In danger of losing my liberal creds over this "Christmas Fund" feature

[OldSoldier]

It's a standard of every newspaper in America.

At the holiday season, hundreds if not thousands of people need help, and the newspaper takes the lead in coordinating the funds that will provide for them in this saddest yet happiest of seasons.

And then they pull this out: Today we're introduced to "Mary" (which is not the name the paper gave her and that's not the name Mary's mother gave her), who seeks some toys and clothes for the children, and a nice Christmas dinner.

Okay, no problem so far, until you get to the reason Mary's down on her luck: she has been unemployed ever since the supermarket where she worked as a cashier closed five years ago.

(At this point you're sounding off with a Thread-Locking Phrase...)

It sounds to me like Mary doesn't need toys and clothes for the children and a nice Christmas dinner. Mary needs a trip to the beauty parlor, a lipstick, a pair of decent shoes, a polo shirt and slacks, and a ride to the local Food Lion so she can get herself another job. Cashiering in a supermarket isn't much of a job, but if you can't get another entry-level job five years after you're dumped out of your old one, the problem isn't the economy. We have the kind of jobs Mary lost five years ago through no fault of her own in abundance here--the convenience stores even offer sign-on bonuses. We have public transportation. We have the means for anyone who wants to scan and bag groceries to do so.

I know that liberals are supposed to be filled with compassion for the unemployed and dittoheads are supposed to think Mary's a lazy bum...but in this case I'm going to have to lay down the liberal lance just for a moment because someone whose job running a grocery scanner disappeared and who hasn't found another similar job in five years really is a lazy bum.

[geniph]

1. Don't worry, I'm worse than you are

because I look at the one who has three small kids, hasn't had a job in four years, and is pregnant, and wonder why they're having more children they can't support?

[LincolnMcGrath]

10. Don`t have kids ya can`t pay for

Where have I heard that before?

[thom1102]

14. Sad to say, I agree with this point of view...

Does that make me less than liberal?

[Missy Vixen]

21. Sign me up, too

>because I look at the one who has three small kids, hasn't had a job in four years, and is pregnant, and wonder why they're having more children they can't support?<

Me! Me! Pick me!

This stuff works my last nerve. Contrary to popular belief (and the negative reinforcement of families like the McCaugheys of "Seven from Heaven,) it is not up to us to continuously support those who have multiple children that they can ill afford. I'm not talking one-two-three kids, or a family swamped in medical bills due to catastrophic illness.

If this makes me less than a liberal, so be it.

Flame on.

Julie

[SOteric]

22. I won't say it makes any of you less than liberal, -but

I think it very much depends on the circumstance, and circumstance is something we don't know in this instance.

OldSoldier did not supply us a link to the article in question.

He started this post which he felt would be inflammatory and apparently hasn't returned to it.

I think it's an intriguing lesson in social dynamic that the thread has evolved in a couple of places to discussions which only bear peripherally on the topic introduced.

We have no way to know whether the woman referenced has continued to produce children after she became unemployed. She lost her job 5 years ago. If her children are 7, 6 and 5 years of age, then she deserves our sympathy, - but if her children are 5, 4, and 2 she does not?

Regardless of whether she has continued to have children, she really shouldn't be asked to make a choice NOW between giving them up and getting a job. And the economics of employment at the lowest levels vs. childcare are really the crux of this issue.

Whether she should have had the children she has is a moot point we haven't even sufficient details to moot effectively. She has children. She has no job. How can she make the economics of a low-wage job work to support herself AND the children she already has? THAT is a liberal issue.

[OldSoldier]

33. Actually, I haven't had tome to return to it

And I didn't think it inflammatory. Quite the opposite, in fact.

The paper doesn't keep their Christmas Fund stories up more than a day, but this one's good: http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=local&Story=6067353

A mother getting ready to go back to community college? I sent this one some cash. That's a decent cause.

I dug out yesterday's newspaper (yes, I still read newspapers printed on paper), and this is what I know:

* Two children. They're six and seven.
* Laid off from a Kroger supermarket that closed five years ago. Worked as a cashier.
* Has not acquired employment since Kroger pulled out of Fayetteville.

