domestic violence

[shanti]

Poll question: domestic violence

i am in an online argument with some men on another board who feel that it is ok to hit a woman if she hits you (the man) first. we're talking relationships here.

personally, i feel that a man is usually stronger than a woman and if a woman were to hit him, it would be possible to restrain her or LEAVE so as not to hit her and possible injure her MUCH more than she could him. i don't believe in hitting whatsoever.

what do you think?

[johnnie]

1. That's not so cut and dry

First:
:popcorn:



Secondly, I think that if I felt threatened enough I would say it is perfectly within my rights to protect myself. I have never hit a woman, but then again I have only hit a few men because they tried to hit me first.

This could be an interesting thread.

[Ravenseye]

32. I agree

I put down depends on the situation. I can't just blankly say I wouldn't hit a woman, because I don't know the circumstances. If she's kidnapping my child, you're damn straight I'll hit her, for instance.

Now just in an argument with a woman, whom you're in a relationship with or not, I'd say no, never.

Then again, who knows. If we're talking about Domestic Violence, at what point is it ok to fight back with punching? What if she's taken a few swings at you with a hammer and put you on the ground, about to Coup de Grace you. Can you take a swing at her then?

On the whole I think it's wrong for anyone to take a swing either way, and if the man's life isn't in danger, or his children's lives aren't in danger, then I'd say he shouldn't.

[imperialismispasse]

2. You should change the poll

Break it down by gender-"I am a man and it is not okay", "I am a man and it is okay", "I am a woman" etc.

[imperialismispasse]

4. Oh and PS I would never hit a woman

It's how I was raised, we are bigger and stronger and we don't hit women ever. If a woman was really determined to beat the crap out of me I would restrain her or leave. Not to mention that I don't think violence solves anything and trying to stop violence with violence seems pretty useless. Luckily I don't have violent people around so this isn't really an issue for me.

[shanti]

7. thank you, thank you!

that is the response that i wanted to hear! i don't know why the men on the other board are so resistant to seeing this. they lost me when they began discussing "handling" a woman! sheesh!

[imperialismispasse]

11. "Handling a woman"

I would love to see my gf's face if I told her I was going to "handle" her. lol. This is like a different mindset that I've never been a part of. I dated a couple girls in high school who liked yelling and having fights and I ended it pretty quick. I prefer to be with someone I can be happy with and they're happy with me. Doesn't seem worth it to be in a relationship otherwise. :shrug:

[shanti]

19. your mama

deserves a :hug: for raising you right! and yes, some girls like getting roughed up, sad to say. i think it boils down to how you are raised.

[imperialismispasse]

28. Actually it was both my parents but especially my dad

I'm a full grown adult now but I remember like it was yesterday my dad saying "We don't hit women ever." He was very serious in that conversation and he was normally joking around so I took it seriously too. I was pretty young and it just stuck. Now he is still so in love with my mom that I can't even picture him ever raising a hand to her. I also remember once being in high school and yelling at my mom about something stupid and my dad growled at me "Do not speak to my wife that way." And I realized I had crossed some line where my dad would react the same way to anybody who talked to my mom like that even his own son. I remembered that too believe me! :D

You said "some girls like getting roughed up"-I don't know about "like" but I think it's more about what they feel they deserve which is really sad. Maybe because of their past or something. It's a shame we live in a culture that is so advanced in some ways but not in that.

[johnnie]

10. Let's say you are walking down the street

And say six women decided they were going to jump you and take your cash. They jump on you and start beating the living shit out of you...would you fight back?

[imperialismispasse]

15. The original question

said in the context of a relationship not a mugging. To answer your question though I think I would try to get away from them not fight back. If it came down to pure self defense I suppose I would defend myself. I'm pretty big though. :D

[johnnie]

18. Oh, ok

I didn't take the "in a relationship" into account. My bad. For the most part, I think it is best to walk away as you said. Along with many other men here, I was raised to never hit a woman. I came close a few times with my older sister though..lol. But I never hit her. She was a pain in the ass.

[imperialismispasse]

25. I have to say

You must live in an interesting area with gangs of women roaming the streets looking for victims. ;-) J/k.

[johnnie]

30. Lol

Well, it was a goofy situation I posted. I guess it could happen though. :shrug:

[shanti]

20. we're not talking about being "assaulted"

on the street. apples and oranges. this is about being in a relationship and the couple escalating an argument.

