can u settle this *how we see color* question?

[nutsnberries]

dispute going on here about colors...

do we all see various colors the same?

is my green your green? and my blue your blue?
(unless you're color blind)

can anyone refer me to a good place to read about this?

i figured someone here at DU would have some answers


thanks

[AirmensMom]

1. I don't have any answers.

But last week, the dermatologist told me I have blue eyes. I've had green eyes all my life. :shrug:

[nutsnberries]

3. hmmm....

i'll join ya! > :shrug:

[EstimatedProphet]

2. There is no way to specifically determine that right now

What you see as green may not be the same thing for me. Or it may be. the only way to determine is to get inside someone else's experiences, and we can't do that.

We do know this: cameras and/or film often records colors as slightly different shades and light variations. Since the eye in some ways is similar to a camera, it is possible that they would behave the same way.

[nutsnberries]

4. thanks... i'll throw that out there for all to ponder and

EstimatedProphet shall join our discussion. ;)

[Lolivia]

5. In general, the answer is "yes, you see the same green as everyone else"

Two parts to your question: The first part is that an object with "color" absorbs and reflects radiation in the visible spectrum in a consistent manner, so the wavelength will be constant no matter who is looking at it. The second part is the "sensors" in your eyes-you have three types of receptors (called cones) that perceive the various colors and essentially send those signals to the brain, which then integrates the intensity of the signal from each and turns it into "color."

So, generally speaking, everyone has the same receptors and everyone's brain interprets the signals in a very similar manner with the exception of people that have color blindness and other possible outlying medical/brain conditions.

That is the simple answer..

[EstimatedProphet]

6. True, in theory

We all use the same wavelengths, and we all have the same types of sensors. But can we be sure that the result is the same, or are there slight variations?

[Lolivia]

7. Good question-imo, I would say the variations are probably

trumped by sensitivity (or lack thereof) of the detection equipment or other factors. Our eyes are not particularly sensitive detectors, at least relative to invented detection equipment. I would guess that if you could stick a wire into a lot of peoples' brains and look at what color they were perceiving, you would end up with a gaussian output of the "color." I guess the issue then is what is the deviation from the mean, and is it significant..and for that matter, what is significant.

Also, is the OP referring to "perception of color" in the objective sense of the signal the brain receives and integrates, or in the subjective "perception" where life experiences, mood, mental health, etc. infuse feeling into a color? Do these factors influence perception of color more so than the small differences in signal integration?

We need some DU's to volunteer their brains..

[EstimatedProphet]

10. since this is likely to be a damaging study, we should use freepers

Oh wait...

[Lolivia]

11. Haha

Although, for the study to be relevant, we would really need to study HUMAN brains...

[nutsnberries]

8. thank you, that's what i thought-more or less [patting myself on back] and

see here:

http://www.sinauer.com/detail.php?id=9385

look down to Table of Contents #5 The Perception of Color
at bullet 4 you'll see answers: yes, no and maybe!

thanks for your simple answer :hi:

[Lolivia]

9. Interesting link

And I see that the authors differentiate between "sensation" and "perception," which is what I was getting at my last post.

[wovenpaint]

12. Colorist background

and as an artist, I can say that we only physically see 30% of the color spectrum-which consists of energy wavelengths that can be measured.
We used a spectrophometer to measure these wavelengths and get a mathematical number that gauges a color match. As accurate as that was, in some cases, our eyes were better.
People do see color differently, with some more sensitive to it than others. There's a test called the "Munsell 100 Hue" test that I had to take that measures our "color vision".
I was analysing color matches on a daily basis, so I know that "my" world is extremely colorful due to my sensitivity. I believe it's a skill that can be developed (unless you're color blind).
The study of color and it's effect on us is a fascinating subject. Did you know that restaurants are usually decorated in red because that color stimulates our appetite?

[nutsnberries]

14. sensitivity is a good way to describe the *spectrum* of color vision.

I can't mix colors but I feel that I see more differences than some others do.

thanks for your input :hi:

[XemaSab]

18. We use Munsell chips to determine soil color

There's a book of all the soil colors, and different people can usually get the colors to match within a fairly narrow range.

Good times. :D

[nutsnberries]

22. i've taken a soil class or twooooooo....

never used the Munsell chips though. geez, I was ripped off, man! Soil with no chips. :(

[XemaSab]

23. That's horrible!

:(

[Dangerously Amused]

13. Well...

My father was an artist and worked in the printing business. He would oversee the printers and check their work to make sure the colors in the finished product were EXACTLY right. He would sometimes get in arguments with the printers when he told them to do a job over because the colors were ever so slightly off to most people, but something the client could use as a basis to reject the final product. Finally, he and all the printers took a difficult color test, designed for professionals in the printing industry, to assess how refined one's ability was to distinguish colors. He scored 100%, which is very rare. None of the printers scored 100%, so they couldn't argue with him any more.

