For self defense which is better?

[KitchenWitch]

Mini stun gun or pepper spray?

[BikeWriter]

1. Sawed off 12 gauge pump shotgun.

[KitchenWitch]

2. Well, yah!

:rofl:

But that does not fit in my purse!

[BikeWriter]

3. Uh, can you buy a bigger purse?

:shrug: My ex used to carry a big frame S&W .44 Magnum most of the time. She got tired of having to shoot men more than once.

[KitchenWitch]

4. s'pose that IS an option!

:rofl:

I am ambivalent about guns though. Do not misunderstand me, I am 100% for our second amendment rights, but I am not sure I would be a comfortable gun owner.

[BikeWriter]

6. I've been shot at several times states side, and know...

several women who have had to defend themselves. Both my Sisters have carry licences and are expert pistol shooters. My last ex has killed one murderer/rapist and wounded an armed robber/attempted murderer. I firmly believe in having large bore centerfires available.

[billyskank]

7. Is this normal?

If so, dude, there is something seriously wrong with your country. Really. :(

[BikeWriter]

8. It's not "normal", but the fact remains it happened to my ex...

and it happens to people somewhere every day. The people my ex encountered had murdered and raped others. She was better at defending herself than they were at killing her.

[Road Scholar]

52. My ol' 9mm Glock I call "Thumper" works pretty good.

[BikeWriter]

62. Glocks work good, but I detest their trigger pulls. I do S&Ws.

[Road Scholar]

64. I've gotten used to the trigger pull and can produce a pretty

good group, fairly consistantly. Anyway it beats the heck out of judo or "wrasslin", but maybe a little bit messier.:shrug:

[BikeWriter]

66. That graduated trigger pull looks great on paper. The feel...

freaks me out though. I'm quite confident with either a Colt or Smith & Wesson revolver or semi-auto in .357, .40, .45, or .44 Magnum.

[Road Scholar]

69. I have a moder 34. It's pretty sweet. I've used it competition,

but I just enjoy shooting it. Finally got a reloader for it.

[BikeWriter]

76. The reloaders are nice. I've had them for several of mine.

[sasquatch]

58. You'll have to get a mop for afterwards though

:D

[BikeWriter]

63. That's true, but a shotgun slide ratcheting is an intimidation factor...

I like to have.

[billyskank]

5. Why do you need either?

Sigh.

[KitchenWitch]

9. Sigh indeed!

:(

[rockymountaindem]

41. I heard everybody in Scotland is stocking up on knives

Perhaps nowhere is safe...

[Random_Australian]

10. What? Has someone been giving you death threats?

Oh no! :(:(:(

[KitchenWitch]

14. Not recently

I have had a stalker in the past, however... :scared: x(

[Random_Australian]

16. Recoil controlled sawn off 48 gauge shotgun. Failing that,

martial arts. Failing that, stungun.

[mduffy31]

24. Want me to drag them out...

...kick the shit out of him. Seriously I am in Duluth, and I can be there in like 2 hours.

[KitchenWitch]

25. LOL

I know - I-35 is a fast road between Forest Lake and Duluth!

Naw, it has been years since I was stalked. Not sure the guy is still in the area anymore.

[Oeditpus Rex]

11. How 'bout a swiftly moving foot

in the hoo-hahs?

You carry that with ya, don't you?

[KitchenWitch]

12. oh yeah!

My legs go all the way to the sidewalk! But I think my knee would do more damage...less distance to raise it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

19. Yeah, but you can generate more speed

and thus more force with a foot, because of (somebody's law about velocity being a product of the energy created through leverage and shit like that).

Also, you don't need to be as close. With your legs, I'd estimate you could be in the next county.




:hide:

[jukes]

34. OR

respect!
i know you're mostly kidding, but the testicles is a BAD target for self defense. guys learn to cover that area from a VERY early age. better to fake to the groin y poke an eye when he bends to cover.

[In_The_Wind]

13. If those are your only two choices, go for the stun gun.

[KitchenWitch]

15. That is where I was leaning

since I have heard that pepper spray is ineffective in some people.

[In_The_Wind]

20. Just get something you feel comfortable using.

One of the problem with carrying something for self-defense is the risk of having it taken away from you and used on you. If you think you'll hesitate maybe your suggestion of using your knee is best.

[jukes]

36. good advice, joan!

practice w/ a weapon on a daily basis, or you'll fumble when you nd it most. ANY weapon.

best to take REALISTIC martial arts classes (beware of "sport" schools!) or carry a handgun where allowable. as joani said, pistols have been used against the owner, so practice if you carry.



ANY1 can PM me ANYTIME for advice on defense y i'll help find schools, etc.

[RebelOne]

17. Only problem with a stun gun is that you

have to get up close to the person. I would prefer something I could use at a distance.

