How we will break the culture of rule breaking and incivility on DU.

[Skinner]

Most of the members of this message board have no difficulty treating other people with respect, and participating in a positive manner. For that, I am grateful. Unfortunately, there is a small minority of members who either cannot control themselves, or have chosen not to control themselves. These rude people make Democratic Underground unpleasant for the rest of us, and have shown little inclination to change their behavior, despite repeated pleas from the administrators, the moderators, and the members of this website.

We believe that Democratic Underground has enough rules, and we will not noticeably improve DU by creating more rules. Our problem is that we have a small minority of people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, because they have no real incentive to do so. There has been no accountability and there have been no consequences for disruption. Until today.

Today we are unveiling a new enforcement system, which will help encourage all of our members to be productive members of our community. We are confident that it will provide a real incentive for all of our members to learn and follow the rules. We call it the Moderator Messaging system.

Here’s the great thing: If you are part of the vast majority of members who follows the rules and treats other people with respect, you will rarely, if ever, have any problems with the system. In fact, you can probably stop reading this post right here. But if you are part of the small minority of people who repeatedly cause problems, your DU experience is going to change a little bit. Here’s how it works:

When a moderator deletes one of your posts, you are sent an automatic notification to let you know. (Note: you will not get notifications for harmless infractions like duplicate postings.) When you receive such a notification, you are temporarily unable to post. In order to continue posting, all you have to do is review the notification, acknowledge that you received it, and give us your word that you will follow the rules. If you do not wish to follow the rules, that is your choice, however, you will not regain your ability to post on the board.

The moderators can also send you messages using this system. When you receive such a message, you are unable to post until your review the message, acknowledge that you received it, and give us your word that you will follow the rules.

If you receive a notification in error, we have the ability to remove it from your record. Simply send an email to the administrators, with the text of the post, and we will review it. Please do not waste our time with rude messages, baseless accusations of moderator bias, or complaints about deleted posts that include obvious rule violations. If you do send us such message, we will add an additional warning to your record.

If you receive five notifications, you get an automatic 24-hour time-out, during which time you will be unable to post on the message board. You will also get automatic 24-hour time-outs at 10, 15, 20, and 25 notifications. When you get 30 notifications, you are automatically banned. If you have promised 30 times to follow the rules, but still continue break them, then we can reasonably conclude that you have no intention of keeping your word. You get a special tombstone to indicate that your account was shut off automatically because of your own behavior.

I fully expect to hear a great deal of complaining about this new system, which will try to paint me as unfair, biased, fascist, censorious, or Ashcroftian. These complaints will be loud and disruptive for a few days, but ultimately they are wrong. This system puts the power in your hands. If you are the type of person who tries to treat others with respect, and makes an effort to be civil, you will never have any serious problems with this system. Based on our analysis of deleted posts over the last six months, the vast majority of members would never even get one time-out. However, if you are the type of person who is intentionally rude, or if you scour the rules looking for loopholes which give you an excuse to be disruptive, then you put yourself at risk of being banned.

The power is in your hands. The only person responsible for your own behavior is you.

I look forward to participating on a more civil Democratic Underground.

Skinner
DU Admin

Important notice: We understand that this is a significant change for our members and for the moderators, and we realize that many of you will need some time to adjust. Because of this, we are starting off with a “learning period” that lasts until January 1, 2004. On that day, we will wipe everyone’s slate clean so you can start from zero again. However, please be aware that if you get a time-out during this learning period, you are stuck with it, and if you get automatically banned during this learning period, you will stay banned.

Also, there will likely be a number of technical glitches and bugs over the next couple days as we implement this system. Please be patient.

[commander bunnypants]

1. Here, Here for yall

But I wannna get the sex threads back. PPLEEEAASSEE

I will be your friend.

DDQM

[JitterbugPerfume]

6. Thank you

Skinner ((hug))

[Dookus]

2. excellent system....

good job.

[VelmaD]

3. Just one question...

how is having a thread deleted going to work into this - will having a thread deleted or locked for violating the rules count the same as having a post deleted?

I've never had that happen to me personally but I was just curious.

Darth Velma

[Skinner]

4. A deleted thread will be treated the same as a deleted post.

They get automatic notifications, too.