[johnnie]

22. I realized that

See above. :hi:

[shanti]

6. i did just that - thanks for the tip

;)

[Katherine Brengle]

3. I am a woman, and I think that it is okay in come cases--

it's very subjective, but if I were to hit my husband (I mean, really HIT him, not kick him in the butt or that kind of thing lol), I would not think that he was in the wrong if he hit me back.

As to the "men are stronger" thing, I think this is generally true, particularly in terms of upper body strength, so I would expect a proportional response, not a broken nose.

[Debi]

48. OMG - I didn't think anyone would agree with me

I'm not in the business of punching my husband, but if I did I wouldn't expect him to just smile and walk away.

I disagree with the 'women are weaker' meme, too many women are not weaker anymore and we fight to prove it daily in sports/business/politics. To punch a man and then claim 'oh, but I'm the weaker sex' is disingenuous. Just IMHO

[Radical Activist]

5. No, its not OK to hit back.

Getting away or restraining her is what should be done. I suppose I could understand an exception if the man truly felt that he had no other way to defend himself from a sustained attack. But, just because a woman hits you once doesn't justify the same bad behavior.

[noonwitch]

8. It's okay to hit back in self-defense

If a man is really threatened by a woman and his only recourse is to hit her back, then he has to do what he has to do. I can see this being the case where a woman is larger than he, or where the woman in question is intoxicated and/or mentally ill and acting on chemicals and/or adreneline.

[shanti]

9. why is it necessary to hit!?

why not just restrain her?

[nini]

13. I agree... there are some women out there that can overpower....

.. some men. A man should not have to be beaten just because his assailant is female.

[shanti]

21. but, nini

why would a man just stand there and be beaten? why would any man do that? couldn't he restrain her or just walk away?

[nini]

27. If she's stronger than him he wouldn't be able to overpower her

If she's all over him and hitting is part of how he can get her off of him or away, then so be it. She has a responsibility of her own to back the hell off. If she's out of control, stronger than him etc.. he has a right to do anything to defend himself. If you think women abusing men is not a possibility then there's no way to discuss this issue with you.


Do you think it's ok she's hitting him? She shouldn't be hitting anyone either.

NO ONE should hit another person, regardless of which sex either of them are -but if you have to defend yourself from harm, then do what you have to do. That's why self-defense is recognized in court.

[shanti]

36. of course i don't think it's ok for her to hit him either

i thought i made that clear in my posts.

[petronius]

29. "Restrain" or "walk away" are good first choices,

but they are sometimes a lot easier to type than to actually achieve.

Personally, if I really feel threatened by a woman I will first try to leave, and then attempt restraint, but if those fail then I'll hit back (or use whatever other sort of violence is required for my own safety). This is all hypothetical, however, since I've never been in a violent relationship...

[nini]

34. of course.. if he can walk away then he should.

If she could walk away if he hit her first - she should too.

Unfortunately, the hitter is usually out of control, hence the comment that one needs to do what they need to protect themselves.

We're do agree though. I just am trying to get the point across that in some situations the woman can and will do great harm to a man.

[Ariana Celeste]

33. I completely agree.

"A man should not have to be beaten just because his assailant is female."

My post a little downthread says why- me and my brother got to watch my brother's dad getting beat up by an angry out of control woman, because he was raised not to hit back and was afraid to try to restrain her. Nobody should ever be in that position.

[nini]

35. that's so sad... He didn't have to take that

:-(


There are some very strong and very mean women out there. No one should have to be harmed by them simply because they're women.

[Ariana Celeste]

12. I'm a woman, I think it depends.

For one thing... not all men are stronger than women... Lol. I think if any man is actually threatened by a woman's abusive actions, he is within his rights to protect himself.

Now, if a woman slaps a man, and that's it, I don't think something like a punch in the face would be justified. A slap is a slap, I would prefer the man either walk away or restrain the woman, but I wouldn't blame a man for a slap back. Or be entirely angry about it.

Why do I feel this way?

My brother's dad, was in an abusive relationship with a woman. He was raised never to hit a woman back. She beat the crap out of him, and he just let her, because he was raised that way. He didn't even want to restrain her because he was afraid. Afraid that a) cops would be called and HE would go to jail, which does happen frequently- and b) that my brother and I would take it the wrong way and think he was aggressive towards women.

Nobody has the right to hit someone, no matter the gender. Everybody has the right to protect themselves, no matter the gender. And if it takes a hit back, so be it.

