I'm eating toast to a faux conservationist. Steve Irwin.

[Deja Q]

The guy's as nutty as Michael Jackson; for both of them like to dangle their children at dangerous areas.

He dissed Kerry and supported Bush.

He goes out claiming to be pro-environment, but loves to touch crocodiles and ride big marine animals, who if they could speak English, would doubtlessly protest being poked and prodded.

(And does he have a string of failed marriages too?)

Indeed, the stingray obviously had had enough...

The guy toyed around with wild, dangerous animals and he got hoisted by his own petard. Was it worth the money and sophomoric fame?

He toys with politicians too, thinking he'll get their support. Newsflash, just because you're likeable doesn't mean you're going to get any favors. It might covertly work the other way around, or in reverse...


http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s982212.htm

(says Irwin) I think what's happened… here's what's happened – I love John Howard, and that's the way I am. So everyone thinks I'm, like, this die-hard Liberal supporter. I'm not! I'm not. I'm sitting on the fence, mate, I'm a conservationist. I can't afford to be one way or the other. I just have to run straight up the middle, mate. I have to get on with whoever's in power.

(snip)

But what's behind this – the motivating factor is the Labor guys like Kerry unfortunately they think that I'm some staunch Liberal supporter and there's some deals going on, well, there isn't. I mean, he's missed the mark.


http://www.markjuddery.com/html/comments_opinion/letter_to_steve.html

But then you made a terrible mistake -- and it wasn't the baby incident. Three months before that, you had extolled Prime Minister Howard to the skies, calling him "the greatest leader Australia has ever had and the greatest leader in the world". I don't begrudge you that opinion -- but Stevo, your career, your image has been based on your concern for the environment. This is not the place to list Howard's anti-environment policies, but let's just say that his Green credentials are sadly lacking. If you think he's wonderful (though you've never really explained why), perhaps you, of all people, should have kept it to yourself.

But did you? No, you buried yourself even deeper! When President Bush visited Australia, the two of you got on like a house of fire. He seemed to be a fan of yours. You can bet it was your friendly manner and your way with animals that has won him over. It certainly wasn't your concern for the environment, because based on his policies, he has little time for that.

So which pollies DON'T you like, Stevo? Ah yes... Dr Bob Brown! After he spoke out against your mate Bush, using the only opportunity available to him in Bush's presence, your comments were rather harsh. Steve, mate, he's a conservationist like yourself! Aren't you on the same side?

That's the question. You were a hero of the Green movement, above the crummy world of politics. Now they're not sure they can trust you. Even your conservative fans are disappointed. What appealed to them was your sincerity. Now that you've taken a political stance, you seem to be either ignorant or (even worse) dishonest.

When your movie was released, you said you and your wife Terri would never be film stars... (snip)

http://homepages.enterprise.net/cavan/ysac/irwin.shtml

(describing one of Steve's reality shows) (Steve Irwin) torments the wildlife in his ITV shows called "Deadly something something With Steve Irwin". We've had Deadly Spitting Cobras With Steve Irwin, where Steve goes out with only a rucksack and a camera for company, and provokes deadly snakes to spit at him. In Deadly African River With Steve Irwin, he rows up a river infested with crocodiles and hippos. He even keeps crocodiles in his back garden, along with a boa constrictor as a playmate for his daughter.

The guy wasn't all that great. What happened to all those shows made in the 70s and 80s of observing wildlife from afar and commenting in hushed tones? Well, that's not exciting. Dangling your good bits in front of an angry critter is, and that's what people want to see.

Steve's another hollywood-wannabe phony. I am sorry he had to die ahead of his time, but the stingray had a point. "Don't fuck with me, fella" seemed to be what it was trying to say.

Sorry to be harsh.