[KitchenWitch]

18. Well there IS my cane!

:rofl:

[jukes]

37. a cane is a fine weapon

hapkido y other styles teach the use of a standard walking cane for defence.

"sword" canes are easy to find w/ google, too.

[BikeWriter]

48. I carry a stock cane sometimes. Legal, and it will drop a steer.

[jukes]

53. good 1!

:evilgrin:

[KitchenWitch]

67. HMMM

I wonder if they make an extra long sword cane (my cane is 37" long - standard length is like 32-33")

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

73. Well, you can always buy a sword cane.

[In_The_Wind]

21. I haven't checked but I think the usage distance may be the same.

As my golden-gloves boxing ex once said "look for the closest 2 x 4 to hit em up side the head".

[jukes]

40. oven spray

more range than mace, y maiming if they don't get it off. if i were female, i'd have no problem spraying in the eyes.

then get the hell out of there, y take the can w/ you.



old adage: better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

[NMMNG]

22. I carry pepper spray

With a stun gun you have to get closer to the person. With the classic kick to the 'nads you have to get close, plus the guy is expecting it so is likely to protect the area. Pepper spray is effective on any exposed portion of the body, but particularly the face and eyes, and can be used from up to 10 feet away. The kind I have also has an ingredient in it that shows up under UV light, so the perp can be identified by police. :evilgrin:

You can also use your keys as a weapon if someone actually gets close to you. With your hand in a fist, have one between each finger close to the knuckles. Rake them across the agressors face, aiming for the eyes. If you can't reach the face go for the soft areas of the body like the abdomen and the groin. Pointy metal objects can be painful when jabbed into such places.

[KitchenWitch]

23. I like the UV light/pepper spray thing

I have carried my keys in situations, but have never had to use them.

[NMMNG]

26. I've never had to use my keys or pepper spray

And for that I am thankful.

[KitchenWitch]

27. Yes indeed.

Only times I have ever been actually attacked, it was by a person I knew, and was dating. It was ugly.

[jukes]

42. again, no disrespect

keys are a "last resort", they really won't do much damage. better to carry a small "kell light"; ie, cop's aluminum flashlight on your keychain. blind them w/ the light in their eyes (at night), then break their nose or eye-gouge them w/ the handle.

sim to the "kubaton" that is sold, but added efficiency of flashlight.

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. As a real estate appraiser who often enters abandoned and foreclosed

homes, I carry pepper spray at all times. I've never had to use it, but it sure makes me feel better. A stun gun would worry me in that I would be afraid of 'stunning' myself or someone else on accident. It is the same reason I argue with MrG over a CCW license. :hi:

[benEzra]

35. I have a CCW license and I also carry a pepper spray

because a handgun can only be used if someone is trying to kill, maim, or abduct you or is threatening you with a weapon. A pepper spray can be used at a lower threshold of force, such as if some drunk guy wants to rough you up or whatever.

FWIW, you can accidentally spray yourself with an OC spray just as easily as you could accidentally stun yourself with a stun gun (try spraying a good OC fogger into the wind and see what I mean). As with any self-defense tool or technique, you need to practice.

[jukes]

45. most states' statutes

only require that you be in fear of your life in order to use lethal force.

display of a handgun will often deter an attacker, but be prepared to use itif he/she grabs it (hence, fear for your life). pistol shd be held close to hip, not outstretched, so they have to close w/ you to take it.

prbly good if they have a "shiny object" in their hand/reach when the police arrive (nudge/nudge,wink/wink) like a screwdriver, shard of glass, kitchen knife, etc.

[benEzra]

49. Not just fear--REASONABLE fear--which is defined as follows:

I'll quote from Steve Johnson, Concealed Carry Handgun Training, North Carolina Justice Academy, 1995, pp. 3-4 (the laws in most states are similar, but this is the best wording I've found):

(1) Justified Self-Defense

A citizen is legally justified in using deadly force against another if and only if:

(a) The citizen actually believes deadly force is necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(b) The facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault, AND

(c) The citizen using deadly force was not an instigator or aggressor who voluntarily provoked, entered, or continued the conflict leading to deadly force, AND

(d) Force used was not excessive -- greater than reasonably needed to overcome the threat posed by a hostile aggressor."

(Emphasis added.)

Note that all four conditions must be met in order for a shooting to be ruled justifiable. Note especially letter (b) above, which is the "reasonable person test"; merely feeling threatened by someone else is NOT justification for the use of lethal force. Rather, the belief must be reasonable, i.e. "the facts and circumstances prompting that belief would cause a person of ordinary firmness to believe deadly force WAS necessary to prevent an imminent threat of death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault."

Most states also authorize potentially-lethal force to stop the commission of a "forcible felony," as defined by statute; these generally include kidnapping, armed robbery, aggravated assault (i.e., assault likely or intended to maim or cause serious bodily harm and that could result in death), etc., but you'd need to read up on your own state's self-defense law to see how that applies to you.

