Anybody here ever read the Silmarillion?

[TXlib]

I've tried slogging through it a few times...

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Anyway, I have a question that is prolly answered therein, and I'm hoping some fellow DUers are geeky enough to have read it cover to cover:

Where were the elves from, and why did they leave Middle Earth again?

[Kellanved]

1. Yes

But it's really just an (boring) ordered summary of the "The Book of Lost Tales".

[TXlib]

3. Your reply is extraordinarily unhelpful.

Channelling Rumsfeld, are we?

:)

[Kellanved]

15. I justed wanted to give you a chance to let the Inspectors back in

...err I mean to read it yourself.

Anyway (slightly inaccurate, I read it a decade or so ago): They were created by Illuvatar and held sleeping in Middle-Earth. When they awoke, they were led west by the Valar, where a place had been prepared for them: Valinor.
Most followed the call (The Noldori, the Teleri,...) , but the Moriquendi (Quendi = Elf) stayed in Middle-Earth ( they are the Wood-Elfs in the LOTR, and the Orcs, twisted in another shape by Morgoth); the Teleri later decided to stay at the coast, as they fell in love with the sea.
The Noldori became fine craftsmen, but Morgoth tainted them and dissent grew. Morgoth then showed his true self (he's Sauron's boss) and stole the Noldori treasure; fleeing back to Middle-Earth.
The Noldori decided to pursue him, but were held back by the Valar; to leave Valinor they stole Teleri ships and slaughtered their crew - thus they were banned from Valinor.

The Elfs in the LOTR are either Teleri (not in the Movies; the guys with the ships in the west), Noldori (Elrond, Galadriel) or Moriquendi(Legolas).

[newyorican]

2. I made it to the 3rd Chapter...

when I was stationed in Iceland under about 12 feet of snow. Everything was going fine but then...zzzzzzzz

Happened everytime. Read over a dozen books between chapters 2 & 3. Figured it wasn't meant to be and dropped it there...

[Wickerman]

4. Driving cross country once

I had it on books on CD. When I hit Kansas and chapter 4 I realised that listening to a damn reference book was of no help in keeping me awake. If the question you asked was in those three chapters I must have dozed during that bit. :shrug:

[Loonman]

5. Silmarillion is more of a reference book

Than anything else.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

6. The Elves are from Valinor, the blessed land.

Basically they left because Sauron's boss Morgoth had attacked Valinor and stole the Silmarils, which are beautiful jewels that capture the lights of the two great trees (which I think Morgoth ruined) and are coveted by all (like the ring - Tolkien likes to recycle plots). Feanor, creator of the Silmarils vows vengeance, and when the other Elves won't help him return his people to Middle Earth to fight Morgoth, he attacks them. This upsets the other elves, naturally, who follow Feanor and his nasty brood to Middle Earth in order to revenge themselves on both Feanor and Morgoth. The Valar (ruling deities of Middle Earth) are pissed off at the elves for their intemperate behaviour and banish them from Valinor until they learn to make nice in the promised land.
Eventually Morgoth gets a kicking (after having dealt with Feanor - keep up!) and the Elves are allowed to return. Many stay in Middle Earth, but over the years, as men become predominant, they too decide to leave for Avalon (oops, sorry - Valinor), thus leaving Middle Earth to become our world.
Yes. I know way too much Tolkien trivia.

[ProfessorPlum]

10. I think it was Ungoliant in spider form

(ancestor of Shelob) who ruined the trees. Ungoliant and Morgoth were thick.


Love that Tolkein trivia.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

12. Yeah, I think Morgoth had Ungoliant 'defoul' the trees.

So I guess she pissed on them, right? Kind of like Morgoth's pet Rottweiler.

[ProfessorPlum]

16. I think she broke them

and drank their sap and left them for dead. Rotten spider!

[lazarus]

22. venom

She gained power as she consumed light. In the end, she was more powerful than Morgoth for a brief time.

Legend has it she finally consumed herself in extreme hunger.

[JCMach1]

26. Yep, sucked 'em dry

only left enough life to make the sun and the moon after Yavanna poured forth her entire strength.

[TXlib]

14. Thanks! Great answer! (nt)

[truthspeaker]

17. nice summary!

