be murderers/crazy/evangelical I think things went alright. As far as I know, my grandmother never really worked.

Both of my maternal grandparents are still alive. As I said, they are Catholic so they never used birth control. I know that after baby #6 or so the doctors told my grandmother not to have any more children for health reasons but she had three more. My grandmother still controls the bank account and the bills. Incidentally, they had three sons and two of them turned out to be gay, which has caused my grandmother some worry but she is very accepting. Again, in this family, there were no oddballs. And only one of their children regularly attends church.

So, I guess I don't think it is that weird at all. Except that the average number of children per family is what now...1.4? So if I think about that fact, I am caught off guard.