[ForrestGump]

1. I'm a trained conservation biologist, I don't like it when I see people

molesting wildlife (my bias is marine, and seeing things like people riding turtles or making pufferfishes puff up makes me see red), but I do believe that Steve Irwin made great contributions to conservation education, as well as some hands-on stuff. We need more people like him getting the word out -- it works, and it's just about all that'll work for many or most people who're not already especially interested in nature and the state of our natural systems. Steve Irwin might be worlds away from someone like me in terms of his academic background, but he knew the animals, the habitats, and the changes in and dangers to those species and their habitats, and he was no fool when it came to getting the word out in a manner that would stick. His children's shows, in particular, may have made a big difference.

You could, by the way, make just about every claim above (including those in the quoted sources) about Jacques Cousteau, who was very far from perfect. But old Jacques played a huge part in spreading an environmental ethic around the world and in inspiring people to explore and to care about the world -- and although he was never an academically-credentialed scientist or researcher, he also directly helped inspire me and the generation of marine scientists before me to do what we ended up doing.

There was an absolutely awful show on Discovery or Animal Planet called Extreme Contact that featured a longhaired f***wit named Manny Puig along with champion freediver Mehgan Heaney-Grier and some other f***knuckle named Moe, I think. That show was a piece of crap and I pray that it hasn't aired in years. Manny styles himself as a 'shark expert' but really he's just a spaced out Florida Keys dumbf*** who thinks he's Tarzan...he is one motherf***er I'd love to meet and just beat the everloving sh** out of before I even say hello...without immediate physical provocation, though his stupid TV ego trip was more than provocation enough. This Ted-Nugent-looking a**hole would harass animals of all kinds into doing something 'vicious' and then go on about how savage they were. When I saw him get 'attacked' by a placid nurse shark, sort of as likely as getting your intestines torn out by a Pomeranian on Valium (my guideline is that almost anyone who is bitten by a nurse shark -- clamped on, more accurately -- not only thoroughly deserved it but should probably be fed to a real shark), I just couldn't take it any more, especially when he played the wound up as a serious injury inflicted by a savage killer. What a f***ing f***wit f***head he is, and he deserves far more asterisks than that.

Now, the reason I bring up this execrable show, that I was ashamed occupied airwaves alongside that channel's more worthy output is that, outwardly, some might say that they were basically doing what Steve Irwin was doing on the other side of the world. If he was, I'd agree with the premise of your thread. The differences were huge, though. Steve promoted conservation, demystified so-called 'dangerous' animals, and squarely placed the blame for his mishaps where it belonged, on himself. He worked hard to promote conservation. He even dismissed the concept of 'sustainable use' as propaganda, a thing that academic ecologists are only lately recognizing. The ]Extreme Contact f***wits, by contrast, not only did not promote a conservation message (or any positive message) but played up, exaggerated, and outright fabricated the 'savagery' of the animals they molested just to boost their huge egos, Manny especially, and to provide for maximum posing value. They were self-aggrandizing thrillseekers and they were also outright liars. Their efforts were bereft of educational value -- they were negatively educational, in fact -- and the sensationalism was used only to magnify their (alleged) machismo and gonad size whereas Steve sensationalized (through hyperbolic language and enthusiasm, especially) to get across valuable points while holding viewers' interest (that latter feat not an easy task today). Steve deserves more recognition for his sincere conservation efforts -- if nothing else, for getting the message across far better than most trained conservation biologists ever could -- whereas everyone associated with Extreme Contact deserves to be taken to the nearest reef line, speargunned, and chopped up into chum for the tiger sharks -- how's that for your extreme f***ing contact, you wankers...

[BikeWriter]

3. Forrest, I don't always agree with you, but you are invited to a thread...

[ForrestGump]

5. Thanks

:hi:

[LostinVA]

4. Thank you for posting this, Forrest

Can you cross-post this in the GD thread?

[ForrestGump]

6. Thank you

How do I crosspost? Just copy and paste this?

[LostinVA]

9. Yeah -- just copy and paste

There are some people on DU tearing him apart...