Yes, Morgoth destroyed the great trees that gave light to Valinor before the sun and moon were created. He killed one with his spear and Ungoliant, a giant demon-spider who fed on light and excreted darkness, sucked up the light from the other. Shelob in RotK is a descendant of Ungoliant - that's why the pass is called Cirith Ungol.

Feanor left Valinor to get vengeance on Morgoth, but also because the Valinor wanted to use the Silmarills to restore light and life to the trees. Feanor had too much pride in his creation to let that happen. This is a common Tolkien theme - the wisest and most powerful are corrupted by their own pride and lack of humility. Morgoth was the most powerful of the Valar but turned evil because he wanted lordship over Middle Earth for himself. Feanor was the most skilled of the elves; the Numenoreans (descended from Elrond's brother Elros - Arwen is actually Aragorn's first cousin a hundred or so times removed) were the most blessed of men, but fell when they became jealous of Elvish immortality. That's why hobbits had to destroy the Ring; they are so insignificant and ordinary they were the least likely to be tempted by great power.

I really like Tolkien, if you can't tell.

[JCMach1]

29. Arwen and Aragorn are actually related....

MANY times removed...

Elrond and Elros were brothers....

Elros chose humanity and went to Numenor.

[sexybomber]

36. Wait, wasn't there another level of gods?

I thought it went something like this:

Creator Dude
7 or so uber-gods (Morgoth is here, there's like some huge dude who lives in the water, the sun and the moon maybe...)
Valar (good guys)
Maiar (Sauron is here)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

43. That's your alpha-vala. Manwe, Melkor etc.

[sexybomber]

46. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

*googles for "Ainulindale"*

Ahhhhhh, now I get it. The Ainur are the first seven Valar, and Melkor (aka Morgoth) is one of those guys.

[lazarus]

48. Actually

Ainur is the race that contains both Valar and Maiar. There were 15 Valar: Melkor, and then 7 Valar and 7 Valier (womenfolk gods). The Maiar were uncounted, and ranged in power from Sauron, who was nearly a Valar himself, down to your balrogs, etc.

There's some supposition that the great Eagles were Maiar, as well, particularly Thorondor, the Lord of the Eagles, who could take on Dragons. Dragons may well have been Maiar as well.

[sexybomber]

50. ohhhhhhh

Well that clears that up!

[lazarus]

52. Actually

There are 8 sort of SuperValar. They're called the Aratar.

Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Varda, Yavanna, and Nienna.

No, not from memory. I always leave off Nienna and Mandos from the list of Aratar for some reason.

The other six Valar are Tulkas, Lorien, Este, Vaire, Vana, and Nessa. :D

[sexybomber]

54. This just gets more confusing by the second.

I guess I was right all along, I just got the terms confused, because now I remember the rest of the story.

Ulmo's the one who lives in the water. There was a book with all this great art inspired by Tolkien's work, and I remember a painting of Ulmo specifically because he looked like a cross between an elf and a fish.

[lazarus]

57. Yup

Ulmo's the water dude. Sort of like Poseidon. One could draw a lot of comparisons between each Valar and a Greek/Roman equivalent, such as Aule/Vulcan and Ulmo/Neptune.

Just remember it like this. The whole group of 'em is called Ainur. The Ainur are split into the Valar (gods) and Maiar (angels/demigods).

The Valar are "ranked" in order, with 8 of the 14 being much more powerful, the Aratar.

Next we can discuss the various bloodlines of the Elven houses. :evilgrin:

[cspiguy]

7. It's deep. It's pre-lord of the rings. It is a collection of stories.

Try Turin Turambar or better yet, Beren and Luthien. These are great tales told in the manner of the icelandic or finnish sagas. Great stuff.

[dae]

8. I thought I was the only one who couldn't read it, try as I might. THANK

YOU, TXlib for opening this thread and setting me free.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

11. Naw, it's like reading an Elvish White Pages.

Fingwe was the blessed father of Ingwe who begat Yngwie who invented bad Swedish speed metal. Repeat (x400)

On edit - I'm being way too harsh, it's actually a really good read, if you can keep up, and your eyes don't glaze over.

[Malikshah]

19. Great!!!

A spew-worthy post! Loved it.

