Grammar Gripe

[Orrex]

Someone explain to me why a comma is no longer required between the second-last item in a list and the word "and." For example

Prizes were awarded to Andy, Betty, Charlie, Diane and Eddie.

To me this implies that Diane and Eddie are in a two-member set in addition to being in the five-member set. Heck, Diana and Eddie might not even like each other.

Way back when I was in school, the convention was to put a comma before the "and," like so:

Prizes were awarded to Andy, Betty, Charlie, Diane, and Eddie.

What happened to the final comma, dammit?!?

[BigMcLargehuge]

1. Diane and Eddie are dating

so they are a couple and not a pair of individual objects in the sentence.

[Magrittes Pipe]

3. Slut.

x(

[johnnie]

2. Hmm?

Are you sure? I never remember that last comma being there. Of course, I might have been absent that day.

[wildhorses]

4. it went the same place that the second slash mark on the

dollar sign went...

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. it just is

I used to do that until i worked at a student newspaper in college and was told it goes against AP style. And you don't go against AP style. :scared:

[realisticphish]

20. FUCK AP

Viva la MLA!

[miss_american_pie]

27. Woohoo an AP v MLA flamewar

:rofl:

[realisticphish]

31. YOU LIKE AP?

Facist pice of shit. They use AP in freepville :D

[miss_american_pie]

32. See downthread

I'm a purist. None of that common AP here. Didn't Ayn Rand use AP? :P

[realisticphish]

35. alright Comrade

I'll scratch your name off The List :D

[miss_american_pie]

36. Bwahaha

:thumbsup:

[Magrittes Pipe]

6. Laziness.

You are, of course, entirely correct. The absence of the comma preceding the "and" links the final two items in the series. Yet recent English texts have been treating said comma as optional.

Language changes. This said, text should not be teaching things that are patently incorrect.

[eyepaddle]

7. I think it's called the Oxford comma

I'm not sure why it fell into complete disuse. Probably it had something to do with seeming redundant. Sometimes I want use it, and sometimes I don't.

All I know is, punctuation and Grammar can get (the few) people who care riled up in a hurry!

[Faygo Kid]

8. Associated Press Stylebook

From journalism school, 30+ years ago and still valid now: Don't use a comma before a conjunction in a series: The national flag is red, white and blue.

[RebelOne]

13. Still the same in my 1998 version, but reworded a little.

Use commas to separate elements in a series, but do not put a comma before the conjunction in a simple series: The flag is red, white and blue. He would nominate Tom, Dick and Harry.

[Orrex]

15. Does that mean that the "and" implies the comma, then?

Hmm.

Not sure how I feel about this. I may have to abandon the language altogether.

[hfojvt]

60. I think that is the way I learned it

back in the 1970s. That the last comma was optional. I always put it in anyway.

[NewWaveChick1981]

9. Criteria have shifted over time.

It pisses me off about the lack of a final comma. I was taught throughout elementary school, junior high, high school, and college (YES, DAMMIT, I USED A FINAL COMMA! LOL) that there was always a final comma. I think dropping the final comma is a commentary on how sloppy and and lazy people have gotten with grammar, syntax, and puncuation. If you haven't read Lynne Truss' Eats Shoots and Leaves, you really should. It's an excellent explanation of how things have gotten this bad.

[eyepaddle]

12. I forget the exact passage in that book,

but I like to use commas (and other punctuation) to, mimic my desired flow of...speech.

Granted, that was obviously a very exagerated sentence but I like the occasional pause for effect. I'm assuming AP doesn't think that is appropiate for journalism and only clutters things up.

[eyesroll]

10. AP style eliminates the serial comma.

I don't really know why -- economy of space, maybe, back when every comma counted for the typesetters? (My stylebook disappeared years ago or I'd look it up.)

I've been writing in AP style for the last several years, so I almost never include that last comma. It's just habit.

[Magrittes Pipe]

11. I know, and that's probably what precipitated this mess.

People read things written in AP style. AP style is, in this case, improper English. However, it is what is read; and is therefore what is written.

[BurtWorm]

14. Commas are disappearing after states and years, too.

Jack Schitz from Miami, Florida knows bupkes.

July 4, 1776 was a great date. (So was Jack Schitz from Miami, Florida I am told.)

[NewWaveChick1981]

16. I know, and it really chaps my ass!

Good grammar and spelling is disappearing, too.

[Bill McBlueState]

53. doncha mean

*are* disappearing?

:evilgrin:

[NewWaveChick1981]

54. You're right.

That's what I get for being in a hurry. :dunce:

[slide to the left]

17. Its called an oxford comma

The last comma is called an oxford comma. You do not put a comma after a conjunctions (ie, red, white and blue) unless there is a concluding conjunction (toast, eggs, and ham and cheese). The only time there would be an oxford comma in your example is if is was, " Andy, Betty, Charlie, and Diane and Edddie" implying that one award was given to Diane and Eddie as a team.

Source, AP Style Book (the unlitmate souce of all things writing)

[mzteris]

18. It's still supposed to be there!

See this:

"The only authorities who advocate omitting the final comma are newspaper style guides (which wish to save column space) and some English writers (who waffle on the rule). . . Complicating matters, most people remember a misleadingly simplified version of the wrong rule: "You don't need a comma before and." This assumption leads people to make yet another punctuation error — to omit the necessary comma in a compound sentence, as these examples illustrate."

http://www.protrainco.com/essays/serial-comma.htm

[slide to the left]

24. Eats, shoots, and leaves

Read it.

[mzteris]

26. that's a great book.

I've read excerpts and keep meaning to pick it up for my middle-school aged son.

I ALWAYS put the comma in a list of items. (Mrs. Ellisor, my 7th grade teacher (who's probably deceased now) would come back from the dead and stab me with her red pen if I didn't.)

[nutsnberries]

51. i was going to add that. i love the bookcover >>>

[swag]

56. I always use the Oxford comma.

And I find people who object to it to be, unwittingly, at a comical intersection of prescriptive and descriptive grammar.

[riona]

19. I LOVE commas!

I really love, love, love, and love commas!!
I love, love, love, love, and love commas, really!!

[mzteris]

33. my hubby loves semi-colons;

he; uses them; all the time; especially; in place of ,'s or; when he has a list; like you know; where a : SHOULD be.

:rofl:

[NV Whino]

21. According to my grammar upbringing

I comma before the "and" of the last listing was never required. I'm always surprised when I see one.

[mzteris]

28. how old are you?

The comma was ALWAYS required in a list of more than two items when I was taught. (Back in the late 60's early 70's.)

Think of lists of paired items:

They go together like salt and pepper, shoes and socks, and peanut butter and jelly.

[NV Whino]

37. Lots older than that.

[NV Whino]

22. A further note on commas

The Post Office now asks that you eliminate the comma between city and state when addressing envelopes. Almost all mail is sorted by machines these days, and the comma is just an unnecessary digit for the machine to read.

On another note: in the computer age, we have lost the double space after periods and colons.

Time marches on, as does language and grammar.

[slide to the left]

39. YAY

There is no doublle space between sentences anymore. Computer auto formating leaves some extra room for you, unlike a type-writer.

[nutsnberries]

46. the city, state comma - i'll try to give it up but

no double spaces after periods? and probably after question marks too. i don't know. it doesn't seem right.

(look who's talking on this one. i rarely capitalize anymore and my punctuation is whatever i feel like embellishing with! still, my right thumb automatically double spaces at the end of my sentences. we'll see.)

[miss_american_pie]

23. I was taught it's a newspaper thing

designed to save space in columns.

But I was taught by MLA devotees, so who knows? :shrug:

[mzteris]

30. Authorities: require vs. doesn't

REQUIRE SERIAL COMMA:

Chicago Manual of Style
Strunk and White's Elements of Style
Oxford University Press
Fowler's Modern English Usage
The United States Government Printing Office's Style Manual:
(I think Turabian's does, too.)

OPPOSE use of Serial Comma:

The Times style manual
The Economist style manual
The AP Stylebook
The Guardian Style Guide

[miss_american_pie]

34. Aha

If Strunk and White say so, it must be. Thanks for the list.

[Orrex]

41. Thank you!

I haven't seen my copy of Strunk & White in years, but I was sure that I consulted that weighty tome on this very subject.

[kay1864]

45. Dayum mzteris!

That required a bit o' work! How the heck did you research all those manuals? Are they all on the Internets?

[mzteris]

49. uh - I cheated.

Actually - I was searching for refs to Turabians and Strunk, etc. - and saw this list in Wiki. :blush: Well, it was all there in one place - I meant to link it back - because on there it has the page# and specific reference - but I was distracted. So much to do, so little time.

[kay1864]

55. Hey, nothing wrong with Wiki...

Why re-invent the wheel when someone else has already done the work? I use it all the time myself!

[kay1864]

61. A bit on Turabian's...

KATE L. TURABIAN (1893-1987)
Kate L. Turabian was the graduate school dissertation secretary at the University of Chicago from 1930 to 1958. What that means is that no master's thesis or doctoral dissertation received final approval until she said it was in proper style.

Not much else on her on Wiki. I picture her as the bane of graduate students, with a withering gaze.

Me, I couldn't have made it through graduate school without her book.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. This is the only time a comma really matters to me

Shoot, NSMA!
Shoot NSMA!

[cleofus1]

29. i was told that it would save

approximently 100, 000 tons of paper per year worldwide...it is a conservation measure

[amitten]

38. Many teachers are comma-phobic. I noticed that while I was in

school.

In my opinion, commas are usually underused, as in your example. I was taught to eliminate the comma before "and". I never agreed with that and use one anyway.

It's too bad about this, because run-on sentences are now rampant everywhere. Many times I find published items almost unreadable.

[slide to the left]

40. Many teachers don't know grammar

Because is isn't taught anymore. There are 14 places that you use a comma. Too many people think it it used where there should be a "pause," and this is not so. I am a grammar nut-case. You don't even use them all the time in serial lists. It simply depends on the context. Also, a semi-colon should be used where a lot of people put a comma.

