I like to combine pentatonic with dorian and occasionally a flat 5!!

[toddzilla]

discuss.

[rusty charly]

1. try throwing in a

"demented pinkie"

(obscure reference alert)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. Sure....

then up or down a half step...then a minor third and you've got jazz :D

[Swede]

3. You conjuring up demons again?

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. and do it in 7/8 or 11/8

no more of this 4/4 old paradigm crap.

[toddzilla]

5. hey, i like 4/4

but i'm a bluesman, i don't mind 3/4 but 7/8 and all that wierdness makes me think while i'm playing, and that makes you sound like shit.

[Rabrrrrrr]

9. If you gotta think about it, then best not to do it

otherwise, as you say, it will sound bad.

But if you keep doing it, and let it be bad for a year or so, you'll eventually be able to feel the wonderment of 7/8 and 11/8 and other odd time signatures (like Don Ellis' infamous 3 and two-thirds quarter time).

Although I've nebver heard the blues in an odd time signature - jazz and rock and others are much more suited to that. Bluegrass and the Blues are, perhaps, necessitators of 4/4 and 3/4 and the infamous 12/8 shuffle.

[toddzilla]

11. i've played plenty in odd signatures..

they just don't do it for me. i think i did some stuff in 7/8 last year.. although i've played plenty of jazz, it's not really hard core jazz, mostly standards and stuff. i don't care for the meandering crap that changes keys every 3 bars and it generally sounds like 3 guys masturbating on their respective instruments. even my favorite players get on my nerves when they go off into never never land with that crap. play a song already!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. So you're not a Coltrane or Stravinsky fan?

:-)

(please note: if you aren't, that's totally fine. I'm not looking for a flame war here, I'm not trying to be dogmatic. Just discussin' stuff. But then, I was the guy who wrote a string quartet in 13/8 for my first theory final. thankfully I had the professor who taught jazz that time; the other music professor, who I had next class, was not amused with my parallel tritones and preference for Crumb and Wagner over Mozart).

Music is awesome.

[toddzilla]

17. i'll listen to anything and play anything once..

but i have to be honest, i'm not into dissonance or really odd stuff. ornette coleman is a mystery to me.. i'm not a rule worshipper by any means, but a song has to have some type of continuity for me or i just get annoyed.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. Understandable

And I respect your need for a melody and a song that goes somewhere.

I mean, it's not like you're a Kenny G worshipper, so I know you can be trusted. :-) We might choose somewhat different music, but at least it's all music.

[toddzilla]

19. mwahaha!! keeny g!!

no, i have relatively good taste, if somewhat conventional. one of my favorite bluesmen is robben ford, who played with miles davis quite a bit from what i understand. his concepts are hard to get because it stresses unconventional scales like the half-tone/whole-tone. That stuff is very difficult to grasp if you've been educated in a pattern philosophy as it relates to guitar. It's one of the reasons i'm picking up piano-to free up my pattern-based thinking somewhat and stretch past it.

i recently lost my job that was preventing me from playing more than an hour or two a week, so i'm pumped to get back to playing. I was hoping to cut a disc this past summer, but work prevented me from doing it, so i'll wait till spring when i get my chops back and cut a 4-5 song little demo deal.

[Rabrrrrrr]

20. I think you have good taste

and learning piano will definitely help.

Not sure what the "pattern" method means, but I think I can imagine it. Always good to understand more the music itself than a pattern, or a finger placement chart.

And don't be afraid to turn up the distortion, go for infinite sustain, and make good use of the whammy bar.

[toddzilla]

21. oh yeah, it's what i love about guitar so much..

especially playing a quality tube amp. i can go from clean to mean in a split second. not a whammy fan though, at least not on my strat. Maybe i'll pick up another ibanez shred machine in the future that is suited for that.

What i'm referring to with the "pattern" method is many guitarists end up stuck in "boxes" that they are unable to break out of and compose all their phrases and solos from within them, never really getting complete command of the fretboard. i certainly have my favorite positions, but could use a little more variety as well.

[Rabrrrrrr]

23. Have you studied Zappa?

And again I'm not trying to be arrogant, just curious. He was a guitarist who understand the whole rand of tonalities and atonilities and never seemed to be stuck in any kind of tonal or rhythmic box when playing.