I have it on CD and use it to keep me going in the car...for some reason, my car is in lust with phone poles and trees....

[Screaming Lord Byron]

23. Yeah, I was being pretty cheeky.

I could do without the whole 'Song of the Ainur' section at the start though.

[Kellanved]

49. The stories are better in the "Book of Lost Tales"

, but they're not consistent and very disjointed in it.

[truthspeaker]

9. yes, and I loved it

...the third time, when I actually started to understand what's going on. I had to keep looking up characters in the index to keep them straight.

The Elves were created in Middle Earth by Eru, the Creator and supreme (or only) deity. They were the "firstborn", the first thinking people created. The Valar, basically lesser gods or angels who helped Eru create Middle Earth and chose to live in it, summoned them to the land of Valinor because they feared Morgoth (a rebel Vala; Tolkien's take on Satan) would corrupt them. Most, but not all, of the elves, crossed the sea to Valinor. Valinor was part of Middle Earth at that time but because the Valar lived there it was "blessed" and pretty much a paradise. The elves lived there a long time and learned a lot of magic, as well as writing and music, from the Vala. Valinor is called Elvenhome, even though the elves originally came from the regular part of Middle Earth. Eventually one of the elf leaders rebelled against the Valar and led a bunch of elves back to Middle Earth.

Later on the Valar hid Valinor from Middle Earth, so only elves can get there. Elves were forgiven for their rebellion and allowed to return to Valinor when they get weary of Middle Earth. That's where the ship at the end of RotK was going.

In Tolkien's world, elves are immortal (they don't die of old age, but can be killed) but are bound to this world. Humans are mortal and not allowed to go to Valinor, but it's implied that they get a greater reward after death than the earthly immortality of elves; humans escape the bounds of the world and (probably) go directly to Eru.

Tolkien based this on the English fairy-tale concept that fairies live in a parallel, magical world that is perilous for humans to visit, and then mixed in his Catholic-based theological ideas.

[TXlib]

18. Thanks! And a follow-up question about elvish immortality

In Tolkien's world, elves are immortal (they don't die of old age, but can be killed) but are bound to this world. Humans are mortal and not allowed to go to Valinor, but it's implied that they get a greater reward after death than the earthly immortality of elves; humans escape the bounds of the world and (probably) go directly to Eru.

So, elves are immortal wrt age, but can be killed. Being "bound to this world", does that mean they have no afterlife as the humans of Tolkien's world, or do they continue on as ghosts or something similar?

[lazarus]

25. They return to Aman/Valinor

Actually, the Halls of Mandos. Sort of a purgatory for elves. Eventually, they can actually reincarnate. Glorfindel is the most famous of these.

The only elf that we're fairly sure won't be coming back until the Final Battle (sort of the Tolkeinian Armageddon/Ragnarok) is Feanor. Too much bloodshed to be expunged, apparently.

But it is just too wearying for them to be around mortals and in mortal lands for more than a few thousand years, apparently. By the same token, mortals can't survive in Aman; the Undying Lands are too powerful.

FWIW, death was considered Eru's gift to Men, but, as usual, Morgoth managed to pervert it into something to be feared. That's another theme constant in Tolkien's work: the way evil corrupts and perverts what is good or neutral.

[TXlib]

30. If mortals can't survive in Aman, then are the hobbits immortal?

What about dwarves?

Are Men the only truly mortal race in Middle Earth?

[lazarus]

34. hobbits and dwarves

Are both mortal as well. Hobbits are basically a branch of Man, and Dwarves are a special case. They were created by Aule, a god, but he didn't have the power to give them Free Will. Eru decided to do so, and there's a lot of debate amongst the Free Peoples as to what exactly happens to them when they die.

[TXlib]

35. So, how could Frodo and Bilbo go with the Elves to Valinor?

[lazarus]

45. they didn't

They sailed West, because they were RingBearers (you have to get into the background stuff on this, apparently Morgoth put a huge amount of his Essence into the earth to corrupt it, which is why things like Rings of Power are so particularly corrupting, but also why their influence can affect things like sailing to the West).

But legend has it they stopped at the Island just off the shore and never were able to actually step foot on the shores of the Undying Lands.

