I REALLLLLLYYYY detest Orson Scott Card--who's with me?

[eyepaddle]

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-02-05-1.html

What a pompous ass, as well as intellectually dishonest (especially see his post on ID vs. "Darwinism"--for the record biologists have MANY more criticisms of Behe's work than the strawmen OS Card trots out. Can you beleive this shitbag calls himself a Democrat?!?! :wtf:

Dude, whether you left the party, or the party left you is irrelevant--you ain't in the party no more; deal with it.

Interestingly enough, very few of the posters on his forums seem to agree with him. Every few months I check in to see if he can admit to being WRONG about Bush. I should save myself the trouble--he can't.

[LeftyMom]

1. I like a lot of his books

but he has his head up his ass on some things. He's a Mormon, so his stupid politics and near obsession with reproducing to assert one's adulthood and responsibility are to be expected.

[WindRavenX]

8. holy shit I forgot about that

No wonder my ex-Mormon SO hates that aspect-it reminds him too much of the mormon culture :scared:

[Left Is Write]

26. I liked "Enchantment" quite a bit.

[sweetheart]

2. enders game

is an excellent work, one of the first books i can think of
to actually grasp the power of the political blog.

don't know his politics... but his scifi is engrossing.

[Laelth]

20. Speaker for the Dead ...

... is my favorite from that series. Very interesting future religion Card envisions.

-Laelth

[mzteris]

34. A very sick future religion

I think he's into S&M myself.

It's all about the pain and suffering. Card has a "Christ complex" - it runs rampant through his books.

[MissMillie]

31. That series was really good

most specifically "Speaker for the Dead"

[mzteris]

33. Excellent?

So you think kicking the sh*T out of someone if they're bullying you is a good idea?

You think exterminating an entire world of people is a good idea if you feel threatened?

Sorry - these aren't values I think are appropriate. ESPECIALLY as this book is targeted at the young adult set.

Somebody bothering you? Kick their ass.

Feeling threatened? Burn down their house.

Card sounds like Bush. An articulate Bush, but Bush, nonetheless.

[petronius]

37. But don't you think that one of the major themes in Ender's Game

was how Ender dealt with the guilt of those actions? It was hardly a simplistic endoresment of the 'kill-the-other' philosophy...

Also, I would say that the "Shadow..." sequels to EG are not particularly kind to the Bushian mindset.

[mzteris]

39. From the "christ complex"

POV - sure....... look how I sacrificed for you. . . blah blah blah.

Think about it - that "theme" runs through nearly all of his books.

I read nearly everything he's written up until 2002 - when I heard him speak - and realized what a warmongering rightwingut he was. Alright, I actually read a couple after that, but then he really started to creep me out with the 12 yo girl having astral sex with a grown man and the one about evicting the soul/spirit of the person who killed you and taking over their life. It was only fair. . . :sarcasm:

Here's some good takes on OSC and his little quirks.

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034

[sweetheart]

40. Here's what i liked

He painted an excellent picture, one of the earliest in science fiction,
of the anonymous political discussion board. You can't not like that
as a DU writer, it was pretty way before the internet, and rather visionary
to project a DU of the future like he did.

THe learning machines in the book were well composed as well. I like science
fiction that incorporates an element of reality, "verisimilitude", that the
concept is not just fantastic fantasy. Like when i see a "nuclear" detonation
in space, in a film, i laugh, as often they make a flat ring around it, as if
it were in gravity... and it spoils the entire verisimilitude for me, and
my suspended dispbelief in the story is fractured.

He described the educational world for kids today, how they are selected in
to military programs at a young age like video games, and how they are totally
removed from the tactile death that their video click's cause. I'm sure you
saw that video clip of the A10 over afganistan that was posted on DU,
where this gunship just flys in a circle gunning down people who are running
away in fear of their lives from the mosque building, all the while the pilot's
over dialog sounded like teenagers playing a video game.

If his fiction offends you, it was written way in advance, and we have
had plenty of time to avoid this political development that has brought
youth selection in to an imperial non-questioning military service, quite
the reality.

It is the story of the dutiful son who fights for his country unquestioningly,
and only in his later, reconcles all that ethically (later books). That story
could be that of any of our own kids who is drafted out of high school to
operate fantastic remote gunnery platforms from elite command bunkers.