Tube amps - whether for guitar or for stereo - have such an amazing sound, and be damned anyone who says "transistor amps are just as good". Screw it - they aren't. Transistor amps also have an amazing sound, quite honestly as good as tube amps, BUT NOT THE SAME.

Marshall stacks, baby! That's where it's at.

And lastly, IMO, strats are the ultimate whammy bar guitar.

[toddzilla]

25. zappa's a little "out there" for me

although i did play joe's garage earlier this year (learned it on stage!!) I'm a steve vai fan though, and i can hear some of frank's wierdness, especially in flex-able. i'll probably end up working with some of it eventually, but it's not where i'm at currently.

it's funny, because i was one of the first few people within my circle of musicians that bought one of the first few "modelling" amps from line6. sounds pretty good by itself, sounds like a pile of crap when you put it next to a live drummer and a PA. i actually tried playing through a head version plugged into a 4x12 this past week and didn't make it through one song before i switched to a 4x10 tube combo.


my strat doesn't like to stay in tune when i get nuts with the whammy, i rarely used it when i had it set up that way. Now it's blocked with 5 heavy springs on it, if i pop a string i can keep playing and not sound like crap until the end of the song.



i'm going to see gary hoey next week.. first time he's been through here when i can catch his show.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Kenny G! Yuck!

All that technique and no ear for music and no imagination. What a shame!
The Professor

[Rabrrrrrr]

35. Yes - he has amazing tone,

and great control over the saxamahoozit, but he does nothing interesting with it. It's like getting someone a nice set of copper cookware and all they do is boil hotdogs with it.

[toddzilla]

45. LOL!!

It's like getting someone a nice set of copper cookware and all they do is boil hotdogs with it.
*********

that's classic!

[JM]

43. Odd meters: I wrote a tune for...

...my Senior Recital that was a Jazz/Funk thing that was actually the second best tune of the set.

4/4 9/8 4/4 9/8
4/4 9/8 4/4 9/8
4/4 9/8 4/4 9/8
4/4 9/8 4/4 9/8
3/8 3/8 3/8 5/8

The a 4/4 bridge and into the solos. It came out pretty cool. Two trumpets, two tenor sax, trombone and bari sax, and a three piece rythm section.

I also played Satin Doll arranged as a waltz, and Body and Soul arranged with a Coltrane substitution over the bridge. People's eyes really opened...

JM

[DinkyDem]

6. Dorian already has Pentatonic inherently in it

and with the tritone it sounds like fairly standard jazz.

[toddzilla]

7. I'm aware of that..

but dorian doesn't always lend itself to a song, so i consider them separate. Of course, you can play pentatonics over just about any damn thing,although it gets mighty boring without some added spice.

[toddzilla]

8. edited thread title to change order..

semantics.. shemantics!

[DinkyDem]

10. You can't play Pentatonic

over anything with a major 3rd or leading tone.
Unless you are transposing your Pentatonic scale to a relative minor tonality.

[toddzilla]

12. uhh..

dorian and pentatonic are both minor scales containing the flat 3rd.

minor over major,minor over minor, major over major. unless you're talking passing tones or miles davis, then it's anyones game.:silly:

[DinkyDem]

26. That is why

I said MAJOR 3rd. You cannot play Pentatonic over a MAJOR MODE (Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian).

Playing Pentatonic over Dorian, Aeolian, or Phrygian is just fine.

[Rabrrrrrr]

13. Sure you can

there are no rules.

Unless you mean "You can't do it while remaining in key" or something like that, but then, who cares? If it sounds good, go for it. And for some, it sounds good. Lots of added tension. I could imagine many a bitchin' solo taking advantage of it.

Ives often has the orchestra split into sections playing in different keys. Sounds great!

[toddzilla]

15. hence my passing tone comment..

while i'm a bluesman, and certainly have a serious command of the pentatonic scale, i veer off regularly unless i'm teaching or showing someone something. I hate it when people ask me what scale i was using during a solo.. i'm always like.. uhhh.. a bunch of ones i know, and some i dont!!