Locked threads do not get automatic notifications. However, if the violation is gratuitious, the moderators will send you a warning.

[supernova]

11. Clarification

Are you talking about the thread starter or the participants? Just curious. I've participated in quite a few locked Lounge threads, but not for incivility.

[Skinner]

13. Only the thread starter gets a notificatoin for a deleted thread.

However, if the moderators delete posts from the thread before they delete it, then those posts will also get notifications.

[supernova]

5. I like it

You get a special tombstone to indicate that your account was shut off automatically because of your own behavior.

Make the the noisiest of us do their own policing. I'm sure you admins and the moderators have enough to do without repeatedly warning the same people over and over again. :thumbsup:

After 30 bans? Gee, you're more generous than me, Skinner.

[soleft]

7. 30 is a lot

Seems like you'd have to be the Charles Manson of posters to get there.

[Skinner]

10. Believe it or not...

...we have a number of members who have more than 30 deleted posts EVERY MONTH.

[Skittles]

33. WHOA

I was wondering if I was one of the problem children - I've a had a post or two deleted (always deserved). But.......30 a MONTH? What the hell? OK, Skittles isn't THAT bad. :O

[amandae]

69. I was also thinking that 30 is a lot ...

didn't realize people could do that with their eyes closed ;-)

I think the new policy is more than fair ... anyone who has a problem with the rules will definately know that they are in danger of being banned ... having a firm policy is the only way to go.

WTG Mods

:hi:

[trof]

8. OK

See?
No kvetching.
I don't tend to lose my temper at folks here, just events that occur on the "outside".
A very few times we have had moderators who, IMHO, appeared to be a little trigger happy. I realize that a lot of judgement calls must be made. Cutting some slack goes both ways.

Anyway, as one who can count my number of reprimands one one hand (ain't I a sweetie?;-)), I don't think it'll cramp my style.

[felonious thunk]

9. 30 strikes and you're out?!?!

How are we to live under such an authoritarian rule???

(this is obviously sarcasm, the threshold could be much lower)

[LynneSin]

15. Agreed - someone who breaks a promise 30 times???

Sounds like Bush Politics to me!

[La_Serpiente]

12. Sounds like a system that

B.F. Skinner, one of the kings of behaviourism, would put up. I wonder what Albert Bandura would think of it???

[commander bunnypants]

16. Lets put Skinner in a box and resocialize him

BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


DDQM

The Skinner box

[greyl]

14. 30 notifications is very generous.

I can't imagine anyone complaining about this being unfair. (If it was me, I'd say 3 :) )

I'm pretty sure it'll work out very well.

[Dudley_DUright]

19. What, you never heard of the 30 strikes and you're out laws?

:-) Actually, I like the idea very much. I thought I would never do this, but I actually put one especially egregious flamebait artist on ignore recently. Without naming names, this individual would not last a week under this new system. :thumbsup:

[greyl]

23. lol - I'm not complaining, mind you

just giving credit to the generousity. :)

[JackSwift]

17. Maybe Principal Skinner, honey would work better than vinegar

You speak of breaking and then you do a bunch of scapegoat name calling, albiet of a group, not an individual. I've been the brunt of your little missives before, and in my opinion as a middle aged free spirit (who enjoys the immaturity to think sex jokes and scatology jokes are funny), holding a license to practice law, allowed to sit on the bench in small claims, having chaired central committees and chamber of commerce committees, sat of various boards of directors, I'd recommend a lighter touch entirely.

Instead of the nasty grams sent out by mods and admins, which essentially say: "you are a bad poster, stop it", I'm deleting the message w/out explainingy why, and then sending an email when complaint is put in the proper place saying essentially, "my way or the highway". Might I recommend: "our custom here is to be nicer and not personalize things, I'm deleting this post" and the later response might be "we have to run it for everyone, you may see the wisdom of my actions with the passage of some time", and then if it's a problem, revoke privileges.

But it will be impossible to set a higher tone while still doing it the old way.

[greyl]

21. hehe

Shouldn't someone with a license to practice law be aware that personal attacks/ad hominem is fallacious logic? How bout a special message that says "our custom here is to utilize valid arguments - please improve your argumentation skills. With all due respect, Love, the Admin." ?