[dropkickpa]

14. Hell yeah!!

NOWHERE else did you regularly hear about the horrible damage that non-native species are doing to their environments. It was one of his crusades. Shit, anyone who can look a some lumpy bumpy butt-ugly creature and extol on how beautiful and magnificent it is, getting OTHER people to believe it, is a good guy in my book. Everyone is all for saving the cute and cuddly panda, lion cub, etc. But what about the warthog? All animals deserve a chance, not just the pretty ones.

My 5 year old daughter is afraid of 1 animal type. Bees and their stinging ilk, ue in part to the fact that I am allegic and very wary of them. She avoids them like the plague. But, because she does love Steve Irwin, she has no fear of the "ugly" creatures. In fact, after it rains, we regularly have to go on worm rescue missions to get the worms off the sidewalks where they get crushed and onto the grass or under a bush, where they'll be safe. In part because of his engaging nature and boundless enthusiasm, she has quite a string conservationist streak in her. She wants to save ALL of the animals, not just the photogenic ones. Her greatest nature find this year was a cicada shell. She carried that damn thing around for weeks (terrorizing the dog who, strangely, was PETRIFIED of it) showing it to anyone she met. Usually she got sreams, but, here and there, people would actually take a close look and see just how cool that thing was. Unfortunately, the dog, in a fit of terror, finally ate the damn thing after barking at it on the table for an hour one day.

[idgiehkt]

15. that's right, I forgot how Terri specialized

in something having to do with feral cats and I remember they did a show where there were some that were killing native species of baby birds in the wild and I remember him taking on some kind of feral cat...I've had to deal with these working for veterinarians and I think they are about the worst creature to encounter.

[petronius]

22. Nice post! Off topic, could you expand on your comment about

sustainable use being "propaganda"? Do you mean that the concept doesn't make sense bio-/ecologically, or that people are unlikely to implement it properly?

[ForrestGump]

23. To me, it's always seemed (I'm not up on the debates on this point, so

this is just my old opinion) that it's more the latter...it's defined wrongly some of the time and just used as green wallpaper the rest of the time. Same with protected areas -- so very often absolutely meaningless, biologically, but they make for good PR and all of that. And, honestly, that's all some peopel care about. The illusion of sustainability and effective environmental stewardship. Same with ecotourism, to a great extent. These valid concepts all became trendy catchphrases, and that's where they began to be largely ineffective as real environmental management tools.

Some people think the way to solve it all is to throw out the whole program, but there is validity to each concept...it just needs to be implemented, applied, and evaluated correctly. Unfortunately, there's educated guesswork involved because we really do know so little about some of the natural systems most at risk. But doing nothing is not an option and piling all the problems behind a screen of trendy catchphrases is just as bad.

Plenty of old cultures still living off the land prove that sustainable use is feasible, but for true sustainable development it is possible that we might well sometimes find ourselves not being so readily able to enjoy all of the material perks we do now. The term "sustainability" and its derivations always irked me a little, anyway, because people tended to bandy it about as if it were a brand new concept they'd just discovered when some of the best extant examples around -- such as the traditional land-tenure systems of Melanesian islands -- were ones that'd been in place for thousands of years. All ecologists discovered was a new, trendy slogan that quickly became meaningless (to an extent).

[petronius]

26. Thanks for a very informative post!

I know exactly what you mean - I can think of plenty of examples around here where a development was deemed "sustainable" when even the most casual examination showed it was nothing of the sort. You're right that the jargon provides a smoke-screen - allowing people to cling to their illusions, and, when things fall apart, giving an opportunity to say "well, we did all we could - might as well pave the rest of it."

I'll bet that one big mental readjustment that Americans will have to make in our lifetimes is the realization that we can live sustainably, or we (some of us, anyway) can live in the way we've become accustomed to, but we can't all do both...

[blondeatlast]

25. BRAVO! And he inspired millions of kids like my son.

My kid is seriously interested in conservation and science as a whole, largely thanks to Mr. Irwin.