By the way, I've dated a few guys who were much weaker than I am. I think that it's BS to believe that all men are stronger than women.



ON EDIT: I voted before you changed the poll, and my vote is now in the wrong place. I can't vote again.

[shanti]

23. but why

would a person even stay in a relationship where there was violence? that's not love!

[Ariana Celeste]

26. I don't know why.

I've never stayed in one. But there are plenty of confused people out there who do. I don't think hitting anyone for any reason is ever justified other than self defense. I have only ever hit one person, myself.

My brother's dad stayed with that woman for a few months, getting beat up, thinking his love could change her. Until he finally realized what it was doing to me and my brother. Fortunately he left. My mom has been in abusive relationships, thinking her love could change them. She only ever left them because of how it affected me and my brother.

Sometimes people are just.... confused, I guess. It's really sad. By the way, both my mom and my brother's dad grew up in abusive homes. Perhaps that has something to do with allowing others to be abusive to them in their adult lives. Thank goodness they were never abusive towards us kids or their spouses.

[Ohio Joe]

14. The way I was raised

It is never OK to hit a woman.

[Laelth]

16. It's never OK to hit anyone, regardless.

It doesn't matter what another person has done to you. Hitting someone is battery. If you're in a relationship where you're being hit in anger, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman, you need to get out of it. Hitting someone makes you liable for the tort of battery and criminally liable for the crime of assault and battery (or whatever it's called in your jurisdiction).

It's just not a good idea to hit anybody.

-Laelth

[Metta]

17. That becomes a slippery slope and a substitute for clear communication.

Clear language, specifically. Violence is always anger acted out and usually muddies or distracts from the issues. What you talk out, you don't act out. If you deal, you heal.

[LeftyMom]

24. He has the right to defend himself without escalating the situation

So does a woman when the man is the agressor or a man or woman being attacked by a partner of the same sex, or a person of either gender being attacked by someone with whom they're not in a relationship.

It doesn't matter who's bigger or stronger, people of any gender have the right to defend themselves from violence.

[rucky]

31. When I worked as a social worker, I took a class in nonviolent restraint

I think everybody should take one. It's really the best way to handle physical confrontations.

[skygazer]

37. This is something that's used as an "out" in domestic violence situations

"Well, she hit me."

The truth is, if a man hits a woman, she usually has little hope of escaping the situation. She cannot overpower him or walk away because, nine times out of ten, he is significantly stronger than she is. On the other hand, if a woman hits a man, he is usually able to either escape or restrain her. It is almost always an unequal situation.

In addition, women very rarely batter men. You'll find the odd example but the overwhelming number of batterings are men against women. Usually, when a woman hits a man, it's a single blow or maybe a couple. They almost never cause real damage or inhibit his ability to act or get away, whereas a man can often incapacitate a woman with one blow and the pattern is generally one of escalating violence, very often leading to severe injury or even death.

Within a relationship, the line that "she hit me" is almost always a lame excuse.

[SeattleGirl]

38. It's also not okay for a woman to hit a man

There are more men who are victims of domestic violence than most people realize, because many more men than women won't report it. It often comes down to the "You got hit by a GIRL?" mindset. People who are victims of domestic violence always feel shame; with men, there is the added stigma of "being hit by a girl".

[LeftyMom]

41. Yep.

My son's father got his nose broken by his ex-wife. He never reported the abuse and nothing would have been done if he had.

She's much larger (7" taller) than he is and a big strapping farm girl, so the size disparity is not always in the man's favor either.

[SeattleGirl]

43. That's absolutely true.

We have a law here that says if there is a domestic violence incident, the person who started it HAS TO be arrested. So often, the victim may call the cops, or a neighbor may call them, and when they get there, the victim refuses to press charges. Now, it doesn't matter if they do or not; the victimizer gets hauled away, be they male or female.

[genie_weenie]

39. It's not as simple or easy as your poll

Look at how the American Culture shift has begun, ever since I Spit on Your Grave (and earlier in France with the film Tarintino blatantly robbed to make KillBill a film called The Bride Wore Black) you have many films were women are not only physically equal but oft times superior to men in fighting ability.

Films were the female character beats up multiple men and not by trickery or deception but due to superior skill:

Kill Bill 1 and 2
Electra
Tomb Raider 1 and 2
Charley's Angels 1 and 2
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil 1 and 2
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon



Of course I don't think many of these films is actually good cinema, but that doesn't mean the idea that women can be as tough or violent as men isn't being forced into the consciousness of mainstream Americana.