[JackSwift]

30. Yep, it's fallacious logic and virtually everyone goes to

it first, before the evidence or the law. Go figure. It is used in accusatory situations, and is not illogical in such situations if it is used in a good context: namely after you have made your case through law and facts.

As for your suggested messages, I wouldn't use them because they are sarcastic, and accordingly invite a sarcastic response. Treat people like you want to be treated: not in a high handed fashion, but with respect. It might work.

I used the very tactics I recommend with a contentious central committee that had been at each other's throats for many years. It worked.

[Skinner]

29. I am sorry that you think I have been so rude to our members.

I am confident that I have been extremely patient and understanding, even when dealing with members who treat me with extreme disrespect, except in very rare cases.

[La_Serpiente]

34. I think Skinner

deserves more credit than people think. I think he tries to do the best job that he can and makes decisions that are based on effectiveness.

[JackSwift]

37. I appreciate the volunteer work in running such a lively forum

and people who are truly repeat breaking the rules have to go. But there is no reason to dehumanize them when warnings or revoking of privileges must happen. The application of authority should respect not only the person offending, but the authority as well. I think we would all agree that a cop who is neutral and quiet is better than a cop that mocks the person he/she has pulled over.

[Skinner]

40. I think we have heard enough of this particular complaint.

Thank you.

[JackSwift]

35. You're sorry I think?

That's exactly the kinda thing I was talking about. It's a passive aggressive insult.

My sincere recommendation is that if one has to send a short message, that it not be "short" in tone. The classic: "if you don't like it you can leave" (is that the exact message?) is perceived as a version of f.u. that doesn't use profanity.

Perhaps a stock message along the lines of: "we respect your disagreement, but in the amount of time we have to consider these things, we don't have the time to appreciate that you may have also included a more subtle layer of self-deprecating humor, we have to shut these things down and move on to the next one, our goal isn't so much to sponsor a free for all, as to foster a Democratic opinion board that exposes our ideas to the public at large and needs to be presentable that way, because the media does come here. Wish I had more time to discuss, but I don't."

[Skinner]

36. Sorry, but some people simply don't care what I have to say.

I explain our position, but there are some people who still insist causing problems. I see nothing wrong with informing members who do not like DU, or who do not like the way we run DU, that they have the option not to type the URL into their browser.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

47. I have to say, I agree with Skinner on this one

There are other places to talk about sex, and if you want to make dirty comments about things, there is nothing but your own imagination holding you back from making witty repartee.

Some people just don't react to tolerance. I have seen it time and time again. I suspect Skinner is seeing it now.

I have to say, that is just about the only thing that * and I would agree on over beers. There are some people who like to cause problems, stir shit, sling mud, pick your metaphor, and those people, when they have to be dealt with, have to be dealt with harshly. (Saddam was NOT one of them, though)

So, start your own website, and make your own rules, or not, and see where it gets you with some of these psychotics.

[JackSwift]

48. It doesn't violate any law,

and it's your message board and you can say whatever you want, but the tone makes the music. A message board (and I'm old enough to remember bulletin boards) has an anonymity that unfortunately lends itself to quick escalation and trolling in the first place. But people truly do react to authority. And from what I've seen on the internet, some carry a grudge and are willing to act on it for years.

In my considerable experience, challenging someone who has anonymity is a no-win situation.

It's also been my experience that people who truly do want to constructively help can and will modify their behavior if they want to change. But they need to have their guard down when that motivation is received. Messages that are "short" in tone aren't going to do that. If the message they perceive is that they are an unwelcome oaf, they will get their back up.

I tell my clients who want to sue and punish the bastards that we will write a nice letter first because "nine times out of ten, honey works better than vinegar, and on that tenth time, vinegar isn't going to work anyway." I've seen powerful business owners who have refused to deal with an attorney and say they will never negotiate their form contracts change their mind when dealt with politely and respectfully at every turn.