When you are able to write a novel as coherently as Card did with that series,
then your criticism will have more weight. I think his science fiction
belongs on any best collection, no matter what his personal politics website.

I find similarly with ayn rand... so what, fountainhead's a good read
on a sick rainy winter day, or not, if you can't suspend your politics
whilst the curtain is up.

[mzteris]

42. I'll give you - him -

some of the ideas (though are they REALLY his??)

but as for this statement: "reconcles all that ethically (later books). "

I say resoundingly he doesn't. Well, he does in his OWN twisted mind and sense of "ethics" - what passes for ethics in Cards brain is about what passes for ethics in the neocon/bushco org.

See the links to people who can put it far better than I (and who have published SF).

http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034

Besides, since when do I have to be a "successful SF author" to decide he's a very sick puppy.

edit to add links.

[sweetheart]

49. thanks for that

I agree that the morals are fluffy.

My favourite morality tale is the mahabharata, one where
nothing is black and white. The distrubing clarity of righteousness
is very much behind the militarism in our culture. Perhaps i found
the book so common as the militarism and abuse i grew up with were
not so dissimilar. Our culture thrives on abusing its own, so to
tell a tale about and abused child who is trained from youth to
kill millions, is too much a story of every day children who
are abused for no reason..

Perhaps that is part of the appeal of his fiction, that all of
the persons who are abused can read about their purification
in the abstract... one out of 4 american womn who are raped
in thier life can read the book and fantisize that it was for
a higher purpose to prepare her for battle with the buggers.

I'm suprised nobody has taken a shot at putting ender's game in to
film... that said, we'll likely see it. Round that time, there
was a film like "the last starfighter" or something like that,
about a kid who similarly is abducted by his video gaming talents
to "save the world" in a very similar morality tale.

One thing i'll hand it to 'em, he's made a lot more money
publishing his written work than i have with any publication.
Perhaps the mindset it takes to comprehend the mainstream
so well is the very reason i don't. :-)

My bad, you're published SF, and it makes a diff to me.
You can distinguish between the story and the writer, that
the writing is not "you", but your work. Too many persons who
have not written professionally are very identified with
their work. Card is not his book, it is a frozen piece of
consciousness from a cold war arms buildup, justifying
propaganda for the poor kid in SAC HQ who actually *did* push
the button.

[mzteris]

52. hmmm - now that you mention it.....

"The Last Starfighter" came out in 1984 & Ender's Game in 1985...


I think you're right about the "fantisize that it was for a higher purpose to prepare her for battle"

When I first read that book - back in the 80's - I LOVED it. ('course I was still voting Republican back then. shhh...)

Um - I'm not published SF - though I wish I were! The links were to some another SF writer... Have you read any of Kessel's work? Some of his short-stories are a bit "edgy".

[sweetheart]

53. snicker

It's funny, but as you get me to thinking about my period of admiring reagan (mea culpa),
and ya know, when he was dissing government, questioning its moral basis in his cheekey
way, i kinda thought it was a laugh. I didn't take him serious like, just it was a tongue
in cheek thing, whatever need be done to end the cold war, and what really was an evil
empire. I think that people today discount the power of the cold war at that time, how
it's thinking was pervasive, the binary zero sum loyalty equation; something so so
different than today. And back then it seemed so optimistically simple, that if
the last starfighter did his job righto, then good for all of us. Now, when i think
of the last starfighter, i think of somebody killing a thousand people in a middle
eastern prison with high explosive bombs.. a less appealing concept of the new "ender".

I now realize that reagan was seerious, and that government has never since seemed as
legitimate or as authentic... of course this coincided with the further escalation of the
war on drugs that drives a stake through every city.. rant... i'm in the lounge ... chill..
ooh...

Just you do remind me, how it really did seem innocent, how the morality tale of this
book and that film, both supported a "good" fight at the time. I guess the backdrop of
reagan's ww2 generation was always the fierce comradarie that kept the world free back
then, something so incredibly trust-emotive-evoking propaganda.

I've not read Kessel.. i'll have a search about abebooks.com. Love a good read, thanks.

[SeattleGirl]

3. I've never paid attention to his politics

I like his books.