Also,personally, from my experience it can be very difficult to simply restrain someone.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. its not ok to hit anyone...and there is generally a huge difference

between a man and a womans strength...a slap from me would barely hurt anyone...whereas one from my brother (skinnier than me) would do some real damage....

[Taverner]

42. Depends - is she trying to KILL you?

If so...and it seems like she has a good chance of doing so, then YES. Hit, kick, whatever you have to do to keep from dying.

[pitohui]

44. i voted it depends on the circumstances

but yeah if the woman is much smaller and weaker than the man, and just delivering a movie star spoiled bitch slap, the man should leave and just dump the woman out of his life

if the man is in a self defense situation where he has no other way to get to safety but to strike back, he has that right, as anyone should have

i do know a man who was a victim of domestic abuse and it can get into a situation where even if the man does not wish to hit back, if the woman is threatening with a knife, as this woman did, there may be times when there is no choice but to fight back in self defense

in his case it took a long time to make a final break w. the woman -- ten years!

what is this hold that abusers have over their victims?

if a woman hits a man, then she should expect to be dumped, just as she should dump a man who hits her

if the man is unable to make the break because of an addiction to the abuser, well, we need better support systems to help him make the break

and that's my 2 cents

[SOteric]

45. Regardless of gender, hitting isn't a correct action or response

in a relationship. (Barring some mutually agreed upon sexual acts between consenting adults.)

Hitting might possibly, under some circumstances, be a correct thing if one is being attacked or assualted in some manner by a stranger or a deranged person of some limited acquaintance. But it's never an 'okay' thing to do to someone you love and care for, with whom you're intimately involved and hope to continue being so.

I would like to challenge your stereotype of the man as being the stronger however on two levels. First, I have certainly seen a fair number of relationships where the woman was either out and out larger or in far better physical condition than was the man. And second, you leave out the contingent for same sex unions. Though, I do realise your question is formulated around a discussion on a specific topic in another forum. It doesn't become 'okay' to physically abuse someone who has tender feelings for you just because you might roughly be the same height, weight and physical condition.

[Nikia]

46. In situations like my husband and I, definitely not

He outweighs be by two and a half times and is almost a foot taller. He can eaily lift me over his head from the floor. I can lift about 50 pounds off the floor but not over my head. If I, or someone like me, hit him I would not do any permanent damage. He, on the otherhand, probably could kill me with punches.
I suppose in some circumstances the situation might be reversed, especially if the man is suffering from some kind of physical disability. The situation is rarer not only because men tend to be stronger, but because men don't seem to want to be in a situation where they are dating someone stronger.
If a man is in a situation where he is not very strong and needs to defend himself, hitting her would be acceptable. If a man is strong like my husband, he needs to use restraint.
In any circumstances, hitting back is a bad idea, not only because it is mean to one you love but also further escalates the situation.

[Debi]

47. I know I'm going to be in the minority here and probably get some

flames. I don't believe men or women should hit each other. That being said, I believe that a man should not have to endure a beating from a woman just because she is a woman. Either he needs to leave (and fast) or he should shove/strike back enough to leave.

I've seen too many domestic violence situations where a woman has struck a man/thrown things at a man/shoved a man and when he retaliates he gets arrested.

I just don't agree with it.

Okay, come and get me.....

[flvegan]

49. It's in the fairness of the fight.

It'll never be simply man versus woman. Suggesting that a man hitting a woman, when the man is 160 lbs and she's Ms. Olympia in the middle of a wild bout of 'roid rage, is somewhat lacking in denial of it being in defense. Also, if she has a baseball bat or something deadly, then it's defense. Also, if there's immediate, likely harm to a child/children, then it's also up for debate.

That said, if it's the typical woman slugs man situation, then no, he has no right nor reason to hit her back if the situation can be otherwise controlled. Walking away, if an option, is the first thing he should attempt. If she were to persist, then she should be stopped in a more nonviolent manner, such as a full-nelson. Restraint, without injuring, is fair. Then, let the cops decide. I think that cops showing up on a scene where a man, having called 911, has his beloved in restraint (much like an officer would use), while he sports the black eye, will have a much better chance in proving up his case.

