Christians- I have a question for you.

[Marr]

Today, as I was driving, I heard someone on the radio say that "Jesus had to die for our sins". Now- I was raised in a Christian household (though I am not religious) and I've heard this little nugget a billion times, but it never occurred to me until today that I don't understand what it means. It seems to make no sense.

Why did he have to die so horribly?

Did God demand a blood sacrifice? That seems a tad out of character.

And why did Jesus' murder at the hands of humanity inspire God to *forgive* our sins? If anything, it seems to me that it should've been our final condemnation.

So what's the deal?

[Kerrytravelers]

1. You know, I've always had the exact same question.

And no one has ever been able to supply me with an answer beyond the meaningless "because God commanded it." :shrug: I have no idea what kind of answer that is. It makes no sense, just one of those fundy shut-up and don't think for yourself kind of answers.

[deadparrot]

2. I think it goes back to Passover.

The Jews killed lambs and put the blood over their doorframes to protect their sons from being killed via the final plague. Jesus, as the "lamb of God," parallels the Passover sacrifice. He spilled his blood so that we (humanity) might be saved.

I think. I'm not religious, either. :shrug:

[XemaSab]

3. Well

Back in the day the Jews used to sacrifice animals in the Temple for the forgiveness of sins. A dove would be the sacrifice for a small sin, and an ox the sacrifice for a big sin.

The death of Jesus was the sacrafice for the sins of the world. He died so that we could be forgiven for all our sins.

[dorktv]

9. Death of the most important human ever would count for a lot would it not.

[Arugula Latte]

4. Logic is to Religion as Oil is to Water

They DON'T go together like a horse and carriage.

:popcorn:

[rug]

5. He didn't have to.

And the method is hard to ignore.

[hedgehog]

6. Nobody understands exactly why he had to or how it works.

That's why it's called a Mystery.



If it helps any, why did Martin Luther King,Jr.keep going when he knew people were going to kill him? What about Oscar Romero? What about any of the "Disappeared Ones" in South America? Why do people go into killing zones in Africa to feed children?

Maybe it was a way to show that no matter how dead the bastards make you, they don't have the last word, so keep fighting the good fight.

[Marr]

8. That I understand. Dying in pursuit of an ideal or a cause, I mean.

But that's not the dogmatic explanation. If people commonly said, "Jesus martyred himself to invigorate the movement and give it a hero", I'd understand. But that's not what they say. They say he "died for our sins", which makes no sense to me, the more I think about it.

[amitten]

10. I think (THINK) that the manner of death was to be symbolic.

Like, "This is what I am willing to give, no matter how horrible, out of love for you."

To me it always implied that if Christ was willing to die so horribly to help others, we should all be willing to sacrifice to help one another as well. It was the ultimate act of selflessness.

[hedgehog]

18. Remember that for Christians, dying is only half the story.

The other half is the resurrection, or, you can't keep a good man down. A lot of people will tell you that this is symbolic, but the testimony is that Jesus sat down with his buds and ate fish around the camp fire with them. Sounds pretty solid for a symbol as far as I'm concerned.

Paul says elsewhere that if Jesus did rise from the dead, we'd all be pretty stupid to be following him.

Jesus did not want to be a martyr. Sane people don't want to be martyrs. Sane people become martyrs when they can do no else.

The bit about died for our sins is perhaps a reminder that we all have played our part in creating a world where bad things are done to people. Jesus' death and resurrection are the first steps to ending all those wrongs by showing that the good guys will win in the end.

[wildhorses]

7. it takes two...as in

you forgive me
as I forgive you
remember the body
is only the shell
wrapped around
our soul


Please, I do not know how to say it
there is a place way ABOVE religion
and this is where GOD lives... (call him/her the name of your choice)

[Floogeldy]

11. Jesus didn't HAVE TO do shit.

Well, unless his dad told him to.

What's this "had to die" crap?