Imagine all the similar 9 year olds he had that effect on, and tell me he didn't have a positive impact. Maybe we don't see it NOW, but my son wants to work with wildlife--someone tell me that isn't a worthy goal, and he surely didn't get it from his very urban parents.

Good on ya again, Mr. Irwin--and you too, FG.

[astral]

32. he lived his passsion and made a difference

he wasn't perfect; he wasn't a god; he rubbed some people the wrong way -- so he was human.

He probably made a bigger mark on the world of humanity than any of those complaining about him will ever make.

I was barely familiar with who he was as I do not have television, but I see he was loved by many.

Show him some respect on this tragic day like you would any clay-footed human being you knew personally that may have died, and what you'd want for yourself.

(I'm not speaking at any one person here, just a general opinion.)

[TimeChaser]

2. I wouldn't trust that last source

"He even keeps crocodiles in his back garden, along with a boa constrictor as a playmate for his daughter."

Dude, the guy lived and worked at Australia zoo.

[LostinVA]

7. Exactly -- lots of weird dislike and even hate for Irwin on here today

I'm glad that ForrestGump posted -- it's what I've always thought about Steve-O, and I'm glad that my beliefs are reflected by a real biologist.

My SO has a Marine Biology background, and always admired Steve for his educational and conservation efforts. His Croc Diary shows were fantastic -- I loved seeing how a real Zoo runs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. People often show "weird dislike and even hate" for all sorts of weird

things on here. It's amazing sometimes.

[Joe Fields]

10. I really am stunned that anyone could say anything bad about

Steve Irwin.

[Midlodemocrat]

11. Head over to GD and read those threads. Frickin' amazing.

[idgiehkt]

17. liberal snark is so tiresome sometimes n/t

[Haole Girl]

24. Me too

It's amazing.

[Critters2]

35. Shouldn't this have been posted in GD?

There are plenty of "I hate the Croc Hunter" threads there. Why drag these bad vibes over here?

[northzax]

40. actually, he OWNED the zoo

inherited it from his parents. and yes, he kept Crocs. This is what he thought of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVEVUxyxBJc

geez, what a schmuck.

[Critters2]

49. What a great heart

A schmuck, otoh, would be someone who calls a true animal lover a "schmuck".

Schmuck.

[northzax]

50. or perhaps

a schmuck is someone who can't be bothered to find sarcasm without the aid of a 2x4 upside the head? schmuck. :)

[Critters2]

53. Not a definition I'm familiar with, but wholly plausible

:)

[datasuspect]

12. this post does not exhibit the appropriate maudlin overtones

which are requisite in light of such tragedy.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

16. everyone has value

for someone to express their opinion is not an adequate enough excuse to savage another person (someone with whom you CAN actually communicate as opposed to a person you have never met and never knew).

but man, that was pretty harsh.

i guess i'm trying to balance these two things in my mind: you show genuine care and affection for a celebrity you don't know and venomous disregard for an actual person you can reach here.

how do you reconcile these two things? seems out of whack to me.

[L A Woman]

18. The original poster is the one showing venomous disregard...

I was merely pointing that out. I don't know the OP any more than I knew Steve Irwin. But I know which one has contributed the most to the world.

[datasuspect]

19. i'm gonna leave this alone

good luck.

[In_The_Wind]

20. The animals may be happier now that he's gone

But his loved ones will miss him.
This is a double edged sword, it cuts no matter which way it goes.

[LostinVA]

21. I think the animals lost a great friend and protector today

Rest in peace, Steve-O. I hope you're playing with Sui right now, and watching Mary cavort in a pool of water....

[In_The_Wind]

27. At least there won't be anymore harassment of mother bears & cubs.

[LostinVA]

28. ???