[jukes]

50. TX!

for the clarification.

workable, if you can articulate circumstances. a scary shiny object and threats wd be justifiable for most women in a potentially dangerous possible-rape scenario

[benEzra]

29. Quality pepper spray, by far...

but don't get a cheap discount-store spray. Get a law enforcement grade spray instead. One of the best is Fox Labs;
my personal choice would be a Fox Labs 2-oz medium fogger.



http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm


Prices are pretty reasonable, and you can also get inert practice sprays (good idea). FWIW, I've purchased from that site before, with no problems.

[Dolomite]

30. Another vote for Fox OC - it's the top rated spray.

KitchenWitch, I just placed a $300 dollar order for myself and three of my friends from the above-mentioned website.

Here's April's 10% off discount code (see? now you have no excuse): NLDC306

Now, GET SOME TRAINING!

The basic theory on self-defense is that it's an uncomfortable affair. To inhibit someone trying to place you in discomfort, you have to be willing and able to make them uncomfortable doing it.

Now, since the outcome of any meeting is mostly determined well before the actual encounter, the side that has prepared and practiced at making the other become the most uncomfortable is usually going to win.

Getting you hands on some quality OC spray is equivalent to being “a little prepared”. Sadly, that’s good enough for most women I know. What they don’t realize is that, in jail, criminals have little “workshops” amongst themselves. They prepare themselves for people armed with nothing lass than OC by practicing keeping their eyes closed and heads down after they close in on a victim and then scooping them up behind the knees.

(A guy at my boxing gym told me that. He was going back to jail for distribution and wanted to practice his fighting skills – preparing ahead of time for the worst by putting himself in to some discomfort now before he went back in – is my point coming through?)

Anyway, buy an extra can while you’re at it so that you can practice what it feels like to be self-contaminated: Go out to your garage wall or whatever, stand back about six feet from it, give it a few second blast (so you get a feel for the accuracy of the spray itself), and then walk into the remaining mist. Take a big gulp of air – just like you would after using it on the street.

The discomfort you experience will serve a couple of purposes: when you need it, you may find yourself using the spray while the wind is in your face, or, you may have to run through a wall of this stuff as you’re getting away from somebody, or worse yet, you’ll find yourself contaminated after some bad guy tackles you before the spray’s effect can set in. Whatever, at least you’re a little prepared.

The small, keychain cans need to be replaced every year (and really don’t have that much range). The 2 oz flip tops last much, much longer. I had a can of the 2 oz. stream variety in my car for five years before I replaced it (when I emptied it out, it sputtered a little at first, but then it really came screaming out). That’s after sitting in my car through 5 Wisconsin winters and summers – the FOX is quality.

Please feel free to IM me with any questions.

[jukes]

46. Dolomite

ABSOLUTELY: 90% of any fight is psychological. if you're not prepared to NOT be a victim, you'll be 1.

see my earlier on pepperspray. really, the only reason cops use them is to punish some1. they will NOT slow/stop an attacker for any affective length of time. more trouble than they're worth.

if you can't carry a gun, my best suggestion is a 12" landscape spike. loox like a huge nail. easy to explain away (i saw it on the ground, officer!) easy to carry/conceal, and you can poke w/ the point, bludgeon w/ the length, or "hammerfist" to the temple, etc.) does WICKED damage. but 1ce you start, don't stop hitting him till you smell urine.


and (i can't say it enough) practice. if you have to stop y think about it, you've already been beaten.

[jukes]

31. KW

might want to visit my "rape prevention" thread in the feminist group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=341&topic_id=6804&mesg_id=6804
Democratic Underground - i used to teach rape- prevention in DC




pepper spray is not very effective, and i've seen instances when cops used it y the nozzle clogged w/ lint; either failed to fire or back sprayed onto user. i also don't think it has much power to incapacitate.

[benEzra]

32. Depends greatly on the formulation

Fox Labs is used by police because it does indeed work very well.

I have caught a small, small whiff of the stuff on two occasions--once it was a bit of backspray when I was discharging a can that was several years old so I could throw it away, and once when a can fell on the carpet inside our house and a nail from the carpet backing strip put a microscopic pinhole in the can. I can tell you that a facefull of that stuff would put the vast majority of people flat on their butt.

This isn't Wal-Mart "pepper spray" we're talking about. Some discount-store sprays are more like watered down tabasco sauce.

[jukes]

55. if you're comfortable w/ that

then by all means.

i just have little faith in any pepper spray. i've seen men enraged by it rather than disabled, y if they're close enough to grab you w/o needing to see you, you're going to need something serious to deal w/ them.