It's your board and you want the tone elevated all around, and you want the repeat offenders to stop repeat offending. Send 'em all a nice email and explain what you are trying to do, why you are trying to do it and ask for their help. It will work more often than not, I promise. Yes, there are always going to be unsocialized people who cannot change, but they will be few.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

53. I am old enough to remember message boards too, hell, I

am old enough to have used the internet now for close to 20 years in one form or another.
I know that people hold grudges a long time on the net. I am still hated by some from a website I ran 7 years ago. I am still hated by some people (for you oldtimers... a certain pacbell.com account) from USENET days and 300/1200 dialups.

That said, and since you are in the legal profession apparently, should torts be excused? Should we give people 30 bites of the apple in criminal cases? Are criminals criminals because they have different value systems, or because they are misunderstood inner children?

Come on. You KNOW there are websites that have tried the honey approach. It does not work.

Disruptors are recidivists, serial trolls with many names. They are not here to promote the success and change of the Democratic Party, they are here because the opportunity to twist people of the right mindset exists, and as soon as the door is shut they will be off to the next target of opportuntiy, whatever it will be.

What do you propose we do with the worst of the worst? And how to identify them? The true anti-social malcontent of which I speak above, will not answer the email, or at least not appropriately, and thus... good riddance to bad rubbish.

30 chances? God, how much more honey do you want?

[kmla]

62. Skinner is the judge....

and a generous one at that. He will give you 30 times before he finds you in ultimate contempt and bars you from the courtroom.

What other judge would be so generous?

[Deja Q]

70. Interesting POV

I've had a post or two deleted. Mostly really weird stuff in the lounge, or perceived to be weird by somebody else (which means, if I were to post about Papa Smurf doing jumping jacks in pancake batter for whatever goofy reason, any moderator who found the idea offensive could bleep the message and give me a big fat warning. Which leads to the idea, what the heck is the moderator thinking that makes it seem offensive?) Indeed, some of what got bleeped wasn't as weird as far more "interesting" topics that weren't... just weird.

[Skinner]

71. When moderators remove posts

it is because they break the rules. Posts about Papa Smurf doing jumping jacks in pancake batter would not get deleted.

[blueraven95]

18. Just out of curiousity...

Is there any statue of limitations? I mean...if someone had 4 deleted messages over the course of a year and then got the fifth one, would that still be a 24 hour time out?

Or if someone had 4 deleted messages and then after say, 8 months of clean record they had another one, would that be a 24 hour time out?

Not that I have any deleted messages, but I am a newbie, and I want to make sure that I don't break any rules

[Skinner]

20. Currently, they are set to expire after one year.

So that particular feature won't come into play until January 1, 2005. We reserve the right to change the expiration date though.

[Westegg]

64. clean record

Hey, that's the way they do it with DUI's. Or...so I've heard.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. I agree to these rules but also request DU create better guidelines

for what constitutes racism and sexism.

I am not requesting this to start an argument and this will be my only public post on the matter so as to not disrupt this thread, but one needs the freedom to be able to distinguish that which smacks of these concepts without being charged with personally attacking a poster for taking their language or repetition of certain unproven constructs to task.

I know civility is important and for the most part do my best to maintain it, but I also know that there are occasions when one does NOT intentionally break the rules but simply passionately pursues their point only to be responded to with the same repetitious unfounded argument (e.g. 50% of all rape claims are bogus).

[Skinner]

26. You are missing the point.

You are not permitted to break the rules, regardless of whether you think someone is a racist or a sexist. The rules state clearly that there is no excuse for rule breaking. If you think someone is sharing a point of view which is inappropriate, you should alert, and you are encouraged to respond to explain your point of view. But you don't have the right to call that person names or otherwise personally attack that person. Our rules have been very clear on that for a long time.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. I agreed to the rules and made a request

Perhaps you missed that part of my communication.

[brainshrub]

24. When will I be banned?

Let's see...I started visiting DU in September. So far I think I've had 5 posts deleted.
At this rate, I will get banned sometime in mid-to-late 2005.

Seriously, this sounds like a great system. :D

[opihimoimoi]

28. Too lenient, should be 10 violations or even lower.

Just my take.

in the real world, its 3 strikes and Jail time for 85769687 years.

Come, we go comply. give it a try.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. Thanks Skinner!

