Why are so many young working class people "anti-Union"?

[CanuckAmok]

As some of you know, our Provincial Ferry service is on strike. They have many issues with management, which, as ususal, are being ignored by the press.

What isn't being ignored by the press, however, is the rate paid to a galley worker on the ferry: $20/hr. Of course, that's quite a bit of money for flipping burgers (and, yes, they are required to have Industrial First Aid training, and some other Transport Canada safety certification).

So, the issue isn't portrayed as a complex one, it's being portrayed as an issue of someone doing a McDonald's job, and getting Registered Nurse money for it.

Of course, you all know the story, and I'm sure a similar drama has unfolded wherefer you live.

For the record, the strikers are no longer acting lawfully, and have defied a government order to return to work. I'm undecided on how I feel about supporting them at the moment, as I have a personal interest in the results of the action, and because I'm having a hard time supporting what I see as an illegal an somewhat irrational job action. Basically, what I see is a union shooting itself in the foot--the public are turning on them, they don't have the resources or inclination to support striking workers, and they're defying the law.

Naturally, people are up in arms, and there's been lots of "this country is going to hell in a handbasket and we have the unionS to blame" kind of talk, and all Labour organizations being lumped in together as bodies who are past their usefullness in society, etc...

I'm overwhelmed, however, by the number of $6/hr wage slaves who are anti-union--are these kids nuts?!

I think alot of it is a result of the RW, anti-Labour propaganda broadcast by the corporate media, but I also think alot of it has to do with plain old envy. If I were flipping burgers for $6/hr at Burger King and heard that someone doing the same job as me was pissed about earning three times my wage, I guess I'd be a little choked, too. I'd probably tell them to go to hell... (please, friendly DUers, note that I'm just playing devil's advocate, here--I think the crime in our affluent society isn't making $20 to serve food for a major corporation, it's earning $6).

So, what do you think? You're a smart and diverse bunch--why are people so anti-Union??


Here's something I posted in reply to something someone said on another board I frequent (the poster was a young girl who said the usual "let them quit and find a real job" kinds of things, as well as how 90% of Union members are 'whiney'):

Well, first of all, a "real" education does not always equal a "real" job. Take Dragonfly's example as one of those, or mine (Masters in Communications, plus about 10 years experience in my field, and still trying to make ends meet). If it was that easy to find a 'real' job, why is there 11% unemployment on the Island? I suppose all those people simply choose to not to work. Sure, some choose that route (and they're the ones you always hear about), but most of those people are actively looking, or schooling toward a decent living.

Yeah, I suppose that if you were so inclined as to quit your $20/hr 'joe job' for something more satisfying/secure/stimulating/exciting but less lucrative, you sure could, but not many people would. Most people can't, what with financial obligations like children, mortgages, etc. Most people, for better or for worse, allow their expenses to climb to match their income. It's called wage slavery, and it's a very difficult position to escape.

"Getting a second job" is always an option (providing you can find one), but is that what life is all about--work? The pioneering Unionists litterally laid down their lives to guarantee us little luxuries like being able to earn enough to live on in eight hours a day, having a two day weekend, etc. They fought for a society in which you didn't have to work every waking hour to get by. The end of Unionism means the end of those little "perks" which cost so much to gain.

Secondly, I always find it amusung that most people define Union workers as whiney and overpaid until they're in one themselves. Perhaps a little envy colours how most people view Unionism?

You anti-Union people should do a little reading before you condemn the whole movement. Do a Google on Eugene Debs, the IWW (Wobblies) or the Triangle Factory Strike and see what things would be like without a third party defending your rights...

[HEyHEY]

1. Goddamnit I don't have time to read your whole post I'm leaving

But I have some theories. For starters, the unions hae kept many younger Canadians from getting jobs because of the seniority lists. Yes naturally it'd still be the same even without a union.
Also, young people take Canada for granted and don't understand it took lots of union work to get to this point. Now they see things like BC ferries and assume that is all unions.