[Solon]

50. OK, I have a confession of sorts...

My best friend is female, and she weighs about 120 pounds or so, and a few times she would get in a mood saying she wants to wrestle, and let me tell you, she was freaking strong. I'm damned near twice her weight and she threw ME down on the ground and was able to pin me. Granted it was in fun, but after she tried to gouge out my eyes, all bets were off, and she still beat my ass. Granted we didn't trade punches or anything, it was mostly grappling and stuff, but restraining a woman isn't exactly easy, and so I say it depends on the circumstances. By the way, she still won't let me live that down! :)

[StellaBlue]

51. I chose 'depends on the circumstances'

My last ex hit me several times:

slapped me a few times, when I'd slapped him first (both in the face), never harder than I'd slapped him

hit me in the nose once after I'd gotten so infuriated at him that I pulled his hair (we were in bed, trying to go to sleep, arguing, and it was dark, and he didn't know where his blow would land, so I DON'T think this was okay, as it was WAY harder than me pulling his hair)

etc.

I *always* hit him first. Well, slapped him. But, as anyone who was familiar with the situation would tell you, he actually needed to be slapped. Big time. He was a total asshole.

Having said that, I do think that violence is NEVER the answer. But, in the real world, if a woman hits a man first, he probably has the right to hit her back, but not harder. If she's pummeling him or cornering him or sitting on him or something, he definitely has the right to hit her.

To say that a man should NEVER hit a woman is to accord women some super-human status, put us on a pedestal. I think that just sets us up for more equality. Though I have LOTS of problems with my ex (his personality, I mean, not with HIM, I don't talk to him), I don't think he was out of line to slap me back. I shouldn't have slapped him. I was more wrong.

[philosophie_en_rose]

52. Domestic Violence is about control, not simply hitting.

If any person is assaulted, they have the right to use the amount of force necessary to escape the situation and that is proportional to imminent harm. Just because someone hits you, does not mean you get to hit them.

Domestic Violence is not about hitting. It's about control and a pattern of coercive behavior. If a woman can isolate a man, physically intimidate him, and terrorize him, then he should have every opportunity to leave and be safe. Just as she should. However, I am concerned that you are reducing the situation to "who hit whom first," which is simplistic.

For instance, I listened to a lecture by a woman who was trapped by her abuser. The abuser locked her in a room and blocked the entrance when he was in there with her. She pinched him really hard and then scratched his arm when he moved to pull her back into the room. Who was arrested? She was, because he had marks. Under your scenario, he might be justified in scratching her or pinching her. He didn't rape her or beat her, but he physically trapped her and blocked her from leaving because she was too uppity for him. He actually prayed over her to make her a subservient wife. :eyes:

We must look at the entirety of the situation. The first question is - who has the control? Who can leave? If anyone (man or woman) is randomly attacked, then they need to call the police and not beat the shit out of someone.

Battered Women's Syndrome is real. Survivors are often so abused that violence is seen as the only way out. However, I don't see that in your debate opponent's scenario.


http://www.ncadv.org/
http://www.wcsap.org/
http://www.wscadv.org/

[LSdemocrat]

53. Equally wrong no matter who does the hitting

Men shouldn't hit women and women shouldn't hit men. Violence is violence.

[TexasLady]

54. agreed...

Ive known many a violent woman...who was down right abusing a man in the relationship..he would get laughed at, and I dont see anything funny about it. no more than a woman getting the shit beat out of her..what I HAVE learned is most of the time, if you get involved..its disastrous! they(the violent couple) will band together and hate YOU for getting in the middle!(although I could care less a couple times, because intervention was just NEEDED)

[eyepaddle]

55. I've chugged through about half the thread, so perhaps I've

missed this point, but this discussion seems to hinge on what the aim of a physical confrontation is. If the aim is anything other than to simply end the confrontation, that seems purely vindictive to me and therefore wrong.

Who can say what it would take to end the "situation" in all cases? It's never really come up for me personally. I am pretty even tempered, and also very large, so I'm having to speculate in general terms here.

A friend of mine (who incidentally was a boxer) let his wife rough him up. She on one occasion hit him in the mouth with a bottle and knocked out his front teeth, he reamined calm and did NOT punch back--but where she learned the behaviour that hitting men was accpetable I'll never guess.

I'll close with the obligatory blanket statement about how violence is wrong. It's been said a bunch, but is still amazingly true.

[uppityperson]

56. It is ok to hit in self defense, but not ok to hit back just because you..

were hit. OK to hit only in self defense.