[eyepaddle]

4. Here's a snippet from the column

It also governs his thinking on other matters. The Left denigrates his outreach programs, like the massive funding to fight AIDS in Africa, and he gets bad press even when he does things that the Left should love -- but throughout his presidency, the evidence is there.

The Left even sneers at his migrant worker program, though it is obviously the only thing that can seriously curtail illegal immigration, and if it had been proposed by a Democrat, it would be hailed by the Left as the salvation of America

snip

Instead of increasing welfare, you cut taxes to strengthen the economy -- which will grow new jobs quite naturally. Real jobs, that produce goods and services that people actually want.

In short, President Bush is a visionary, even a revolutionary; he is also a superb manager who does not waste his time trying to micromanage everything himself. He delegates; he campaigns for his programs; he gets out when a boat doesn't float, but he doesn't scuttle it, he repairs it and tries again.

end

He just goes spiralling to the nutball right more with each passing week.

[SeattleGirl]

5. Eeeew! Sounds like he lives in a fantasy world, as well as

writes about them. Thanks for the snippet.

[eyepaddle]

6. I'd like to say you're welcome, but maybe I should apologize

instead!

Sorry for tarnishing a good fiction writer for you. I think you've hit the nail on the head--he must live in a fantasy land, that certainly would explain a lot.

I must admit though, that the commentariat on ornery.org seems to be a pretty erudite and generally thoughtful bunch. There's more than a few craks, but isn't that the nature of the internet?

(fyi--no, I do not post there, it's just to aggravating to hve to go through that front page)

[SeattleGirl]

9. No apology necessary

I sometimes choose to keep reading/watching something by someone whose politics I can't stand; other times I don't. For instance, I used to like Everybody Loves Raymond, but when I found out Patricia Heaton was a Repuke, I just couldn't see the show in the same way. Everytime I see her on an Albertson's Supermarket commercial, I want to puke. Yet I don't have that reaction to Card. Go figger, eh?

[politicat]

7. Agreed. Boring books. Crappy politics. Poor reasoning.

Ender's was dumb. The rest are worse.

Children. Military school. Wars against bugs. WTF?

I didn't even bother with the rest of that series - because, yanno, when the Mormon kid is the only one who can save the universe, it's time to put the book away.

And don't let me get started on the Alvin books...

What a waste of good pulp he is.

[benburch]

10. Jerry Pournelle is worse!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=228&topic_id=18964&mesg_id=19104

[hunter]

16. Jerry Pournelle saved my sorry ass once, so I am honor bound to STFU.

He used to post things filthy drunk. I was just crazy.

[eyepaddle]

29. Whoa, what an asshole

I haven't had time to readmuch SF these last few years, but I can save myself the trouble on Pournelle.

Plus I'm glad I checked the rest of the thread, quantum theory of gravity, eh? I'd say that qualifies as momentous, I have to leave soon (the rivers are raging, I'm going paddling!) :woohoo: but I am defintiely looking into that when I return. Thanks!

[khashka]

11. Check the archives of the GLBT forum

Talk about a homophobic motherfucker!

Khash.

[hunter]

18. I missed that, and I'm sort of afraid to look.

:hide:

[murielm99]

25. Yeah, that was my post.

He is such a vicious homophobe that I will never read or buy one of his books again.

Who the HELL does he think he is?

[petronius]

12. I really enjoy his books

His personal ideology does come through in them, and I don't always agree with him, but I do like his writing.

Never seen his website though - it does look a bit asinine...

[XemaSab]

13. He's a lot like Neal Stephenson for me

Where I either really liked his books, or REALLY HATED them.

But yeah, his politics are appalling.

[BlueIris]

14. Right here, with the destesting. I LOATHE Ender's Game. LOATHE IT.

Every time I think about that book, I just want to puke.

[hunter]

15. I do not detest truly crazy people.

Card is a loon. I used to have some interaction with him back in our Atari 800 days. Something seems to have snapped inside his head, and the first thing he grabbed onto to pull himself out of it was his religion.

Too bad he wasn't a Buddhist.

[Jean Louise Finch]

17. I do

Don't know a thing about him except my obnoxious freshman year roommate liked him. So, I detest him. I'm with you.

[hfojvt]

19. I am sorry to hear that

when I sold books I heard from alot of people who liked him as an author. I never actually read one his books to find out if I agree or not, but I probably still own a bunch of them.

