Ancient text offers revelations about Judas

[Sequoia]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- National Geographic unveiled an ancient manuscript Thursday that may shed new light on the relationship between Jesus and Judas, the disciple who betrayed him.

The papyrus manuscript was written probably around 300 A.D. in Coptic script, a copy of an earlier Greek manuscript.

It was discovered in the desert in Egypt in the 1970s and has now been authenticated by carbon dating and studied and translated by biblical scholars, National Geographic announced.

Unlike the four gospels in the Bible, this text indicates that Judas betrayed Jesus at Jesus' request.

<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/04/06/gospel.judas.ap/index.html

[malta blue]

1. I think it is a great find.

I wonder what the ramifications of the "Judas betrayed Jesus as Jesus' request" will be?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

2. I think it's fantastic that a large portion of our society

Is built around the idea of preserving, protecting and abiding by the tenets laid out in a wholly incomplete text.
:sarcasm:

I just don't see how anyone can put so much faith in a book of which large portions are still being found. If you believe in Jesus, who's to say you're getting an accurate depiction of his precepts and life? (Not to mention all the other gospels that were excised from the text we now call "The Bible".)

[Squatch]

3. The text may be incomplete, but the basic tenet is not.

"Love your neighbor as you would love yourself"

[northzax]

4. and let's be honest here

The really important thing about Jesus, from a faith perspective, at least, is his sacrifice on the Cross, right? the whole John 3:16 thing? without that, he's a prophet, not the saviour. So someone had to sell him down the river to get executed and then rise from the dead, which means the person who did it was doing the Lord's work. Yes, Judas (the Jew) betrayed Jesus and helped kill him. But without that, the whole story is meaningless, and, instead of eating Fish on Fridays, a billion people are keeping Kosher. The whole plan was to have Jesus sacrifice himself, the person who made it happen should be exalted, not reviled.

but, of course, those who take it literally, can't be bothered to learn such nuance, ergo the fact that Judas betrayed Jesus is a sin, not a painful decision that he was obviously fated to make, if not ordered to. Jesus sacrificed his life for his faith, Judas sacrificed his reputation for millenia, and his friend and mentor.

by the way, the Times has excerpts from the translated text in .pdf format: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/judastxt.pdf

[Sequoia]

6. I recall a verse during the Last Supper

when Jesus spoke to Judas and something to the effect that he'd better go now and do what he had to do. We were taught that Jesus knew Judas was going to do it before it happened. Thanks for that link.

[northzax]

9. yes, Jesus knew that Judas would sell him to the Romans

but the question is, did he tell him to do it? then it's not a betrayal, it's following the last order.

[Sequoia]

13. Peter denied him.

But he has a huge church in Rome.

[northzax]

16. well, we all know what Jesus

thought about people with large religious buildings.

[Sequoia]

26. Like this "religion"

[XemaSab]

20. The Book of John

Is the book that should have been binned at the Council of Nicea.

[Chemical Bill]

36. Don't forget "Love your enemies". n/t

[leftofthedial]

5. No! Burn in hell, blasphemer!

If the text was not abridged and edited to fit the political needs of the Roman emperor when the Bible was manufactured, then it is NOT the true word of gawdjeezis almighty!

[swimboy]

14. Just like if we ever find additional writings about Thomas Jefferson

we'll know that he never existed either. :eyes:

[Tyrone Slothrop]

25. Way to put words in my mouth

I said that we don't really have an accurate depiction of him. Where did I ever say that Jesus never existed? Or that this new gospel indicated that Jesus never existed??? Hmmmm???

If documents were found that painted Jefferson in a significantly different light, I'm sure that textbooks (well, maybe not textbooks immediately -- but certainly academic works) and the like would update and alter their description of his history to try to give us the most accurate depiction of Jefferson that one could reconstruct given the historical evidence. That way, we could, you know, have a more clear understanding of what Jefferson meant and what he was trying to say.

Of course, no one's ever been told that I'm going to Hell for not adhering to everything that Jefferson had to say or that I'm an awful person who doesn't deserve to be alive because I don't believe that Jefferson was a divine being. Probably because no one would ever try to compare Jefferson to Jesus -- that would just be a silly strawman argument.

[swimboy]

30. I'm just winding you up a little, my friend.

I exploited the brevity of your statement and I fully appreciate how you've expanded on it. I agree with you that most established religions are adamant about refusing to consider new information or even alternative readings of the text they accept as canon. Hell, sometimes you can't tell they've even read the text they proclaim to believe and live.

BTW, I picked Jefferson out of the hat to make my strawman argument, but after reading your last paragraph, I can tell you haven't spent any time in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Cheers! :toast:

[Tyrone Slothrop]

31. Actually, I have spent some time in C-Ville

My ex-gf went to school down there.

And I completely forgot that he is a bit of a messianic figure in that town. I think I counted no fewer than five larger than life statues of him while I was there -- and it was rumored that there were more!

Anyway, hope my response didn't come across as too hostile. I realized as soon as I posted my first comment that someone might take offense (even though none was meant -- though I'm an atheist, I really don't care what religion folks choose to practice, and I do believe that J.C. was a real, living person at some point), and I sort of braced myself for hostility.

:cheers:

[matcom]

7. MIHOP!!!

:bounce:

[northzax]

8. damn, the original MIHOP

I guess Bush is like Jesus after all!

nice catch!

[matcom]

11. EXACTLY like Jesus!

now, on to the next step! :D

[northzax]

15. you really want to take the chance

that he will rise from the dead and live forever?

think a wooden stake would help? just in case?

[johnnie]

12. .