I think it's a wonderful idea, and 30 warnings is WAY the heck generous.

[Crewleader]

27. Skinner you're always watching out for The Best In DU!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=522780#523303

[CO Liberal]

31. To Prevent This From Happening to Me.....

...I will be adding a few people to my "Ignore" list.

[XanaDUer]

32. Thank you so very much admins!

I think this will make the DU experience better for everyone!

LC

[southerngirlwriter]

38. Skinner rocks!

Thank you so, so, so, so, so much for all you do here.

Your new system sounds extremely fair and generous.

[carolinayellowdog]

39. 30 is way too high, almost an invitation to rude behavior

Hey Skinner,

The guidelines look fine except for that huge number 30. I think you should consider all the harm someone can do to individuals and to DU under that very indulgent standard. 30 strikes/out means 30 DUers have been personally attacked, called names, etc., by someone who should surely have figured out the rules by the third time. (Or maybe, one person attacked 30 times.) Moderators will have gone through 30 hassles with rule breakers before they can get rid of them.

Please make it a lot more stringent-- at this rate there is almost no protection to victims of those who engage in personal attacks. Perpetrators of such vitriol will constantly try to see what they can get away with, testing the limits. Don't encourage that because the cost to everyone else is so great.

CYD

[Skinner]

43. You'd be surprised.

We have many members who have more than 30 posts removed in a month.

However, we do reserve the right to make that number more strict once the learning period is over.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

41. 30 is way too many chances to straighten out.

A troll could drag that out for months.


How about 10?

[EarlG]

51. Well...

don't forget this isn't going to replace the way we run things now. Obvious trolls and disruptors will still be dealt with quickly. We're not going to sit around and wait for freepers to get 30 posts deleted before they're nuked automatically.

Having said that, 30 is an arbitrary number and we may well lower it. What happens during the period between now and January 1 will give us a good idea of whether to or not.

[RedEarth]

87. I agree, 30 is way too generous

I would give them "a ticket to ride" long before 30. If people can't figure out how to be civil after no more than 10 warnings, they should be given the "walk of shame".

[THUNDER HANDS]

42. Damn, I wish Skinner was my dad when I was a kid

I'd love to be able to break the rules 30 times before my dad took the belt to me. :D

(note - my father never actually took his belt to me)

Cool idea, though maybe 20 infractions should warrant banning instead of 30.

But altogether, cool, cool idea. :thumbsup:

[Redleg]

44. It's not really a "culture of rule breaking and incivility" if most of us

follow the rules and treat each other with respect.

[Westegg]

63. Good point!

Damn your logic, Spock!

[dweller]

45. wow, i leave here for an hour or two,

and come back to a new world.
My hat's off to all of you sirs, may peace reign again here, good luck to the mods, and to all.

dp

[underpants]

46. Good Hell Yeah

Sorry for the swearing I started a post on just that earlier today.

This is outstanding. I have pushed the rules a time or too but I think this is great.

[DrWeird]

49. Not to condone rule breaking, especially my own...

...but you do realize that progressive liberal types are, by nature, prown to civil disobediance, like to challenge rules, are anti-authoritarian, and in general like to see how much they can get away with, right?

I'm pretty sure you do. That's why you've given us the big margins for error, and I appreciate that. I just like to remind people.

It's not that I'm a bad person, really, it's just that I'm a bit of an asshole.

One love.

[Missy Vixen]

50. Thank you, Skinner

The admins and mods work very hard to keep DU up and running; here's to another tool that will definitely help.

Julie

[alphafemale]

52. Thank You, Skinner. n/t

[eyesroll]

54. Will the old tombstone still be around for disrupters?

Am I correct in assuming an obvious freeper/troll/whatever will get booted immediately, rather than after 30 warnings? If so,will the old "Here lies a disrupter" tombstone be used? (Is this how we will differentiate between disrupters and legitimate members who just can't follow rules?)

Oh, and on edit: Thank you, Skinner, EarlG and Elad (this one must have been fun to program). Civility is a good thing.

[Skinner]

55. Oh, yes!

We still reserve the right to ban people after one violation, if it's bad enough.