From the local economy, this is what I know:

* Fayetteville's economy is largely retail-based. We have very few large employers who are not retail--Kelly-Springfield Tires, DuPont, MJ Soffe, Black and Decker are the big four.
* Our retail sector hires continuously.
* A cashier from one retail establishment can easily acquire employment as a cashier at another one, assuming that the person was not terminated for cause and this doesn't seem to be the case.

How do you make the economics of a low-wage job work to support herself and the children she already has? Enter the Fayetteville Housing Authority, which is where she lives. You'd call them the Projects. The police substations in each FHA area have cut down crime to an acceptable level and the houses are decent. Not mansions, but decent. Rent control, coupled with AFDC and Medicaid, goes a long way toward making the jobs we have economically feasible.

Last year, the How Bad Do You Want To Be A Liberal? case was of a woman who worked at a convenience store that closed four years ago and couldn't get another job. If anything, it's easier to get a job in a Fayetteville convenience store than at any other kind, since the number of people who are willing to work nights at one is lower. (I guess it has something to do with holdups, another growth industry here.)

And in either case, you have to sit back and think "when your low-wage employer goes back north, there are twenty more employers just like them (not counting Wal-Mart) screaming for workers, and these people have been unemployed four or five years, there's something wrong here." Like the protagonists in these tales have lead-in-ass disease.

[Drifter]

2. I will agree ...

As an engineer, if I were to be without work for 5 years, I would be more than willing to bag groceries.

Then again, If 5 years passed without a job, I would not have a house. Sometime you gotta do what you gotta do, even if it means taking a job that is not ideal.

Cheers
Drifter

[LincolnMcGrath]

3. Maybe Mary has a mental illness?

With no ins. to pay for her treatment? Can a sick person be a lazy bum? Have you been w/out health ins ever?

[OldSoldier]

35. Mary has better access to mental health resources than I do

Our Department of Social Services offers mental health care (with ten psychiatrists, six psychologists and a few allied health types) to low-income residents of the county. They're the best head-shrinkers in town and, in Mary's case, she'd get in for free because of the sliding fee scale they use.

If you're not a low-income resident of the county, there are four private practices you can use. Fayetteville's not a mecca for private-practice mental health providers.

[SOteric]

4. It's not an either/or type of proposition.

Yes, we have compassion for people who've been adversely affected by government and economic policies. We have compassion for people who's retirement plans were wiped out in corporate scandals and are required to work like a dog inspite of advanced age.

But saying that we have compassion in general is different than saying we have compassion in specific. There may, for all we know, have been an Enron employee whose only use for his pension would have been to cash it in early to fund large drug purchases to a South American cartel which he in turn sold to school children. Should I pity him in the specific only because I pity them in general? Notsomuch.

I won't say that you're not a liberal because on the face of it, these facts seem to support your proposition. But I will point out that we're going from sparse detail. Perhaps "Mary" has other challenges not reported in the article. Perhaps she learning disabled, suffers a physical impediment which dictates the hours she can work, or perhaps she just cannot stretch her Welfare and food stamp payments far enough to afford the childcare she'd need to accept another entry-level position.

I think if I were faced with losing my (hypothetical, folks here know I don't have children) children or taking another low-wage job which required me to leave them unattended for hours a day, I'd stay on the public dole, too. And it shouldn't have to be that way.

[nini]

5. Being liberal means to help those that need it..

.. not to enable those who don't want to help themselves.

[alwynsw]

26. Best thought yet!

...but I'm still reading...

[GOPFighter]

6. Hmmmm....

On one hand a trip to "the beauty parlor, lipstick, a pair of decent shoes, a polo shirt and slacks" might do wonders for "Mary's" job prospects. So might intangibles like a shot of confidence and hope. But how do you give her that in one fell swoop?

Unless you know "Mary" personally, you probably don't know WHY she hasn't had a job in 5 years. Does she have a car, does she live on a bus route? Maybe transportation is a big limiting factor. Maybe it's a lack of affordable (or reliable) child care. Maybe she's demoralized and overwhelmed by life.

It annoys me to find healthy (physically and mentally), solidly employed, people who have a personal safety net of family and friends and assume everyone else has the same advantages. "Mary" may be lazy, but more likely she's emotionally or physically incapable of finding a job or maybe there are other limitations like those I described above.