[pitohui]

12. they used to sacrifice animals to the gods

in olden times the gods were appeased by sacrificing food animals, esp. bulls, the sky god, jehovah is the same dude as zeus or jupiter, so yes the sacrifice to him would be a white bull

or as in the story of abraham he might even get snitty and demand a first born child

jesus called the bluff of god and basically said, look dude, you want a first born child, here i am, and here's the kicker -- i'm YOUR first born child

it's great cinema, you gotta admit

but it does go back to blood sacrifice and the jesus or mithras type figure wanting to give himself for once and for all to put a stop to sacrificing 1) other human lives and 2) other human lives indirectly by sacrificing their financial future by giving up the bulls to the greedy priests who were feasting on beef while everybody else was dying of diabetes and celiac disease from eating grain which we're mostly not evolved to eat!

[wildhorses]

13. that's what I like about Jesus

the dude was a amart ass




I like that in a person...

[Hissyspit]

14. The concept of martyrdom appealed to the older generation

in the fight against Roman domination; the concept of resurrection appealed to the younger generation who would risk their lives in the fight.

[xchrom]

15. sin in the case of christ is metaphor for the

separation from god that happed at the time of adam's fall.

christ endures the ultimate in human suffering and carries that into the godhead.

also -- christ was{as we understand the story} says yes to the suffering{he is not commanded} -- and it is the suffering that makes the final transformation from human to god.

i.e. the suffering brings the human experience to god -- informs god as it were.
and closes the gap between us and the creator.

[ET Awful]

16. Even better question . . . . If God, as is asserted, is omnipotent,

why does he need an intermediary to gain his forgiveness? If God is all-powerful, is not forgiveness at his discretion? So why does there need to be a sacrifice to earn said forgiveness? And, if said forgiveness must be earned, would it not be better earned by someone not of divine origins? I mean, if the one committing the act by which mankind is to be forgiven is divine in origin, how does that equate to forgiving man?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[noonwitch]

17. Paul needed a lot of forgiveness for his sins

Most of that teaching comes from Paul's epistles. Prior to his conversion, Paul persecuted christians-he was a Pharisee of sorts, a jew with roman citizenship. He had to feel very guilty after his conversion experience, and that guilt had to be a prime motivator in both his preaching and his actions.

I grew up as a liberal christian (UCC, UMC, PBUSA, etc,.) and I attend a new-age, liberal christian church now (Unity). I never heard the "Jesus died for your sins" teaching until later, in the community, when I attended AWANA with baptist friends or other similar groups. It is one of those things (other than politics) that differentiates evangelicals and fundamentalists from the more liberal protestants.

In addition to Paul's own complex psychological issues, there is the ancient history of the jewish faith, and the use of blood sacrifices prior to the destruction of the temple. If you read Leviticus, you can read all about sin offerings, guilt offerings, etc. In Genesis, god prefers Abel's sacrifice of dead animals to Cain's of produce. As christianity sprung from judaism, and Paul was a very devout jew before becoming a christian, it is important to consider this as part of the mindset of the early converts to the new religion.

My personal interpretation is not based on literal readings of scripture. Jesus died in order to be resurrected. He died to show us that death is not the end of life. He died to show us that fear of death should no longer prevent us from doing what is good and right in the world, but that doing the right thing sometimes will cost us our physical lives (read "The Cost of Discipleship" by Deitrich Bonhoeffer).

I don't think God actually required his sacrifice be as particularly bloody as his crucifixion was, it was just the execution method used by the people in power at that particular time.

[yellowdogintexas]

19. Wonderful article from Sojourners that came in my email today.

addresses just this issue. Sorry for the length.


Bothered by the cross
by Deanna Murshed

As someone who has been a Christian for a while now, I must confess that the idea of redemption through the cross has lost its power to bother or puzzle me as it did in the past.

I remember being jealous of folks who could confess a grand conversion experience that pulled them from lives of sheer drunken hedonistic debauchery - dramatic stories in which they were saved just in the nick of time - into resurrection just by the skin of their teeth. And although getting in by the skin of our teeth is surely true for all of us, it is at least more obvious in those great stories, for whatever reason.

But that is not my story.

Even my earliest memories include my mother sharing Bible stories with me. Though I struggled with the meaning or reality of these accounts to be sure - I can't recall a time when I didn't perceive myself within this grand story of redemption.