Edit: I finally broke down and did some research. The island is Tol Eressea.

[sexybomber]

51. That sucks!

Did the Ring make Frodo immortal? If so, that would really suck to be stranded on Tol Eressa for eternity while there's a huge party going on just across the channel in Valinor...

[lazarus]

53. Nope

No immortality for him. Remember Bilbo? How he complained of being stretched, like too little butter scraped across too much bread?

He was turning into another Gollum, basically. As would Frodo.

The Ring Bearers were allowed to go to Tol Eressea for healing, basically.

The neatest legend to me is that of Gimli and Legolas, who had the strongest elf/dwarf friendship ever. Legend has it that Legolas got dispensation to take Gimli with him when he passed over the sea, and they were the last two of the Fellowship to leave Middle Earth.

Tolkien was a sucker for a happy ending, it turns out.

The story of Gollum/Smeagol makes me cry, though. That's one of the things Peter Jackson did perfectly in the films, he really brought home the tragedy of Smeagol.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

38. No. Everyone apart from the Elves and spirit (Valar etc) is mortal

Don't make me get into the whole Ar-Pharazon / Numenorean invasion of Valinor stuff, we'll be here all week!

[Kellanved]

28. exactly

Mandos is a Valar caring for the elfish "souls". They can be reincarated or wander Mandos' halls for eternity - some stay away, for they fear Mandos' judgement.

[MissMillie]

13. Ok... call me a geek

This is from "A Tolkein Bestiary" by David Day (New York: Gramercy Books, 1979)

"In the very hour that Varda, the Lady of the Heavens, rekindled the bright Stars above Middle-Earth, the Children of Eru awoke by the Mere of Cuivienen, the "water of awakening." These people were the Quendi, who are called Elves, and when they came into being the first thing they perceived was the light of new Stars. So it is that, of all things, Elves love starlight best and worship Varda, whom they know as Elentan, Queen of the Stars, over all Valar. And further, when the new light entered the eyes of Elves in that awakening moment it was held there, so that ever after in shone from those eyes."


And

"In the First Age of Starlight, after the Fall of Utumno and the defeat of Melkor the Dark Enemy, the Valar called the Elves to the Undying Lands of the West. This was before the Rising of the Sun and the Moon when only the Stars lit Middle-earth, and the Valar wished to protect the Elves from the darkness and the lurking evil that Melkor had left behind. They also wished to have the companionship of these Fair Folk and wanted them to live in the Everlasting Light of the sacred Trees of the Valar in Valnot.

"And so, in the Undying Lands, which lie beyond the seas of the West, the Valar prepared a place named Eldamar, "elvenhome", where it was foretold that in time the Elves would build cities with domes of silver, streets of gold and stairs of crystal. The land would be bountiful with fruit and grain, and the Elves would be happy, resourceful and wealthy. The shores of Eldamar would be strewn with diamonds, opals and pale crystals that the Elves themselves would work for the simply joy of making woundrous objects of beauty."




I bought this book for my son for Christmas. I've been enjoying it very much.

[lazarus]

20. 37 times, I think

That's straight through, doesn't count the number of times I've read just a chapter or two out of it.

I think it's one of the most amazing pieces of literature ever written. The tragedy of the War of the Silmarils, the KinSlaying, the valiant struggle againt Morgoth in the wars of Beleriand, all amazing tales.

As for the elves:

The elves were originally from Middle Earth. They awoke by the shores of Lake Cuivienen (Spelling?). Orome, one of the Valar, was watching for them and enticed most of them to travel west, then cross the ocean to Aman, the land of the Gods. Many elves stayed, however, and became the Moriquendi (Elves who never saw the Light of Aman), while the elves who went were the Valaquendi.

Of the Houses of the elves, the Vanyar, the highest house, stayed in Aman for the rest of time, only leaving for the final battle when the Valar overthrew Morgoth. The Noldor, who were the most given to crafts such as metallurgy and mining, etc., returned to Middle Earth to chase down the Silmarils, three jewels created by Feanor (aka Curufinwe) that contained the the mingled light of the Two Trees that lit the world (a fruit of each became the Sun and Moon, respectively). The Trees were slain by Morgoth and Ungoliant (Ungoliant being a giant spider, the ancestor of Shelob), and the Valar wanted to break the Silmarils to recapture the light and save the trees. Feanor's pride wouldn't allow this, so they took an oath to pursue anyone who ever kept the jewels from them. About this time, Morgoth stole the jewels and headed to Middle Earth.