EDIT: sorry, caught up in some other biz.

i never bothered to carry any pepperspray & have never seen it used effectively except to make some1 already cuffed really miserable. i never carried a nightstick because i never was comfortable w/ the idea of testifying about putting 30 stitches in some perp's head w/ a chunk of oak or a melted down bowling-ball. i've had good luck w/ pain/compliance joint-locks, or ( my favorite!) carotid-chokes if the perp was jacked-up.

[cleofus1]

33. pepper spray on a windy day

can you say...shooting yourself in the foot...

go with the stun gun...cheap and effective...

[Deep13]

38. Neither is ideal.

Pepper spray might just piss him off or it might not spray or you might miss. Stun guns require physical contact. Of course they can malfunction and might not work through bulky clothing.

My recommendation is a Ruger SP100 in cal. 0.38 Special.

[Mutley]

39. I just have pepper spray.

I'd end up hurting myself with a stun-gun. :scared:

:D

[anarch]

43. minigun

Especially if you need to defend yourself against more than 20 or 30 people at once....

[DrGonzoLives]

51. Hellz yeah

n/t

[benEzra]

57. LOL!

What's a civilian transferable minigun sell for these days? A half million? (Assuming you can get Federal NFA clearance to own one.)

I have a photo of a 7.62x51mm minigun after a 3000-round burst on an indoor test stand. The barrels are glowing orange/red...

:wow:

[rockymountaindem]

44. How about a samurai sword

Known as a Katana, an authentic Japanese samurai sword can cut through both an adult man's thighbones...

[jukes]

47. Zatoichi!

replica's of the "blind swordsman"'s cane are easy to find online. much easier to walk down the street w/.

[merh]

54. Don't rely on any weapon

Stun guns (tazers) kill and pepper spray isn't reliable.

The best self defense is to learn the pressure points, appreciate how to apply them and then run like hell.

I studied the martial arts, you learn now to defend yourself and the first lesson is to run if you have the opportunity.

Take a self defense course and learn what actions make you more vulnerable, learn how to defend yourself and how to better protect yourself in all sorts of circumstances. Relying on weapons (pepper spray and stun guns) can give false sense of security. What happens if the weapons fail or if they are knocked out of your hand or left in the car or can't be reached in time?

Take a self defense course and DON'T RELY ON ANY WEAPON, rely on yourself.

[khashka]

59. I agree with merh

No weapon is reliable......

There are two rules:
1) Run like hell
2) (and this is where most women fuck up) If you can't run, do as much damage as humanly possible... and then run.

Don't trust any weapon, trust yourself....

Khash.

[benEzra]

78. That's good advice even if you DO carry a weapon...

even a firearm. I am licensed by the state to carry a firearm (and do), but I agree with your post 100%. The Way of the Receding Foot, i.e. getting the heck out of there, is always the best defense if it's feasible.

[dr.strangelove]

56. Witch, go with the spray

The Stun Guns are surprisingly difficult to use in an instant. They usually have a safety switch and require very close contact. The spray can be used faster, and while running away. Most pepper sprays shoot several feet. The really good one go over 10 feet. The smell alone would scare off most perps, but if it gets on their skin or in their eyes, it will stop them.

Wish these things were not necessary, but they often are.

[BreweryYardRat]

60. Try this...

http://www.defensedevices.com/specpepspray1.html

9 Ounce Supersize with shotgun fogger delivery.
Range of spray: Approximately 15-20 feet.
Dimensions: Height: 8-3/4" x Width: 2"

This formula is a scientifically proven superior 20% concentration.

That's 20% capsaicin (the active ingredient in pepper spray) by volume. If I recall correctly, standard pepper sprays are 2% by volume. It should do a real number on a mugger, rapist, etc...

[BikeWriter]

65. The # 1 reason bear shit smells like pepper spray.

[BreweryYardRat]

70. Well, you live in areas where you'd know about that.

Is that just a joke, like I'm assuming, or does the stuff actually not work very well?

[BikeWriter]

77. I've heard people in Alaska joke about it...

I lived at a remote site there for a year. We were in Grizzly country everytime we walked out the barracks door.

[Wapsie B]

61. Baked beans and a bad case of gas.

[SOteric]

71. I was thinking garlic and unwashed sweat socks,

but in principle, they're almost the same. :hi:

[Wapsie B]

74. Yes they certainly are.

Both quite potent. :hi:

[Taverner]

68. Pepper Spray plus Krav Maga classes

Krav Maga will give you self defense moves that you can use on the first day.

[mdmc]

72. hmmmm. incapacitating (homer simpson)

I'd go with the stun gun. be careful

[Zookeeper]

75. When I lived in CA, I carried tear gas spray...

which required attending a class and getting a permit. It was supposed to be more potent than pepper spray. The one time I showed it to a would-be attacker, he backed off fast.

However, one important thing to consider with any spray is wind direction! If you happened to spray it into the wind, it can end up in YOUR face.