SHit I gotta go and I haven't re-done my first point, which needs re-doing...anyway look forward to seeing your list later. - jer

[sasquatch]

2. Because they believe in the BS lie of the "rugged individual"

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. I see the need for unions in some cases, others are obscene

Unions for baseball players who make six- or seven figure salaries for instance.

Many people just object to the concept of unions that give you no choice but to join or at least sign over part of your check.

And, frankly, the unions are often like any other big organization -- just as prone to do good and just as prone to do bad. Corruption, payoffs and worse are part of union history just as Matewan and migrant workers.

It's a mixed bag and not everyone wants to stick their hand in it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Same reason people who can't afford health care are against

"socialized medicine."

The same reason that within hours of the Oklahoma City Bombing, almost every major city in the US had at least a few beat-up people with a "Middle Eastern appearance" lounging around Emergency rooms.

And the same reason that most US voters love the bush regime.

Well over 60% of public high school graduates in the US are functionally literate, meaning not only can they write their names, but they can read a newspaper.

And just last summer, a National Geographic study found that fully 13% of US high school students could identify Iraq on a blank map, and over 40% could identify Florida.

To sum up, because they are just too damn much like Americans!

[pasadenaboy]

5. I think the situation you described says it.

I'm in my early thirties, and I don't always support unions. I support unions like the janitors, the grocery store workers, etc. But I usually don't support government employee unions as much because I think a lot of time their demands are not very realistic.

I'm ready for the flaming, but that's how I feel.

[HuckleB]

6. I think it's the lack of flexibility in some contracts.

I've lived long enough to watch many a talented person leave a union job they loved because people who were just skating along always got the same raise and the same pay as they did, year after year. Unions have to find a way to build the ability for some workers to get incentive raises. If they don't do that, the total size of union membership will never grow to what is needed to oust the Bushocracy types. That's just one issue, but it's the number one thing on most union critics minds, at least those who, in general, are sympathetic to the idea of unions.

[CanuckAmok]

8. Just an aside...

My Union has across-the-board rate increases, meaning everybody in each department gets the same scale-rate raise, the same change in benefits, etc.

But, we're all contractors, and our Union does not have a seniority system. What that means is that (not counting the inevitible small amount of patronage and nepotism which you'll find anywhere) you are still hired based on your performance. I can be hired before anyone who's more 'senior' in my Union, if the employer believes I would be better suited for the job. Conversely, I can be passed over for a job, for anyone else, as long as they are Members.

Sometimes that sucks, as I'm one of the senior members in my department, but more often than not, I think that's the way to go. It protects wages, benefits, safety considerations, but still encourages performance-based work ethics.

However, when I didn't work a single day between November 2001 and December 2002, I was sure hankerin' for some seniority-based hiring practices!

[NightTrain]

7. They're brainwashed, ignorant, and have no sense of history

Think back to when you were in middle and high school. Did your Social Studies teachers ever say a goddamned word about the organized labor movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Mine sure as hell didn't!

The only reason I grew up knowing anything about unions was that my father was a Teamster. In fact, he was shop steward for a few years in the '80s--until he got a belly full of the young punks he worked with bitching and moaning that management was always pissed off at them because my father dared to stand up for the workers who elected him.

If nothing else, though, there still were a lot of older guys at the plant who insisted, "If management's not pissed off, the shop steward's not doing his job."

[Township75]

9. My response probably won't answer your questions...

but I will give it to you anyway.

I haven't worked in a union, but I have a ton of friends who did, and they were young, and they said they will never do it again.

Most were upset that when they worked, the senior employees didn't do a damn thing and wouldn't get disciplined for it. But when lay offs came through, the lazy ass seniors kept their jobs, and the new or less senior employees got kicked out the door.

Others that didn't get layed off said that the atmosphere in their plant was awful. Senior employees wouldn't work too hard, because they are getting payed butt loads of cash, and probably won't get paid more or less until the next contract negotiations, so they really dont give a damn about the job. This attitude slowly works its way down to the newer employees, and the entire place becomes hell to work at.