And does it really matter when it comes to helping providing a fellow human being, and her children (especially her children), with a pleasant Christmas?

[LincolnMcGrath]

9. You and SOteric said it the

way I would If I could get lil Linc to take a nap!!

Great posts from the both of you! :yourock:

[SOteric]

7. Okay, let me try this again, READ Up! -because I see from your post

that "Mary" does have children.

So, - do you have any idea what childcare costs in your area? Do you know what costs are covered by Welfare? Do you know what "Mary's" rent is? How much it costs her to feed and keep her family at a reasonable level?

I ask, because most entry level jobs don't support the income necessary to arrange childcare. They barely support the kind of income necessary to house, feed and cloth a family. If Mary accepts an entry-level position, should she leave her children unattended for hours per day? Does she even have family or friends in any position to help?

Accepting a position at the lowest income levels means Mary forfeits her income from Welfare and must support herself and her family on her own.

If supporting herself means she'd lose custody of her children, I don't blame her one bit for not hustling down to the Piggly Wiggly in a new shirt and lipstick.

[OldSoldier]

38. Here's what I know of this area

There is some cash floating around in the local social-service system; it's not completely broke yet, although I'm certain Bush would be happy to help it along.

Our Department of Social Services handles the following items:

sliding-fee childcare
Medicaid, AFDC, WIC, etc., enrollment
mental health care
budgeting assistance

The CARE Clinic on Robeson Street takes care of most of Mary's contemporaries' medical needs. It was set up by Catholic Social Ministries to care for the working poor. It's a good clinic. It's nondenominational. And it accepts Medicaid.

If Mary's on WIC, which is more likely than AFDC, there are hundreds of little "WIC stores" popping up all over the place. These are tiny grocery stores that only accept WIC and only have WIC-approved items. The economics of this business escapes me, but they do a land-office business so there must be profit in it.

The Fayetteville Housing Authority works with DSS to ensure housing is available to people with children. It's another sliding-fee system.

Add to that the free bus passes FHA people are issued.

All of this is to answer the most pressing problem in our county: the realization that we are a retail economy and without quite a bit of help, most of the people who live here would starve.

Unlike in most areas, Mary can make it on a retail salary in Fayetteville. Not comfortably, mind you; there would be no new Ford in Mary's future. But it's possible to do it.

So! Given all the help Mary receives in this area, why the hell isn't she working?

[BiggJawn]

8. If I hadn't had a job in 5 years, I'd be living under a bridge.

Such is the lot in life of men without children living with them. Hell, even if I DID have kids, CPS would take them away from me so they wouldn't have to live under the bridge with me.

Stil, "Mary" has it better than she would under total ReTHUG rule.

[toddzilla]

11. Much more info is needed..

You can't judge a person's life situation based on a cursory article in the newspaper, which is by default designed to be more entertaining than informative. Maybe mary isn't very intelligent? Who knows what types of industry is in the area?


Far too many variables to pass judgement on "mary" here. That being said, 5 years is a very, very long time to be without work. Assuming she isn't a complete imbecile, you can finish an associate's degree in 5 years going to a few classes a week for a pittance at a community college, with all being paid for through grants and loans.

[Skittles]

12. hey BiggJawn

what is the lot of life of WOMEN without children living with them. I do believe ladies have been known to end up under bridges.

[REP]

20. Women Without Children Seldom Get Help

The homeles shelters around here are for women with children; apparently, those without children can go pound sand.

When I was much younger and desperately poor, I called Social Services to see if there was any help for me. Since I wasn't pregnant and had no children, there wasn't any. If, however, I had been pregnant, a whole spectrum of aid was available. I asked the woman I was talking to how smart it'd be for me to have a kid when I could barely take care of myself. She agreed that the system was seriously fucked up in that regard. I was fortunate enough to get out of that hole without help, but I wonder how many young women are having children they are ill-prepared to have because they see no other way out.

It may be hard for women with children, but it can be even harder for those without.

[beyurslf]

13. An entry level job in a grocery store

may pay the childcare costs involved but thats about it (depending on how old the children are).