My mother showed me a simple faith. My father, on the other hand, questioned just about everything. And I somehow inherited both. God help those who hear me think out loud.

I also remember that as a child, the idea that Christ died on the cross and rose again for me - though it was repeated over and over again and I so desperately wanted to believe it made sense - seemed odd. But I think it was repeated often enough, that eventually, I just came to accept it. After all, the answer to almost any question in Sunday school was easy: "because Jesus died on the cross!"

So, somewhere along the road, I took it for granted that Christ lived, died, and rose again. Somewhere, maybe after I had responded to the sixth altar call - just to make sure God had duly noted my belief - I had heard it enough times to think I had this mystery of mysteries settled.

But every now and then, I come back to that place. Really, what in the world does this mean? Christ died on the cross. It is so easy to hear now that the absolute foolishness of it - and I mean that in the best possible way - simply ceases to amaze me.

But liturgical cycles are good for that - making you not forget any part of the story and asking you to revisit each station, as it were. One passage has been coming to mind (from John's gospel):



"Jesus replied, 'The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly, I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life'" (12:23-25).

The version of the Bible called The Message states the last verse this way: "In the same way, anyone who holds on to life just as it is destroys that life. But if you let it go, reckless in your love, you'll have it forever, real and eternal."

The part that really struck me recently (though I've surely heard it read a hundred times) is that the dying of the grain is not for the resurrection of the seed itself - you do not die simply to be resurrected into a better you. You don't give up that bad habit or attitude, greed or grudge, simply to come out on top. (Though I suppose that's not a bad place to begin). No, the grain dies so that it can produce and reproduce life. The passage says, unless a seed falls to the ground and dies it is no more than a single grain.

The answer as to why the grain needs to die is for it not to remain alone. In other words, Christ died so that he could bear more Christs and grow his reign!

Though this way of living for others seems like such a radical (re)orientation, all of creation seems to be screaming this message. Every part of the wheat is living for the spread of life, wants there to be more wheat. The most basic cycle of nature reflects the divine order.

It is simply astounding, when I think about it, that the God of creation does not live for direct self-satisfaction! The God of creation who has all power and all might is in constant submission to another purpose. And God is inviting us to follow.

When one reads the surrounding texts in John where Christ is trying to explain to his disciples who he is and why he must leave them, he is rather indirect. He never says, I do such and such because that is my plan. Rather, he points to the Father and then says that the Father points to the Son and has given Him authority. And then the Spirit testifies of the Son and so on and on. And then the Father lifts up the Son. It is almost comedic how each part of the trinity points the finger at the other - not in blame, as in the human tendency - but because of a perfect harmony, submission, and a trade of trust and authority between each member. This is a wholly different order - a glimpse of what divine community looks like.

I don't know about you, but completely surrendering my will for another goes against every grain of my self-preserving being. And it looks nothing whatsoever like our capitalist culture which encourages us to think the opposite - both economically and morally. The world says that if each individual seeks out his or her own personal fulfillment, we will all ultimately benefit. But the gospel compels us to seek the benefit of others with no guarantee of anything in return.

This is a terrifying invitation that should bother us.

But do our motives have to be absolutely perfect in the sight of God before we can follow? And can we ever reach the point of being perfectly other-oriented? (If so, I'm in trouble).

But I'm comforted that in scripture, I find myself in good company. Christ's disciples followed him for many reasons - not all of which were noble. Ironically, sometimes they were selfish in their pursuit of selflessness. Sometimes they sought to gain something (to meet earthly or eternal needs), other times because they knew there was no other way. Later, they figured a few things out - saw Christ more fully - and their motives changed to those of gratitude, and ultimately, they imitated Christ's example to obey simply because God is worthy.

So, I've come to believe that we hold on to this mysterious truth for different reasons at different times in our lives, though we may never come to fully understand how it is that Christ's death saves us.

That we should follow Jesus in his death so that we might really live is the message of this Easter season.

May God have mercy on us as we follow this call.

Deanna Murshed, integrated marketing manager at Soj