:freak:

[DinkyDem]

27. Well, sure, but

you'll want to stick with key signatures one relative step in either direction in your circle of 5ths. And you'll want to use some strategery when sounding your semitones.

[toddzilla]

28. not to sound rude..

I'm not a beginning musician, and i do play very well, and am aware of theory on a level that allows me to understand what i'm playing, why it sounds good, and what i can get away with. I do get annoyed when i tell people that i'm primarily a blues player, it seems to turn some light on that says i do nothing but 5 note scales in open E, and am unable to play any progression with more than 3 chords in it. passing tones are an art form in and of themselves, tension and release, dissonance in the right place for the right amount of time.

damn internet, you can never tell if someone's being helpful, condescending or sarcastic!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. One of the forever frustrations of being on-line

damn internet, you can never tell if someone's being helpful, condescending or sarcastic!!

Even with smilies, sometimes difficult to be sure. One of the curses of communicating via only written text.

[Rabrrrrrr]

31. If on'es gonna be married to Bach and use a circle of fifths, sure

But hey - why not key change on the tritone? Or a flatted third? etc.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. My Sentiments Exactly

I absolutely love atonality. And it sounds best to me when there is a discernable pattern to it. In other words, notes played outside the boundries of the fixed key & harmony sound best when the ear picks up a pattern. Then, it's obvious is being done on purpose, and doesn't sound like a mistake, but like a "stand out" note.

I've taken lots of music theory (jazz training, ya know), and i always chafe at "can't". Apparently, so do you.
The Professor

[toddzilla]

38. here's where it gets interesting..

I don't mind a few outside notes here and there, and you can do anything you want in a song as long as it sounds good. I worked with a guy that was a heavy jazz person and would play the most atonal, dissonant stuff, and he'd be saying "can't you hear how awesome that is??" I'd always reply, no, it sounds like shit dude. You're playing MUSIC, not conducting an experiment in aural dissonance. If you think 3 people playing in different keys and different time signatures that all line up ever 26 and 1/2 bars sounds great, all the more power to you, I'd rather listen to a song. Don't think that i spend my days playing power chords and pentatonics, I just feel that much of what makes up technical music, be it jazz, fusion or whatever, is just masturbation and elitism attempting to be disguised as music. Exercising your technical and theoretical knowledge simply to show you can do it, makes a song just as crappy as not having enough knowledge of technique and theory. When i play out i generally don't play anything ground-breaking as far as theory and technique goes, but i get more of a reaction from an audience tahn more technically advanced player because i know what NOT to play, and choose to make my point heard subtly rather than throw inverted arpeggios over something that calls for a heartfelt sustained bend.

[ProfessorGAC]

41. Here's Where We Differ

I think what you described would be a clustrfuck. The whole band can't do it and have it be consistently musical. The adventuring has to be done by only one or two people at a time, and they have to listening to what the others are doing. So, there is some aural and rhythmic connection.

But, i don't buy that "what not to play" nonsense. It's never a matter of what NOT to play. It's always a matter of picking good spots to play what you're playing. The former is a weak, and illogical artifact from players who were jealous of the superior technical skills of other players. Now, it's crept into the musical lexicon. I don't buy it.

The skill is in being able to do anything and willing to try anything, but doing it when the time is right and moment will work. Sometimes it won't. Other times it will be great. It's being willing to fail that makes it the challenge and makes the great moments more fulfilling. It's not about leaving out or avoiding good ideas! It's about avoiding the bad ones and not overdoing anything.

I could play the piano like Billy Joel or Elton John and everyone would think i was wonderful. But, i would know it was crap and that's not good enough for me. I never heard a Ted Nugent guitar part that i couldn't play, first time through. But, i sure wouldn't want to play like that. It's tedious, boring, and uninteresting.

Personally, i don't give a crap what other people think of my playing. Oh, i hope that they like it! But, if they don't, that's perfectly ok too. I play for me!

Then, by extension, for others. And if my sensibilities are too much for them, tough. I'm not playing for people who don't like it. I'm playing for the ones who do. And if i take my playing out to the edge of the envelope to express myself, some will like it, some won't.