[In_The_Wind]

30. my mistake, sorry

I'm a bit under the weather at the moment and I misread an earlier post on another thread. I found my error a moment ago while doing a search for the post.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

29. I think you're referring to the behavior of an anti-Corwin poster

in GD. Unless he died since this morning, he may potentially be harassing a mother bear and cubs somewhere.

[In_The_Wind]

31. yep, I'm a bit out of it at the moment . Yes I did confuse the information

never mind :blush:

[Common Sense Party]

33. Oh, he dissed Kerry??? Well, then, he DESERVED to die!

ANYONE who badmouths progressives should get a stinger in the heart. Good riddance.









:sarcasm:

[Marie26]

34. He's not talking about John Kerry!

Here's the part of the interview that you did not post:

"The Labor Party's Agriculture Spokesman Kerry O'Brien is now asking whether the deal prompted Steve Irwin's recent declaration that John Howard was the greatest leader Australia had ever had."

Steve Irwin was talking about the Australian Ag. Spokesman Kerry O'Brien, not the American Sen. John Kerry. That should be clear to anyone who actually read the interview. Now that I've corrected you, I'm hoping that people won't be flinging around the false charge that he "dissed John Kerry" anymore. But that's probably to much to hope for, since people seem to feel the need to slander this man for some reason.

[Critters2]

37. This needs to be posted in GD

Where there's lots of that "He dissed Kerry" crap being flung around.

[Marie26]

48. Will do

I just posted it as a reply in a couple GD threads. Feel free to toss up the actual quotes to anyone who tries to bring up that false charge again - I think a lot of them actually got it from this thread. I really don't understand why people have such a need to hate the guy. I really liked Irwin for his enthusiasm & genuine love of animals, and was very sorry to hear of his death.

[ComerPerro]

38. thank you

[Bridget Burke]

42. Facts are SO inconvenient. n/t

[Shell Beau]

36. He was an entertainer, but he was also about

conserving wildlife and brought it to the attention of millions. Leave well enough alone. Who cares where he stood politically anyway? He is dead now. And he died doing what he loved. Whether or not he bothered wildlife, he also protected it and taught a lot of people about the beauty of it. And what is wrong with some people. The man died yesterday. :wtf: Why don't we just find anything we can to hate about him? :sarcasm:

[rene moon]

39. Uh, if you read correctly, you would have found that

Irwin was talking about the Australian Ag. Spokesman Kerry O'Brien, not Sen. John Kerry during that interview. And even if he was, WHO CARES???? Irwin is not an American!

Kerry was a bad candidate anyway.

Irwin did a hell of a lot for conservation and he loved his family. It is unfortunate that he passed away. He didnt provoke the Ray, he swam over it and startled the Ray. It got him in the end. It's a very sad way to go.

Stop being so bitter. Damn, DU is sucking more these days.

[Xithras]

41. Those hushed shows DIDN'T WORK

Here's the deal. Everybody can agree that cute, cuddly looking animals like kangaroo, koala, and panda need to be saved because they're CUTE. We like them, and so place a certain intrinsic value in them. Like it or not, that's how the human mind works.

But how do you convince somebody of the intrinsic value of a 15 foot man eating crocodile? A lethally venomous snake? A predatory shark? How about a poisonous scorpion? Irwin recognized that these animals deserved the same respect and treatments as cuddly koala's, but that they weren't getting it because they were perceived as "monsters". A dead crocodile was seen as a good thing, and nobody questions the eradication of a Mamba den. Irwin realized that the ONLY way these animals would be protected was to get people to care about them. He wanted to show people that these animals were just animals, like any other, and that they deserved protection just like any other.

The problem was that the "hushed nature shows" are only watched by nature lovers, who were generally already on his side. He needed to appeal to a wider audience if he wanted to start changing minds. Were his methods always the best? Not at all, but it's indisputable that his methods got people to WATCH THE SHOW. Once they started watching, the battle was 90% over. He never showed fear of the animals, never injured them, and always focused on educating the viewers about the life and habits of the animal, its importance to the ecosystem, and how the image of the vicious beast was incorrect. He changed hearts and minds around the world, and most importantly he removed the fear and instilled respect for dangerous wildlife in an entire generation of children. Children who respect animals are FAR more likely to grow into adults who work on and support efforts to protect them. Irwin wasn't worried about the opinions of the 50 year old naturalists, he was more interested in maintaining the interest and opening the mind of the 5 year old nature lover. Irwin's shows caught the imagination, and opened the minds, of far more children than Wild Kingdom ever did.

Nobody can seriously doubt the value of that contribution. Irwin will be missed.

[ComerPerro]

43. very good points

no one watched or cared about the hushed shows.

They didn't generate any excitement.

And, you are exactly right about how these shows regarded predators and poisonous animals as horrible monsters.

[LSK]

56. you nailed it

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Hmm.

Stuck your foot in your mouth yesterday, trying to say it tastes good today.

"The guy's as nutty as Michael Jackson"

Horsehit. Michael Jackson's mentally ill. Steve Irwin worked with animals, may have looked crazy to people who don't like animals.

"dangle their children at dangerous areas"

Horseshit. Irwin's kid was never in any danger.

"He goes out claiming to be pro-environment, but loves to touch crocodiles and ride big marine animals, who if they could speak English, would doubtlessly protest being poked and prodded."

Aside from apparently being suckered by the photoshop of Irwin riding a whale, are you telling me you've never gone out into the wild and picked up a frog or a snake or a bug in order to exam it? If you have, then you'd be a hypocrite. If you haven't, then shame on you for not going outside and learning.

"(And does he have a string of failed marriages too?) "

I don't know. Does he have a reputation for sticking his nose in other people's business?

"He dissed Kerry and supported Bush."

Well holee shit. An Australian guy from Australia said something about American politics. La dee fucking da. Hmm, I wonder what Charo's opinion on a flat tax is. Gosh!

"Indeed, the stingray obviously had had enough..."

Ordinarily the sting ray would have stung him. In a freak accident, the stinger hit his heart, which is what killed him. That's like saying trees were out to get Sonny Bono.

"Steve's another hollywood-wannabe phony."

Actually, no. He was the real deal. A talented guy who worked with animals, whom somebody had the bright idea to give a show. And it was a hit because he was genuinely entertaining and likeable.

Now, back to you. You started some shit yesterday about how we're not supposed to feel sorry for his family because he's rich. Never mind that he made himself rich with his own talent. Nevermind you've got this odd fixation with money, as if money is supposed to make up to the family for their loss. You've been rightfully criticized for your crap and now you're trying to defend the indefensible. Here's an idea, you could admit you were wrong. Or you can just shutup.

[Shell Beau]

45. I missed yesterday's stuff, but

thank you!! Well said.

[northzax]

54. re: string of failed marriages?

yes, he has one failed marriage, after 17 years, his wife is a widow.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

55. Actually, he didn't support Bush or diss Kerry.

He was referring to Kerry O'Brian, an Australian politician. As for supporting Bush, he said he got invited to the Bush BBQ because Bush was a fan of his and invited him. It seemed to have more to do with Bush liking his TV show, than anything to do with Bush's politics. I had posted the link to the actual interview in a GD thread, but I'm too lazy to go find it now. I think it's in the Steve Irwin quotes thread.

[El Fuego]

46. The stingray had a POINT?

Yeah, I guess he did! :rofl:

[LSK]

47. have you EVER watched his show???????????

Ive seen you trashing Irwin all over DU? Im am going to guess you NEVER WATCHED HIM.

[LostinVA]

52. That's what I'm betting

Or watched ONCE, and didn't know anything about the man.

[nini]

51. Do you feel better now by posting this?

welcome to my ignore list. :puke:

[Call Me Wesley]

57. Locking.

Thread has run its course and became a flamewar.

Call Me Wesley
DU Moderator