My color vision is better than most, but still not as good as his. I know because we would look at the same color on something, and we would discuss how to (hypothetically) mix it, which is to say, which colors would be needed and in what amount. Usually we would agree, but often enough he would see a subtlety there that I just could not see. I mean I KNEW what color he was talking about, but I just could not see it in the mix. So I believe his ability to "see" and discern color was better than mine.

My poor Mom, on the other hand, cannot tell the difference between black and dark navy to save her soul.

So yes, even though the rods and cones in our eyes perform the same function, and even though that part of the brain which acts to interpret colors processes color information in the same manner, I believe they do not always function to the same degree. Another example: People on certain drugs say that one of the effects of the drug is to make colors appear more intense. The color isn't actually more intense, but something in the eye or more probably the brain receives the color information differently. Therefore, if a range of color perception is possible in one person, it stands to reason that a range of color perception as a naturally occurring but static characteristic is likely if not probable in different persons.


Just my two cents.

[nutsnberries]

15. "do not always function to the same degree" - agree!

I see differences in colors better than most and not as good as others (i've got some artists in the family that are undeniably finely tuned to color), like you in relation to both of your parents.

Once I bought 10 cloth napkins that I thought were the same but later I noticed that a couple were slightly different and when I went to return them (bringing all of the napkins with me), the girl working in the store let me return the two odd ones, but I could tell she thought *I* was the odd one... I realize slightly different napkins is not a big deal, but I wanted them the same, if it was possible and it was- at least to my eyes! Maybe someone with better color vision would see even more difference than I could.

Even though I think I see subtle color differences pretty well, I can't mix color very well (i wish i could). I think that is a separate talent that doesn't always go along.

thanks for those 2 cents! :hi:

[Dangerously Amused]

17. Well, the ability to distinguish between dye lots at a store

...is pretty darn good. I can do that too, but most people can't.


Hooray for our elitist rods and cones! :7


:hi:

[XemaSab]

19. But the color IS more intense...

Intensity is subjective, and when you're high every color looks SO SATURATED...

It's a biochemical change in the brain that makes the colors more intense to you... it's still the same color, but you're looking at it in a different way.

[Dangerously Amused]

21. Right. I think we're taking the same position here.

[ElboRuum]

16. No Way of Knowing

Since I cannot perceive what you perceive, what I call blue may be, if I could perceive your perceptions, not blue at all to me. In fact, my blue is always your blue, but if I could see your blue, it might be my red.

The appellations "blue" and "green" are arbitrary and known to us through the early learning act of nomenclature through inquisition and experience. "Mommy, what color is this?" "That's orange, dear." However, since we have all had that early learning act in the same context, whether my blue could be perceived differently to another person is immaterial, you know blue the same way I do, and those blues are equivalent even if the perceptions differ drastically, which we can't know anyway.

So critical is this act of perceptive experience to color that color itself has no meaning without it. For example, a good thought experiment is as follows: Try to explain the perceptive experience of what red is to a person who has been blind since birth. Every frame of reference to discuss color is based around that unilateral perception and, without it, no explanation otherwise can be brought forth.

However, there is the school of thought that says that if we all have the same equipment it is reasonable to say that we must therefore all experience color approximately the same.

Then there's another school of thought that says you are all figments of a runaway imagination and a deluded perception.

Take your pick. Me, I'm auditing the course.

[nutsnberries]

20. the conversation we were having here

started like your post.

but for some reason, your post made me wish i had a joint to smoke. :D

[CornField]

24. Actually, blind people see colors as emotions

At least, the blind folks I've worked with are able to "see" colors in that fashion. Red is passion or anger (fury, rage, intensity, etc.) -- Green is cool, calm, ease -- Blue is comfort, relaxation, safety -- Yellow & Orange are both used to describe happiness and joy.

In that context, I think everyone can see colors (hues). Some of us are more in tune to "feel" the colors as well (undertones & saturation) -- although I think we all see them. That is, our experiences and our perceptions often have a way of telling us how a color makes us feel before the color has an opportunity to affect us. Those who are really good with color (matching, mixing, etc.) are typically the people who can look at a basic color, recognize the undertones and understand the emotions which are likely to be produced by the color.

[ElboRuum]

25. Red and Green...

Hmm, you know, some of what you're saying makes sense.

It certainly would explain why people get mad when they get stopped at a red light (fury, rage, etc.) but then ostensibly fail to get moving when it turns green again (cool, calm, ease).

;-)

[Lisa]

26. one blind guy I know talks about colors in terms of textures ...

He says that to him, blue is hard and sharp ... blue is smoother. He's also been working on a device which will change reflected light into a different-pitched tone depending on the color.

Re: colors and emotions, there is also a condition called synesthesia where the perception of color can be entwined with various other senses (and feelings).

http://web.mit.edu/synesthesia/www/synesthesia.html

[applegrove]

27. Artists and people who work in paint stores and the like - work that

color perception muscle and can see many of the colors that make up a color. Those modern artists.. they new exactly what red they wanted. So that it would play off the blue in your minds eye.