[EarlG]

56. The old tombstone still exists

[Robb]

57. *grooooaaaan*

Rhymin' fool! :D

Nice. I'm constantly amazed at how maturely the "kids" I saw in that photo run this place.

Thumbs up on this plan.

[Khephra]

58. There is a god!

And his name is Skinner!

:toast:

[corarose]

59. Thank You Skinner

:kick:

[Logansquare]

60. Good plan--I wish they did this on the Guardian talkboards

Unmoderated or undermoderated boards just become bully pulpits for the most hostile posters.

[UrbScotty]

61. PRAISE JESUS!

Amen!

[KG]

65. a question

i never complain when i get a post deleted. most have been deserving of the deletion. but sometimes i get a post whacked and i really don't understand what rule was violated.

any kind of appeal process?

[Skinner]

67. From my post above

If you receive a notification in error, we have the ability to remove it from your record. Simply send an email to the administrators, with the text of the post, and we will review it. Please do not waste our time with rude messages, baseless accusations of moderator bias, or complaints about deleted posts that include obvious rule violations. If you do send us such message, we will add an additional warning to your record.

[corarose]

66. Why does some posters find it funny to follow people

From thread to thread and make rude comments on every post.

[Deja Q]

68. Can we politely mention to the rude bunch when they act rude?

In public as some of them refuse to allow PMs?

Crude responses don't resolve anything (except show that some people will react to hostility with hostility, which is only human and to be expected and I myself have been getting angry at GD-related posts now being shoveled into the lounge where they clearly don't belong (the recent moronic anti-green flame rhetoric has already moved, what next?!)), but polite reminders may or may not work. Dunno. Human nature was never my strong point...

Besides, the power is with us. You're just going to make sure it stays that way by doing this.

Will the ones who get warnings get a chance to appeal or explain themselves, though for the most part their nastiness is unjustified?

[corarose]

72. What happens if the same group of people attack people

Together and the keep doing it. I have seen it done on many threads. If they don't like someone they will either take the thread over by talking about something totally different of condemning the person until they don't come back to the boards.

They can be new people that come here to post and the one group will attack them until they drive them off.

It's not right.

[Skinner]

73. It's against the rules to attack someone else.

If someone does that, please hit the alert link on that post so the moderators can be made aware of it.

[corarose]

83. Is it against the rules to follow someone from thread to thread

harrassing them because if it is someone is breaking the rules.

[Catshrink]

74. Good move! Thank you, Principal Skinner.

Some of the interpersonal nastiness is disheartening. We're all on the same side in that we all want the idiot from Texas out of the WH in 2004. Treating each other civilly is a good thing. Like you said, most of us do. But there are always a few who think the rules don't apply to them.

BTW -- 30 is very generous!

[Lefty48197]

76. Before I get permanently banned, I would like to take this opportunity

to wish all of you the best, and let you know how much I've enjoyed my stay here.

[Johnyawl]

77. We might have a civil board by the New Hampshire primary!

Good work, Skinner & EarlG, and props to Elad, for making it work!

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

81. Hmm, I guess someone wanted to test it out...

[Booberdawg]

79. 30 chances is quite generous

I had no idea we had so many that clock 30 deleted posts every month on a regular basis. That's ridiculous.

Sounds like an excellence new system. And more than generous.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

82. Yeah!

:yourock:

[Piperay]

84. I had one message deleted (a first and only)

a couple of weeks ago. I hinted that I thought another poster was a freeper (which they turned out to be) but it weighs heavily upon me :cry: and I will not do it again. :think:

[lazarus]

85. One suggestion

I strongly support this system, and think that, once the bugs are worked out, it will help DU tremendously.

Currently, you are very fair in granting amnesty to banned DUers if they are sincere and apologetic. I would suggest that someone banned through this automated system not be considered for amnesty, since, as you put it, they've already indicated at least 30 times that they have no interest in following the rules. Besides, each time they come back from a time out is, in essence, an amnesty.

Just my dos pesos.

[Skinner]

86. We'll take them on a case-by-case basis.

But overall, I agree with your argument.

[bearfan454]

88. If you are warned 30 times and cannot get the hint,

well maybe you shouldn't post here anymore at all. I think it is a good rule Skinner.