And how does one survive 5 years with no job? Even with public assistance?

[thom1102]

16. NPR did an interview with a woman in the DC area who is a

Cashier at a local grocery store chain. This was in response to the recent strike in SoCAL. The woman make $17.88/hour and has full medical benefits provided entirely by the company. That equates to a $37k/year job, with benefits, before overtime. That is not exactly chump change. She was extolling the benefits of union protection at her job, and comparing it to what workers at non-union Wal-Mart are making. Cashier at a supermarket is one of the few jobs available to non college educated people in this country that you can still make a decent living at.

[LincolnMcGrath]

17. Union grocers are few and far between

[LincolnMcGrath]

18. P.S. $37000.00 might not be much above "chump change"

in her neck of DC.

[thom1102]

19. She was saying how happy she was to have a job where she could

send her two children to college as a single mother and not have gone to college herself, so while she may nit be living high on the hog, she seemed to be doing ok.

I think that the real issue here is the disappearance of decent wage jobs for non college educated people. The only opportunities available to them are the union jobs, which are mostly concentrated in the shrinking manufacturing sector, and unless unions can make some inroads into the retail and service sectors, no one in this country is going to be able to afford to raise a family without having a college education. And just the other day, there was a post on DU showing the results of the latest census data indicating that only 25% of the public over 25 y/o has a 4 year college degree or better. So what is going to happen to the other 75%?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

24. In NY or Boston Metro, you could never survive on that wage

even with benefits. There are no union grocery stores in New England. Most low-wage work does not provide a livable wage or child care. The average rent for a one-bedroom is $1500-$1800 near public transportation here in Boston. And a one-bedroom is too small for a family.

[thom1102]

25. Ok, now that just isn't true...

at least about metro NYC. Yes you can't live in Manhattan on $37k, but in Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx, you can afford an apartment (especially with rent control), and I am sure that there are sections of Boston or its immediate suburbs, where someone making $37k per year can live. And Public transportation goes beyond the T and the Subway: there are buses as well.

Look, I am not saying that it is easy. All I was doing was pointing out an interesting article I had heard on NPR that related to this situation. I am gay, and not a parent, so I can't speak from a position of experience, but you can't tell me that there aren't people in these cities who are single mother's making less than $37k per year and aren't making it, maybe not comfortably, but they are making it. Does that meant that I don't think we should be doing things as a society to help these people? Absolutely not. We need Housing subsidies, child care subsidies, mass transit passes, and to more aggressively pursue deadbeat dads to start.

[LincolnMcGrath]

27. The "Deadbeat Dad" myth

is sooo nineteen ninties.

[thom1102]

34. Not true...

My friend is divorced and has two children, and her ex doesn't help at all, and she has to keep going after him for child support and alimony. I am sure she is the rule rather than the exception.

[LincolnMcGrath]

41. "I am sure she is the rule rather than the exception"

Don`t let the facts trip you up!

[RobinA]

29. I Think the "Deadbeat Dad"

phenomenon is more a middle class thing. In my line of work, the Dad's aren't any better at making a living than the Moms. And when they are they usually pay up.

[LincolnMcGrath]

32. True blue deadbeat dads

who have never paid a nickle, or are many months/years behind are rare.

According to the Government Accounting Office, only 10 percent of fathers in arrears on child support are resisting paying. The vast majority, because of unemployment, ill health or incarceration, cannot pay.



"Blaming the poverty of mothers on fathers who are as much its victim is not just stupid, but avoidance. This is a society creating scapegoats rather than accepting responsibility for the poverty its own processes create."
Dr. Richard Weiss

[Kathy in Cambridge]

31. Try raising two kids by yourself on $40K a year in Boston

like my sister-in-law. Very few can make ends meet without public assistance. Day care costs $1,000 month, and, if you qualify, some of it is subsidized. Most low-wage work-even the kind that brings you up to $40K a year with overtime-doesn't offer benefits. Kids grow and need new clothes. An expose on a local news show recently showed Boston as having the highest food prices in the country. Car insurance rates are also among the highest in the country (as our the costs for registering your car).

Rent control was eliminated on a state ballot in 1995. The rents in Boston are outrageous. There are less expensive neighborhoods-Dorchester for example-but even there you're looking at $1200 for a two-bedroom. We own rental property and know what the market rates are. We just don't charge them.