Wars ensued. Eventually, the elves, being immortal, tire of Middle Earth and return to Aman. The whole history of Middle Earth after the First Age is of the fading of the elves and the ascendancy of Man, the Second Children of Illuvatar. (The dwarves were created by Aule, one of the Valar, and given life by Illuvatar, so they don't fit in quite as well with anybody.)

Here's a neat bit of story telling for you. Feanor's original idea for what to put in the Silmarils was three strands of hair from the most beautiful and powerful female Noldo, Galadriel. She didn't like him, so she spurned his request. That set off the whole Tree fiasco, the War of the Silmarils, the KinSlaying, etc.

That explains why the elves in Lothlorien were so shocked that Gimli asked for, and received, a lock of her hair. Note also that the great falling out of the Dwarves and Elves was over the Nauglarond (IIRC), a great necklace made to hold one of the Silmarils which had been retrieved by Beren and Luthien, the direct ancestors of Aragorn (Strider).

Eventually, that Silmaril was used by Earendil, ancestor of Elrond and Arwen, to break through the spells keeping people out of Aman. He was basically allowed in due to the Silmaril and his heritage; his bloodline was of Elves, Men, and a god (Melian). Earendil and his Silmaril were placed in the heavens where they became a star. The light from that star, which, if you'll recall, is from the original Trees, etc., is the light that Galadriel captured in her Vial that she gave Frodo to light his way in Mordor.

As Samwise said, stories never really end, just the people in them come and go.

FYI, this was all from memory and took about 5 minutes. I probably got one or two things wrong, and left out a HUGE amount of amazing material. I'd give it a try again. Once you get past the Valaquenta, which is the opening book that describes all the gods, and into the Silmarillion proper, you get into some good storytelling again.

Fingolfin's one on one duel with Morgoth before the gates of Angband is something else, as is the fall of Gondolin (which is where Gandalf and Bilbo's swords came from). Gondolin is where you find out that some elves, such as Glorfindel, are able to defeat balrogs in single combat. That had to be a blast to watch.

You've also missed things like the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, or Battle of Unnumbered Tears, which is an amazing tragedy. Just a fantastic book, and now I'm going to go read it again.

:-)

[ProfessorPlum]

21. I've read it three times,

many years in between each reading. The first time I read it as a teenager and didn't enjoy it as much. The last time was a year and a half ago, and I understood it much better, grasped it, but liked it less. Though there are a lot of brave deads, most of the plots are driven by otherwise good folks killing each other to steal precious things from each other. (various McGuffins, including the silmarills). After a while, you get kind of sick of the really foolish wasted life and bloodshed, as characters you like hack each other to death for this or that necklace or bauble. There are similar stories in Norse mythology (there was a necklace of everlasting beauty or something that people fought over, and of course there is the Rhinegold), but I kind of wanted the good guys to quit killing each other after a while.

Reminded me too much of the Democratic primaries, I guess.

[JCMach1]

24. Doubleplus geeky.... I've read it many times

Your question is what the whole darn book is about...

look to the answers in this thread.

[TXlib]

27. Question about the wizards, then:

Galdalf, Saruman, and Sauron...

They're not human, right?

Where do they fit in? Are they immortal?

[ProfessorPlum]

31. They are Maiar (sp?)

kind of like angels to the Valar. Their mortality is not completely explained, but I'd be surprised if they could really be killed. Most likely, they are simply called back to Valinor after they die and returned to Middle Earth if necessary. Like Gandalf.

[Kellanved]

32. they're Maia

Like the Valar, but with less Power. Gandalf's real name is supposed to be Olórin.

[lazarus]

40. Yup

He was Olorin, and Saruman was Curunir. I can't recall offhand what Radagast's name in the West was.