:spray:

[RevCheesehead]

18. Actually, it's more like the Swift-Boating of Jesus.

It's a Gnostic text. Gnostics had their own agenda. That's why certain texts (like the Gospel of Thomas, etc...) were excluded from the canon. It would be like saying, "Hey! Here's something about Clinton from someone named Rush Limbaugh!"

That's why we clergy get suspicious. Sure, it's interesting, and not necessarily a bad thing, but these texts were not preserved for a reason.

I just wish they would have misplaced Revelation.

[Radical Activist]

19. Or the swift boating of Judas, perhaps?

And it seems just as likely that the texts weren't persevered for the reason that they contradicted the agenda of Constantine, his allies, and the religious establishment of the time that came to be dominant through political maneuvers rather than divine mandate. They had their own agenda just as much as the Gnostics did.

[RevCheesehead]

21. This particular text was denounced by Irenaus....

LONG before Constantine was in the picture. In his time, the persecution of Christians was still going on, and the early church was still trying to find itself and define itself. That's why the teaching of the Apostles was so important (Apostolic Succession) - because anyone could write a text and call it Gospel.

I'm not dissing the notion that this (Judas being asked to betray Jesus) is what's happened. In fact, the synoptic gospels may indeed be interpreted that way... John, not so much.

The problem is, we don't know what else is contained in the text, either. Any group which has claimed to have had "secret knowledge" is automatically suspect. Just like anything claiming to be from the "Swiftboat Veterans for the truth" is a perspective which one would consider to be suspicious.

[Radical Activist]

23. Don't the gospels themselves

give credibility to the belief that there is a great deal of information, secret and otherwise, that is recorded or passed down which is not included in the gospels. How many passages mention Jesus speaking to the Apostles only, not the entire crowd? How many references are there to Jesus teaching the apostles without recording everything that Jesus said? Teaching some things to a select few appears to have been a common part of Jesus' ministry.

[RevCheesehead]

24. That's true...

But more often than not, that repetition usually had to do with things which were revealed to them after the crucifixion/resurrection. Mark's gospel is filled with a "secrecy motif," where even the disciples didn't get it.

Then again, maybe it was simple repetition. Mark's gospel says that Jesus spoke to his disciples at least 3 times about the impending death and resurrection. And there are at least 2 different "feedings" in the gospels - and was the crowd 3,000? 5,000? Did they count the women and children? How many loaves were used? How many fish? And what was the exact amount of leftovers? The gospels aren't exercises in journalism. They're theological documents intended to tell a story.

Believe me, I think the Gnostic texts have merit. It's just that some of their theology can get a little strange at times...

[northzax]

22. right, certainly the Fab Four had their agendas

or at least the people following them did, and the works were presented in a political light. The Gnostics simply weren't as good at prosletizing as the hang 'em high fundies, I mean who wants to hear about hard work to make yourself closer to God, when you can just build a nice church?

[Sequoia]

28. But don't you like the part about

the seven or was it 12-headed dragon and the little baby? Those horsemen are pretty cool. But I see your point. Are you really a preacher? My mate played a trick on me once and sent my name in to a mailing list and I got all these mailings addressed to me as a Reverened. I'd actually get some pretty cool stuff which led to a letter from a Roman Catholic charity at the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. I'd get photos of little cute Lokata children so every now and then I'd send them some money and they'd send me a calendar.

[yellowdogintexas]

35. misplacing Revelation would have been a favor to mankind

how much balderdash, poppycock, gutter rubbish and claptrap has been foisted upon us because of that stupid coded text? Weird cults, apocalyptic sects and a seriously bad series of novels. The Rapture, the End Times, etc etc etc.

(balderdash, poppycock, gutter rubbish and claptrap were the favorite expletives of my late beloved Old Testament professor who used them frequently and with enthusiasm when defending his positions against leteral interpretation of the OT)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

10. As someone raised Catholic, I have...

LONG thought that! To me, the story always seemed as if Judas' turning in of Christ was a prearranged plan between the two. I have never thought anything else.

I'll be very interested in seeing the special.

[noonwitch]

17. The gospel accounts.

Each is different in little ways. I always thought that Jesus put Judas up to "betraying" him, once I was old enough to really give the matter some thought.

The other disciples were jealous that Jesus trusted Judas enough to know he would go through with it. He didn't think any of the others would. Judas killed himself before the resurrection, so he may have died thinking he truly did betray Jesus, after all.

Afterwards, the other disciples decided to make Judas a heavy out of jealousy. Or at least, that's the Nikos Kazantantias version of the story.

[long_green]

27. Wow! Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice were right!

nm

[Sequoia]

32. Do tell!

Christ!
I know you can't hear me
But I only did what you wanted me to
Christ!
I'd sell out the nation
For I have been saddled
With the murder of you
I have been spattered
With innocent blood
I should be dragged
Through the slime and the mud
I have been spattered
With innocent blood
I should be dragged
Through the slime and the mud

[leftyladyfrommo]

29. There are a whole bunch of gospels

But this almost sounds like the Gospel of Judas Thomas that they found. But that would be the wrong Judas. The Gospel of Judas Thomas had been found in Greek but then a whole translation of the book was found in the Nag Hammadi Library which is Gnostic.

Doesn't mean that there wasn't a Gosepl of Judas Iscariot. Seems like just about everyone wrote a Gospel back then. There is the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, the Gospel of Truth - and a bunch more. And they are really interesting to read.

[derby378]

33. Those old lyrics of Bob Dylan come to mind...

For many an hour, I've been thinking 'bout this
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you; you'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side

[jukes]

34. LOKT!

this discussion has been moved to the superstition forum

jukes, self-deputized moderator