I have no problems with unions if the employees want them, but I am not going to pretend that unions don't have serious issues. TO me , it sounds as if unions just allow more employees to abuse power, not just CEO's...I don't doubt that is not always the case, but from those I spoke with, it certainly appears to be the case quite often. Furthermore, younger folk, like myself see lawsuits and OSHA as alternatives to mistreatment that were not always around for older generations...they had to organize to defend themselves.

So in a nutshell, times and perceptions of unions are changing. It would take a lot for me to join one, but if others want to, all the power to them.

[HEyHEY]

10. good post

"Well, first of all, a "real" education does not always equal a "real" job." - As you know been there doing that, I made $19.20 an hour at the City to pull weeds all day, quit that for another job that turned out to be a crash and burn. Now I am using my "Eduaction" to make almost half that.


"Yeah, I suppose that if you were so inclined as to quit your $20/hr 'joe job' for something more satisfying/secure/stimulating/exciting but less lucrative, you sure could, but not many people would." - Proud to say I'm one of those people.

But anyway, your points here are all bang on - kudos. I think it's a hnadful of overly demanding unions that ruin it for all the others.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. I think it's mainly the propaganda...

and the thought in the back of many people's minds that they actually could do better and advance without the union.

Let's face it, as a union worker, you're still a worker, and who doesn't dream of being the boss? A stupid dream for many, perhaps, but who says people are always rational?

A number of places down here have seen union organizers run into the problem of people being more afraid of losing what little they have than being excited about what they could get. Anti-union propaganda doesn't help the situation.

Most of the old labor problems that started union movements have been solved, on paper at least. I doubt we'll see much pro-union sentiment until it becomes more obvious that labor is being screwed. Again.

[Zero Gravitas]

12. Because the Corporations don't like Unions

and have used the mass media (which they control) and right wing politocs to convince people to vote and act against their own best interest and for the Corportaions interests. Its amazing really.

[SoCalDem]

13. I see two reasons..

1... Young people are notoriously "in a hurry".. They are in a hurry to grow up, and they are in a hurry to get raises..

2... Since unions declined starting in the 60's, a lot of the young ones today did not grow up in a union household. Kids who were born in the 40's & 50's often had union Dads, and lots of the jobs that Moms had were union, as well.(telephone operators,teachers, and blue collar factory workers).. They SAW firsthand the benefits of union jobs..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The beauty of union work is that raises are steady, and predictable.. They are not at the whim of a boss who may not particularly like you, but who dotes on other employees, who get bigger raises.. You know exactly how much everyone else makes, so there is not the jealousy factor..

There are minimum hours worked between each stage, so that to reach journeyman category, you know exactly how many hours you need to work.. The union (usually) is there as a buffer between you and your bosses, so that barring a formal girevance procedure, your "issues" can be handled anonymously and the boss never needs to know that it was YOU who complained..

It may seem to some of the younger ones, that the "older" workers are not doing their share, but that's the way it is in every field.. Seniority DOES have its perks..

Does any factory worker really think that the millionaire CEO of his company actually works as hard as he does?? One reason it's so hard to GET a union job, is because the corporations have fought them long and hard, and have succeeded in destroying lots of unions, and the jobs with them.. People who DO have union jobs do not job hop.. The benefits are so good, that even if the work is hard, they tend to hold on to those jobs as long as they can.. That creates a scarcity of openings for the newer people..

I would venture a guerss, that if Walmart employees were free to choose, they would choose union, in order to get higher wages and benefits..

The FACT that corporations HATE unions, pretty much spells out how good they are for workers..

Propaganda against unions is no accident.. The corporations spend millions of dollars demonizing unions.. They WANT workers pitted against each other..They want workers in the dark when it comes to raises and advancement.. They want workers wondering how much other workers make..They want workers making low wages, so that they are always hungry for MORE work, and are afraid to call in sick.. They want to be able to hire and fire at their every whim..

[Loonman]

14. Some unions are bad, some unions are good

Case in point: the GPS monitoring of snow plow operators in the City of Boston over last weekend.

Union and drivers were up in arms over being tracked, so the State and City laid off so they could plow for the recent snowstorm.


Ironically, the plowers did such a shitty job that it demonstrated the need to monitor these guys.


Obviously they care more about money than the job they're paid to do.