Bonus points: The other two wizards were blue, and their names were Alatar and Pallando. :D

Curunir was a Maiar of Aule, just as Sauron and the Balrogs were before they turned evil. Olorin was, IIRC, also affiliated with Aule, but spent most of his time hanging around with Lorien and Mandos, being a generally nice guy. That helped him out a great deal in the end, too.

[MissMillie]

39. Once again, from the Day book

"Those whom common Men named Wizards were, as ancient tales reveal, chosen spirits from the Maiar of Valinor. Elves called them the Istari, and under that name the greater part of their deeds in Middle-earth is recorded.

"These Wizards came from the West to redress the imbalance that was made by the Dark Lord Sauron in Middle-earth. They came in secret int he form of Men, for it was doomed they could not come forth in the full force of their immortal Maiar spirits but were to be limited to the powers that they might acquire in Mortal Lands. They appeared as old Men dressed in long robes and, filled with the wisdom of the lands, they travelled. They were far famed as clever conjurers. It is said there were five who in the Third Age of Sun wandared the lands of Middle-earth, but the histories of the Westlands speak of three only: Saruman the White, Gandalf the Grey and Radagast the Brown."

[jpgray]

33. Yes, and I enjoyed it very much

But then I like stuff like the Prose Edda, Beowulf, and that sort of thing.

[TXlib]

37. How was Arwen giving up immortality by loving Aragorn?

[lazarus]

44. She's a half elf

All the half-elven are given a choice, to either be counted with Men or with Elves. She chose to be mortal, to spend her life with Aragorn.

FWIW, the three primary Elf-Man couplings all involved an elven woman; IIRC, they all chose to be mortal, since only Eru had the power to take away the gift of mortality from a Man. I can't remember which one it was, but one Man was counted with the elves. I'm fairly sure it's Tuor.

[TXlib]

41. Is there anything like Cliff's Notes that helps make sense of it

for those of us who have a hard time concentrating long enough to understand the Silmarillion?

Sounds like the book suggested by MissMillie might be a good one; any others?

[lazarus]

47. I'd stay away from the Day book, actually

most of the posters on rec.arts.books.tolkien find it seriously flawed. He doesn't indicate when he's just speculating and making statements unsupported by the text, etc.

For research, I like the Encyclopedia of Arda, at http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

As for Cliff's Notes, I'm not really sure. Best bet is to just ask. :-) But there's a decent history of the Elves, for instance, at the Encyclopedia. Just look up Elves.

[Character Assassin]

42. I loved it personally

And had this really cool copy of it, hardbound and with lots of fold-out maps, that I lent to a friend who is a LOTR fanatic. He in turn lent it to this 23 year old friend of ours who thought it was boring (he put down LOTR after about 200 pages because 'it had no character development') and he promptly THREW IT OUT.

I saw a copy a few weeks ago in a used/rare book store in Monterey for $110.

Grrrrr.....

[Beetwasher]

55. $110!!

No shit! I wonder if it's the same version I have...Mine has fold out maps and it's in good condition...Was it a first edition or something?

[TXlib]

56. When I lend things to friends

I expect to get them back, and replaced if lost or thrown out.

And if I catch somebody lending out something I lent to them, they never get something lent to them ever again.

Why the flying unforgivable fuck would this 23-year-old THROW THE BOOK OUT rather than return it?!

If that happened to me, not only would I demand immediate replacement of the item, I'd want to punch him squarely on the nose for being so disrespectful of other people's things.

[ZenLefty]

58. I've got a first edition hardcover

Found it in a used bookstore for about $15. The seller claims that he found it in the trash one day. It's not in the best of shape, but it still has all the fold-out maps and the original jacket. And it's not for sale. :P


(just kidding about the 'found it in the trash' part)

[ProfessorGAC]

59. Sounds Like A Serious Beating Is In Order

Why in the world would someone throw away someone else's book? Sounds like your "friend" needs a lesson in etiquette. That's a bummer.
The Professor

[TXlib]

60. Amen. I'll get the lead pipe. You hold the SOB down.

We'll teach him bareknuckled etiquette.

[VelmaD]

61. I read it...

I'm the kind of person who usually can't put a book down no matter how bad it is - I have to read through to the end. The Silmarillion is one of the few books I could only read in small bits. It was SO difficult to slog through and I got really tired of all the names starting with F. :eyes: