Tolkein blows, Rowlings sucks, Pratchet rocks

[TheBaldyMan]

discuss

:I refuse to use the popcorn Gizmo:

[Gatchaman]

1. I'll agree with the Rowling sucks part

but what's the problem with Tolkien? If you don't like the movies that's one thing, but the books are something else again.

[TheBaldyMan]

3. IMO he's a snob, I read his stuff but the more I read the less

inclined I was to see the world through his waspish lens.

I remember when I was still a kid my brother told me that I was an orc, I thought he was just being mean but years later I realised he was just trying enlighten me about JRRT's opinion about the 'lower' orders. I consequently became rather more sympathetic to orcs, as they were based on the same grimy, crude, industrial workers I was raised with.

[skygazer]

9. I absolutely disagree

When you write about good and evil, someone necessarily has to be the bad guy. I offer my favorite JRR Tolkien quote as somewhat of a rebuttal. It was a reply given to the Nazi's in 1938 when they were trying to get permission to reprint The Hobbit in German. When they asked him if he was "arisch" or Aryan, he replied,

"I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction; that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only regret that I appear to have NO ancestors of that gifted people."

Doesn't sound like a man who looks down on others to me.

[TheBaldyMan]

12. he had no problem with the rural oiks but when it came to England's

industrial areas he despised their living conditions and the brutish outlook that they engendered. People were stunted, unhealthy and violent unlike the sound limbed and hale lads from the gentler shires. I think he developed a distaste for them in the trenches in the Great War when he lived in close proximity with a majority of working class soldiers.

[skygazer]

13. Where did you get your information?

I'm not accusing you of fabricating - I've just never heard that about him. That said, there are plenty of people here on DU who talk down about the poor and uneducated of the US (the so-called "hicks" and "hillbillies" and "trailer trash" who people seem to feel don't deserve any compassion or concern). Doesn't make it right but if those were his views, I don't see it as a valid reason to trash his literary contributions which, IMO, were brilliant.

I will, however, agree with you that JK Rowling is vastly overrated. I find her writing style pedestrian and dull and her plots to be... well, boring. I went into the series expecting to like it - I thought the premise of a school for sorcerers was very clever. I read the first book in its entirety and wasn't very impressed but gave the second a try. I couldn't even finish it.

The only Pratchett I've read is his collaboration with Gaiman, Good Omens, which I think is one of the best books I've ever read.

[TheBaldyMan]

14. his biography is by Humphrey Carpenter & well worth a read,

he was a child of his time, born at the end of the 19th Cent. to parents who were in colonial Civil Service, boarding school in England and then an Oxford University don. At that time Englishman of his station were raised to be rulers of the Empire, they had an innate sense of superiority.

Although he was a bit bookish he did serve in the trenches as an officer in WWI and received a discharge on medical grounds. It was there that he came into intimate contact with the great unwashed from the huge industrial cities for the first time. He did comment on the difference between the rural lads and the harder uncouth ones from the towns and cities, from their appearance to the way they spoke. He also had a great dislike for the industrial landscape, something akin to Pittsburg at the same time I suppose. Britain was heavily scarred by industrial activity around this time and I think that's one of the reasons he was so fond of green spaces and trees. Every town in Britain was pretty much jet-black with grime and soot and were still pretty Dickensian places.

Personally I have to admit to having a bit of a chip on my shoulder about this because the people he viewed with distaste I have found to be every bit as human as anyone. A bit rough but great company. I have a lot more in common with them than some toff who wants to go back to the Dark Ages. Most people in Britain are from an industrial urban background. We invented the steam engine and kick started the industrial revolution.

online illustrated biography not as detailed as Carpenters book but gives you an idea of the country he preferred.

[skygazer]

16. Thanks for the info

I'll give it a read.

I don't much like it when people feel a sense of superiority either so I can understand your point and I appreciate your candor in admitting you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. Most people can't admit it when they do. I've always said, I don't feel like I'm better than anyone else but I also don't think anyone is better than I.

That generation certainly did have that sense of superiority, though, didn't they? I always get a kick out of Agatha Christie's descriptions of "the help" - they are always superstitious, ignorant and gullible. :eyes:

[KatyMan]

32. I beg to differ...

Tolkien was orphaned (along with his brother) at a young age, and raised by a family friend (a priest) in Birmingham. His schooling, both at King Edwards and Oxford, was as a result of his own accomplishment. I can't recall anything that I've read by or of him (including his letters) where he looked down on or frowned upon the workers or the downtrodden; as I recall he was the opposite, very aware of the fact that England was a class conscious society, and sorry for it (it's in one of his letters). I doubt there was anyone in England at the time who would have preferred the soot and grime of the industrialized cities of Birmingham, Sheffield, etc to the West Midlands countryside.

And calling him a "toff who wants to go back to the Dark Ages" is quite an insult to a learned, well respected scholar and family man (and this respect was earned long before his books were published). Your comment suggests that you started reading the book with an opinion already formed, which you're sticking with no matter what the facts of his life were.

[TheBaldyMan]

36. I did write a lot of my post on his biog from memory so a few

inaccuracies did creep in, he did not attend boarding school but he did attend King Edwards in Birmingham, this is quite a posh school. At worst you could describe his circumstances as genteel poverty.

I stand by my comments about his distate for urban workers as well as his hankering after a bygone golden age when Anglo-Saxons inhabited a heroic age. If you have read LotR at all you may pick up on the thinly disguised allusion to urban working classes, especially those who worked in heavy industry. You may also pick up on the heavy influence of pre-feudal germano-celtic influence.

He was a very learned man. He was a loving father. He was a respected scholar. This does not free him from all suspicion that he may not like working class people. You must also bear in mind that the station he achieved in life was nearly impossible for anyone outside the middle classes to achieve. There are quite a few artists, scientists and engineers who rose from abject poverty but it was an easier ride if you came from the right background.

[Aristus]

17. I love "Good Omens!

"They had been lurking for most of the night, but they had been pacing themselves, and felt ready to put on a good burst of lurking right before dawn."

I think that's it; I am quoting from memory.

[EstimatedProphet]

28. Good Omens is a fantastic book!

Just interjecting...

[Orrex]

2. The Discworld series includes about 10 *great *books

I'll let you decide which ten.

Pratchett has now written approximately 2,000 novels about The Watch, which is probably about 1,995 too many. Great characters, but that well has run dry.

[TheBaldyMan]

19. my favourite Pratchett novels, excluding his non-discworld stuff are

In no particular order

• The Colour of Magic
  
• Mort
  
• Wyrd Sisters
  
• Lords and Ladies
  
• Small Gods
  
• Guards! Guards!
  
• The Fifth Elephant

I could go on.

I'd recommend reading 'The Colour of Magic' or 'Mort' first. His latest ones have been really good because they seem to have a darker preoccupation with war. 'Montrous Regiment' & 'Going Postal' weren't the best ever but I liked them both.

[Orrex]

20. Greatly preferred his older stuff

I've followed Pratchett since about 1990, and thanks to the friend who recommended him, I read the books in order of publication. Not that the chronology really makes a difference for the most part, but it's enjoyable (to me) to trace the author's writing as it was first put down, rather than the willy-nilly way I'd probably do it if I tried to start reading Discworld today.

My five favorites, in no real order:

Mort
Guards! Guards!
Pyramds
The Colour of Magic
Reaper Man
Truth

Okay, that's six. At least it's not Eight!

After Guards! Guards!, pretty much every Watch-based story was redundant for me. But I really liked Truth, in part because it included the Watch as sideline characters, seen from the outside. That was an interesting narrative choice not really seen in Pratchett since Rincewind's trip to Death's realm in The Light Fantastic.

[TheBaldyMan]

21. You said THAT number, the one between seven and nine !

I usually read them in hardback as they come out, either via the library (long waiting list) or borrowing them off friends. I have to admit Sammy Vimes is one of my favourite characters so I don't mind if Terry has overdone it a bit.

[Orrex]

23. One minor Geek-point

Only Death has appeared in every book to date. I like that he's a constant presence on the Discworld, just like on this round one.

[TheBaldyMan]

31. another minor geek point, is Death a FReeper ?

he does use caps lock an awful lot, he's self-employed, constantly armed and bone-headed.