[amitten]

43. True. But if a sentence is over-long and poorly constructed to

begin with, the writer should use commas break the sentence up. Maybe not in the spirit of perfect grammar, but in the spirit of making things more readable. In the end, the important thing is to convey your message successfully.

[slide to the left]

57. nope

The should use semi-colons. If there are 2 independant clauses they can use a conjuction and a comma or no conjunction and a semi-colon. You cannot put 2 independant clauses together with a comma and no conjuntion. It's just wrong. You can use them for non-essential clauses and phrases, the ones that are offset, in sentences. Even an em-dash can be used sometimes, but they are way over used now. If you want to get technical, they should be used with inroductory clauses and phrases. However, they do not have to be used with short ones, such as, "During the night he heard many noises." As I am sure you have figured out, they must also be used for inroducing quotes.

This is a short introduction to the proper use of the comma. Punctuation can make or break a sentence; what use is the perfect word is you do not give it the correct meaning?

~Slide to the left- the content editor for a massive company

[amitten]

64. Semi-colons, em-dashes, fine! Just use SOMETHING--that's

my point.

I'd rather read a sentence with incorrectly used commas than a run-on.

-amitten--daughter of the content editor for another massive company, though not a content editor herself :)

[DrGonzoLives]

58. No, the writer should rewrite it

if it is written that poorly. Commas don't fix a rambling, run-on sentence.

[amitten]

65. That's true. But commas are better than nothing, in many cases.

I am just sick of so often reading sentences with all due respect to many published and probably respected writers that read something like this because it makes my head spin and I lose track of the train of thought.

And, I must say, I very, very, very, rarely, indeed almost never, read, sentences that are, written like this.

So I'm pro-comma. I think they're underused in most cases.

[madinmaryland]

42. I thought it was Diane and Jack.

Little ditty about Jack and Diane
2 American kids growin up in the heartland
Jacky's gonna be a football star
Diane debutante backseat of Jacky's car

Suckin' on chili dogs outside the tastee freeze
Diane's sittin' on Jacky's lap
He's got his hand between her knees
Jacky say "Hey Diane lets run off
Behind a shady tree"
Dribble off those Bobby Brooks
Let me do what I please.
And Jacky Say

Oh yeah life goes on
Long after the thrill of livin is gone
Oh yeay say life goes on
Long after the thrill of livin is gone, they walk on

Jacky sits back reflects his thoughts for the moment
Scratches his head and does his best james dean.
Well you know Diane, we oughtta run of the city
Diane says "Baby, you aint missin' no-thing"
Jacky say a

Chorus

Gonna let it rock
Let it roll
Let the Bible Belt come down
And Save My soul
Hold on to 16 as long as you can
Changes come around real soon
Make us women and men

Little ditty about Jack and Diane
Two american kids doing the best they can

[Orrex]

62. Diane is cheating on Jack because Jack is cheating on Jill

They're all a bunch of immoral hooligans, if you ask me.

[madinmaryland]

67. Are you series??2?? That's HUGH!!1!!

[kay1864]

44. And then there's those damn...

EXTRA commas that make no sense. This used to happen often in my college newspaper (where admitted there was no journalism degree), and still happens in our "award-winning" big-city newspaper, when a title is used:

University President, Joe Shmoe, said today...

No you dumb fux, it's

University President Joe Shmoe said today...

or maybe

The University President, Joe Shmoe, said today...

But "University President" doesn't stand by itself.

Fortunately, nowadays a quick email to the reporter easily corrects the problem.

[CBHagman]

47. I prefer to use the final comma, too.

I work at a newswire and our department style is to omit the final comma (though, frankly, we're not maniacal about it). But I find that comma at times provides necessary clarity. For example, The Washington Post once printed something like "Guests dined on filet mignon, salad with raspberry vinaigrette and chocolate mousse." That makes it sound like dessert and salad were tossed into the same container.

Perhaps it's urban legend, but I've also heard of a writer who dedicated a work to "My parents, Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa." :rofl:

[mzteris]

50. I love that example!

**My parents, Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa." **

I'm going to have to remember that one!

[nutsnberries]

48. I usually put in the comma but

I was taught that it's optional ~i think.

(and i'm 44 if that helps you pinpoint when the comma disappeared.)

[texas1928]

68. So, you use Commas. I like exclamation points. Like this...

TAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


YOU'RE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[riona]

52. Orrex - can you cut us some slack in the lounge

if we promise to add lots of commas in gd?,,,,,,,,,

[swag]

59. Wikipedia has a good entry on the serial comma:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_comma

with references from style guides both supporting and opposing use, and examples involving the serial comma's effect on ambiguity.

[supernova]

63. We still use the complete serial comma in technical docs

:hi:

Be sure to attach the server, the back up server, and other components to the the back-end system.

[hyphenate]

66. Both are correct

in different style manuals. It's a personal preference for many to skip the last comma and use the "and" as the only conjunctive. I prefer to include it if I remember and proof something, but it's one of those things which have changed over time simply because no one remembers the grammar rule.