BTW Hartford-like Springfield and Holyoke-is very cheap by comparison to Eastern Mass.

[thom1102]

36. I am well aware of the rents in Boston...

My cousin and an ex lives there, and my partner and I we considering relocating there. My point is that people who don't make a lot of money are living there currently, so people are making it.

[Kamika]

15. does it say if she was handicapped or something?

I mean lets say shes a 50 yr old handicaped person.. in that case I could understand her better.. Othervise i agree with you

[Deja Q]

23. You sure? I don't know her situation, so I'm not going to judge...

Where's her list of places she's tried applying for?

I apply to retail/grocery stores all the time for a second income. Yes, all the stores have big "HELP WANTED" signs on the front and often inside as well. Most of them seem to have those psychological profile tests. Places seem to rely more on them than a person's job performance history, even if you're a public employee. Strangely enough, I seem to fail these tests.

And, yes, I couldn't get an available shift at my local grocer's either. And they had no psychological test but had lots of evening and 3rd shift openings.

Quite frankly, if/when I lose my job, I'm pretty positive I won't be able to get one because of their test.

Now maybe you ARE right and she is lazy.

I don't know her situation, so I'm not going to judge.

So say what you want. No stereotype is 100% consistent.

[RobinA]

28. I Work With Needy People

There are a lot of reasons why the people I work with, many of them sound a lot like Mary, do not have jobs.

A big one is child care. It is expensive when you can get it. A minimum wage job will not pay for it. There is some subsidized day care, but there's a waiting list. There is no affordable day care at all for older kids who aren't old enough to be on their own.

Another one is disability. The rate of disability among the poor is quite high. And by disability I don't necesssarily mean in a wheel chair. Many minimum wage job are quite physically demanding - lifting, standing for long hours.

Intelligence. People with below average intelligence, for whatever reason, are overrepresented among the poor. There aren't a lot of jobs for people who aren't the quickest. I have people who would not be able to ring a register fast enough to even get a job at a supermarket or convenience store. Nor deal with customer problems.

Mental Health - Some people cannot keep it together enough to do what they are supposed to do for 8 hours a day, five days a week. They just don't work and play well with others for various reasons.

Pure laziness - Yup, some people would rather scrape by with an unpaid electric bill and wonder where the next pack of cigarattes is coming from than get a freakin' job. And yeah, some of them have a lot of kids with another one the way.

Ironically, many low wage, low skill jobs that are paid an "anybody can do it" wage are really quite demanding. I worked in fast food as my first job. I don't have mental health problems, physical problems, or trouble getting along with people. However, at McDonalds, between the whining customers and the nasty co-oworkers, it was the worst job I ever had, and that includes a job in retail, a job working with lawyers, and a job in social services.

We tell the often most ineffective, disabled members of our society (among people who function at all) to go get a job dealing with nasty people who do nothing but complain, standing on their feet all day, and operating complex machines where speed and accuracy are the most important thing, and then wonder why they fail in huge numbers.

Don't have a answer, it's just interesting.

And no, it's not unliberal to want to smack some people upside the head for their thoughtless actions.

[LincolnMcGrath]

30. Great thoughts!

Do you think any or most of the "Pure laziness" group might actually belong in the "Mental Health" group?

[RobinA]

39. Maybe, but....

I'm pretty liberal with the mental health characterization. There are just people who would rather scrape by than get off their butts. Part of it is that they don't know there's a different way. They were probably raised on the edge and that's just the way they think things have to be. They never learned the discipline it takes to get up every day and go to a job that isn't very fun.

[Blade]

37. No...don't make you less than a liberal...

I feel the same way, my friend. If she didn't get a job for five years, and all she did was work at a till, and she's not injured in any way, shape, or form, then yes, she is a lazy bum and we don't need to feel sorry for her one bit.

[greatauntoftriplets]

40. There is also something called personal responsibility.

Or as I was taught as a kid in Catholic school (although recovering, I still think this was good advice: "God helps those who help themselves."

[LincolnMcGrath]

42. So Sloth is a sin

and not a mental defect/illness?