That was painful to read. Praise of George Bush and criticism of Ted Kennedy. Ted Kennedy actually wants to make the world a better place. George W. Bush is just fu$%ing evil.

[Orsino]

21. He's not a Democrat.

His column flails about, in 2006, for excuses to support Bush Republicanism--and in the same column he dares to call himself a moderate.

No one is that deluded. He's lying.

[LostinVA]

22. He's a friend of a friend, and I used to socialize with him when I lived

in Greensboro. He is a total RW jerk. Some on DU slammed me in the past for saying this, so I'm glad to see this thread. He's also arrogant as hell...

[terrya]

23. He's a vicious homophobe

He spewed some homophobic bullshit a while back. Homosexuals are sick, evil, disgusting, etc, fucking etc. That's a deal breaker for me nowadays.

[eyepaddle]

28. I think that's how I heard about his site (the homophobia BS)

A different site I like did a story on him--I think it was eightball magazine (now 8bm.com ) and I thoght, "I've heard of OS Card--in fact Iron Maiden did a concept album based on one of his books in th 80s--I'll check out his site!"

(cue the sound of a car wreck, complete with screeching tires, crunching metal and shatttering glass)

Was I ever in for a disappointing shock--I'm not gay, but I recognize 100% pure unhinged-asshole when I see it, and this was it. He seems to have only sunk lower in the last couple of years.

His politics and views will keep me from ever paying for one of his books--that much is certain.

[mzteris]

35. but having sex with underage girls is ok

- one of his books "The Treasure Box", I think - has a young girl engaging in sex (through astral projection or something, I think) - with an adult male.

[Random_Australian]

24. What a doofus. My goodness gracious me.

This scientist in training has been doing 'Logical Fallacies' in Psychology (my little hobby ;) ) this week, and my usually capacious mind was swamped.

What a gimboid. Dipstick f*ck.

'Oh no wait, I've been told this ten thousand times since 9/11... the Muslims are not a violent people' and he shits his pants giggling at his own perceived wit.

Thank the lucky stars I never saw his ID posts, I would have had a stroke. Or at least a mild headache!

[Orrex]

27. Sign me up! He's wildly overpraised and under-criticized

[Shine]

30. I'm not really familiar with his politics, but I have really enjoyed his

books, I must say.

:hi:

[khashka]

43. Some are good - I'll be fair

The Ender Trilogy is brilliant. But he hates homosexuals - and it comes across in his other books and on his website.


Khash.

[Shine]

47. Yup, the Ender books were great.

did you ever check out his tales of Alvin Maker series? You'd probably like them, Khash. He incorporates the lore and folk magic of our early settlers to create an America that is quite interesting.

I don't remember them being particularly negative towards homosexuals....but of course, it's been many years since I've read his work.

[mzteris]

32. That psychopath

is NOT a Democrat! He's a warmonger for one.

The guy is just sick, sick, sick, sick.

He has a "christ-complex" but advocates extreme violence.

Geesh - don't get me started.

[Atmashine]

36. Aw..

I liked his books. Sucks to be him, cause I'm not going to buy anymore.

[Taverner]

38. He's a hack SF writer

Hated Enders Game, he and Larry Niven can fuck off

[redqueen]

46. Niven too?

:(

[khashka]

48. What's the deal with Niven, Tav?

Obviously, something I don't know....


Khash.

[Taverner]

50. He's a fascist freeper

Basically in one essay he justified the PNAC, and the war in Iraq saying we should spread democracy, etc...

[khashka]

51. Thanks. I'll check it out n/t

Khash.

[IntravenousDemilo]

41. At one time, I wanted to adapt one of his novellas as a musical.

Songhouse. It even has a perfect title. I even spoke to him over the phone about it when he was at Duke U -- he thought it would be better as an oratorio.

This was in 1981. Is that before he got all, you know, religiously weird and shit?

At any rate, I since lost the paperback the novella was included in, and once he revealed himself to be a homophobic asshole I never bothered trying to find it again.

[redqueen]

44. ME!

I loved Ender's Game, but when I found out his political beliefs were SO bad for this country and the world, I lost all enthusiasm for his work. :(

[pitohui]

45. i won't give him the clicks

i've met the guy and he is a two-faced evil piece of work

[elshiva]

54. I've got to shelve his books everyday. Don't want to read any of that.