I can live with that.
The Professor

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. Aye, it comes down to the relation with the audience

Is one going to market one's music to the audience?

Or is one going to play one's music and let the audience build around it, assuming that it ever does?

I prefer the latter.

Not that the former always means playing tonally, and the latter always means a combo playing all in different time signatures all the time. There are some in the atonal world who are playing to their audience, too. But generally, the less challenging the music, the more likely it is music beign written for a specific audience, as opposed to the musician doing the music they want to do and hoping an audience will build from it.

[toddzilla]

44. i understand what you're saying..

However, it's just semantics really. when you have a bag of tricks as far as what you can and can't do, you are always choosing not to play something over playing something else. And i agree to a point that much of what I said could be falsely misinterpreted as rationalization to mask lack of technical skill. I've put my time in on the metronome, and found that during the period of my playing that i was able to really let go with insane flurries of notes, and burn through modes without any worries about getting "lost" on the fretboard, i just didn't care for how i sounded. Much of this is simply musical preference, and can't really be effectively argued one way or another. everyone has their own style, without it music would be boring beyond words and all sound like top 40 radio. I don't suggest that i alter my playing style to fit what people would consider pleasing, just that my tastes run closer to mainstream than others. If my playing veers off that course and i still like it, i keep doing it regardless of who likes it or not. And if you never try anything you aren't capable of doing, you will never grow as an artist. I have always stressed this in my teaching, " to sound really good, you must first sound really bad". Ted nugent is a simpleton that has command of a few scales but is a one-trick pony. I like stranglehold, but he's not in any way an influence on my playing. I think we are more in line philosophically here than we are in musical taste.

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. I hate "can't" in all aspects of my life

Causes some problems with authorities, but what the hell. :-)

Nothing exciting ever got done by staying within the rules. There'd be no blues or jazz. There'd also be no cooked food, no pyramids, and no assembly line manufacturing.

[TrogL]

47. Many chants are dorian

Barrie Cabena (Canadian organist - he sat on my organ final) wrote a Mass in the Dorian mode that I use a lot.

[TacticalPeek]

16. Just flat that 9th.

And pull the beret down.

B-)

[Ellen Forradalom]

22. I prefer my pentatonic with gin.

On the rocks.

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. Five gin and tonics coming right up!

With freshly cut limes, BTW.

Drink 'em quick before the ice melts!!!

[TrogL]

29. the chant last week was in mixolydian mode

wierd.

I had to go into all these kewl jazz chords and wholetone stuff for the accompaniment to make sense.

[Ellen Forradalom]

46. I know him...Sir Mixolydian...

..he did that rap hit 'Baby Got Flat', right?

[PVnRT]

32. I call it

"Lick My Love Pump" :evilgrin:

[Le Taz Hot]

33. What's to discuss?

Sounds like jazz to me? B-)

Taz<-----Recovering musicologist. ;-)

On Edit: Play with the Locrian for awhile -- VERY interesting results.

[regularguy]

36. I flat my fifth so much that it sounds like folk music to me anymore.

.

[Character Assassin]

39. Locrian or nothing, bay-bee.

Oh, well, ok, Phrygian is good as well.

[leftofthedial]

48. damned guitar players

whatever you do, be sure to turn it up to 11

[toddzilla]

49. damned piano players..

I've always thought it was unfair that you find pianos so often out in public and pianists can sit down and show off their mad skills, while most other musicians are left with nothing!! how often do you walk through a hotel lobby and see a cello or a drum set sitting there? :silly:

[TrogL]

50. sing

You're carrying your instrument with you.

However, most people singing in public are either insane or incompetent.

[toddzilla]

51. i wouldn't sit down with a bassoon and try to play it..

No more than i would start singing without really being proficient at it. It's on my list of things to learn, but i've heard so many bad singers, that i don't want to add to the misery of others.

[Rabrrrrrr]

52. Go with the dijeradoo - very few people will know whether

you are playing it correctly or not. :-)

[no name no slogan]

53. Fucking jazzoids

Everybody knows that Jazz died the day Miles "crossed over". Get on the bandwagon, dudes, teeny-pop is what's happenin!!!!!!!!!!!

(I'm kidding of course)