[Orrex]

34. LOL! Good question

Of course, as we read in Reaper Man, Death dislikes drama, and we know that Freepers are all about the drama.

Hard to say.

[Squatch]

4. The greatest sci-fi/fantasy writer, ever, is Stephen King

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. No.

He's not even in the top 10.

[Book Lover]

24. What has he written that can be called fantasy? (nm)

[Squatch]

26. Dark Tower series

[Book Lover]

29. Ok

After seeing what I could see online, I'll have to check it out, but I have to say at first blush that in my opinion this seems much closer to the Jack Chalker/Roger Zelazny style of sci-fi rather than fantasy. But whatever... I ain't fighting over semantics...

[XemaSab]

5. I'll fuck your shit up

for talking shit about Rowling. :grr:

[TheBaldyMan]

6. I suppose your going to get Billyskank to give me an indian burn ?

:P

[XemaSab]

8. I might just do that.

[TheBaldyMan]

10. ...

:scared:

[malmapus]

11. Never was fond of Tolkein's writing style

But I still have respect for the guy, and everything he created. Heck, still read his works every year, but just hate the way he wrote it lol :D

[smirkymonkey]

15. Frost heaves...

sorry :shrug:

[SaveElmer]

18. ARVADA KADAVRA....

That'll teach ya!!!

[Rob H.]

22. Pratchett should look into this newfangled thing called "chapters"

I know I'm being nitpicky, but still. It drove me crazy when I tried to read Guards! Guards!

That said, I thought Good Omens was hilarious. :D

[hfojvt]

25. Popcorn is almost never appropriate

you shoulda used this one

:hide:

BTW who the heck is Pratchet?
Was he Scrooge's clerk or something?
Or was it that weird German spoof on SNL?

[TheBaldyMan]

30. Pratchet is a misspelling, I meant Terry Pratchett, of Discworld fame

[Pithlet]

27. I like all three.

:shrug:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

33. You're going to hell for talking shit on Tolkien!

And I have a right mind to send you there myself!! :grr: :grr: :nuke:

[TheBaldyMan]

37. here is a quote from the great man himself (Pratchett not JRRT)

Terry Pratchett said:

If you don't believe that Tolkien is the greatest writer there ever was when you are 13 years old there is something wrong with you. If you still believe that when you are 53 there really is something wrong with you.

If you are a teenager then I understand, if you're over twenty you still have my sympathy but for different reasons.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. And who is Terry Pratchett?

Oh, that's right, no one.

[TheBaldyMan]

40. he's a grown-up

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

41. So is Bush.

That doesn't make either of them very intelligent.

[TheBaldyMan]

42. Pratchett can string whole paragraphs together, never mind a sentence

seriously read 'the Colour of Magic' then tell me if Tolkien is the Chuck Norris of fantasy literature.

[MissHoneychurch]

35. I LOVE Pratchett

I read all of his disc world books and also the carpet people. I always look for his new books. His are with the only books I buy in hardcover because I can't wait till they come out in paperback.

[Left Is Write]

38. Every time I see "Tolkein blows"...

all I can think of his SNL's "Colon Blow."

I do not know why.

Back to your regularly scheduled literary discussion now.

[izzybeans]

43. Art Snob Solutions

by Of Montreal

ART SNOB SOLUTIONS

What’s up directors? Grab your knives!
It’s time to take all all of the lives
Of the people who cannot see the somnolent genius of Tarkovsky

Come on authors grab your guns!
It’s time to murder everyone who has never heard of Apollinaire
Send them all to hell it’s only fair

Cast them all into the flames if they don’t know any names
Of the principles of Arte Povera
Or are unfamiliar with le serpent mascara
That’s right mascara snake!!!

Come on painters alive or dead
Give all the cretins a boot to the head
If they don’t extoll convincingly
Tempered Elan era Kandinsky

Throw them all into a well if they cannot tell
An Arto Parv feast of repitition from a Schoenburg 12 tone composition

Come on artists the day is here
And your mission is very clear
Put an end to the bourgoussie
And death to everyone who’s never heard of me